Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Bowserboy3]

Fsmash gif with the fixed camera for you, Vipermoon.

Spoiler

Fun fact: That has more than 5 times the number of frames as the first fsmash gif (13 in the original to 70 in the new one), but took only about a tenth the time to make!

Unless anyone has more suggestions for improvements, I think that's going to be the final format for these.

Don't know why, but when I try to skip frame by frame in that last GIF, it skips some out (like, I go straight from 1 to 3, then to 5, and I also seem to skip out frame 7, 9, and 12), but I can still stop them on those frames if I pause the GIF from playing. Hopefully, it's just my browser (not to confident with the browser I am using right now, hopefully it should work right at home).

Edit: It seems it's only when I do it here on Smashboards; if I open it up in Gfycat, I can skip it manually frame by frame... who knows!

But yeah, this kind of format seems great, I think you'd be absolutely fine with that kind of format.

 

[Vipermoon]

68 frame animation! Damn his animations are so slow compared to previous games.

Anyway, thanks A_Kae. So I see that the only real hurtbox reduction is in height and his leg (for when he's doing the spin). I remember I missed a Dtilt on Lucina that easily should've hit and then got hit by the Fsmash. It makes sense why.

 

[A_Kae]

Yeah. For comparison it was a 50 frame animation in brawl and 49 in melee.

Usmash is something like ~80 frames in this game lol

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah. For comparison it was a 50 frame animation in brawl and 49 in melee.

Usmash is something like ~80 frames in this game lol

Wow. Usmash is definitely my least favorite cool down animation. And it makes no sense because relative to some of the other things, this is a fairly simple move.

 

[Halifax?]

So the real question right now is...

MKLeo vs. Mr. E

http://www.strawpoll.me/11546911

 

[Vipermoon]

So the real question right now is...

MKLeo vs. Mr. E

http://www.strawpoll.me/11546911

I chose MKLeo because of his safer pressure game and if you look at a player they both have experience against: Mr. R - MKLeo does better.

But I think Mr. E has more MU experience (and experience) which is very important.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Purely from a results and experience standpoint, i'd argue that Mr. E is the "better" Marth.

However, in terms of actual skill with the character, I would probably go with Leo. I'm excited now that Leo can travel; Canada Cup was a good example!

Up until about a month ago, I would have solidly said Leo, no question. But Mr. E has really been improving, so it makes the choice a lot tougher now.

Let's just say that Leo does still does things that make me go "wow!" and Mr. E still does a few things that make me go "why?". Both very skilled in their own rights, hence, them getting results.

 

[Halifax?]

As a spectator, MKLeo's Marth makes sense and closes out well or gets closed out. Mr. E's Marth can be so unpredictable, and if Mr. E doesn't blow someone out it's always a nail biter.

 

[JayE]

Leo's Marth plays super safe and patient against characters who can combo really well I think of that he's afraid to go up close against. Its also interesting how much he opts for down throw instead of f throw.
Although there were times where he almost choked the game away by making some predictable rolls and moves.
Marths who panic roll in predictable situations are a bit annoying to me, but then again no one plays perfectly

 

[Vipermoon]

You guys are spot-on with your comments. I think overall we got some good players. There is a little more fear in the word "Marth" in Smash 4 now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

What pleases me now, is that players seem now to be saying that Marth does have a favourable MU with Cloud (likely thanks to Leo at Canada Cup).

I've been saying it for months, so it makes me happy, but like anything in Smash, all we needed was some real evidence to point to.

Leo's games at Canada Cup were great in general. Anyone have any favourite moments?

 

[JayE]

I wasn't able to watch Canada Cup until the the Top 8. It may have not been the most exciting Marth gameplay to watch, but it shows how Marth can be played safe and patiently, although it did get pretty intense when it was last stock last hit. I think Ally just was burnt out from 2 sets in Grands and playing all those sets before. Ally kept it pretty close though, and had his moments. I remember a bunch of people and some top players complaining about how long it took. I do admit it kinda was ridiculous how long it took between matches with the coaching, and one of the games timed-out on Duck Hunt, which all the Anti-Duck Hunt people had even more evidence to remove the stage, lol. Nairo was complaining that it was a long and boring set, but I guarantee if that was Lucina, he wouldn't be complaining LOL
One moment that I remember was when M2k let two point blank Finishing Touches rip and landed them against Leo. Overall I'm happy Marth won the tournament. It was super close that last game, and up throw took the W.

 

[Bowserboy3]

To be fair, if taking a long time gets the job done, it's the way it should be played.

I hate to harp on about ZeRo, because not everything he says is gospel (which some people can't seem to get into their heads), but his recent video about "Picking Top Tiers/Playing to Win" is a good example.

I'm glad Leo doesn't play to please the crowd, so to speak. With a character like Marth, who in general, lacks a multitude of options like most of the top tiers, you have to play the best playstyle to win.

I think Mr E vs Pink Fresh at Glitch 2 ended in the same way (an Up Throw). That is a godsend for Marth. Without it, he would likely have a much harder time KO'ing. It essentially puts a cap on stocks. Marth goes from "I can KO you as early as 35% with correct spacing, and in general, I should be KO'ing you around the early 100% range, but if I am struggling, you won't be alive after around 160%".

Some characters do have a legitimately tough time KO'ing, as they lack real safe KO moves AND a kill throw (Pikachu comes to mind).

Marth has early tipper potential, and a KO throw. While his KO power is overall inconsistent and fluctuates between every game, the fact that he has a "stock cap" is a big help.

I always wonder if the Up Throw BKB increase was an intentional buff, or whether it was accidental. I feel that the balance team increased it along with the other throws to lower it's combo potential (like the other throws), but as we got Down Throw in return, it ended up being overall a big buff.

 

[JayE]

To be fair, if taking a long time gets the job done, it's the way it should be played.

I hate to harp on about ZeRo, because not everything he says is gospel (which some people can't seem to get into their heads), but his recent video about "Picking Top Tiers/Playing to Win" is a good example.

I'm glad Leo doesn't play to please the crowd, so to speak. With a character like Marth, who in general, lacks a multitude of options like most of the top tiers, you have to play the best playstyle to win.

I think Mr E vs Pink Fresh at Glitch 2 ended in the same way (an Up Throw). That is a godsend for Marth. Without it, he would likely have a much harder time KO'ing. It essentially puts a cap on stocks. Marth goes from "I can KO you as early as 35% with correct spacing, and in general, I should be KO'ing you around the early 100% range, but if I am struggling, you won't be alive after around 160%".

Some characters do have a legitimately tough time KO'ing, as they lack real safe KO moves AND a kill throw (Pikachu comes to mind).

Marth has early tipper potential, and a KO throw. While his KO power is overall inconsistent and fluctuates between every game, the fact that he has a "stock cap" is a big help.

I always wonder if the Up Throw BKB increase was an intentional buff, or whether it was accidental. I feel that the balance team increased it along with the other throws to lower it's combo potential (like the other throws), but as we got Down Throw in return, it ended up being overall a big buff.

Yeah, its whatever you feel is going to get you the W. You make whatever works to work.
It makes sense that Leo would play safer against Mario, who is a lethal character up close. I also loved how much he used jab to f tilt for kills. From what I've seen Leo isn't normally that patient, but he adjusted his playstyle. Even me, a generally aggressive player, would probably have played more patiently to have a better chance to win if I felt like that was what I needed to do.
For me, its different because I don't play Smash for a career, but its always essential to play a character you have fun with. I'm sure most of the people who use top tiers enjoy playing smash in general. Because if you're not having fun or enjoying it, why are you doing it?
And Marth's up throw is a great tool for him, especially since Marth is known to have trouble killing sometimes with Marthritis. The up throw's KB and the combination or rage allows Marth to get kills with a grab and not having to commit as much to a smash attack or something.

 

[Vipermoon]

I finally watched Leo at Canada Cup last night and wow, now there's no doubt who is best. There's no way Mr. E can contend with M2K and especially Ally the way that Leo did. Leo's Cloud even destroys M2K's.

Yes some matches did take long and but I didn't find the gameplay boring. That's probably because it's so interesting to see the most optimal Marth make decisions. I found it really interesting that he was able to timeout Ally's Mario for three reasons: 1) it's Ally 2) it's Mario 3) I've never seen Marth play the timeout game

I definitely don't think Marth beats Cloud, Bowserboy. Remember that Leo also destroyed M2K's Cloud with his own Cloud. I'll say that it's even.

Mario seems even as well and I'm sure all the Mario players are saying Marth wins. But remember near the end of Grands when M2K gave Ally some advice? And then you saw Ally play slightly different and a more in control. I think Ally started out playing the MU a little incorrect. Knowing M2K understands Melee Marth more than anyone, this is what I think M2K basically told Ally: play the bait and punish game and use that to get through Marth's wall.

 

[JayE]

Marth vs Cloud is such a fun matchup imo, unless the Cloud is camping the whole game or something. Cloud is such a scary character that if its a really good Cloud, Marth can easily get overwhelmed onstage. But then again Marth can combo Cloud pretty well and vice versa. but offstage is where Marth excels of course.
Thats like the only thing Marth has the upperhand in in the MU; I've gotten wrecked for most of the game against good Clouds, and then I steal the game away with a clutch gimp or edgeguard. So the matchup can be pretty volatile.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I definitely don't think Marth beats Cloud, Bowserboy. Remember that Leo also destroyed M2K's Cloud with his own Cloud. I'll say that it's even.

Ahh, perhaps I phrased my initial comment wrong.

While it is true I personally feel Marth could beat Cloud, in regards to other players, the opinion has definitely shifted from "Nah, Marth struggles with Cloud" to "Actually, Marth can deal with Cloud quite well". Perhaps using the word "favourable" was the wrong choice.

Marth definitely has options to deal with Cloud though, so it makes sense that he can go at least even with him.

 

[Nairo]

I wasn't able to watch Canada Cup until the the Top 8. It may have not been the most exciting Marth gameplay to watch, but it shows how Marth can be played safe and patiently, although it did get pretty intense when it was last stock last hit. I think Ally just was burnt out from 2 sets in Grands and playing all those sets before. Ally kept it pretty close though, and had his moments. I remember a bunch of people and some top players complaining about how long it took. I do admit it kinda was ridiculous how long it took between matches with the coaching, and one of the games timed-out on Duck Hunt, which all the Anti-Duck Hunt people had even more evidence to remove the stage, lol. Nairo was complaining that it was a long and boring set, but I guarantee if that was Lucina, he wouldn't be complaining LOL
One moment that I remember was when M2k let two point blank Finishing Touches rip and landed them against Leo. Overall I'm happy Marth won the tournament. It was super close that last game, and up throw took the W.

I definitely said it was a very long set, I enjoyed it because they had some tense games, I didn't find it as hype as other sets because BOTH players were playing the same way the WHOLE 3 sets. Ally jumping from the ledge literally 30 times double jumping airdoding into leos anything after that etc. They werent changing it up which was weird because usually theyd change it up if players like them notice that. Obviously its cool that Marth won but don't go assuming something silly like "if it was Lucina he would have like it XD!!" lmao I like watching Marth/both of them, if it were the same exact set but with Lucina I'd still say the same thing. You might be focusing on end result rather than things that happened during the games, which is why I was like dang it was like watching 15 games of the same kind of set ups and reads + the random super long coaching (that was the only thing worth complaining about from that set though). Obviously winning by taking it slow doesn't make your win less of a win. So by saying that it was a long set, I'm not mad or anything because how defensive they were at times, its a good strat and if it gets you the win then ayy hype! I've watched longer sets than this one haha!

I'll just say it again so you remember. Not liking a set as much as someone does NOT = complaining lol. They both had some good plays in the set. All I said was that it was a long set and there wasn't as much adapting as I usually see from both of them but they still played well.

Edit: Also hi Marth social/general thread don't attack me for using Lucina (messing around of course)

 

[Bowserboy3]

Tfw top players search themselves up, hue.

Nairo - these are the badlands, Lucina players aren't allowed here. Be gone!

(jokes. Marth and Lucina grow off of eachother's development, so any player is welcome! Come share some of your Lucina opinions sometime)

---

On the topic of complaining, I can understand spectators complaining, but when they give the players grief for it, it's completely out of order. Some players do this for a living, so they aren't going to play a super offensive Sonic just to please the crowd if a campy one that times people out works much better, for example; they're playing to win.

In a sense, Leo was playing Marth in a way that Ally didn't know how to contend with (or just straight up couldn't contend with), and thus, was able to time him out. Leo's smart; he isn't going to change something if it works.

Lower level example: if I know I can just keep spamming Ftilt against a player on the ledge because they don't know how to deal with it, I'll keep doing it. The old saying of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" springs to mind (on another topic, Ftilt is so busted lol).

Marth doesn't have the huge variety of options the top tier character have. If his player finds something that can get into the head of the opponent, they need to push it as far as it will go.

Luckily, Marth is in a position where what he has is good as it is, and works on anybody. The way his kit is designed allows him to perform the way he wants to in almost any situation, as opposed to having to change what he does on a matchup basis (For example, Mega Man would have to play differently against Link [Hylian Shield is nice], as opposed to other characters). He can change his overall playstyle when he wants to (hence why you have Mr E who plays a little more up close and offensive, as opposed to Leo who plays much more patiently), but he can play the way he wants to in most situations.

---

I also want to thank Vipermoon for a Dancing Blade tip (relevant puns!) I read from you a while back; I've been getting tipper hits of DB's 4th neutral hit, and KO'ing with it on a very consistent basis now by using the 3rd down hit before it. The angle is just perfect for it.

Edit: You dropped the "64" from your name - That confused me for a moment!

 

[JayE]

I definitely said it was a very long set, I enjoyed it because they had some tense games, I didn't find it as hype as other sets because BOTH players were playing the same way the WHOLE 3 sets. Ally jumping from the ledge literally 30 times double jumping airdoding into leos anything after that etc. They werent changing it up which was weird because usually theyd change it up if players like them notice that. Obviously its cool that Marth won but don't go assuming something silly like "if it was Lucina he would have like it XD!!" lmao I like watching Marth/both of them, if it were the same exact set but with Lucina I'd still say the same thing. You might be focusing on end result rather than things that happened during the games, which is why I was like dang it was like watching 15 games of the same kind of set ups and reads + the random super long coaching (that was the only thing worth complaining about from that set though). Obviously winning by taking it slow doesn't make your win less of a win. So by saying that it was a long set, I'm not mad or anything because how defensive they were at times, its a good strat and if it gets you the win then ayy hype! I've watched longer sets than this one haha!

I'll just say it again so you remember. Not liking a set as much as someone does NOT = complaining lol. They both had some good plays in the set. All I said was that it was a long set and there wasn't as much adapting as I usually see from both of them but they still played well.

Edit: Also hi Marth social/general thread don't attack me for using Lucina (messing around of course)

Ah ok my mistake, I just thought that because you know... the waifus. lol. And you're right there wasn't that much adapting
Thanks for clearing that up Nairo.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Maybe slightly underrated, but Japan updated their PR's:

https://twitter.com/harukisb/status/794179749358645248

Fuwa getting that rep in.

 

[Y2Kay]

If you're willing, come speak~

https://smashboards.com/threads/mas...ion-9-donkey-kong-marcina-10-31-11-06.438657/

 

[Vipermoon]

I always wonder if the Up Throw BKB increase was an intentional buff, or whether it was accidental. I feel that the balance team increased it along with the other throws to lower it's combo potential (like the other throws), but as we got Down Throw in return, it ended up being overall a big buff.

I forgot to address this. Uthrow was definitely an intentional buff. When Smash 4 came out, Marth had very few kill moves. All of his tipper aerials, Utilt, and Dolphin Slash were very weak. And Dancing Blade knockback values and angles were set-up in a way that made getting tipper finishers really difficult.

Fthrow - huge nerf. Marth would be broken or at least top tier with his old Fthrow in a balanced, "everybody sucks" game like Smash 4. With Smash 4 hitstun and this being his lowest end lag throw, it would literally combo forever.
Dthrow - nerf imo. His original Dthrow would have had some sick combos, it's a perfect mix between Cloud's Bthrow and Dthrow. I might've called it a buff if rage didn't exist, but rage ruins Fthrow and Dthrow even at 0% because those throws are super high base kb and very little growth.
Bthrow - buff. His old one was like Roy's Bthrow. The Smash 4 Bthrow has the perfect angle for setting up edgeguards and tech/knockdown reads (on platforms too). It does still have that considerable end lag.

If Marth kept his old Fthrow, his grab game would be better than current Marth even if they removed his other three throws from game.

 

[JayE]

Yeah if Marth kept his old f throw at the start of Smash 4 that would have been awesome, but probably nerfed lol. Forward throw is a satisfying throw when you get a followup. Especially in Melee, that throw was so fast and tricky.
I just miss doing up throw to up tilt/up air, I think up throw has a sick animation for combos. And old d throw was great for edgeguards and sending opponents off at an advantageous angle. But I'm glad that Marth now has a pretty reliable kill throw with it in Smash 4. Overall Marth has a pretty good grab game, and his grab range of course isn't a ridiculous as it was in Melee but its still good in range - I think better than some other character's grab range, like WFT or Robin.

 

[Bowserboy3]

If I'm remembering correctly, Marth's grab range in this game is literally about average.

I'm an honest person - I'll settle fine for average as opposed to not enough (Roy's is exactly the same animation for example, but his grab range is noticeably worse. Poor Roy).

 

[JayE]

Yeah Marth's grab range isn't bad at all. Marth does have pretty long arms.

 

[Vipermoon]

I have tested Roy's grab range to be slightly worse than Marth. Just like Melee. One thing that isn't just like Melee is Roy's rolls in this game go the same distance as Marth's. Roy has an amazing roll because since he doesn't have to unsheathe his sword after it like Marth does, he saves 1 frame in end lag while still retaining the same invincibility (and distance as I mentioned).

 

[JayE]

One of the thing I wish Marth kept from Melee was the reverse dolphin slash strong hitbox, and Roy's old down tilt that sent opponents upward. I think that could have opened even more combos for Roy if he had it in Smash 4

 

[Doomblaze]

If you're willing, come speak~

I'm in the process of making a greninja vs marth matchup guide for the marth discord. My friend plays greninja so I get a lot of practice vs him, but I don't own the game so I don't have any way of testing what's true or not =( I want to test a bunch more stuff out before I finalize it, which will prolly take a few weeks since we can only play once every week or so

 

[N 2the ayr]

Apparently you can cancel Marth's jab by holding down and away from the direction you're facing. This looks interesting but from what I've read (which isn't much lol) it doesn't seem like there's any real followups to this tech.

 

[JayE]

Apparently you can cancel Marth's jab by holding down and away from the direction you're facing. This looks interesting but from what I've read (which isn't much lol) it doesn't seem like there's any real followups to this tech.

Yeah I've saw this a few days ago through the Marcina Discord. Apparently Izaw discovered it. I haven't tried it, but seems really cool.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's an easier way to hit someone with Jab 1 twice which is useful sometimes. It's also good for attacking a shield with Jab and using this to stop their punish attempt. In both of these cases, the benefit comes from whatever frames you save over trying to Jab 1 twice by yourself.

 

[N 2the ayr]

It's be an easier way to hit someone with Jab 1 twice which is useful sometimes. It's also good for attacking a shield with Jab and using this to stop their punish attempt. In both of these cases, the benefit comes from whatever frames you save over trying to Jab 1 twice by yourself.

Yeah now that you mention it this seems like it would be a pretty good option to do on someone's shield or just out of shield in general. It's decently fast and I could see myself trying to wall with it too.

I really don't know anything about this tech so far and I haven't been able to test stuff, but do you know if you can even get any follow ups off this?

 

[Vipermoon]

Edit: You guys wanna know the most stylish thing to do after Jab 1? Jab 1 into turnaround Dsmash (for when you think they'll air dodge into the ground). The tipper back hit is more common than you think because Dsmash is pretty low range.

Yeah now that you mention it this seems like it would be a pretty good option to do on someone's shield or just out of shield in general. It's decently fast and I could see myself trying to wall with it too.

I really don't know anything about this tech so far and I haven't been able to test stuff, but do you know if you can even get any follow ups off this?

What do you mean? This only does multiple jabs. Anything else is typical Jab 1 "combos". Which means Jab 1 into tilts, smashes, aerials, grab, dancing blade, dolphin slash, air dodge reads, and attack reads (jab 1 into shield or counter). But like I said, this stuff doesn't get affected because Jab 1's end lag doesn't change.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Yeah I've saw this a few days ago through the Marcina Discord. Apparently Izaw discovered it. I haven't tried it, but seems really cool.

Izaw discovered it?

Art of Marth incoming plz?

 

[Bowserboy3]

A_Kae , I was just wondering, how are things with the hurtbox visualisations? Were you planning on doing any more at all? Have you been secretly compiling some together?

Just curious; the others were really good.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Wow, triple posting is quite rare.

Izaw discovered it?

Art of Marth incoming

Well, I wasn't wrong!

 

[CURRY]

Wow, triple posting is quite rare.



Well, I wasn't wrong!

dam.

Marth bubble visual is so beautiful.

 

[JayE]

The Art of Character videos are always fun to watch. As an experienced Marth player, I already know most of the things in the Art of Marth video, it doesn't mean I don't enjoy it.
Glad to see Marth on the rise again.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Just thought I'd share this with all of you.