Sexy Poses!: An In-Depth Move Analysis for Zelda - Move #18-20, 22 Up/Down B, Dash A

[KuroganeHammer]

Yes, we'd love to work on a guide together.

AL and I aren't allowed input though because we're bad.

Edit: Wait no, no one else is either because only you and Fuujin are the only people who don't grossly exaggerate everything and blah blah blah.

No offence to you though. You're heaps kewl. <3

 

[Alacion]

Lol... In all seriousness, I think you're all pretty good. We all have different playstyles, experiences, and opinions so just because you think differently than Fuujin doesn't mean you are a bad player.

I don't over exaggerate because I think that way in general. (You'll always exceed your expectations ) I'd appreciate all the help I can get despite that there are opinions here (not yours) that I strongly disagree with.

I'll go ahead and make the thread now.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So yeah... does everybody want to work on a guide together because I can't really do it alone. Or... AL could always take over.

I'll gladly take over it'll be a good way to kill time. If I take over I'd like people to PM things their in put and i'll get something together.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I'm always tossing out grabs w/ Zelda. sometimes i get people, sometimes i don't. but when i do thats free grab damage and setup potential.

So yeah... does everybody want to work on a guide together because I can't really do it alone. Or... AL could always take over.

I'll write the summaries for moves in this thread and send them to you when its time to put them in. so you can count on my help

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I'll try and help out in my free time (if I ever have any this month!)

Someone should PM Riot, DM, and Ninjalink to see if they'll contribute.

 

[MechaWave]

I'll work on parts of it, since I know some hacking material that can benefit the guide.

I will also work on Zelda's KO moves. There's interesting properties to them (usmash for one thing). Among other things...

 

[Fuujin]

And I said I don't grab much. Considering our f-smash is slower than our grab, and it's one of Zelda's better tools...

It's defs slow, but don't immediately assume people are bad because they get grabbed by Zelda.

Jab > grab is legit imo



Edit: Gawd, why is that pissing me off so much?

Dude, if you're saying that because I landed a GRAB with Zelda that everyone must automatically be bad, holy crap if Zelda ACTUALLY wins a match!

You win matches with Zelda right? >_____>

Edit:

Assuming frame data means everything to you, Zelda's grab comes out on frame 11 (dash grab ofc).

ASSUMING that it's not possible to land anything over 11 frames means that the following moves are now defunct:
Jab
Ftilt
F-smash
U-air
D-air
Nayru's
Farore's
Din's
Ledge attacks
Get up attacks


Right? I dunno.

Obviously this leaves up-smash, dtilt and d-smash as her only decent options ever.

Good to know.

Edit: I think I'll main Wolf.

I'm saying whatever players youre playing are bad because if Zelda is able to grab THROUGH Marth's F-air then they have very, very bad spacing and timing.

AL could always take over.

...No offense, but he really doesn't know what hes talking about from viewing his post in the match up thread.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm saying whatever players youre playing are bad because if Zelda is able to grab THROUGH Marth's F-air then they have very, very bad spacing and timing..

Once again your arrogance is coming out brilliantly. Without knowing who's Aero has played or what has happened during the match you're able to comment on the level of the Marth. No one plays perfectly and Marth's do miss space their Fairs. All Aero suggested was that he'd sometimes grabs Marth when they're retreating with fairs. Which tells me 1 the Marth (as Marth mains tend to believe) felt they had virtual impunity while attacking and messed up their spacing. I also didn't here aero say that every time a Marth fair's he grabs them.

...No offense, but he really doesn't know what hes talking about from viewing his post in the match up thread

I don't know what I'm talking about because I view things differently than you ? w.e man .

 

[Fuujin]

Once again your arrogance is coming out brilliantly. Without knowing who's Aero has played or what has happened during the match you're able to comment on the level of the Marth. No one plays perfectly and Marth's do miss space their Fairs. All Aero suggested was that he'd sometimes grabs Marth when they're retreating with fairs. Which tells me 1 the Marth (as Marth mains tend to believe) felt they had virtual impunity while attacking and messed up their spacing. I also didn't here aero say that every time a Marth fair's he grabs them.

Marth would have to really, really. really be off on his spacing AND timing for Zelda to grab Marth through his F air.
It shouldn't happen, like at all.
Marth's F air out ranges her grab range and he'd have to have horrible spacing to be close enough to get grabbed by her out of it.
His f air comes out frame, Zelda grab is 3 times as slow.

I don't know what I'm talking about because I view things differently than you ? w.e man .

If you don't see how ZSS and Lucario beat Zelda, then no you do not know what you're talking about.
It's not a matter of agreeing with me or not.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Marth would have to really, really. really be off on his spacing AND timing for Zelda to grab Marth through his F air.
It shouldn't happen, like at all.
Marth's F air out ranges her grab range and he'd have to have horrible spacing to be close enough to get grabbed by her out of it.
His f air comes out frame, Zelda grab is 3 times as slow.

I know the frame data on all of Marth's moves buddy and I know what you're saying however, what aero is suggesting and what you're talking about isn't the same thing.

If you don't see how ZSS and Lucario beat Zelda, then no you do not know what you're talking about.
It's not a matter of agreeing with me or not.

I don't see it and no one has much to say other than Zelda's low tier juggle off screen ****. blah blah blah we know.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm saying whatever players youre playing are bad because if Zelda is able to grab THROUGH Marth's F-air then they have very, very bad spacing and timing.

By this logic, Zelda should never win a match because no one should ever be in that range of Zelda.

But guess what?

It happens.

Even NickRiddle said it in the matchup thread that he hits people with ZSS's dsmash all the time, and it's almost twice as long with probably the same sized hitbox.

Also it was a retreating fair that he whiffed and I got him with a dash grab.

 

[Fuujin]

By this logic, Zelda should never win a match because no one should ever be in that range of Zelda.

Yes that's exactly what I was implying.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well unfortunately that isn't the reality.

People make mistakes.

imo, you should try grabbing some time during friendlies or something.

You know; actually try it? lol

 

[MechaWave]

Dthrow -> (if not DI'd away) Usmash -> Nair.

If the opponent is smart enough to DI away (which will most likely be the case) you're sort of outta luck from my testing results.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I wonder what kind of followups we can get on fat characters like Dedede from dthrow.

Does the move leave us in a frame advantage? I doubt it since this isn't Melee, but tech chasing is still quite fun imo.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I wonder what kind of followups we can get on fat characters like Dedede from dthrow.

Does the move leave us in a frame advantage? I doubt it since this isn't Melee, but tech chasing is still quite fun imo.

It doesn't matter if they're big or small if they DI away Zelda won't have any follows up. if they don't DI they Zelda will basically have w/e Usmash or bair. If you're back is to a wall (really rare) Zelda can regrab unless I'm mistaken and has the same follow ups. They can tech the wall after the dthrow but you're still in good enough position to punish.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

since we are starting to talk about Dthrow and setups maybe we should move onto that move next?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

since we are starting to talk about Dthrow and setups maybe we should move onto that move next?

I'm not the one in control.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I'm not the one in control.

well i was asking incase someone else wanted to suggest a different move to do. or i can do like the matchup thread and change it bi/weekly or something

 

[MechaWave]

My testing of Zelda's dthrow shows these follow-ups. If the opponent DI's away from the move, Zelda cannot use any follow-ups, so reading is key.

This was tested with no DI, so if the opponent DI's upwards or backwards Zelda still has a follow-up advantage. Note that dthrow makes the opponent go behind her.

You can use Jab or Dtilt as a way to grab your opponent.

Dthrow → (buffer) Dash → Usmash → (buffer) Nair [36%-38% fresh, all hits connect]
*This will probably be your most used setup because of the range of Usmash/Nair will at least hit the opponent regardless of the DI.

Dthrow → (buffer) Walk → (buffer) Upward Ftilt → Usmash/Nair/Uair
Dthrow → (buffer) Walk/Dash → Fsmash
Dthrow → (buffer) Fair
Dthrow → Dash attack → Filt → Usmash/Nair

Dthrow → (DI'd up or no DI) Dash attack (sweet) → Usmash/Nair/Uair [50% fresh, all hits connect (with Usmash of choice)]
*This is the most damaging follow-up if you don't use Uair. It's also great for setting up some dtilts. That's a potential 0-70%+ right there!

Dthrow → (DI'd up or no DI) Dash attack (sour) (x1 or x2) → Ftilt → Usmash → Nair
Dthrow → (DI'd behind) (buffer) Bair or Ftilt

Against a Wall (like Rainbow Cruise)
Dthrow → Usmash → Nair → Usmash/Dsmash/Fair/Bair
Dthrow → Pivot → Pummel (x1) → Dthrow → Pummel (x1) → Nair
Dthrow → Dthrow → (buffer) Bair
Dthrow → (if DI'd up/behind) Fair/Bair/Nair
Dthrow → (if DI'd up/behind) Dsmash → Din's Fire

Zelda can even chain some characters with Dthrow.

Dthrow → (buffered) Pivot Dash Grab → Dthrow → whatever move
Still note if the opponent DI's away Zelda cannot chain.

There's many, many others because Zelda can take advantage. These follow-ups work best <15%. At higher percentages, you can use Dthrow as a way to land a KO move or just to make it easier for you to land something (the higher the percent the farther the opponent launches.)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

My testing of Zelda's dthrow shows up these follow-ups. If the opponent DI's away from the move, Zelda cannot use any follow-ups.

This was tested with no DI, so if the opponent DI's upwards or backwards Zelda does have a follow-up advantage. Note that dthrow makes the opponent go behind her.

You can use Jab or Dtilt as a way to grab your opponent.

Dthrow → (buffer) Dash → Usmash → (buffer) Nair [36%-38% fresh, all hits connect]
*This will probably be your most used setup because of the range of Usmash/Nair will at least hit the opponent regardless of the DI.

Dthrow → (buffer) Walk → (buffer) Upward Ftilt → Usmash/Nair/Uair
Dthrow → (buffer) Walk/Dash → Fsmash
Dthrow → (buffer) Fair
Dthrow → Dash attack → Filt → Usmash/Nair
Dthrow → (DI'd up or no DI) Dash attack (sweet) → Usmash/Nair/Uair [50% fresh, all hits connect (with Usmash of choice)]
Dthrow → (DI'd up or no DI) Dash attack (sour) → Filt → Usmash/Nair
Dthrow → (DI'd behind) (buffer) Bair or Ftilt

Against a Wall (like Rainbow Cruise)
Dthrow → Usmash → Nair → Usmash/Dsmash/Fair/Bair
Dthrow → Pivot → Pummel (x1) → Dthrow → Pummel (x2) → Nair
Dthrow → Dthrow → (buffer) Bair
Dthrow → (if DI'd up/behind) Fair/Bair/Nair
Dthrow → (if DI'd up/behind) Dsmash → Din's Fire

If the opponent DI's away, Zelda can still use a buffered dash attack. Zelda can even chain some characters (I will test the characters later) with Dthrow.

Dthrow → (buffered) Pivot Dash Grab → Dthrow → whatever move
Still note if the opponent DI's away Zelda cannot chain.

There's many, many others because Zelda can take advantage. Use Dthrow if you're opponent is <10% to potentially get your opponent up to 40%. Read your opponent's DI; sometimes your opponent won't DI from Dthrow(usually at low %s) to trick you.

Good stuff man.

 

[MechaWave]

Good stuff man.

Thank you. Hopefully my findings will make dthrow more useful, as it's one of my favorite moves. :3

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Thank you. Hopefully my findings will make dthrow more useful, as it's one of my favorite moves. :3

Did you try against a wall dthrow > jab > regrab (or more jabs).

 

[MechaWave]

Did you try against a wall dthrow > jab > regrab (or more jabs).

It's very situational, even on places like Pokemon Stadium 1 because of the fact your opponent WILL DI in walls like that and because her dthrow will make most characters go on higher platforms.

It doesn't work on RC because it takes her too long to turn around to keep continuing the chain, and 2 walls are needed regardless. Consecutive jabs won't work either because of the upwards knockback and SDI.

 

[Kataefi]

^and if you're in a situation to jab, you might as well dtilt and lock them until they SDI through you.

mechawave how are you testing everything?

 

[MechaWave]

I tested on Final Destination in Training Mode (so everything was fresh) for the non-wall follow-ups with Mario. The CPU was level 1 but I set the CPU's action to Control to ensure no DI was used. For the DI follow-ups I obviously used a second controller and held the control stick in the specified direction, but no momentum cancelling was used.

I used Rainbow Cruise (which was tedious) for the wall follow-ups and PS1 for the jab confirmations (which I was curious about as well.)

I further tested with some other characters (such as Wario, Dedede, Luigi, Diddy Kong, etc.) to ensure these could be used. I used the second controller and set its Turbo setting to A to find out if the character could break free but DI was not used. P2 could not break free in this situation. This was in Training Mode and regular VS. mode with default settings on.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I tested on Final Destination in Training Mode (so everything was fresh) for the non-wall follow-ups with Mario. The CPU was level 1 but I set the CPU's action to Control to ensure no DI was used. For the DI follow-ups I obviously used a second controller and held the control stick in the specified direction, but no momentum cancelling was used.

I used Rainbow Cruise (which was tedious) for the wall follow-ups and PS1 for the jab confirmations (which I was curious about as well.)

use snake's stage to test dthrow wall stuff.

It's very situational, even on places like Pokemon Stadium 1 because of the fact your opponent WILL DI in walls like that and because her dthrow will make most characters go on higher platforms.

It doesn't work on RC because it takes her too long to turn around to keep continuing the chain, and 2 walls are needed regardless. Consecutive jabs won't work either because of the upwards knockback and SDI.

Higher platforms ? I'm assuming you're talking about RC with this? I wasn't asking for D throw regrabs just one regrab off a dthrow.

 

[MechaWave]

use snake's stage to test dthrow wall stuff.

I did this with Mario.

Higher platforms ? I'm assuming you're talking about RC with this? I wasn't asking for D throw regrabs just one regrab off a dthrow.

I don't see why you can't actually test this but I did anyway. It still doesn't work, and as Kataefi stated, why not just use dtilt instead?

Probably already known, but I should just say at higher %s you can still use an advantageous followup. A Dthrow -> Dash attack is not out-of-the-question around 70%.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I did this with Mario.


I don't see why you can't actually test this but I did anyway. It still doesn't work, and as Kataefi stated, why not just use dtilt instead?

Probably already known, but I should just say at higher %s you can still use an advantageous followup. A Dthrow -> Dash attack is not out-of-the-question around 70%.

Because you were testing it and I figured why not get my questions answered while you're testing stuff.

 

[MechaWave]

Because you were testing it and I figured why not get my questions answered while you're testing stuff.

True, true. I hope you didn't take my comment as rude because it wasn't supposed to. xD

In conclusion that's all I can really say about dthrow, other than the fact it can spike. I give it a 4/5 because of the mindgames you can play with it and all of Zelda's follow-ups. I don't plan on further testing it unless anyone has additional questions.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

nice stuff Mecha, really nice :D

 

[AyatoK26]

Good stuff Mech.

Just to add on,

Although most people would DI away, that doesn't mean that it ends there. This is where tech chasing/mind games come into play.

After DI'ing away, your opponent has several options: AD away from you, AD towards you, attack you, or jump (immediate AD or not). (All assumed from low-mid %'s)

AD away: A pretty good option for your opponent due to our substandard ground speed. At low %'s, however, even a dash regrab is possible. Only downside is if they reach the ground and spotdodge before your grab comes out only to punish our bad ending lag. But most people wouldn't spotdodge Zelda due to her many multi-hit moves.

AD towards you: Same as AD'ing away from you, only with more options: pretty much most, if not all, of our grounded moveset applies here. Hell, even a pivot grab is possible if their AD is that good.

Attack you: By far the most used option your opponent would do, in my experience at least. If they have a disjointed b-air/n-air (Marth and Wolf comes to mind), Powershielding is a possiblity, but don't count on it work if they used the move in a retreating fashion.

Jump (No AD): I don't know much about this but being able to land an U-air based on where they're gonna be during their jump. Very unlikely for your opponent to pick this option.

Jump (Immediate AD soon afterwards): Good luck with that (but seriously, I don't think we have anything for this option).

So for the most part, all of this depends on how well you know your opponent. These weren't tested because what you do depends on your opponent's reaction.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Frame advantage/dis-advantage?

Did you get numbers? :O

 

[MechaWave]

I will find out information like that when I have the time. Weekend's over, unfortunately.

Though I believe she does not have a frame advantage.

 

[AyatoK26]

I didn't test these because I believe nothing's guaranteed when your opponent DI's away. This are just suggestions to how to handle each situation.

Though I'd lend a helping hand around here. :D

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Good stuff Mech.

Just to add on,

Although most people would DI away, that doesn't mean that it ends there. This is where tech chasing/mind games come into play.

After DI'ing away, your opponent has several options: AD away from you, AD towards you, attack you, or jump (immediate AD or not). (All assumed from low-mid %'s)

AD away: A pretty good option for your opponent due to our substandard ground speed. At low %'s, however, even a dash regrab is possible. Only downside is if they reach the ground and spotdodge before your grab comes out only to punish our bad ending lag. But most people wouldn't spotdodge Zelda due to her many multi-hit moves.

AD towards you: Same as AD'ing away from you, only with more options: pretty much most, if not all, of our grounded moveset applies here. Hell, even a pivot grab is possible if their AD is that good.

Attack you: By far the most used option your opponent would do, in my experience at least. If they have a disjointed b-air/n-air (Marth and Wolf comes to mind), Powershielding is a possiblity, but don't count on it work if they used the move in a retreating fashion.

Jump (No AD): I don't know much about this but being able to land an U-air based on where they're gonna be during their jump. Very unlikely for your opponent to pick this option.

Jump (Immediate AD soon afterwards): Good luck with that (but seriously, I don't think we have anything for this option).

So for the most part, all of this depends on how well you know your opponent. These weren't tested because what you do depends on your opponent's reaction.

Just to add to this you can shield their attack and get a regrab. You can walk after them and attempt fsmash or dash usmash. Depending on what the opponent did you should catch them. Also I'd like to point out that if they jump you can try and cover their landing.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda's throws may be okay . . . but that grab.... Why the hell does she have to Johnny-Bravo dance just to get a hold of somebody... It makes an ok taunt though, just be sure to yell "HOO-HAH!"

 

[KuroganeHammer]

lawl ^

It's actually more distinguishable than her taunts.

 

[MechaWave]

I didn't test these because I believe nothing's guaranteed when your opponent DI's away. This are just suggestions to how to handle each situation.

Though I'd lend a helping hand around here. :D

Well I finally got a human player to test it on, and it seems like nothing can be done if the opponent DI's away (the right way). Though this doesn't mean it's useless, it's similar to the mindgames you can play with Snake's dthrow.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

lawl ^

It's actually more distinguishable than her taunts.

you laugh, but I have won matches due to the hilarity of using that as a taunt