Secrets of The Seven Sages: Link's Brainstorming Thread, Complete AT list and Combos

[army man]

nice! the colors were a little over the top, but you got the point through i think

 

[Rizen]

Good work Dyclone!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Wow. I can honestly say I fully appreciate the mega amount of effort that went into your post. It is with great pride that I say, that's going in the op, you just started a new section. You're most welcome any time in this thread.
Edit: All done. I also tidied things up a bit with some more collapsible code. It was getting quite big XD, almost as big as the tech post.

 

[Rizen]

I wonder if similar character dynamics apply to Yoshi's CG.

 

[Dyclone]

I prefer space camping rather than projectile camping. Grenades are simply a tool to help control that spacing and funnel people closer towards you.

Is there any way link can mimic this action? I don't understand the fundamentals of space camping but it sounds interesting.

 

[Rizen]

Is there any way link can mimic this action? I don't understand the fundamentals of space camping but it sounds interesting.

Link's main tactic is space camping. It means using projectiles while trying to stay a certain distance from the opponent and looking for openings or creating setups. Spacing is very important to Link since his close combat and OoS are bad. I like to short hop projectiles.

 

[Dyclone]

Shouldn't that always be the goal while camping, although other goals can be added to that tactic. So Link should be able to close or open up the space between him and the opponent if he performs space camping correctly, right? I find myself using retreating or neutral full hops when using projectiles, so it's my choice whether or not I land right away.

 

[Rizen]

Shouldn't that always be the goal while camping, although other goals can be added to that tactic. So Link should be able to close or open up the space between him and the opponent if he performs space camping correctly, right?

Yeah. Characters like Falco/Pit/ROB and others can camp in a traditional way from afar to do damage but Link needs space camping.

 

[Dyclone]

Yeah. Characters like Falco/Pit/ROB and others can camp in a traditional way from afar to do damage but Link needs space camping.

so that's why link is so easily out camped by most campy characters. Ok, I think I now understand space camping. I try to hard to do traditional camping but the problem for me is how link has so much lag on his projectiles for how far the go. At least I know so I don't try so hard to do something Link has the inability to, good thing I'm told later rather than never

 

[Pachinkosam]

i so u guys about what

 

[Dyclone]

^I can not comprehend D:
Guess this means I can post again
I've been looking at bair lately and I think it's a really good move for close quarters. It's safe on shield, it sends opponent at that good low-ish angle that I like and it almost links into itself. I found it to be an ok GTFO move but not too practical with 14 frames until the hitbox comes out(around there). I've even read it give a character trouble(Jigglypuff but there maybe more.) The most recent link videos I've watched, I barely see the move used. Is there something i'm missing?

 

[Rizen]

^I can not comprehend D:
Guess this means I can post again
I've been looking at bair lately and I think it's a really good move for close quarters. It's safe on shield, it sends opponent at that good low-ish angle that I like and it almost links into itself. I found it to be an ok GTFO move but not too practical with 14 frames until the hitbox comes out(around there). I've even read it give a character trouble(Jigglypuff but there maybe more.) The most recent link videos I've watched, I barely see the move used. Is there something i'm missing?

BAir:

--BAir landing animation can happen immediately.
Frame 5: Hitbox out: 4 damage, 4 frame duration.
Frame 17: Hitbox out: 7 damage, 6 frame duration.
Frame 28: Autocancel.
Frame 30: IASA
--BAir landing lag has a frame 10 IASA
Bair's Link's fastest attack. It is a great move for Link. I use it OoS and even vs characters like Wolf.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I can't see how that's meant to answer his question...
He's basically saying;
Bair = a good move, right? If so, why isn't it used more often?

@Dyclone: I don't main Link so I'm in no position to answer the question, in fact I don't mean to, so I'm helping in a way that will hopefully get your question some more serious responses. The question you raise is one I've wondered myself tbh. All I can think of atm is it's not uber disjointed like most of Link's other attacks, but probably more to the point and in no way unrelated, is that it probably isn't as safe on shield as you seem to think it is. I feel as if I've said too much in the way of an answer to your question, so I'll leave it to the others from here.

 

[Rizen]

The disjointedness is about equal to Fair. Bair's common as a momentum canceler, of course. The reason it's not seen too much, and it is underused in my opinion too, is it's situational. Zair is safer from a distance (safer on shields), Nair has gap-less attack around Link's sides and lower body and is a better combo breaker and Fair is slower but more powerful. If I can start and hit with Fair it's better than Bair. Link should be spamming and using Zair/jabs from farther for best spacing.
Bair's best for a quick air attack and spacing that falls between Zair's reach and Nair/Dair's reach. So, yeah Link's don't use it except for quick things like OoS or repelling SH approaches.
The first 20 seconds of [FONT=&quot]this[/FONT] show what I mean well:

 

[Dyclone]

@Rizen(1) I guess I should have been more specific when I put in the 14 frames. I imagine Bair being used with a short hop which I've gotten that link's jump, he isn't out of his jump squat animation until frame 9 which means he is in the animation for 8 frames, I also assumed that he is in the air on frame 9 and added 5 to the 8 and the added 1 frame for being the frame of input.
@Fox I said I found it safe on shield due to being able to move away while higher than most grabs. Thanks for addressing my question better than I could.
@Rizen(2) I think Bair could just be a move to get your opponent off you and is better for the closer opponents and the ones at angles. And since it's so quick, it usually will hit any character (sometimes squirtly/olimar depending on height) and as I said before you can link it to other moves on the heavier or fast falling characters. I use Nair to push my opponents down to a Zair, or to atleast bring them down.
I took my time to watch your video, stop dodging unnecessarily. You're just making it harder to punish him. Also, the way you rushed in at the beginning, I don't think that's healthy for link.

 

[Huggles828]

Another great use for bair is to fast fall it into the ground and only get the first kick off. It has enough hitstun to guarantee at least a followup jab (which you can then cancel into other stuff). Utilt and dsmash work out of it too (I think they're more character dependent). It's nice used out of awkward-seeming jumps, too, especially if you can mix it up with nair or something too; it can be confusing for opponents and slow down the pace of the match in your favor. That's probably what I use it most for, at least. Legan uses it a good bit too.

Look at :13, :33, 2:33, 3:22. Actually, look at the whole thing, it's still a pretty awesome video, haha.

 

[Rizen]

I took my time to watch your video, stop dodging unnecessarily. You're just making it harder to punish him. Also, the way you rushed in at the beginning, I don't think that's healthy for link.

If I want a critique I'll ask for one and this is not the place. You're right I did a few unnessary dodges but rushing under Mario when he approached on the platform was very effective. + I 2stocked him on YI.
I only posted that to show why Bair is situational (in the first 20 seconds) which was said because Fox said your question wasn't answered.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Just as long as everyone's setting the record straight, Fair is way more disjointed than Bair. Disjointed means when a hitbox reaches much further away than the hurtbox. It doesn't mean range. So because Link uses his sword to do Fair, it is naturally really disjointed because the sword is not a hurtbox. Compare this to Bair which is Link's legs, which are hurtboxes (and therefore can be hit). So Bair isn't as disjointed as most of Link's other attacks.

Having said that, I still think it is an under used move. If you think of a situation which happens all the time where the opponent rushes you down, and you don’t have enough time to throw out a Fair or Zair, and a Jab could easily be shielded than punished, wouldn’t a quick turn-around retreating SH Bair be the best option (other than shielding or some other defensive manoeuvre)? This is a legit question and I want to know what the actual Link mainers think of it. With me, I see Bair as a good move 'in theory', what I lack is actual experience with the character, so from your experience what do you think? I mean, that's just one example where I can see it being a really good move, there are many others.

 

[Rizen]

My last post came out harsher than I intended. I have a 'debate style shoot-from-the-hip' way of thinking but didn't intend to sound defensive or mean. :/

So because Link uses his sword to do Fair, it is naturally really disjointed because the sword is not a hurtbox. Compare this to Bair which is Link's legs, which are hurtboxes (and therefore can be hit). So Bair isn't as disjointed as most of Link's other attacks.

Having said that, I still think it is an under used move. If you think of a situation which happens all the time where the opponent rushes you down, and you don’t have enough time to throw out a Fair or Zair, and a Jab could easily be shielded than punished, wouldn’t a quick turn-around retreating SH Bair be the best option (other than shielding or some other defensive manoeuvre)? This is a legit question and I want to know what the actual Link mainers think of it. With me, I see Bair as a good move 'in theory', what I lack is actual experience with the character, so from your experience what do you think? I mean, that's just one example where I can see it being a really good move, there are many others.

I'm pretty sure Link's legs become disjointed during Bair and Nair, like ZSS or Snake.


Yes, Bair is a great spacing tool. SHing allows Link to keep his distance while attacking and Bair is fast and has long lasting hitbubbles for it's short duration. I've used ^that strategy, it is a good option.
It also eats most weak range attacks.

 

[Dyclone]

Another great use for bair is to fast fall it into the ground and only get the first kick off. It has enough hitstun to guarantee at least a followup jab (which you can then cancel into other stuff). Utilt and dsmash work out of it too (I think they're more character dependent). It's nice used out of awkward-seeming jumps, too, especially if you can mix it up with nair or something too; it can be confusing for opponents and slow down the pace of the match in your favor. That's probably what I use it most for, at least. Legan uses it a good bit too.

Look at :13, :33, 2:33, 3:22. Actually, look at the whole thing, it's still a pretty awesome video, haha.

Yeah, I know it and find tons on times to use it, just that I either mess up the turn around or i'm just reluctant to try it, otherwise I love trying/doing it. I'll try it that more, I never thought about it slowing down the pace of the match.
Yeah the video is still fun to watch.

If I want a critique I'll ask for one and this is not the place. You're right I did a few unnessary dodges but rushing under Mario when he approached on the platform was very effective. + I 2stocked him on YI.
I only posted that to show why Bair is situational (in the first 20 seconds) which was said because Fox said your question wasn't answered.

I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist. Oh, I couldn't tell what the point of the video was until I read it. It didn't convince me much, I'll re-watch it with that in mind.
What ever works for you, you're the one that two stocked him

Just as long as everyone's setting the record straight, Fair is way more disjointed than Bair. Disjointed means when a hitbox reaches much further away than the hurtbox. It doesn't mean range. So because Link uses his sword to do Fair, it is naturally really disjointed because the sword is not a hurtbox. Compare this to Bair which is Link's legs, which are hurtboxes (and therefore can be hit). So Bair isn't as disjointed as most of Link's other attacks.

Having said that, I still think it is an under used move. If you think of a situation which happens all the time where the opponent rushes you down, and you don’t have enough time to throw out a Fair or Zair, and a Jab could easily be shielded than punished, wouldn’t a quick turn-around retreating SH Bair be the best option (other than shielding or some other defensive manoeuvre)? This is a legit question and I want to know what the actual Link mainers think of it. With me, I see Bair as a good move 'in theory', what I lack is actual experience with the character, so from your experience what do you think? I mean, that's just one example where I can see it being a really good move, there are many others.

Now that I think about it, Bair is more of a defensive move (IMO of course). I think it could work. I can't think of any scenario where Bair would be the best move to use, maybe the way Huggles mentioned?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I'm pretty sure Link's legs become disjointed during Bair and Nair, like ZSS or Snake.

From what I can make out with some quick testing, his feet become disjointed but not his whole leg. At absolute most it might include his shin, the knee seems like a bit of a stretch, but in any case, to be absolutely sure just how disjointed it is, you'd need codes. It's interesting to note though.

 

[BryE]

This is a question regarding to Link's Gale Boomerang return combos. I'm also not sure if this have been asked yet and not to mention that I'm quite new on SmashBoards, so please be easy on me.

Is there currently a collection of videos that showcase things such as this? I believe showing a few combo setups with the return of the Gale Boomerang would be quite helpful to other Link veterans out there. And it would be EXTREMELY helpful to anyone who is trying to pick up Link.
I also noticed that the "Double Dsmash" wasn't added to this Link thread at all. This is really helpful if you are either trying to deal a good amount of damage in the beginning of the match or you could use it as a kill move when your opponent least expect it.

Some other things that I have been working on with Link's Gale Boomerang return is trying to make actual combos from the wind hitboxes. I'm sure that this has been noted already, but I only wish to be helpful.



SH Bair -> Gale Return -> Bair (Tested)

I accidentally did this in a match the other day and I wanted to recreate it. So I did. It's an actual 4 hit combo. Not only that, but you could do some other follow ups. However, the return of the boomerang has to be angle upward, mainly because the boomerang pulls the enemy downward when it comes back at an decreasing angle.

Bair -> Gale Return -> Upsmash (Untested)

I haven't tried this at all, but I have been quite curious if this works or not.

SH Fair - > Gale Return -> Upsmash (Tested, but not fully)

I've tried this several times for fun, but unfortunately I was not able execute this as an actual combo. Perhaps there's a specific setup for this? I'm not sure.


The rest of these returning gale combos are just suggestions and ideas. I know Link's boomerang has potential, which is why I really want to see how well it can be abused. Most of these setups and combos are just me being hopeful and optimistic about the capabilities of Link's Gale Return combos. But my intention of this is to see which are actual combos and which aren't.

SH Fair -> Gale Return -> JabLock (If opponent fails to tech)

SH Bair -> Gale Return -> JabLock (If opponent fails to tech)

SH Fair -> Gale Return -> Dsmash

SH Bair -> Gale Return -> Dsmash

Fsmash (Both hits) -> Gale Return -> Dsmash (Could work at earlier percentages?)

Fsmash (1st hit) -> Gale Return -> Dsmash

Fsmash (1st hit) -> Gale Return -> Upsmash

Fsmash (1st hit) -> Gale Return -> Fsmash (Delayed 2nd hit - Could work at 40% - 80%?)



DO NOT TAKE THESE COMBOS SERIOUSLY!

As stated before, these are just ideas of what could be actual combos and whatnot. Feel free to test these setups out. However I'm quite sure most of these combos have been either discovered already or possibly tested. But again, I just want to be helpful.

 

[DehNutCase]

I don't know if this is common knowledge or not but...

As we all know, link can't jump, his full hop generally misses the slightly higher platforms of smashville/middle plat of Lyat by around an inch or something. But what I've found is, if you perform a platform cancel while jumping to one of these "unreachable" (at least with only the full hop) platforms, the platform cancel gives you enough of a boost to actully reach the platform. (To test, just go to smashville/lyat, try jumping to either the middle platform for lyat or the one platform of smashville, you'll find that links uber-encumbered legs can't reach the damn things, but if you do a quick flick down on the control stick right as links upper body is passing through the platform, you'll do an platform cancel and actully land on the platform.)

I suppose the safest use for this is to reach said platforms without using the second jump and thus risking being hit off the stage and then dying ... Of course, the platform cancel also speeds up actully getting up to the platform by skipping some frames that would've been normally spent moving up and simply teleporting link right on top of the platform. So it can make a somewhat decent fakeout option when the person fighting link KNOWS that link's weak jump and so doesn't count on link being able to attack from the position quickly, since it normally takes the full hop time + double jump time + landing to reach said platforms.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well this is all brilliant stuff! I'm a bit pressed for time atm, but I'll be sure to contribute extensively when I can. Until then, I can only recommend whole heartedly that the rest of you discuss and test this stuff cause I'm liking where this is going.
Good work you two.

 

[Dyclone]

@DehNutCase I didn't you could platform cancel on lylat, I don't even know much about my favorite CP stage. There is a video on platform canceling http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6B5QxFBBIs . I use it to catch my opponent off guard and to get a hit to knock him off the platform. I'd like to use it more but i just can't get the timing down consistently
@BryE wow, the Fair and Bair combos seem most interesting to me, did you mean the first hit of Fair the last, or both? I constantly try to get a Gale boomerang behind my opponent and occasionally get those galerang return spikes. I'll try these out later

Tested with Mario
The jab locks don't work until at a higher pecent

 

[DehNutCase]

@Dyclone, the platform canceling I'm referring to should be something slightly different, his is simply performing an action asap once you get onto the platform, the one I'm referring to is where by either holding down and doing an aerial (which becomes canceled, you don't actully see the aerial) or by flicking down on the control stick right as you're passing the platform, (I think it's only when you're rising, i.e. can't platform cancel with a fallthrough) you teleport to slightly above the platform and land instantly without anylag other than the normal landing lag. The key difference being that the next action isn't buffered, i.e. you have to actully input the command after you've landed, and that you can do it on stationary platforms like Lyat/battlefield.

You can see the teleporation thing quite clearly in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWW_FZQHRyc&feature=related (it's about snake, but the idea is the same) Note how he performs a double jump after falling through and lands on the platform before reaching the apex of his jump, by being teleported to the platform. You might also note that the landing animation is the fast falled landing animation, since it's the fast fall that actully causes this werid teleporting thing.

 

[BryE]

@BryE wow, the Fair and Bair combos seem most interesting to me, did you mean the first hit of Fair the last, or both? I constantly try to get a Gale boomerang behind my opponent and occasionally get those galerang return spikes. I'll try these out later

Tested with Mario
The jab locks don't work until at a higher pecent

You can use the first hit of Fair no problem at higher percentages. It will easily work. I should have been more specific about the Fair attacks.

I also worked on some other setups and experimented with using the Gale Return with Bombs and other attacks. But the most interesting one I found was this:

SH Bair -> Gale Return -> Double Jump -> Dair


Yes. Freaking Dair. I tried this on light characters such as Samus and Luigi just to make sure if they couldn't escape it. And to my surprise, they never could! It's an actual combo.
It does about 33% in damage out of 3 hits (Dair being the strongest) It's really easy on bigger characters like DDD, Donkey Kong, Charizard, and Bowser.

I'm currently trying to see what else does Link's Boomerang has to offer. I already know that he can use it to start up a jab lock just by hitting his opponent with it (That is if he's right next to them)
I also cannot post any videos at the moment since I don't have any type of recording equipment. I might try to buy a Dazzle later on.

 

[Beat11]

These could great ways to punish opponents who ignore returning boomerangs. Keep em coming. Also, I think SJR and Platform cancelling will be helpful to Link if implemented correctly.

 

[Dyclone]

@BryE Good work BryE! These gale return setups could be great kill setups. I just want to know what angle did you use to test these combos? I'm curious.
@DehNutCase I'm pretty sure snake was landing with his soft landing, but I'm not sure, and I don't feel like checking it out. Canceling an aerial? I get caught in landing lag every time I try it, though is it really necessary? Or am I missing something

 

[BryE]

@BryE Good work BryE! These gale return setups could be great kill setups. I just want to know what angle did you use to test these combos? I'm curious.

The Gale Return needs to come back at a downward angle.

Example: You throw the boomerang diagonally upwards and it returns downwards to you.

Pulling these setups just requires a specific timing in order to get the garenteed pullback from the Gale Return. If you try to execute an attack too early, the Gale Return will either won't pull them back at all, or it will pull them towards you but the hitstun from your last attack will probably wear off before then.
And if you do it too late the boomerang will probably return to you before you send your opponent flying. lol

But personally I think that if Link's Gale Return setups can easily change his metagame. Especially since you have almost an unlimited amount of choices you can do right after the Gale Return. Plus, the best thing about the Gale Return setups is that if you do them correctly you will have an advantage since most of Link's setups are actual combos.

Also, please note that some people will definitely try to ride Link's Boomerang towards you (and I found a perfect way to deal with this) If a person does try to ride the Gale Return by using a charged smash attack, just pull out a bomb before the boomerang comes back and use a bomb footstool combo into a jab lock. After that, follow up with any of Link's attacks (or you could setup for another jab lock). Most people never expect this if they haven't played against a good Link player who is well aware of where their Boomerang is.

 

[SSGuy]

The best idea that I can brainstorm in this thread is talking about what character you guys should play instead. It's the only way you guys will ever win.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

That's gotta be the saddest trolling I've ever seen. I don't know what else to say. I think I legitimately feel sorry for you.

 

[SN Viper]

The best idea that I can brainstorm in this thread is talking about what character you guys should play instead. It's the only way you guys will ever win.

Dude real talk. You link mains should just fast fall when you get hit off stage so we can get on with the match.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Oh look, he has a friend XD. Well this makes all the difference. At least the poor fella won't be lonely.
I'm not even sure what was trying to be accomplished here though. I don't play the character. so... ? I agree? Sure, why not?

 

[BryE]

Dude real talk. You link mains should just fast fall when you get hit off stage so we can get on with the match.

Really? Just really?

With that logic, you might as well say that everyone should pick up MetaKnight.

 

[SSGuy]

everyone should pick up MetaKnight.

With that mentality, you're one step closer to winning a set. Not that POS Link will get one anyways. You guys troll yourselves by playing him in tournament.

 

[BryE]

I don't play to win, I play to have fun. I go to tournaments to meet new people and hang out rather than using the most broken character in the game and making myself look bad just to win.

In a competitive sense, Brawl is just silly. Everyone picks MetaKnight and there's no diversity.

 

[DehNutCase]

@ Dyclone, if you get caught in an aerials landing lag you're probably doing it wrong, the reason doing an aerial lets you platform cancel while holding down on the control stick is because it triggers a fast fall, (which, if you have upward momentum at the time and is passing through a platform, for Link, I think it's when his upper half is passing through the platform, let's you platform cancel, try it in training mode 1/4 time, and just flick down as many times as possible during a full hop while below a platform, you'll find that if the timing was (for flicking the control stick) right Link will teleport to slightly above the platform and hang there for a few frames before landing on the platform.) since some people find that holding the control stick down and hitting a is easier than timing the down tilting of the control stick just when link is passing the platform.

 

[Rizen]

We play him because 'He's freaking Link!'. 'nuf said.

The wind can completely stop momentum in weird situations, it's like a wall. Something to do with hitstun and launch angles makes the wall effect. I've had Fair hit 2 launch strait up for a KO after hitting a returning boomerang.
Any move can be comboed to any other move with a returning boomerang but it's really hard to setup and can't be done consistently.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Everyone here should get Premium and use the Generation Emerald skin.

DO IT NOW. YOUR BODY IS READY.