Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

Correct me if I'm wrong:
Marth didn't receive any buffs in between the time of turning from mid tier to high tier.

As much as I don't want to admit it, I base my character choice a little bit on the tier list. As a Brawl Marth main, character choice transfer from game to game is like, 80% of why I played Marth in Smash 4.

Probably the only reason I haven't stopped MAINING him (as opposed to pushing him off to being a secondary) is because he became high tier.
i.e., people believed that Marth could perform well, so I believed too and so kept Marth as my main.

Yeah I believe you're correct in your thoughts of the situation.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Could someone kindly remind me in which patch Marth was buffed?
I seem to recall that 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 benefited him, but I can't recall exactly how. 1.1.5 was the change to shield stun, wasn't it?

 

[Rashyboy05]

Patch 1.1.4 was the patch that increased Marth's range and gave his tippers and sourspots more damage. Patch 1.1.5 did nothing to Marth as far as I know.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Patch 1.1.4 was the patch that increased Marth's range and gave his tippers and sourspots more damage. Patch 1.1.5 did nothing to Marth as far as I know.

I was thinking of the patch where everyone's shield damage was changed, 1.1.1. And in that one, Shield Breaker's uncharged shield damage was nerfed from 30% to 25%.

 

[ぱみゅ]

90% sure the one patch with the universal shield change was 1.1.0 and 1.1.1 was only the Diddy hotfix.

 

[Bowserboy3]

1.1.0 made moves with hitlag modifier greater than 1.0 (Marth tippers, Roy sweetspot, Ryu in general) safer on shield by dividing the hitlag the user receives by some amount (something like 1.25, can't remember totally). It also reduced the intangibility on all dodges and rolls by a frame each (and was also the first of Marth's two sets of "really useful buffs", 1.1.4 being the second instance).

1.1.1 was the patch that provided the main changes to shieldstun and the like that we know today (as well as reducing the intangibility on just rolls by yet another frame). This was the patch that Shield Breaker went from 30 shield damage to 25 shield damage.

1.1.2 was the Diddy hotfix, and 1.1.3 was back to the normal patch changes (the patch that essentially was the birth of Leo Blade with Dancing Blade Down 3's changes).

 

[JesseMcCloud]

First day of Fire Emblem Heroes and I get the God-pull:

 

[Bowserboy3]

First day of Fire Emblem Heroes and I get the God-pull:
View attachment 125609 View attachment 125610

Jealous!

Though I did get a 5 star Tiki on my first attempt!... Not who I wanted like, but in terms of star ranking, that's pretty amazing.

 

[Vipermoon]

So FE Shadow Dragon (for DS) is now available on the Wii U virtual console. I bought it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

So FE Shadow Dragon (for DS) is now available on the Wii U virtual console. I bought it.

I often wonder why different regions get different eShop games at different times. For example, we've had Shadow Dragon over here in the UK for about a year now, and the same with things like Mario Kart 64 (which I know was released recently in the US).

I didn't get Shadow Dragon on my Wii U. I'd rather have it portable on my DS.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

So FE Shadow Dragon (for DS) is now available on the Wii U virtual console. I bought it.

I'm holding off on buying anything on the Wii U VC until I know if I can import them to the Switch...

 

[Vipermoon]

I often wonder why different regions get different eShop games at different times. For example, we've had Shadow Dragon over here in the UK for about a year now, and the same with things like Mario Kart 64 (which I know was released recently in the US).

I didn't get Shadow Dragon on my Wii U. I'd rather have it portable on my DS.

Oh good to know. I got it because it's been a long long time since I played it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Oh good to know. I got it because it's been a long long time since I played it.

That's fair enough lol.

I plan on replaying it soon on my DS before Echoes comes out.

 

[Vipermoon]

This video randomly showed up and I watched it. I thought it was worth sharing.

ESAM did a Marth stage select analysis using Mr. E as his source. I don't really agree with them. I think Battlefield (and Dream Land too I guess) is better for Marth than he or Mr. E say but maybe I'm just too comfortable there. I also think Lylat is worse than was stated because the biggest issue wasn't mentioned: that the tilting and slants heavily affect what Marth can and cannot do after short hop Fair - so you're asking to make mistakes. But maybe that can be overcome with stage mastery. Lastly, it wasn't mentioned that Marth can be camped hard by certain characters on Final Destination making that stage also worse than was stated.

 

[Bowserboy3]

This video randomly showed up and I watched it. I thought it was worth sharing.

ESAM did a Marth stage select analysis using Mr. E as his source. I don't really agree with them. I think Battlefield (and Dream Land too I guess) is better for Marth than he or Mr. E say but maybe I'm just too comfortable there. I also think Lylat is worse than was stated because the biggest issue wasn't mentioned: that the tilting and slants heavily affect what Marth can and cannot do after short hop Fair - so you're asking to make mistakes. But maybe that can be overcome with stage mastery. Lastly, it wasn't mentioned that Marth can be camped hard by certain characters on Final Destination making that stage also worse than was stated.

I also saw the top video. It was indeed quite interesting (and also quite upsetting!) to watch.

But my god, I am glad I'm not the only player who doesn't agree with the choices Mr E made for "Marth's best stages".

I noticed this straight from the get go. I have never heard anybody claim, ever, that Marth's best stage is Smashville. Most Marth players (at least from experience, which includes my own view too) will tell you that Battlefield, Lylat or Dreamland are Marth's best stage (less so Lylat; I too don't particularly enjoy playing on it, but the platform layout helps buckets in certain MU's). Heck, even ESAM, a guy who doesn't play Marth remarked that he thought Battlefield would be the top pick, and then went on and explained all the reasons why it's commonly stated to be (one of) his best pick.

Honestly, this feels more like "Stages Mr E likes/prefers playing on", and to be fair, it does kind of make sense. We all know by now that Mr E is by far the most aggressive Marth out of the top Marths; Leo is very patient and focuses on precision, perfect pivots etc, Pugwest seems to favour a slower gameplan also, playing a great spacing game, and False seems to play a solid mixture of patient baiting, spacing, and aggression (I can't comment fully on Fuwa, as I haven't analysed enough games of her to solidly come to an opinion). With this in mind, to me, it does at least make sense why Mr E would think Smashville is Marth's best stage; a smaller stage like Smashville means less space for the opponent to run, which makes it easier to push aggression, but it's still far from the optimal playstyle we all know by now. It works (most of the time) for Mr E, so we can't complain to him, but this list feels so personal and not as a whole it's not even funny. We also often see Mr E pick Smashville when it's his pick, which adds more fuel to the "I just like Smashville" fire.

For example, I feel comfortable the most on Battlefield, with any character. Even when I am playing Rosalina and Bayonetta, I'll still likely feel most comfortable on Battlefield. And yes, while Battlefield is still a good stage for both of them, I can't straight up deny that Town and City or even Dreamland are straight up better stages for them both.

That said, Mr E did make a fair point about Smashville, in that the platform can lead to a few early kills, as we've all seen Leo get some crazy combos or extentions on it. Heck, from personal experience, I've managed to KO Pac Man at 65% with Marth's Fthrow on that platform...

But in all, I don't really agree much. The points made about each stage are pretty much spot on, but I feel the relevancy of the points are being mis-placed thanks to comfort, in such a way that the weaker stages are being pushed forwards.

 

[Shaya]

This is an old post of mine I made back in the Brawl days. It still holds a lot of relevancy to Smash4 Marth with a few nuances, main ones being 4 frames extra shield lock hurting blinking and Marth's walk acceleration being **** tier.

https://smashboards.com/posts/15502223

Also, I'VE CRACKED IT... whatever it is.

As a result

I'm confident that with this image, I could probably explain the entirety of everything you need to be almost as good as MikeNeko.

So let's start.
Here's a key for my image's amazingly beautiful coloured semi transparent lines/ruler marks.
First (Purple) - Maximum reach of Marth's hurtbox while stationary
Second (Aqua) - Furthest reach of Marth's hurtbox while shielding (dat foot)
Third (Lime) - Where power shields extend to [and possibly slightly beyond]) and the reach of a pretty healthy shield.

What does this image tell you?
It shows you what spacing really is.
It gives you a logic for what you're doing and how you're manoeuvring to maximise safety.

It is also a strong example of how much space is given or restricted to you by your various animations. Bodies and extremities skew and stretch in all types of weird and wonderful directions for EVERYTHING YOU DO. On another positive point is that as a clearly viewable sphere, it gives me enough to help explain to you the peculiarities of Marth's hitboxes on various moves, and their implications.

Marth's Hitboxes
Similar to the shield, hitboxes are spheres centred at a certain point. From the image above, the furthest reach of Marth's hurtbox (his foot) is significantly shorter than the maximum reach of the shield. Pretending for a second that this is a hitbox, by that logic the maximum horizontal reach of a move comes only from a centre point.

When it comes to nearly every move in the game, hitboxes of moves overlap; in Marth's case the game prioritises our non-tipper hits to register in areas of overlap. Assuming hitboxes ontop of each other in the way they are in Brawl (look them up if you're not sure), the maximum "area" of no overlap will be coming towards the "corners" (in other words the "foot" area of a hitbox will be the most area available for tippering). Every one of Marth's moves has an area both horizontally/vertically which will have the tipper hitbox most protruding - and I tend to call them auto tippers. I know, from practise, where the auto tipper areas of Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, dtilt and dsmash are. The spacing for tipper fsmashing people on platforms is easy as well. A general rule here is that the most protruding tipper point exists in the opposite direction in which it travels. For fair/bair, this means I space/swing at specific vertical heights to auto tipper (with the first and last hits of fair hitbox being what you hit with), for dair and uair you pick horizontal positions to "easily" tipper [or in the case of uair, avoid tippering] them.

Back to the centre point. Knowing where the centres are for moves are important. In Marth's case, it is rarely directly aligned with his sword. This is a contrast to Meta Knight. Meta Knight's down tilt hitbox is centred on the ground, and hence its maximum horizontal range matches with the animation. In Marth's case his hitbox for down tilt is slightly higher, at his furthest reach of his sword animation, there is no hitbox - the maximum reach comes above the sword, giving it's auto tipper area above the ground and being quite a mimic of Down Smash in this regard (this is easy to see with how MikeNeko uses dtilt). What does this difference (re: MK) mean? It means that MK's down tilt can reach 'below' the maximum range of a shield and shield poke our feet. What does this mean for Marth though? It means our down tilt will be hitting people's shields at their maximum range when perfectly spaced. Consider this as "****" in it's purest form.
For our aerials, the hitboxes aren't directly aligned with 'bones' but adjusted. This gives Marth disjoints that do not align with our sword (in other words, we're getting bull **** disjoints). This means that at the maximum horizontal reach of frame 4 of fair, I'm just 500 light years further away from hurtbox than the maximum reach of frame 5 and 6. Frame 7 has the same distinct property.
This means that spacing at those points gives us the maximum safety.
Down tilt hitting shields rather than feet means our maximum range for dtilt is actually longer against shield's than MKs. I'm starting to feel I prefer this.
If you want the best example of a hitbox not centred onto a bone and what effects it has, look at Zero Suit Samus' Uair animation with hitbubbles. It has a "fake" MASSIVE disjoint because of this property.


Actually spacing...
Knowing that there are, in this small scenario, 3 different distances of interaction. It's important to know that for every swing you make, you need to have a reason and goal for that swing.
When I swing my sword, I think "hitting shield". When I play with any character I'm trying to space with, if I'm trying to hit the maximum extremities of shields, I'm very unlikely to be punished (I love Sheik and Falco). When I'm hitting someone I'm consciously choosing to do so - they're in lag or I'm gambling on some commitment which I believe I won't be punished on. For the most part, the commitment part is all I feel I get punished for and everything else just comes naturally.
The beauty of forward air is that when spacing for frame 4 and 7 hits (at the right horizontal/vertical displacements) aiming for maximum reaches of shields, there are these slightly longer horizontally reaching places in frame 5 and 6 which based on my opponent stopping his shield I'm actually "reaching" towards in the case they extend.
This same beauty comes in Neutral air in a more "obvious" form. When spacing for nair, the first hit being shorter than the second - you aim it for their shield or their protruding body parts from hitboxes, but not where they actually "are" at the time. The second hit being longer ranged means that at the same spacing, assuming they didn't "protrude", I'm still reaching and potentially hitting them. I call this 'mechanic' "Carrot and Stick" (poor Horse) strategies. This beautiful nair thing is broken against just about everyone until higher levels of play where people become confident with power shielding. Forward Air is the higher-level play replacement that is a lot more ickly with timing but affords the extra safety against shields. I'd just like to note that C+S Nair is still ****, using it appropriately for beating everyone's moves. Nair used properly only loses to shield. It's still worth learning because it allows us to beat through every character with more range but less disjoint than us (it's reaaaaaaaaaaally good against ZSS, DK, ROB and Wolf)

So back to shields for a second. Beautiful shield animation.
The fact that there is such a huge distance difference between not doing anything and shielding, there must be some really obvious things that I've never really thought of that I can abuse right?
Not shielding is over powered.
Because suddenly I have a significant area in front of me that if I were to shield, would suddenly "catch" any incoming hitboxes that weren't even close to hitting me; giving me this amazing POWER SHIELD.
Furthermore, there are situations where people are naturally aiming for a maximum reach shield or they happen 'accidentally'. Take getting hit on the shield by MK's second hit of dsmash. If you stay in shield, the SECOND down smash (I know its sickening to think there's an MK that bad) will still hit your shield, but in another situation you're sitting without shield, that Dsmash whiffs and you get to punish them for a whiff. Crazy. AbUSE IT.

Power shielding is a tool of spacing. Knowing how much extra horizontal space exists that is hittable, there's the vertical alternative as well. It's known as CROUCHING. Crouching reduces our vertical height by about 60%. His head reaches about where his knees are in the shielding animation. And when you shield from a crouch, all that space above you and also in front of you still becomes your POWER SHIELD ZONE.

Walking coupled with blinking (fast shield drops to reshields, and the same thing while walking) gives you a ridiculous horizontally reaching POWER SHIELD ZONE.
For example
Walk -> shield (sliding) -> unshield (still sliding) -> a little bit of forward walking (your momentum carries over) -> reshield
is BROKEN on Marth because of his walk.

 

[Vipermoon]

This is an old post of mine I made back in the Brawl days. It still holds a lot of relevancy to Smash4 Marth with a few nuances, main ones being 4 frames extra shield lock hurting blinking and Marth's walk acceleration being **** tier.

https://smashboards.com/posts/15502223

Nice, so people do talk about this! I often acknowledge that my Shield Breakers that hit shield would be missing otherwise. And the mysterious stand there and do nothing while they land next to you with a whiffed aerial totally makes sense. Because people don't realize they are actually spacing to hit the round shield. It helps that Marth is a tall and skinny character so the difference between his hurtbox and his shield is surprisingly far. NIce post, Shaya.

And I forget to show you this but remember Marth's quick sword wiggle during Dtilt? Well he actually has no hitbox during it so we can't view Dtilt as an anti-air. Meshima's stuff doesn't have the sword trails but you can tell it happens during frame 6 (remember you can navigate a youtube video using < and >). Link at 13 seconds.

 

[Shaya]

Hmmmm, while I wouldn't guarantee it's still a thing - I believe I've still hit people with it in smash4 and the sword is flicked up during hit lag - the prime point of how a low to the ground dtilt like MK [or in S4 Roy too] will be 'closer' hitting a shield than Marth's could probably be illustrated through examining the scenario.

To justify why I'm not sure if that video is conclusive :
Marth's dtilt poking upwards was sub-one frame in Brawl (2/3rds of 1 frame; and it wasn't all hitbox), you literally could not see it with 60fps recording equipment unless you were in training mode with slower speed (it was an accident I discovered it).
Going by Meshima's video, there are seven recorded frames showing hit bubbles - and the hit box is out for two frames (as it's 1/4 @ 60fps there should be eight frames of hit bubbles).
The sword being angled upwards and then a frame later being at it's regular angle with hitboxes: there's still motion in between those two points.

Edit: meanwhile forward tilt which has hitboxes out for four frames is shown in the video for 28 frames. Soooo I'm confusedddd about everything :o

This is the exact moment Marth's sword would hit people at that acute angle, in Brawl.



And, at least, I talk about it :^)

 

[Vipermoon]

Hmmmm, while I wouldn't guarantee it's still a thing - I believe I've still hit people with it in smash4 and the sword is flicked up during hit lag - the prime point of how a low to the ground dtilt like MK [or in S4 Roy too] will be 'closer' hitting a shield than Marth's could probably be illustrated through examining the scenario.

To justify why I'm not sure if that video is conclusive :
Marth's dtilt poking upwards was sub-one frame in Brawl (2/3rds of 1 frame; and it wasn't all hitbox), you literally could not see it with 60fps recording equipment unless you were in training mode with slower speed (it was an accident I discovered it).
Going by Meshima's video, there are seven recorded frames showing hit bubbles - and the hit box is out for two frames (as it's 1/4 @ 60fps there should be eight frames of hit bubbles).
The sword being angled upwards and then a frame later being at it's regular angle with hitboxes: there's still motion in between those two points.

Edit: meanwhile forward tilt which has hitboxes out for four frames is shown in the video for 28 frames. Soooo I'm confusedddd about everything :o

This is the exact moment Marth's sword would hit people at that acute angle, in Brawl.



And, at least, I talk about it :^)

Read the description. Ftilt and Utilt have been switched in everything but start-up for some reason. You can tell because Ftilt has 4 hitboxes for the duration of 7 frames and a pre-buff tipper position - all the stuff that Utilt is supposed to have. Utilt has Ftilt's 3 hitboxes with the tipper in the buffed position out for 4 frames.

So about Dtilt having 7 hitbox frames in that video: Back when this video came out, while looking at things I noticed the same thing for many of the moves. Either something is correct or it's 1 frame off. I attributed this to an offset between the location of the game's frames and the video's recorded frames. I'm going to try to make a diagram to visualize this...

Dtilt's two active hitbox frames: [O O ]
A recorded frame: I

I [O I I I I O I I I ] I

Edit: this diagram has way more space between each one but Smashboards automatically removes extra spaces. The real diagram should become visible if you quote the post.

 

[Vipermoon]

A Marth breakdown by ESAM. And yes he does exaggerate many times in this video but he says a lot of really on-point things. Like how you have to be better than your opponent to dominate with Marth because neutral game. And that you can't play him like Brawl Marth. He also accurately describes his weaknesses and troublesome matchups.

 

[JayE]

Guys... one of the hypest things I've ever done with Marth in Smash 4

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Guys... one of the hypest things I've ever done with Marth in Smash 4

I'm a simple man. I see a stupid, scrub-onetta main taunting in FG getting rekt, I upvote.

 

[Bowserboy3]

JayE

For me, that was both amazing and painful to watch.

Don't play with my emotions like that! D:

That was a fantastic air dodge read, well spaced too; if you missed you'd have likely SD'd from the looks of it.

 

[JayE]

JayE

For me, that was both amazing and painful to watch.

Don't play with my emotions like that! D:

That was a fantastic air dodge read, well spaced too; if you missed you'd have likely SD'd from the looks of it.

painful because of Bayo I hope? well I did flub a lot, missed grabs because of the lag, but I managed to bring it back. Dolphin Slashing out of Bayo's combos is something I've been trying. The whole match I tried to get out safely, and it actually works... well sorta. I didn't get punished too bad from doing it, just tried to fastfall to the ledge. It did net me a kill off the top, which was sick. And getting air dodge reads are my specialty :D and yeah I might have SD'd, since I fastfell lol

 

[Bowserboy3]

painful because of Bayo I hope? well I did flub a lot, missed grabs because of the lag, but I managed to bring it back. Dolphin Slashing out of Bayo's combos is something I've been trying. The whole match I tried to get out safely, and it actually works... well sorta. I didn't get punished too bad from doing it, just tried to fastfall to the ledge. It did net me a kill off the top, which was sick. And getting air dodge reads are my specialty :D and yeah I might have SD'd, since I fastfell lol

Indeed; I use Bayonetta myself, as well as Marth, so it was a bitter-sweet moment lmao.

It was a very clever idea using Dolphin Slash to get away from some of her combos. I've also been doing this against Bayonetta's as Marth.

To be honest, I think Marth does pretty solidly against Bayonetta, if only because he plays the patient game. He's not always throwing hitboxes out asking to be punished with Witch Time.

That, and his hitbox durations in general being small also benefits him in terms of Witch Time.

It's for those two combined reasons why Cloud struggles in this MU in reality.

 

[Shaya]

To be honest, I think Marth does pretty solidly against Bayonetta, if only because he plays the patient game. He's not always throwing hitboxes out asking to be punished with Witch Time.

That, and his hitbox durations in general being small also benefits him in terms of Witch Time.

It's for those two combined reasons why Cloud struggles in this MU in reality.

There's nothing stopping Cloud from also playing the patient game against Bayo. he simply does it better too.
Hitbox durations being detrimental to Cloud is only an issue with inappropriate spacing.
Meanwhile his hitbox durations allow him to frame trap and more freely attempt to snuff out Bayonetta's movements. No one else can just jump nair oos against anything bayo pokes him with and get a free punish or a reset - other characters have to be significantly more respectful and be in better positions.


There's something nuanced about Bayo's animations in contrast to witch time I doubt many are thinking about proactively.
Bayo leaves her front foot out (neutral position - shield would extend further than this) during start up and then flips back (late counter window her legs aren't on the ground/low either; in other words dtilts and certain juggle positions are vulnerable to only 1/3rd of the window), and when she attacks her limbs extend significantly forward.
Preemptive: why you trying to attack a crouching bayo?
Cloud is able to just space stuff at a certain distance and Bayo has to take risk to do something about it. He is able to swing his sword in a way that frame trap dodges, witch time, cover attacks and be safe on power shield.
It's easier to take advantage of this as a swordie compared to everyone else though.

Our lack of auto cancels stop us from doing the same thing. We still have to reactively time our attacks because otherwise Bayo is perfectly capable of whiff punishing us for committing.

I genuinely believe Cloud beats Bayo (or at least doesn't lose) - because he still applies pressure for free without needing to play the 50/50 witch time game most others do.
Based Brawl Marth with Brawl MK hitboxes.

Off stage is probably the main area in which Bayo could argue the significance of enough to have the upper hand in the mu.

 

[Fephoenix]

Am I allowed to post links here to websites? XD A.K.A advertising.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Am I allowed to post links here to websites? XD A.K.A advertising.

What? No. Shoo.

 

[Fephoenix]

K. Just noticed the board was kind of dead.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Cool news: I'm taking some out of town training for my job, and I just found a mint condition copy of Shadow Dragon for the DS with the original case and booklet at the local GameStop! It looks like it's never been played, and I'm super stoked!

 

[Fephoenix]

... I cant even find a used one at my local GameStop. Congrats

 

[Vipermoon]

The next tier list is up. I'll paste it:

-TOP-
S:
A:
-HIGH-
B:
-MID-
C: ()
D:
-LOW-
E:
F:


Marth is 10th so top 10... I have a bunch of little opinions but the main things I want to stress are what I think is underrated. Those characters would be (top to bottom): Megaman, Lucario, Olimar, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, and Samus. Maybe Kirby.

Edit: actually I will mention what I think is overrated too and that's slightly Marth but definitely Corrin and Pit. Probably Wario and Pacman too.

 

[JayE]

Seeing in Top 10 is pretty crazy. He's come a long way since the start of the game.
I think he's Top 15, not top 10 though... although 10 and 15 aren't that far from each other.
is slept on. He's easily Top 30 imo. Most midtiers are slept on, but Roy especially
I can also see in mid tier someday

 

[Locuan]

Seeing in Top 10 is pretty crazy. He's come a long way since the start of the game.

Definitely, the changes did favor him really well.

Edit: actually I will mention what I think is overrated too and that's slightly Marth but definitely Corrin and Pit. Probably Wario and Pacman too.

I'm curious.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I see they overrated Cloud again. There's no eay he's better/more consistent than Mario, Sheik or Fox.
Top 10? Sure. Top 8? Yeah, alright.

Top 3? HELL no.

On topic, YEAH MARTH LET'S GO.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Seeing in Top 10 is pretty crazy. He's come a long way since the start of the game.
I think he's Top 15, not top 10 though... although 10 and 15 aren't that far from each other.
is slept on. He's easily Top 30 imo. Most midtiers are slept on, but Roy especially
I can also see in mid tier someday

At least you have mercy on us Roy players. Until Hyper or another notable player gets a breakthrough performance, we are doomed to stay in 44th.

 

[DariusM27]

I posted this in a different thread, but I'll post it here too.

Disclaimer -
Most of you guys already know I am the odd man out when it comes to tier lists. These are just my honest thoughts, just sharing them because this is a forum where I am able to share it.
I am aware that I probably don't have "compelling" arguments, and I don't dispute anyone who puts Marth in top tier - though I personally don't agree.

Tweek recently destroyed abunch of top players using DK, including MkLeo's Cloud.

(Recently on ZeRo's stream, ZeRo was using Lucina vs someone's DK - I don't remember who, and he was forced to constantly camp the ledge because Marcina gets absolutely recked by Dk on stage)

Think how many tier spots Bowser jumped after the Nairo vs Mr E game, and after Nairo started using Bowser more in general.

Some people debate that perhaps DK is better than Bowser.

I think the tier list is lagging far behind the actual strength of the characters in reality, and I think Marth is drastically over rated, while other characters are drastically under rated.

The tier list is created by the smash community. The smash community is made up of mostly of Zss, Ryu, Cloud, Sheik, Diddy, Mario, and Bayonetta mains, with the exception of three notable Marths. Only three.

Edit - and really, mainly one really really notable Marth, and two others who haven't quite shown Marth at that level yet.

What I'm saying is, people have a tendency to overrate other characters and underrate their own - that's very possibly what I am doing, but perhaps not - and since no one mains Marth...because either very few CAN or very few WANT to because of...reasons... - since no one mains Marth, that leaves lots of people to overrate the character.

That's what creates the general consensus that Marth is top tier. Because no one uses him, and Mk Leo is good.

The sad thing is that Marth is getting overrated while credit is being taken away from how impressive it is that Leo and Mr E have gotten the wins they did get.

And it's generally agreed on that Marth does well or at least 50/50 vs Fox. Here's Mr E getting destroyed by... some random guy who uses Fox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKeR-7Viuu0

I honestly think Marth can beat any character if played absolutely perfectly, because this is a very balanced game, but I also think that everyone is putting him in top tier now because ZeRo said so and because MkLeo is really good - which again - takes credit away from Leo, imo.

 

[Vipermoon]

What I'm saying is, people have a tendency to overrate other characters and underrate their own - that's very possibly what I am doing, but perhaps not - and since no one mains Marth...because either very few CAN or very few WANT to because of...reasons... - since no one mains Marth, that leaves lots of people to overrate the character.

This is actually a really good point.

 

[DariusM27]

This is actually a really good point.

Lol, it was bound to happen eventually.

I shall now resume to my regularly scheduled incoherency and passive aggressive rage salt.

Oh, btw I attended my first tourny in a long time. It was a local, I got 5th or 6th out of like 30 people. Any thoughts/comments are welcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIU4jiuk7V4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYYgkH1Nu9w

Those are pools matches.

 

[Vipermoon]

Sick movement, Darius.

Would you think Marth is good if he had this?: