Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

Happy New Year.

Also read the comments as they are hilarious.

Edit: Wait one more especially since it has "Let's Dance" in it

 

[DariusM27]

Marth beats Diddy in the MU. ZeRo said so, so it must be true :/

 

[Shaya]

Marth is mid-range dominant in footsies.
Diddy is poor at mid range footsies, he only has walling tools in that department (I mean, Diddy's could start using dash attack or something :O)

Marth v Diddy match up in brawl bounced between each side's advantage and even constantly in a cycle throughout it's life time.
Current Diddy is most definitely worse than his Brawl edition in most facets, current Marth has arguably a lot of tools/balance points that are superior to his Brawl self (to be fair, a lot of it is more so engine stuff)

I'd prefer to say evenish, for now.

 

[DariusM27]

Diddy has the best neutral in the game. Marth's neutral is pretty crap, he is forced to chase opponents often (though not all the time, especially with the current bait-heavy Mkleo meta). Diddy was considered Marth's worst MU in the Marth meta until MkLeo got his one set win over ZeRo. Then a week later his Marth got bopped by Zinoto.
The MU is in Diddy's favor, because Diddy necessarily controls the pace and movement of the match using Monkey Flip and Banana.

 

[JayE]

I do too think Diddy wins the matchup or at least goes even with Marth. Its actually pretty hard to get past Diddy's movement and banana. But offstage Marth wins and can punish Diddy's recovery pretty well

 

[Vipermoon]

I like to think that Leo is a Smash God and Mr. E is oddly extremely good at this MU ever since he beat Mew2king near game release. Because I don't like to say Diddy is even. When I watch other Marth vs. Diddy and when I play Marth vs. Diddy I guess you can say that I experience reality. Bananas and especially Monkey Flip (and arguably F-Air because of its burst range and Marth is tall) are too good against Marth. He doesn't have the active frames or the correct character height to properly deal with Monkey Flip (and the others mentioned) without a read (with a read it's still difficult). So either the first sentence is the case or the top level matchup is different than every other level.

Speaking of top level vs. others... Marth is very fundamentals-based so this factor probably changes his MUs more than most characters. Leo shows us that Marth's matchup spread is amazing at the top level while it definitely looks iffy with some characters at less than top level.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I guess some Diddys are just too used to wall with Fair/Bair (I mean, we can't blame them when those two moves alone shut down so many characters) and then they face Marth and they can't brainlessly wall them anymore and they hit a mental block.

Not like I can relate because I feel my Marth walling just can't get through Shulk... not at all....


Point being, Marth having to approach and land against a Diddy just feels horrible.

 

[Bowserboy3]

In my eyes, the Diddy MU isn't a straight up loss for Marth. As others have said above, actually having tools to make Diddy rethink some of his approaches (his Fair/Bair) works wonders. Yes, you can say Diddy has banana, but simply having the banana doesn't invalidate all of Marth's strong points in the MU. It's still the same for (almost) every other character.

Diddy might control the pace of the game with banana, especially when he's in the lead, but are we forgetting Marth can do much the same thing without a banana while he has the lead? Marth doesn't have to commit to a whole deal while he's winning, at all.

I too, prefer to call it even. FG/Low level might be a tough MU, but Mid/High/Top level play might be much more do-able. As others have said, Marth's fundamentals matter a whole lot in this MU. If you have this in bag fulls, you're probably going to be fine.

 

[CURRY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubGsOgANMwk&ab_channel=2GGaming

holy **** this set
Leo being a god as always
Javi is frickin good too
also bramble blast / stickerbrush symphony music on the last game.
I love this.

 

[JayE]

Sick clip

 

[FallenHero]

Sick clip

Holy **** that jab to stop the side b was so well timed.

 

[JayE]

Holy **** that jab to stop the side b was so well timed.

Thanks. It takes some practice, Fox's illusion isn't the easiest to stop especially when he's right in front of you

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sick clip

Ayyy!

It seems somebody is copying False, eh?

 

[DrRiceBoy]

A bit late to the party but Marth finally took a major!!! Super proud of MKLeo and this character. Hopefully he will continue to make strides in the scene with Leo, Mr. E, and False. Anybody else remember prepatch Marth's uptilt? The character has changed so much since then.

Anywhom, anyone else excited for the latest Fire Emblem announcements? Gaiden remakes!!! Never played the original but this looks great. Character design looks modest and fantastic, gameplay seems faithful to the original, and the artstyle looks great with the aged, faded but still anime-styled. More importantly, this opens up the possibilities for remakes for the older FE games. I personally want PoR/RD the most since they're my favorites, but any of them really would be awesome (another Marth game remake lol?).

 

[Bowserboy3]

Indeed, I am quite happy with the Fire Emblem announcements yesterday.

The Gaiden remake (Echoes) is very good, and I very much appreciate that Nintendo and Intelligent Systems realise that non-Japanese players are very interested in the franchises roots. I for one will certainly be getting it, but I do want to re-play Shadow Dragon first... gotta get into the mood by playing the first game in the series!

One comment I saw on Echoes, is that they wonder if it could be the start of something... like Echoes as the base, and they can keep using it as a way to remake all the unreleased Japanese games. This would be a fantastic move (as well as a simple and actually not obnoxious money printer scheme - players would appreciate this and buy in droves), but this idea excites me most because we might finally get a (updated) localised release of New Mystery of the Emblem (More Marth!!!), a game I am dying to have an official English release.

Fire Emblem Warriors is super exciting to me. I never played the Dynasty Warriors games, but I played Hyrule Warriors and thoroughly enjoyed it (even though the Wii U getting none of the 3DS content kind of killed the game for me), so combining it with one of my all time favourite franchises now is amazing. Though we don't know a huge deal about it, I'm glad it's not too far off (Fall 2017, which should benefit the Switch's launch), and I'm glad Chrom looks crispy as f*** - I always had a soft spot for Chrom, he's kind of like that best friend who is like a soft, caring, big brother you never had, watching over you. He also gets bonus points for being a descendant of Marth, and basically a more muscular Marth. But show me Marth in there!

It really didn't surprise me, but I'm glad there is confirmation of a Fire Emblem game is coming to the Switch sometime next year. Should be cool.

And what really surprised me most is how much content and how interesting the mobile game, Fire Emblem Heroes has. I was right in assuming it would include as many characters from past games as possible, but I didn't expect it to have quite that much going on. I'm not sure how the in-app purchases will work, but hopefully it won't pull a Super Mario Run and lock all the game away behind a £8.99/$10 purchase. That said, I hope you don't have to keep buying things to play the whole game. Not sure how it will work, but for the sake of argument, lets say the game has you traverse across 4 continents/islands (we have no real idea how it will work, so this is just discussion sake), and the first is unlocked from the get go. When you get to the end of the first island/continent, you can pay £1.50, or even £2 to unlock the next continent, it would cost around £4.50 to £6 to play the full game. This, I wouldn't mind, seeing as it's not a huge total price, and it would cater to everyone; to those who want to play the full game, those who just want to try it, but also to those who aren't sure, but want to continue and can stop if they don't enjoy it (which is part of the reason why Super Mario Run was met with some criticism - it was buy all or go home).

I also wouldn't be surprised to see something like Pokémon Go in-app purchases. Like, cheap 50p stuff, where you can buy items and stuff. In this case, you could buy some orbs for levelling up. It's that, or you could simply just pay 50p to level up your character to the next level (3 stars to 4 stars for example) or even just straight up to max. I could see the former (about levelling up) being met with mixed reactions (having to pay every time to level up, that's £2 to level a 1 star to 5 star), but the latter option of that I could see a good idea, especially for those wanting to get their heroes straight out on the battlefield.

Either way, I was very pleased with the Fire Emblem direct, and am very excited for pretty much everything.

Sucks being an iPhone user though!!! Our comeuppance for getting Mario Run sooner (couldn't it have been the other way around pls?).

 

[JayE]

Ayyy!

It seems somebody is copying False, eh?

Actually this is a setup I've done before False did it on stream. But yeah I guess you can call if the False since he was the first Marth I've seen do it in tournament. Its a great edgeguard that isn't the easiest to pull off lol.

Anywhom, anyone else excited for the latest Fire Emblem announcements? Gaiden remakes!!! Never played the original but this looks great. Character design looks modest and fantastic, gameplay seems faithful to the original, and the artstyle looks great with the aged, faded but still anime-styled. More importantly, this opens up the possibilities for remakes for the older FE games. I personally want PoR/RD the most since they're my favorites, but any of them really would be awesome (another Marth game remake lol?).

Yes, I'm so excited. I never played the original Gaiden but I'm glad they are remaking the older games. And, I even predicted them/wanted them to make a remake or have the next FE game be related to an older game. I didn't really want an entirely brand new game made from scratch just yet. Its about time for a damn remake, lol. Echoes show that they haven't forgotten about their old fans. FE2 needed some polishing, according to some of my friends that have played Gaiden. I'm glad its getting some love. This also means there could potentially be more remakes coming our way for the Japan-only FE games - FE4/5, and 6 of course (I still need to finish Binding Blade but that game is tough lol)
I played one of the DS remakes, Shadow Dragon (Book 1) but I never got to play New Mystery the Emblem (FE12, Book 2) so as a Fire Emblem fanatic and a Marth main, I would love to see Marth's games localized, remade, and updated but I have a feeling that won't happen anytime soon. who knows though. Echoes looks to be amazing, to fix some of Gaiden's problems - such as giving characters more of a personality, improving the interface, and the overall pacing of the game. For me, a sequel/remake should be different and add more features, but also stay true to its roots.

 

[FallenHero]

I haven't seen the FE direct since I'm not really that interested in the series, but I hope FE won't be the only Nintendo IP that goes from obscure to popular. The day F-Zero games are more popular than Mario Kart (the MK series has really fallen off for me after MK:DS) would be a great for me. I would definitely try playing another FE game if Marth was the main character though. I should probably get to finishing Sacred Stones one of these days....

 

[DariusM27]

So, it's really bothering me that I win easier with Cloud than I do with Marth.
I've used Cloud 10 times... maybe.
I used him as a joke after losing several times in a row - once to a WiiFitTrainer, once to Payonetta, once to SANIC and once to Pacman.
But I'm pretty sure it would be easier for me to get wins with Cloud all the time. That's probably why MkLeo hasn't been using Marth at all lately.
Just too much work to get a single tipper, and without that, he's just not very good.
Just really frustrated I guess :/
I just dislike the Smash4 meta, compared to Brawl or Melee - mainly because Brawl and Melee Marth was soooo freaking cool....

Edit - MkLeo took Genesis 4. I think Marth does well against Mario (50/50) but I also think Leo got lucky vs Mr R. Mr R has a mental block vs Leo, because Leo was getting bodied and Mr R just dropped each game, choked.

 

[Bowserboy3]

So, it's really bothering me that I win easier with Cloud than I do with Marth.
I've used Cloud 10 times... maybe.
I used him as a joke after losing several times in a row - once to a WiiFitTrainer, once to Payonetta, once to SANIC and once to Pacman.
But I'm pretty sure it would be easier for me to get wins with Cloud all the time. That's probably why MkLeo hasn't been using Marth at all lately.
Just too much work to get a single tipper, and without that, he's just not very good.
Just really frustrated I guess :/
I just dislike the Smash4 meta, compared to Brawl or Melee - mainly because Brawl and Melee Marth was soooo freaking cool....

Edit - MkLeo took Genesis 4. I think Marth does well against Mario (50/50) but I also think Leo got lucky vs Mr R. Mr R has a mental block vs Leo, because Leo was getting bodied and Mr R just dropped each game, choked.

Hey, sorry to hear you're having a bothersome time right now. Don't worry, we all have phases like that; I still feel like this playing as ZSS more often than I like to admit, and even Rosalina (who I've used alongside Marth since release) gets me upset sometimes (though this is often just me playing incorrectly, and it snaps me back into the correct mindset. Not a fun wake up call, but it's there). You'll get through it.

But what you've explained doesn't surprise me oddly. That's just Cloud in a nutshell basically. It might be a bit of a meme, but Cloud is indeed very easy to pick up and play well at a lower level like ours, in stark contrast to Marth, who requires so much more precision.

That's where things get interesting though. While Cloud is easy to pick up and "master" at lower level, results of top level play show us that when mastered, he's not actually that much better than one would initially expect. Marth has been doing arguably just as well as Cloud at top level recently. Stick at it. Whatever happens, if you truly love your character, you'll end up pushing yourself further (I dropped Marth when Roy came out because he was initially super cool and "better" - I switched back to Marth within a week because I just didn't have the passion or drive to continue using him [that and I didn't find his playstyle as fun]). Keep at it!

Interestingly enough, I actually enjoy Smash 4 Marth far more than any other Marth. I suppose what it is about this version, in regards to spacing aerials/starting combos, Smash 4 Marth actually has to space a lot more precisely. As such, it often feels much more rewarding to me being successful with him.

For example, if I want to pressure somebody's shield? Space that Fair or Ftilt at tipper range. I want to start a combo? I've got to land that sourspot most likely... but how can I do this? I could pressure somebody's shield and force them to make a mistake to leave me an opening, or I could utilise some movement options to weave in and out to create an opening/bait a reaction. In a way I suppose, I actually have to think and plan ahead a whole lot more with Smash 4 Marth, and I like that. For example, Brawl Marth I could often just use Fair for most situations and get away with it. I can't just rush in and grab somebody to start an easy combo like Brawl Marth. In a sense, with Smash 4 Marth, I feel you can't just mindlessly press buttons and get away with it (though he definitely still has some moves like that *coughJab1cough*). You have to think more - you have to be precise, and I really enjoy playing like that.

This view might actually make sense in a way. I'm sure you all know, Sakurai originally wanted Marth in Smash 64, as another sword fighter to differentiate Link's swordplay. He conceptualised Marth to be focused on precision, and henceforth, when Melee came around, his tipper mechanic came about. But that said, Marth has never had to play truly precisely since now. The changes they've given Marth throughout the history of Smash 4 finally give him that "precision" playstyle that Sakurai wanted way back in 64.

Has Sakurai finally created his perfect Marth?

 

[MasterExocuter]

Anybody else remember prepatch Marth's uptilt? The character has changed so much since then.

oh god I remember Marth's old utilt. The tracer was definitely not representative of the hitbox. quite misleading and unreliable unless they were right above you

 

[Vipermoon]

oh god I remember Marth's old utilt. The tracer was definitely not representative of the hitbox. quite misleading and unreliable unless they were right above you

None of the hitboxes changed. Not even damage (except Lucina). They just kept taking frames off (three separate occasions) and increased knockback once. It went from being one of the worst Utilt's that did like no damage despite not setting up any combos, didn't kill, and wasn't even safe on hit - to one of the better Utilt's in the game.

 

[Bowserboy3]

None of the hitboxes changed. Not even damage (except Lucina). They just kept taking frames off (three separate occasions) and increased knockback once. It went from being one of the worst Utilt's that did like no damage even though it didn't setup any combos, didn't kill, and wasn't even safe on hit - to one of the better Utilt's in the game.

For a moment there, I assumed you were on about the buffs as a whole... but then it clicked you were just on about Up Tilt. Whoops!

Marth's buffs as a whole made him a much more fun character to use. We were very lucky he got blessed by the balance team in patches.

 

[Vipermoon]

For a moment there, I assumed you were on about the buffs as a whole... but then it clicked you were just on about Up Tilt. Whoops!

Marth's buffs as a whole made him a much more fun character to use. We were very lucky he got blessed by the balance team in patches.

He's been a well regarded and popular character of Smash Bros. They had no choice.

 

[Bowserboy3]

He's been a well regarded and popular character of Smash Bros. They had no choice.

That's a very good point.

That's probably the reason why characters like Fox have never been really bad yet. Brawl was his poorest showing, but he was still somewhere near top 15 IIRC?

Though Falcon must have gotten the short end of the stick in Brawl it seems (even if most of it was to do with the mechanics, they still neutered a huge deal of his kit).

 

[JayE]

I don't want to think what I'd do if Marth didn't get those buffs. It would have been a crime if Marth didn't get that buff.
I would probably still be using him though, even if he wasn't buffed. Marth main for life.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah if Marth somehow saw no buffs like Jigglypuff, I'd still use him but with almost always Cloud in tournament. On the bright side of that, he'd still have his old shield breaker and the shield stun patch would have kept his aerials still almost safe.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Agreed - if Marth was like poor old Puff and didn't get any buffs, I'd still be using him (I used him at the initial release like most of you here), but I'd likely be strictly Rosalina and Bayonetta in tournament, as opposed to all three depending on my mood or the MU.

On the topic of the Shield Breaker, their intent was to compensate the shield damage a little due to the increased damage, right?

However, we all know they compensated just a little too much.

I mean, it's still useful (and still better than it has ever been before IIRC), but it always bothers me the changes they made to it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Agreed - if Marth was like poor old Puff and didn't get any buffs, I'd still be using him (I used him at the initial release like most of you here), but I'd likely be strictly Rosalina and Bayonetta in tournament, as opposed to all three depending on my mood or the MU.

On the topic of the Shield Breaker, their intent was to compensate the shield damage a little due to the increased damage, right?

However, we all know they compensated just a little too much.

I mean, it's still useful (and still better than it has ever been before IIRC), but it always bothers me the changes they made to it.

No, it was just a nerf. Shield HP never changed, shield stun isn't related to shield HP, and Shield Breaker attack damage was untouched of course.

Now the good thing is Marths got better at Shield Breaker mixups/mind games/setups. And just as significant: our aerials do a lot more damage and we have the safety now to keep hitting shields with them. All of this compensates to the point where it seems like the Marths are breaking shields just as often. But yes, at first the nerf was frustrating because our aerials didn't yet have the range/damage/safety that they got they later on.

 

[Fephoenix]

Lol when you're that one Marth who can't break shields at all because his opponents roll whenever he tries XD I'm still trying to figure out how to condition the opponent to shield long enough so I can charge a shield breaker and hit it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Lol when you're that one Marth who can't break shields at all because his opponents roll whenever he tries XD I'm still trying to figure out how to condition the opponent to shield long enough so I can charge a shield breaker and hit it.

Shield break mind games are an art. You could be constantly in the air threatening their shields with tipper aerials and whatever you do after the aerial to counter their reaction. You could be reading their dash to shield. You could be dashing into them while they expect grab/SH Fair/DB/etc. You could be under their platform on whatever stage. You could threaten them using the end lag of their laggy option (charge past the point of when they're able to shield, charge longer if you read a spot dodge). Most of all you have to know when an uncharged Shield Breaker is going to break shield because only then is it unreactable. So basically every time you hit a shield, you have this window to break it.

 

[JayE]

Lol when you're that one Marth who can't break shields at all because his opponents roll whenever he tries XD I'm still trying to figure out how to condition the opponent to shield long enough so I can charge a shield breaker and hit it.

A pretty good way to get shieldbreaks (at least for me) is doing a b reverse shieldbreaker in the air, or on the ground. When they're shielding expecting a bair or an aerial, you can b reverse and land on them with a shieldbreaker. Works pretty well for me.

 

[DariusM27]

The Diddy MU.
ZeRo says it's in Marth's favor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIJDVz3ENcI

Historically it's been regarded as Marth's worst MU.

My questions are

1. Who is right? ZeRo? Or every Marth ever?

2. What did Mr E do wrong in this set?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Most importantly about Shield Breaking is the reward for doing so (kind of obvious, but wanted to bring it up anyway). You can be losing a match and get a Shield Break and you're automatically back in the lead.

I got a good Shield Break last night at a bi-weekly (which I managed to place 2nd in, my best yet, so real happy about that!); it was against a Shulk main with a secondary Cloud, but he used Cloud this whole set. I won the first match on FD pretty convincingly with a 2 stock lead (yay 3 stock in Europe), and he took me to Duck Hunt, where the first stock he had a huge lead (Up Air juggles... I cry). However, he missed an Up Air as I was coming to land, so he landed on the tree on the right, and I Up Air'd him as I came to land, which tipped his shield, but he stopped in shield, expecting an Up Tilt, so I jumped and used a Shield Breaker... pop!

However, being on the right side tree made it real hard to tip anything (I'm not totally sure whether Up Smash would tip through the tree, so I didn't want to risk it). BUT, I did land a tipper - with Shield Breaker. I did that thing where if you jump, double jump then immediately charge Shield Breaker, you fly forwards with all that momentum practically at ground level again. I stood on the tree, jumped back a little, and double jumped up when I thought I spaced it just right, which I did.

I was on 105%. Cloud was on 33%.

Cloud lost his stock.

After that I somehow managed to 3 stock the player (likely that got into his head. He started making all sorts of aggressive plays that I could read and shield/punish Dancing Blade, Counter, Tipper Fsmash etc).

One other way to use Shield Breaker that has worked for me in the past (after seeing Mr E do it a few times) is using it getting up off of the ledge. Like, drop down, jump and Shield Breaker. It's cool because if you time it just right, you don't even have to worry about moving forward, because the little boost of momentum it gives puts you on stage.

---
DariusM27

I think it's a bad assumption to assume "every Marth ever" thinks the Diddy MU is still bad. We've pretty much established that in here not everybody thinks the same. In many other threads it's the same.

Historically, yes it's been his worst MU (one of; I'd argue that Sheik was worse pre-patch), but MU's develop with time.

I've only seen bits of that set, but it looked like Mr E was trying to play too aggressively to start with. When he started to slow it down it was already too late. I'll watch it more in detail later.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Hi all.
I'm Jesse (AKA Strider Zessei) and I'm a filthy Cloud main looking to pick up Marth as a second main ('secondary' feels disrespectful to the Hero King). Been lurking for a bit, and I'm really enjoying the lively discussion!
All hail the Hero King!

 

[Fephoenix]

Hi all.
I'm Jesse (AKA Strider Zessei) and I'm a filthy Cloud main looking to pick up Marth as a second main ('secondary' feels disrespectful to the Hero King). Been lurking for a bit, and I'm really enjoying the lively discussion!
All hail the Hero King!

The Hero King should always be the primary main in your heart. Jokes aside, welcome! I hope you have a great time on the Marth forums and learn a lot so you can start dominating all your rivals. Long live the Hero King!

(Also, I should be getting a profile picture but I'm afraid of copyright issues )

 

[Reizilla]

So did Leo revive this place or what?

 

[Vipermoon]

He revived other Marth players' gameplay and other peoples' opinion of Marth far more than he revived the Marth boards.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

So did Leo revive this place or what?

Fire Emblem Warriors revived my interest in the series as a whole.

 

[Fephoenix]

So did Leo revive this place or what?

Naw. This place is still dead. I say we need a revival though. Is everyone busy or something?

 

[CURRY]

He revived other Marth players' gameplay and other peoples' opinion of Marth far more than he revived the Marth boards.

Correct me if I'm wrong:
Marth didn't receive any buffs in between the time of turning from mid tier to high tier.

As much as I don't want to admit it, I base my character choice a little bit on the tier list. As a Brawl Marth main, character choice transfer from game to game is like, 80% of why I played Marth in Smash 4.

Probably the only reason I haven't stopped MAINING him (as opposed to pushing him off to being a secondary) is because he became high tier.
i.e., people believed that Marth could perform well, so I believed too and so kept Marth as my main.