Secrets of The Seven Sages: Link's Brainstorming Thread, Complete AT list and Combos

[Drigo Toes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9U1G1Xdws

If Ness or Lucas tries to PK Thunder you near the edge you should do this too if you can get the boomerang to reach them without hitting the PK Thunder and cancelling it.

Ness or Lucas normally try to gimp Link with Pk Thunder; then, when you're returning to the edge, you can throw your Boomerang and gimp Lucas/Ness (or, in the worst case, destroy the pk thunder instead )

 

[Jeos]

well, that's what is being analyzed, the properties of the gale boomerang

I've gathered some info and testing but I wanna check it a little more

regarding the pk thunder, you can destroy it, or hit lucas/ness with a projectile, because they never use it with both players on the stage, so follow drigo's advice

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Nice vid Arcade! I really do love that stuff.
So we've established that it can be used against Ness and Lucas during their Up-B on stage, and we now know about Zelda's side-B as well. Anything else? I'm sure there must be heaps more. It doesn't just have to be while their onstage, I'm sure that off stage some recoveries would also be really messed up if they get pushed, again Ness and Lucas come to mind.

 

[Jeos]

well, regarding gale pushing lucas/ness out of the stage, well that doesn't work, unless they are to far from the stage to recover when the wind pushes them away, but...

first thing, lucas' recovery it's different from ness' recovery.

lucas recover far than ness (it's like Link vs gay recovery), and the properties of the PK thunder 1 and 2 are different as well.

lucas pk thunder 1 (when he sends the psi ball) can get through almost anything because it's not a direct impact move. Instead, ness pk thunder 1 has a solid hit, so whatever hits that ball will destroy it causing ness to die if it's away from the ledge.

now lucas pk thunder 2 (when the ball hit lucas and it's send flying) it's a multihit move whit powerful knockback with the last hit, on the other hand, ness pk thunder 2 gives a direct hit on all it's animation.

well, you can test it more, but for lucas or ness it's almost imposible to fall on gale guarding/gale pushing, because they'll never recover at the stage's level, they will recover from above, or from the very below, also their mobility on the air let them have one of the best aerial options on and out of the stage.

all of this preview it's from my personal experience with a lucas/ness user from chile (a good player here, not some random guy) so maybe this will not apply there because of the change on playstyle but it's what I can give in advise, feel free to test it if you like

 

[Huggles828]

Hmmm, it can be used against Lucas, Ness, and Zelda, and I've done it to people playing all of them myself, but honestly, it's one of those things I just don't think is very practical. It does also work against Dedede when he uses his b up towards the stage and can mess him up if he was aiming very precisely, by the way. It's just too hard to space that properly , and I don't know how often Ness, Lucas, or Zelda are going to be hanging around the edge like that and not approaching (well, Ness and Lucas will I'm sure, Zelda maybe).

Not that I don't think this is unusable, haha, I just think it's going to sink into the realm of most of Link's tricks; situational.

 

[Rizen]

Not that I don't think this is unusable, haha, I just think it's going to sink into the realm of most of Link's tricks; situational.

^That goes without saying. It's not hard to space once you get used to it and works vs many characters- provided they allow free falling vulnerability by an edge . Lucas/Ness/Zelda are the easiest and Zelda falls sharply after Din's fire so Link can gale push>edge guard any time she use it in the air. What I wanted to look into further was tilted gale pushing vs recoveries like Ike, Wolf, DDD (you mentioned) and other's that fall steeply. Kirby's final cutter can be pushed. C Falcon's ForwardB (in the air) 'bounces' the wind like when it hits a player which allows a free hit before he lands.
Also as shown in the Mario match, the wind pushes recoveries out of reach of the ledge. This I think will be the most useful wind gimp because Link can angle the boomerang down where many characters start there upB from.
Wind also has a strong effect on Tether recoveries before reeling in. Which isn't of use to us.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It does work, but honestly, it's pretty limited in usage.

We can learn and use it for the situations where it pops up, but we're talking about Lucas, Ness, and Zelda...Zelda is pretty uncommon as is, and other two I would rather gale guard.

 

[Scabe]

I like this trick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9siOW-c0l5k&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

 

[IYM!]

that AT, looks usefull, realy useful, ths can give us new strategies, and combos, this will help to aproach better to the enemie


nice found from PKrockin (or just put it in a video)

nice job for Scabe for show us

 

[Jeos]

I find more useful that trick scabe, and also I never said that it doesn´t work at all

I said that it won't work 80% of the time against lucas/ness and the punishing for it it's a stock loss (I didn't said that before) so, if you want it to work, lucas/ness (I don't have experience against zelda) he need to be on a 70 degree angle (35° up plus 35° down) for the boomerang to effectively push them away enough to prevent them to recover.

but lucas/ness recover in those places like... never, or when they do it the gale push isn't strong enough to get the kill.

that is with my own experience and the price for trying to get it is a stock so I don't recomend that.

I know I lack zelda experience, but from what I've seen, zelda do fall on this and she's effectively affected by the gale push, so I would say zelda is a better opcion, not to say that when she finishes the explosion could send link upwards so he can recover from farther

 

[Arcade]

I like this trick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9siOW-c0l5k&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

that AT, looks usefull, realy useful, ths can give us new strategies, and combos, this will help to aproach better to the enemie


nice found from PKrockin (or just put it in a video)

nice job for Scabe for show us

Yeah I found it, or at least I don't know of anyone else who has done it. It's kinda cool but I don't know how/when/if it would be useful. One of the problems is if the bomb hits the opponent directly you get hit too. But I suck with Link so if someone who's good has an idea that would be cool. Maaaaybe if someone is trying to approach you aerially and you're at the apex of your jump with a bomb and you do this, they get hit, you can try to usmash or instant dash attack them? I dunno.

(I didn't even realize I made a "Link for Top Tier" joke in my last video too. lol)

 

[Drigo Toes]

It's really interesting (i talk about the bomb technique). Surely you can use in mindgames; but, maybe another use of it can be in the edge... make the bomb explote with you in perfect shield in the edge can be a good form to presseaure a opponent in the ledge.

 

[Rizen]

The best use for wind pushing opponents is to edge guard from across the stage, instead of something like SHing an arrow. The ledge snap distance makes it very difficult to angle down accurately because the recovering opponent must be far enough when the wind hits that they don't auto grab the edge. The shallow angles Link throws his boomerang miss most low recoveries.
If Link is across the stage the wind can gimp recoveries that overshoot the ledge or (interesting) pull them in and slightly up which setups a quick free hit (Ftilt, etc). This mostly applies to ForwardB recoveries.
Ike's UpB eats the wind, by the way.
The wind push spacing is good to know, I've used it several times for gimps, but yeah it's situational. It can substitute for quicker, more difficult, gale guarding but is more for surprise long distance spacing wrecking gimps.
Keep in mind that many boomerang KOs aren't how you planned them.

<><><><><>
I cover landings with bombs a lot. It's good to mix in with throwing a bomb down>Nair/Dair. Sometimes I'll gently drop a bomb while falling backwards so it explodes in front of me. Bomb down throws are directly under Link, drops are where his hand is in front, and invincibombs fall slightly behind Link. Bomb tactics are important.

 

[Drigo Toes]

Ike's UpB eats the wind, by the way.

Not ever... I gimp Ikes with the boomerang, but it must be in certain angle.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Fair enough then...
Just to clarify, when I said that Lucas and Ness came to mind when talking about pushing them with the boomerang to stuff up their recoveries, I was just thinking about pushing them when they are using their Up-B off stage, so that you push them into the PK thunder prematurely as they're circling around, you know, so instead of it hitting them towards the stage, it hits them down. Anyway, it was just a passing thought.

Actually, all this talk about wind gimps has already helped my Toon. Just yesterday I was versing a Ness, he hit me off stage, I did the amazing Bair double jump Dair recovery which lets you recover higher and farther, he was standing at the edge and sent out a PK thunder to deal some damage on my way back down, so I Dair'd from way up and landed beside him which pushed him off the edge. It was a fresh stock too XD.

And yeah, the whole bomb thing, Arcade knows what he's talking about. I've actually seen that vid before btw. You'd have to hit them with the explosion of the bomb when it hits the ground in order for it to be useful. Which doesn't rule it out or anything. It's very possible and quite easy to set something like that up. I'm just saying that it would have to be used properly. It doesn't help that Link's bomb explosion isn't that big, but with good spacing, I'm sure it would help.

 

[Rizen]

Actually, all this talk about wind gimps has already helped my Toon. Just yesterday I was versing a Ness, he hit me off stage, I did the amazing Bair double jump Dair recovery which lets you recover higher and farther, he was standing at the edge and sent out a PK thunder to deal some damage on my way back down, so I Dair'd from way up and landed beside him which pushed him off the edge. It was a fresh stock too XD.

Good work! I wish Link's Dair had wind.
--------------

There are tons of variations and mix-ups for bombs covering landings. Bomb tactics are most of the 'not 90% worthless' tricks Link has. Using 'C' to throw them is important.

 

[Rapax]

Concerning how difficult it is to pull the demonic Zair off and bearing in mind that every link player might have an interest in knowing this (well, most will know this already, but anyways^^): Why is the arrow nowhere mentioned as ledge option?

I read F-Air, Demonic Zair, D-Air and the usual. But no special moves. Or did I overread them? :o

Anyways, you can shoot an arrow from the ledge. Its much easier then the demonic Zair and has a longer range.

So when the OP says that the demonic zair is Links best ledge option in range, it should also mention the arrow (and obviously the boomerang, which is a lot slower though).

Sorry if this is "spam" or something, because everyone knows or because it isn't worth to be mentioned, but I wanted to point that out anyways

 

[Drigo Toes]

What is Demonic Zair?

 

[Rapax]

I assume you didn't read the OP?^^

"Demonic Zair
How to Perform: Grab the Ledge, Hit away from the ledge, Instantly DI back towards the ledge, Instantly Double Jump towards under the lip and Instantly use Zair.
Effect: Link will move away from the ledge, Jump right up against the lower lip part and use Zair, then return to the Stage using Zair without the Zair turning into a tether and grabbing the ledge.
Note: This is possible to do with Link, it's just really hard (don't worry if you mess it up, simply Up-B and you will be fine). If you find yourself Tethering instead of Zairing, you will either need to DI back towards stage sooner of Jump later. If you find yourself Zairing but you don't jump high enough to get back on stage, you will need to Jump sooner. This is a good surprise attack and a very safe way to return on stage because of the spacing and cancelled lag. It also obviously has more range then most of your attacks when returning, so if your opponent is expecting another move and takes an extra step back, the Demonic Zair will do the job nicely.
Stages: Battle Field, Delfino Plaza, Pirate Ship, Norfair, Halberd, Spear Pillar, Castle Siege, Distant Planet, Smashville, New Pork City, Hanenbow, Temple, Jungle Japes, Corneria and Brinstar."

In short: You pull yourself away from the ledge and land on the stage while doing a Z-Air.
I find it really hard to do.

 

[Rizen]

I've never seen demonic Zair used in a match.

 

[IYM!]

i never heard about demoniac Zair, can you show a video or some pics please?

 

[Drigo Toes]

I saw one once a time xD...

I didnt know the name; but i knew how to perform it :3

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@Rapax: Yeah this isn't a guide or anything, so it's not expected that I'd say every one of Link's options on the edge, just the lesser known ones or the ones that require specific timing or stuff like that. So things like specials, well sure, I mean that's just presumed knowledge. Anyway, as it turns out, bringing it up meant a few people learnt about the DZ. It's up to you if you want to use it or not, it's a bit risky. I mean, you can make it back if you stuff it up, but you'd be risking a stage spike or something if you failed more than once in a row. It's like many of Link's options off stage, it's just a bit risky and requires practice.
(Oh, and there aren't any vids of Link performing it, just one or two with Toon. If you want I'll find them, but it'd be easier if you just performed it yourselves, it isn't too hard after all.)

 

[Huggles828]

I think I've seen Samuses do it a good bit, but I've never really seen Links do it a whole lot. Can you do it while pressing down to let go of the edge, like you can use either down or back to use a fair off the ledge?

 

[Jeos]

you can try to jump from the tether recovery anymation into a zair.

I don't remember the name og the technique but, when you're grabbing the ledge, let go and use zair, when the claw attach to the edge you can fast fall and instantly jump to get higher and be more comfortable to land whatever move you like (it doesn't work if you wasted your 2nd jump).

so basically you have problems with the DZ, you can jump from a tether instead

 

[Rapax]

It's up to you if you want to use it or not, it's a bit risky.

Yeah, just as with most AT's
It's always up to the player whether he uses it or not.

Just wanted to throw it out

By the way: I like this guide

 

[Ryos4]

K well its not really an AT or anything but i was wondering if anyone has ever shielded their own bomb explosion near your opponent with their opponent getting hit by the bomb and then directly after that jump into Dair?

Earlier today i had a match vs a Yoshi who was around 110 or something and it ended up killing him. It was completely on accident, but i think i might start attempting to do it. The knock back for a held bomb is pretty weak making it easy to string together. But then again you might as well just blow both of you up so you can just ride the explosion too creating nearly the same opportunity. Only thing is you get hits stun.

 

[Huggles828]

Hmm, I don't think the hitstun would be long enough to string it together like that consistently, but I do remember seeing tricks where you throw the bomb down, fast fall past it and PS it to kinda cover your landing. Actually, I thought that was posted kinda recently on here.

 

[Ryos4]

Well what i did, didnt require you to throw the bomb. And if you powershielded the blast you have even less shield stun. Im not saying a true combo or anything, but i was able to do it pretty quickly so my thoughts is that it might be worth attempting if you find yourself in a situation where you are holding a bomb and shielding already when it explodes.

 

[Arcade]

^ I don't think the bomb has enough hitstun to allow you to combo a shorthop dair out of a powershield, so at high percents the bomb would probably knock them away too far, and at low percents I wouldn't risk missing a dair just for some damage when dropping shield and doing a utilt or usmash would be faster and safer.

Hmm, I don't think the hitstun would be long enough to string it together like that consistently, but I do remember seeing tricks where you throw the bomb down, fast fall past it and PS it to kinda cover your landing. Actually, I thought that was posted kinda recently on here.

Yeah, this: Link's most amazingly useful technique

 

[Ryos4]

They dont go very high from a held bomb blast. At about 114%, yoshi only flew like lower platform of BF height.

 

[TimeTemporal]

A flashing red bomb would kinda tip them off to shield it, though.
I've done something kinda similar; footstool jump with a bomb in hand, then throw it down at them and dair. The bomb would then launch 'em into the dair.
Does this work better?

 

[Ryos4]

If you were going to go that route, might as well go for a bombstool. Dair might come out too slowly at certain percents with a dthrown bomb.

 

[TimeTemporal]

This is different than a bombstool. Your setting them up for a dair combo in this. The bomb is used to bring them to the dair.

 

[Ryos4]

Bomb stool to Dair is basically the same as dthrow bomb to Dair. Except its more reliable.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Bomb stool to Dair is basically the same as dthrow bomb to Dair. Except its more reliable.

If Dair doesn't kill or you can to save it so it doesn't stale, you can also fall a sourspot nair into a jab lock.

Bombs are fun. ^_^

 

[bearer_of_the_triforce]

Good tip for playing Falco/Fox/ (*Not sure about wolf)

If link crouches, he can block Falco/wolf*/Fox's lasers indefinitely with his shield. It's very good for the beginning of the match--using this trick, you can force them to close in, which means much less trouble with the spammy projectiles. Of course, the star foxies are just as bad when they come up close...^_^ lol

Warning thingy: When he blocks the laser with his shield, he gets pushed back a little bit. If you keep blocking, you'll fall off and have to grab the edge. It's no problem at all, just posting this just so you know...

 

[Huggles828]

If link crouches, he can block Falco/wolf*/Fox's lasers indefinitely with his shield. It's very good for the beginning of the match--using this trick, you can force them to close in, which means much less trouble with the spammy projectiles. Of course, the star foxies are just as bad when they come up close...^_^ lol

Haha, actually, both Fox and Falco can hit Link in the face with lasers when they jump, even if you duck, so that doesn't work. All of the Star Fox characters give Link a ton of trouble (I don't think Wolf's as bad as the other two though).

 

[Beat11]

True but here is a funny way to outcamp the spacies using only the Hshield. Gain the damage percentage/stock lead and use the Hylain shield to block any low aimed lasers and powershield all lasers aimed at your head. If your are good at this, they should not be able to hit you and be force to approach.

I could just imagine how freaking funny it would be if you camped them like that. That's TrollzGold right there. i wanna see someone do it.

 

[Dyclone]

I learned how to Bdacus ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcDLKBJyQzk ), if you press up on the C stick, you'll buffer a Dash attack. Today after I learned some characters can't jump from B-throw and Fthrow (Bthrow> Fthrow though F throw has better follow ups) and but I only find it possible to Bdacus from Fthrow, some characters are forced to land, others have the ability to jump near ground, it doesn't work at all for some... these are not true combos. These arent useful on character that are sent flying as they can DI away from you. The Bdacus can be used to rack up damage and dash attack can lead into juggles and strings.
I used two controllers to test this
Forced Landing
Near Ground
Barely Works
Doesn't work too well
Doesn't work at all
Fthrow
Mario - Bdacus/? - Can (barely) escape. Just jump.
DK - Bdacus - dash attack only works if he didn't jump- He goes a bit high but it can still be pulled off
Link - Bdacus/Dash attack - It works well on him... lol
Samus - ?Bdacus?- Can escape if she wanted to. Just jump.
ZSS - Dash attack/Bdacus - you really have to make sure you do this quickly as her jump gets her out of range quickly
Kirby - Bdacus - I honestly expected this to completely fail, but the Usmash's first hit can knock him into the third hit, otherwise, it fails.
Fox - Bdacus/dash attack/Grab? - Fox has to go through 4 frames of hard landing lag giving us more time to attack, if he shields then you can get a grab
Pikachu - Dash attack?/?Bdacus?-This thing goes way too far, Dash attack barely gets him and usually will miss. The Bdacus will be late and Pikachu can escape before you can really move
Marth -Bdacus - Marth (barely) escapes. Just jump. Dash attack will give a red spark(don't know name) if he doesn't move at all.
Gaw - Bdacus - Dash attack will miss since it goes too far and Gaw can easily counterattack or jump away
Luigi - ಠ_ಠ - He goes too far for Dash attack and once he flips, he's out. BDacus won't won't reach him in time
Diddy Kong -Bdacus - he goes too far for Dash attack and Bdacus will only work if diddy doesn't buffer a jump
Zelda - Bdacus - it all depends on what Zelda does after hitstun. As long as she didn't jump, then you can get the hits in
Shiek - Bdacus/dash attack- Same as Zss
Pit -?Dashattack?/Dacus - Same as DK
Meta Knight - Dash attack.../Bdacus - Bdacus can hit MK out of his jump, and dash attack won't hit MK unless moves towards you
Falco -Bdacus - He goes to far for dash attack. He can counter Bdacus though... if he expects it...
Squitle - Bdacus - Most light characters just go too far squirtle is not an exception. BDacus works but only if squitle doesn't jump
Ivysaur- Bdacus..../?Dash attack? - he flies too far for dash attattack, in order for it to work, he must move forward. Bdacus only works if ivysaur doesn't jump.
Charizard - Dash attack../Bdacus - Same as DK, you can be counterattacked... if expected. Dash attack will miss if Charizard moves back.
Ike - Dash Attack/Bdacus - I prefer dash attack as it is faster and Ike has very little time to react to it. I'm not to sure about this but i think if Ike dodges, you will still hit him.
Snake -Bdacus/Dash attack- Use Bdacus, Dash attack doesn't send Snake far at all.
Peach - ಠ_ಠ - You can try Bdacus but she flies too high, she'll only get hit if she doesn't jump or float
Yoshi -Bdacus - Yoshi flies too high for dash attack, and with it's mobility, it can easily move out of the way of Usmash. It will only hit if yoshi doesn't move too much or DJ.
Ganondorf Dash attack/Bdacus- again, I prefer dash attack. If ganon ends up landing, he'll go though 5 frames of hard landing lag. It doesn't make much of a difference
SoPo - Bdacus- Popo really goes pretty far but not that far. Bdacus will hit as long as Sopo doesn't move away or jump
King Dedede -dash attack/Bdacus- Same as meta knight... lol.
Wolf - Dash attack/Bdacus/...grab... - unlike fox, wolf does not undergo hard landing lag so getting another grab would be harder. He lands just as Dash attack hits. He has the ability to shield Bdacus.
Lucario - Bdacus - He goes too far for Dash Attack and Lucario can counterattack your Bdacus
Ness - Bdacus - Same as Lucario

Spoiler

Sonic - Bdacus - He goes low enough for the initial hit. Basically, same as Kirby
Bowser - Bdacus/Dash attack - Just like Ike, he doesn't have many options, but once he jumps, he's out.
Wario - Bdacus - Doesn't work to well since he goes so far, and is out of hitstun when in midair. Just as long as get gets caught in the first hit, it should be fine.
Toon Link Bdacus - Same as Wario
R.O.B. - Bdacus - Same as Wario
Olimar - Bdacus - Same as Wario
Captain Falcon - Bdacus/Dash attack - It's possible for CF to escape from dash attack if he jumps away
Jigglypuff - Bdacus - Same as Wario... meh.
Lucas - Bdacus - Same as Wario. I wish i could say more but it's just so stale.
Yeah, I guess I created another Link gimmick, haha.
I wasn't too sure where to post this, I hope it's the right place