Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[DariusM27]

Sick movement, Darius.

Would you think Marth is good if he had this?:

Thanks!

Meh, it might move him up a tier spot or two, but you cant fix Marth with just adding grab range...

Lol jk. Melee grab range. You are missed.

 

[DariusM27]

Sick movement, Darius.

Would you think Marth is good if he had this?:

Lol, idk that's a tough call. It probably would help some. I'd rather have better follow ups though

Gentelmen, I present to you Exhibit A.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk_HpypVrv4

Pugwest should know this MU very well, but the set count between him and Raffi is either dead even or in Raffi's favor.

Idk guys. It's just like the first year of smash. Marth is in a difficult position in a lot of MUs, and he still needs to learn how to deal with them.
Not that he can't, he just has trouble doing it consistently.

 

[Shaya]

Pug's jumping in that set was horrendous, to say the least.
Let alone overall poor spacing and noticeably slow reaction on things (sleep is important).

I genuinely could not use that to rate a match up when a Marth is jumping into rob's fair and is trying to nair his nair at point blank over and over (hitbox that comes from overhead while Marth is below ROB over and over? he prob would've had better luck with rising uairs or rar bairs).

(Not to say ROB loses or is even or wins, but if neutral game play is rife with mistakes that are just plainly not-forced, it's hard to take it too seriously).

 

[DariusM27]

General poll question

- If you could choose between Smash4 1.1.6 Marth, or any previous incarnation of Marth including Brawl or Melee Marth, which would you choose to replace the current Smash4 Marth?
Would you go back to oldschool Marth or keep him the way he is now?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I would personally love Brawl Marth, with grab release shenanigans.

 

[Vipermoon]

Either Marth would be great but I'll take Melee. Either Marth would be super broken in this game too. Like XXX tier.

 

[Bowserboy3]

S*** - I suddenly stopped getting notifications from here...

I'm not sure which Marth I'd prefer in this game to be honest, but that's probably just because I am strange and actually get the most joy/fun out of playing Smash 4 Marth as it is. It just feels more rewarding for getting stuff right this time, seeing as things are more or less a bit more limited.

Melee Marth is still suuuuper fun to watch, though.

 

[Locuan]

I'd have to go with Melee Marth. While both of his iterations feel precise, there's something about Melee Marth which keeps me going back.

 

[Bowserboy3]

We did crews at our weekly last night; 6 teams of 3 in a round robin format.

First 3 sets ended up 2 wins and 1 loss for my team; I used Rosalina for two (one win/one loss) and Bayonetta for one (one win).

My team then abandoned me for the last two sets. Effectively leaving me at 3 stocks vs 9 stocks.

I surpassed my own expectations; I f***ing smashed both of them with Marth. Tippers for daaaaaaays. Winning 3 people's winnings is nice. It shouldn't have been easy either, as both teams had one of the two players who are better than me in my area.

I must have been on some sort of drugs without knowing. I was really pleased with my Marth.

One thing I noticed worked to big effect during the my two Marth sets was using Dancing Blade 1, 2 up and 3 up, then not doing a finisher and reacting to the opponent's escape option. Sometimes they airdodge (or Counter if they have one) which can be punished, and if they jump, I can attempt to juggle easier.

One thing I did to our Ike from 0% was; sour falling Uair -> grab -> Dthrow -> Uair -> empty hop which baited airdoge -> catch landing with Nair 1 -> Jab 1 -> Dancing Blade 1, Up 2, Up 3 -> start charging Fsmash which baited Counter -> Tipper Fsmash death at 39%. Super pleased with how that turned out.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth has good potential in crew battles, I think. I took five stocks in a two stock crew battle (so I only had two stocks to do that) a few weeks ago. It's a good feeling.

Mr. E vs Fuwa first to 5 wins at Frame Perfect 2:

 

[LordShade67]

So, uh...this happened.

Spoiler

 

[Vipermoon]

Has anyone had the ground hit of Usmash (Mr. Dust Cloud) link into the tipper before? I have and it was the only time.

 

[Fephoenix]

Maybe you caught them during their jump?

 

[Vipermoon]

I was punishing Charizard's Fly landing lag. The dust cloud sent him up normally but in a twirling animation with his long, skinny neck at the forefront. Charizard's weird shape made him skip the enormous 13% hitboxes and he went straight for the tipper. It felt Brawl.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I've never had this happen to me, but now I'm interested in finding out if I can get this to happen while trying... darn it!

I have had the dust cloud hitboxes not link correctly into the main launching hitboxes before; likely a combination of running towards the opponent and rage though, not totally sure (sure somebody here can explain it).

IIRC, this could happen in Brawl, but the knockback was actually strangely good...

 

[Fephoenix]

The dust cloud hit boxes sometimes don't link into the main launching hitboxes if you hit the opponent with the very edge of it.

 

[Vipermoon]

I've never had this happen to me, but now I'm interested in finding out if I can get this to happen while trying... darn it!

I have had the dust cloud hitboxes not link correctly into the main launching hitboxes before; likely a combination of running towards the opponent and rage though, not totally sure (sure somebody here can explain it).

IIRC, this could happen in Brawl, but the knockback was actually strangely good...

^This happens to me relatively often. It was more rare in Brawl because dust clouds didn't reach as far horizonally.

 

[Bowserboy3]

^This happens to me relatively often. It was more rare in Brawl because dust clouds didn't reach as far horizonally.

I see. What's the main reason this occurs? Rage and momentum stuff?

 

[Vipermoon]

I see. What's the main reason this occurs? Rage and momentum stuff?

Brawl Usmash: dust cloud size 5.0 at frames 12-13; 14% hitboxes size 4.9 at frames 12-17
Smash 4 Usmash: dust cloud size 5.5 at frames 13-14; 13% hitboxes size 5.8 at frames 13-17

Smash 4 Possibilities:
- If your opponent gets hit by the dust cloud at its maximum horizontal range -- by the time they get over to the main hitboxes, it's frame 18 now and the hitboxes are gone.
- They were launched on frame 14 instead of 13 and by the time they get over to the main hitboxes, it's frame 18 now and the hitboxes are gone.
- So the dust cloud knockback angle is 125°. If your opponent gets hit by the dust cloud at its maximum horizontal range and DI's up (making their knockback angle 115°), they'll either miss the hitboxes they were being sent towards or hit the Tipper instead. Missing the main hitboxes are pretty unlikely because Brawl's smaller size 4.9 main hitboxes did fine. I'd bet more on the active frames issues I mentioned.

Why was it rarer in Brawl?
- The dust cloud came out on frame 12 in Brawl but Usmash was still active until frame 17 -- so there was more time for your opponent to get to the main hitboxes before they "expired"
- Less horizontal range means they are closer to Marth already when they get hit
- It's possible that the dust cloud had a different knockback angle

 

[DariusM27]

JayE We met on FG, it was a bit laggy, but you only play 1 game with me w/ your sheik? what's up with that? lol

 

[Fephoenix]

Hey, does anyone even come on here anymore? This place seems quite dead...

 

[DariusM27]

It just happens sometimes.

 

[JayE]

JayE We met on FG, it was a bit laggy, but you only play 1 game with me w/ your sheik? what's up with that? lol

My mom called me so I had to go, plus I wasn't feeling the connection. Also I went Sheik because I hate the Marth ditto, and its a MU I'm trying to practice against Marths

 

[DariusM27]

My mom called me so I had to go, plus I wasn't feeling the connection. Also I went Sheik because I hate the Marth ditto, and its a MU I'm trying to practice against Marths

No problem. Marth dittos are tricky for sure.

 

[Vipermoon]

First video with Cloud vs. Marth. Best CPU play I've ever seen.

LOL

 

[Bowserboy3]

First video with Cloud vs. Marth. Best CPU play I've ever seen.

LOL

Lmao I saw this briefly last night.

I was literally jumping and squealing by the time that Dair spike hit!

 

[Bowserboy3]

Somebody tell me I am not going mad here...

Did uncharged sourspot Shield Breaker actually lock Mewtwo there?!

Is that actually a thing? Is it character specific for example? I'd imagine its only a lower percent thing due to the sheer damage (ie: it's not a 1% jab 1 for example, it's an 8% sword stab)?

If so, why did I not know about this until now?...

 

[Vipermoon]

Somebody tell me I am not going mad here...

Did uncharged sourspot Shield Breaker actually lock Mewtwo there?!

Is that actually a thing? Is it character specific for example? I'd imagine its only a lower percent thing due to the sheer damage (ie: it's not a 1% jab 1 for example, it's an 8% sword stab)?

If so, why did I not know about this until now?...

Sure it can jab lock. Sakurai angle with 30 base knockback (like sour Ftilt has) is definitely low enough knockback for early percent stuff.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sure it can jab lock. Sakurai angle with 30 base knockback (like sour Ftilt has) is definitely low enough knockback for early percent stuff.

I can't believe I never realised this until now...

When exactly does it stop locking?

 

[Vipermoon]

I can't believe I never realised this until now...

When exactly does it stop locking?

I don't know. Almost definitely before 20%.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Give this a watch peeps, as this affects Marth.

Now, near the end, it explains the ways to remove this permanently. With Mario, he can achieve his standard falling animation out of a SH Uair, but not from a standard SH.

Does Marth achieve his standard falling animation out of a SH? If not, would say, Fair allow him to do it?

 

[Vipermoon]

This has killed me so many times in tournament!! And everywhere else of course. I noticed it since the very first time it happened to me when Smash 4 was brand new. But I blamed it on myself either not inputting forward on the control stick the right way/well enough or something to do with me using tap jump or both. Good to know I can just Fair or Airdodge. Aerial DB1 would be even better because of its quickness but that move halts Air Speed for it to need to accelerate again so it won't work as well.

I think Marth obtains his neutral falling animation in a short hop but I'll have to check to make sure. Fair and Bair without a fast fall will do it though as those animations end before landing during the short hop. But not Air Dodge; all Air Dodges are nearly 50 frame animations that, as of Smash 4, can be interrupted early so not fast enough for Marth's 41 frame air time short hop.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Marth
Short Hop Air Time: 41 Frames
Airdodge - Intangibility: 3-27 - FAF: 33

Let's not forget SH AD Aerial is a legit mean of approach for Marth/Lucina

 

[Vipermoon]

Let's not forget SH AD Aerial is a legit mean of approach for Marth/Lucina

Of course. But it won't help the RCO Air Speed issue (in a SH).

 

[CURRY]

That's the shorthop frame data without fastfall, correct?
Do we know how long an empty shorthop fastfall is? I've been looking for it for quite a while and I can't find it.

EDIT:
o I'm dumb.
I've never actually timed it. 41 frames is the shorthop fastfall.

 

[Bowserboy3]

So effectively, if you want to minimalize risk of this happening when you get launched off stage, just use Fair.

I've never really noticed this with Marth personally, but now I know about it maybe I'll spot it.

I suppose I've engrained it in my mind to press Fair once when I'm off stage anyways. I remember an old video about hurtbox shifting and that Marth's Fair will allow him to survive a few percent longer on the side blastzones if you use it when he's about to touch it or something. I mean, it's only a couple percent, but if it keeps you alive, that's good enough for me, so I often just use Fair when I get launched into the magnifying glass, which in turn would remove the RCO Air Speed.

But knowing that a simple SH or a SHFair will also remove it is good. If ever I am unsure whether I'm affected by this it's good to know I can use quickly use this to remove it.

 

[Vipermoon]

41 frames is without fast fall. With fast fall it's like 28 frames.

I tested some stuff.
- SH Bair actually doesn't put him in the neutral falling animation
- SH Fair does as I said.
- And yes, a SH by itself works too.
- Lastly, SH DB1 by itself works too.

Off stage, technically Air Dodge is the best option because it ends on frame 32 while Fair is frame 37.

Yeah, to survive I use Fair if I think I probably won't die but I use double jump (because I feel that it's slightly better) when I think I'm definitely going to die if I don't press a button. Double jump works by the way to remove the RCO Air Speed; I think the video didn't mention that.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Okay so I did notice the RCO Air Speed during friendlies at my weekly last night. I suppose actually knowing about it means you notice it easier afterall.

Didn't screw me over, but I definitely saw it.

I still get a bit confused as to why it happens, so I'll rewatch the video and try getting it to happen myself in training and stuff.

As long as I at least know how to get rid of it, that's a start.

 

[DariusM27]

I wanted to ask a General question directed toward all of you.

Have you noticed yourself improve against certain MUs? Especially the "bad" MUs for Marth?
If so, in what way, and what was the key to unlocking the improvement?

For instance, my Marth always has trouble with DDD and Greninja. But if I switch to Cloud, who I literally never use or lab with, it then becomes a free win in those MUs.

My Marth does alright when I am playing at top level. But if I'm not performing at 100%, I take a lot of damage and lose stocks vs opponents who really aren't that good.

Anyway, that's my question.

Rephrased might be, do you see Marth moving forward in the meta, or losing ground?
If he does move forward, how is that going to happen exactly.

Edit -
Pugwest lost to Nairo 2 - 0
Mr E lost to Zero 2 - 0
Mkleo got knocked out by False's Dk
False's Marth got 2 stocked for free by Void.

I just freaking want people to stop calling Marth top tier because he's freaking not.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I wanted to ask a General question directed toward all of you.

Have you noticed yourself improve against certain MUs? Especially the "bad" MUs for Marth?
If so, in what way, and what was the key to unlocking the improvement?

For instance, my Marth always has trouble with DDD and Greninja. But if I switch to Cloud, who I literally never use or lab with, it then becomes a free win in those MUs.

My Marth does alright when I am playing at top level. But if I'm not performing at 100%, I take a lot of damage and lose stocks vs opponents who really aren't that good.

Anyway, that's my question.

Rephrased might be, do you see Marth moving forward in the meta, or losing ground?
If he does move forward, how is that going to happen exactly.

Edit -
Pugwest lost to Nairo 2 - 0
Mr E lost to Zero 2 - 0
Mkleo got knocked out by False's Dk
False's Marth got 2 stocked for free by Void.

I just freaking want people to stop calling Marth top tier because he's freaking not.

Tbh, when we have characters like Bayo, Diddy, Cloud, Rosalina and Sheik who are a clear cut above the rest, you can use the "X character isn't top tier" on many characters. Characters like Mario, ZSS and Sonic are all good but they still aren't on the level of those 5, so my opinion right now is that they aren't even "top tier".

I think you just need to find out where you like to see Marth on the tier list. Personally, I feel he could be anywhere between the 9th-12th range.