Rizen
Smash Legend
That's helpful, I was way too close. Good gale spikes too. I need to learn to jab lock, I just jab>Dsmash.
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Secrets of The Seven Sages: Link's Brainstorming Thread, Complete AT list and Combos
- Thread starter Fox Is Openly Deceptive
- Start date
Yeah, Zairing up close like that is gonna be a whole new thing to most of you and probaby the complete opposite to what you normally see Link doing, but I see it as an area that has not been developed yet, using Zair to combo into things. Trust me, as punishable as it looks, you should only be using it when you know it'll hit anyway. As I've said before, Toon's do this sort of thing all the time. It's not impossible to pull off in a real match.
Now for some test results.
I tested the Zair to SH Bomb D-throw to footstool (which would then go to a Jab lock from there the usual way, but I didn't need to test anything after the footstool because it would not be affected at all) on every character and it is quite hard! The good thing about this one compared to the Zair to D-tilt one is that with the D-tilt one, it requires a bit of luck really, I mean you need to get it perfectly spaced and timed, but with this one, it relies entirely on practise and tech skill. So what I'm saying is, if you are good enough, there is no reason why you shouldn't be landing this very consistently. But darn it is hard! Especially on a few characters. So I'll give you the list of characters and stuff and I'll let you know which matchups you'd want to be practising it for and which ones you shouldn't bother with.
Before I do so, I'll let you know how I've been performing it.
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, SH towards your opponent (continue drifting towards your opponent until you get the footstool), Airdodge, Zair up close to the opponent and close enough to the ground in order to cancel the Zair early (the same Zair as the Zair to D-tilt), (continue holding towards them), as soon as you land SH towards them and throw the Bomb Down asap (be careful not to Jump cancel throw the Bomb at your feet, you may need to learn the timing), hold towards them and Footstool them as they get blown upwards by the Bomb (then Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab Lock). If you can manage it, I would advise that you use the C-stick to throw the Bomb Down as it allows you to hold towards the opponent the entire time. This works on low to medium percents, if the percents get too high, they will either be hit too far away by the Zair to get the Bomb to hit or they will be hit too far by the Bomb to get the footstool to connect. Obviously, exact percents will vary with each character.
Ok, so it is possible for it to work on everyone, but some characters are so hard that I wouldn't bother if I was you.
When it says Normal and Easy, these may be roughly the same amount of difficulty only I tested them at different times which could have affected things (for example I could have been pissed off at Olimar for being such a jerk, that the other characters after him could have had an unfair trial so to speak XD). So all I'm saying is, these are rough estimates on the difficulties of each character.
Mario: Normal.
Luigi: Normal.
Peach: Hard. She can be hard to hit with the bomb because of the way she gets hit and she's so floaty.
Bowser: Hard. His body gets in the way and if you space it so it doesn't, it can be hard to get the footstool.
Donkey Kong: Hard. His body gets in the way and if you space it so it doesn't, it can be hard to get the footstool.
Diddy Kong: Normal.
Yoshi: Hard.
Wario: Normal.
Link: Normal.
Zelda: Normal.
Sheik: Easy.
Ganondorf: Easy.
Toon: Easy.
Samus: Normal, but you have to Full hop Bomb Down Throw.
ZSS: Hard. She just seems to get hit further away than the others.
Pit: Hard. Same reason as ZSS.
IC's: Normal.
ROB: Easy.
Kirby: Easy.
Meta Knight: Easy.
D3: Hard. He's fat. Same reason as Bowser and DK.
Olimar: Very hard. Ok this is one of the 2 characters that made me rage! It's so stupidly hard to get it to work for some reason. So for him, I say, Forget it!
Fox: Normal.
Falco: Normal.
Wolf: Normal.
Captain Falcon: Normal.
Pikachu: Normal.
Ivysaur: Normal.
Charizard: Normal.
Squirtle: Normal.
Lucario: Very Hard. This is the second of the 2 characters that I raged at. It's stupid hard to get it to work so the chances of you pulling it off in a real game are not worth it. So for Lucario, take my advise, Forget it!
Jiggly Puff: Hard.
Marth: Normal.
Ike: Normal.
Ness: Hard.
Lucas: Normal.
Mr. G@W: Normal.
Snake: Normal.
Sonic: Normal.
Again, I cannot stress that this will take some practise as it is quite hard at first.
Now for some test results.
I tested the Zair to SH Bomb D-throw to footstool (which would then go to a Jab lock from there the usual way, but I didn't need to test anything after the footstool because it would not be affected at all) on every character and it is quite hard! The good thing about this one compared to the Zair to D-tilt one is that with the D-tilt one, it requires a bit of luck really, I mean you need to get it perfectly spaced and timed, but with this one, it relies entirely on practise and tech skill. So what I'm saying is, if you are good enough, there is no reason why you shouldn't be landing this very consistently. But darn it is hard! Especially on a few characters. So I'll give you the list of characters and stuff and I'll let you know which matchups you'd want to be practising it for and which ones you shouldn't bother with.
Before I do so, I'll let you know how I've been performing it.
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, SH towards your opponent (continue drifting towards your opponent until you get the footstool), Airdodge, Zair up close to the opponent and close enough to the ground in order to cancel the Zair early (the same Zair as the Zair to D-tilt), (continue holding towards them), as soon as you land SH towards them and throw the Bomb Down asap (be careful not to Jump cancel throw the Bomb at your feet, you may need to learn the timing), hold towards them and Footstool them as they get blown upwards by the Bomb (then Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab Lock). If you can manage it, I would advise that you use the C-stick to throw the Bomb Down as it allows you to hold towards the opponent the entire time. This works on low to medium percents, if the percents get too high, they will either be hit too far away by the Zair to get the Bomb to hit or they will be hit too far by the Bomb to get the footstool to connect. Obviously, exact percents will vary with each character.
Ok, so it is possible for it to work on everyone, but some characters are so hard that I wouldn't bother if I was you.
When it says Normal and Easy, these may be roughly the same amount of difficulty only I tested them at different times which could have affected things (for example I could have been pissed off at Olimar for being such a jerk, that the other characters after him could have had an unfair trial so to speak XD). So all I'm saying is, these are rough estimates on the difficulties of each character.
Mario: Normal.
Luigi: Normal.
Peach: Hard. She can be hard to hit with the bomb because of the way she gets hit and she's so floaty.
Bowser: Hard. His body gets in the way and if you space it so it doesn't, it can be hard to get the footstool.
Donkey Kong: Hard. His body gets in the way and if you space it so it doesn't, it can be hard to get the footstool.
Diddy Kong: Normal.
Yoshi: Hard.
Wario: Normal.
Link: Normal.
Zelda: Normal.
Sheik: Easy.
Ganondorf: Easy.
Toon: Easy.
Samus: Normal, but you have to Full hop Bomb Down Throw.
ZSS: Hard. She just seems to get hit further away than the others.
Pit: Hard. Same reason as ZSS.
IC's: Normal.
ROB: Easy.
Kirby: Easy.
Meta Knight: Easy.
D3: Hard. He's fat. Same reason as Bowser and DK.
Olimar: Very hard. Ok this is one of the 2 characters that made me rage! It's so stupidly hard to get it to work for some reason. So for him, I say, Forget it!
Fox: Normal.
Falco: Normal.
Wolf: Normal.
Captain Falcon: Normal.
Pikachu: Normal.
Ivysaur: Normal.
Charizard: Normal.
Squirtle: Normal.
Lucario: Very Hard. This is the second of the 2 characters that I raged at. It's stupid hard to get it to work so the chances of you pulling it off in a real game are not worth it. So for Lucario, take my advise, Forget it!
Jiggly Puff: Hard.
Marth: Normal.
Ike: Normal.
Ness: Hard.
Lucas: Normal.
Mr. G@W: Normal.
Snake: Normal.
Sonic: Normal.
Again, I cannot stress that this will take some practise as it is quite hard at first.
Well since scabe and quirky were up for moving on with the combo thread. I was thinking of keeping the discussion of new stuff here in terms of combos. Then move all the current info you have going in this thread about true combos and jab locks and stick it into the Linking Attacks thread, after reorganizing it.
Or just completely get rid of the Linking Attack thread and making a Combo post in this thread, mostly just true combos and jab locks. And possibly changing the Linking attack thread into more of a players thread such as this one:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278794
where it can be used to identify possibilities for future discussions on what every player needs to work on individually or as a community. More information in the intro of that thread.
What are your thoughts?
Or just completely get rid of the Linking Attack thread and making a Combo post in this thread, mostly just true combos and jab locks. And possibly changing the Linking attack thread into more of a players thread such as this one:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278794
where it can be used to identify possibilities for future discussions on what every player needs to work on individually or as a community. More information in the intro of that thread.
What are your thoughts?
Hmm.
Well after reading your post and reading through your thread that you linked and reading through your combo thread and all the new posts in it, and thinking it over (how can we make this work in the best way possible?), then re-reading your post XD, I can only suggest that we go with your idea of getting a new post in here which will contain a list of Combos and True Combos. I'd be fine with that and I can promise you that the info will be quite accurate. Then you make your combo thread into the players thread that can also act as a players directory thread with wifi numbers, names and everything in your Pit thread. The players thread actually looked quite helpful, so I'd be all for having one for the Link boards (plus, having some sort of Link mainers directory would be sweet).
If you're also ok with that idea, then I'll ask Scabe to add another post to the OP (three posts that would make it) and the third one would be the combos section. Then I'll add any info you've collected over in your thread, testing everything myself before I add it and give rough estimates for when the combos will be most likely to work. It'll be a bit of work on my part, but I work quite fast XD, so it'll be done as soon as I can get a chunk of spare time. It just seems that having the combos here makes sense as you've said because we've already found some combos in here.
I'll then set up a kind of system for contributions to the combo section (probably something simple at the start of the third post, like it has to register as a consecutive hit in training mode). Things should work out fine. Then this thread will still have as it's primary focus being a brainstorming thread, but the good thing is that then, anything that is found, anything at all whether it be a tech or a combo, I can just add it straight away as well as quote it in the first post where needed.
So what does everyone think?
Well after reading your post and reading through your thread that you linked and reading through your combo thread and all the new posts in it, and thinking it over (how can we make this work in the best way possible?), then re-reading your post XD, I can only suggest that we go with your idea of getting a new post in here which will contain a list of Combos and True Combos. I'd be fine with that and I can promise you that the info will be quite accurate. Then you make your combo thread into the players thread that can also act as a players directory thread with wifi numbers, names and everything in your Pit thread. The players thread actually looked quite helpful, so I'd be all for having one for the Link boards (plus, having some sort of Link mainers directory would be sweet).
If you're also ok with that idea, then I'll ask Scabe to add another post to the OP (three posts that would make it) and the third one would be the combos section. Then I'll add any info you've collected over in your thread, testing everything myself before I add it and give rough estimates for when the combos will be most likely to work. It'll be a bit of work on my part, but I work quite fast XD, so it'll be done as soon as I can get a chunk of spare time. It just seems that having the combos here makes sense as you've said because we've already found some combos in here.
I'll then set up a kind of system for contributions to the combo section (probably something simple at the start of the third post, like it has to register as a consecutive hit in training mode). Things should work out fine. Then this thread will still have as it's primary focus being a brainstorming thread, but the good thing is that then, anything that is found, anything at all whether it be a tech or a combo, I can just add it straight away as well as quote it in the first post where needed.
So what does everyone think?
Exactly what i was thinking. But explain better. lol.
I think that something related to this would be easiest and still organized.
Semi Chain Grab: Dthrow>walk away Pivot Grab>Dthrow>Pivot Boost Ftilt.
Stages: All, flat stages best
Best On: Fast Falling, Heavy Characters.
Escape By: Jumping out
Rating: ***
Though if possible i think it would also be good to break the rating up into usefulness out of like 5 stars in terms of it working or not and maybe difficulty to perform like your above post (Easy, Normal, Hard, and Very Hard). Though it may end up being the same thing.
I think that something related to this would be easiest and still organized.
Semi Chain Grab: Dthrow>walk away Pivot Grab>Dthrow>Pivot Boost Ftilt.
Stages: All, flat stages best
Best On: Fast Falling, Heavy Characters.
Escape By: Jumping out
Rating: ***
Though if possible i think it would also be good to break the rating up into usefulness out of like 5 stars in terms of it working or not and maybe difficulty to perform like your above post (Easy, Normal, Hard, and Very Hard). Though it may end up being the same thing.
While I had originally thought about just having real combos, as in, stuff that can't be escaped at certain percents (like most things that we refer to as combos), if you wanted to include stuff like that which are more based on predicting that the opponent won't jump out, in other words, they are escapable, then I could simply order the list by having true combos first, percent varying combos second (the most common) and escapable combos last (which would include how they can be escaped). I myself am a bit skeptical as to whether they could truely be called combos seeing as they can be escaped at any percent, but if things of that sort are wanted, then it's no problem at all.
Well just start off with true combos i guess. Seeing as there have been a bunch to pop up recently. After things start to slow down we can start going into less reliable combos. Just something to keep that post from staling.
But I find it important to always get into the head of your opponent and combo using predictions. Seeing as how limited true combos are in this game.
Either way its really up to you since you will be running the show.
But I find it important to always get into the head of your opponent and combo using predictions. Seeing as how limited true combos are in this game.
Either way its really up to you since you will be running the show.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Here's a vid of Dropkick combos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXv5nUV80As
I'll have to redo these vids with better editing. But for now these crappy quality ones will do
I'll have to redo these vids with better editing. But for now these crappy quality ones will do
Ok, I've started on the third post. There is still a lot more to do, but let me know what you think of it so far.
Oh and I've added that vid scabe. Thanks for all your help man.
Oh and I've added that vid scabe. Thanks for all your help man.
You know how it is with me. Lots of typing.
Um, but no I don't think it was a true combo. It would definitely be a certain percent combo, so I'll add it. Thanks man. If there's anything else you see missing (which I am quite sure there is) then feel free to let me know. It makes things easier.
Um, but no I don't think it was a true combo. It would definitely be a certain percent combo, so I'll add it. Thanks man. If there's anything else you see missing (which I am quite sure there is) then feel free to let me know. It makes things easier.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
So the other day I watched Kirin do Dropkick > Upsmash. Is this a true combo? And would UpB work.
Edit: New video with Gale Spike Setups http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJWa-WnYIeE
Edit: New video with Gale Spike Setups http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJWa-WnYIeE
Well a while ago there was talk about how Snakes grenades blow up on him when hes hit and why Links doesnt do that.
It got me thinking about how sometimes Link is forced into dropping his bomb due to some damage. Does anyone know if its random or is there a way to force it out as either Link or his opponent. If there is a way for Link to force the drop then it would do wonders for him against chain grabs.
It got me thinking about how sometimes Link is forced into dropping his bomb due to some damage. Does anyone know if its random or is there a way to force it out as either Link or his opponent. If there is a way for Link to force the drop then it would do wonders for him against chain grabs.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Yeah Ano once posted that if you hold R with a bomb in hand during chaingrabs sometimes the bomb would drop out. It'll be hard to find where he posted that though.
@Scabe: U-smash is like one frame too slow to be a true combo XD. Up-B is even slower so it doesn't work either. As far as I know, the Jab, U-tilt and D-smash are the only things that will true combo (Bomb throw may, but what the hell is the point of that?). And I'll totally add that vid right now. Great work man.
@Ryos4: Yes there is a way to drop it on purpose, I've just forgotten..... but I'm definitely sure there is. With the chain grabs though, it only drops if they screwed up a tiny bit I think. It does have other great potential though, like I remember reading how it could be used to 'counter' things like tornado. I'll have to look for it, I can't remember any specifics atm.
@Ryos4: Yes there is a way to drop it on purpose, I've just forgotten..... but I'm definitely sure there is. With the chain grabs though, it only drops if they screwed up a tiny bit I think. It does have other great potential though, like I remember reading how it could be used to 'counter' things like tornado. I'll have to look for it, I can't remember any specifics atm.
I well if i knew how to drop bombs on purpose during a chain grab that would make the falco match up so much easier. Also I was thinking about Meta's air release. Does it combo into anything, i was thinking at least DAC should combo if anything.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
So yeah anyone thought of bombing themselves? I've been using it recently as an OoS option and it's pretty good. Not much you can look into but we should get some discussion again 
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
I noticed that you used it a good bit in your most recent matches Scabe. It was particularly nice when you were at decent percents and it would pop you away, especially against like MK who would get in your face so easily.
I've always been quite skeptical about bombing yourself as a strat (this coming from the guy who thought of 'safe-spiking' for Toon).
I'll watch some of those matches against MK that were mentioned though, just to see how useful it looks.
(I've actually had some strange thoughts about this sort of thing before, but what I'm thinking of is so far outside the box you can't even see the box anymore. I'll test a few things when I get the chance, until then I'm keeping it to myself cause I could be completely wrong.)
Edit: Ok so not everything I was hoping for worked, which just means that the stuff I tested doesn't really have a use atm. I may as well fill you in on how far I got. You get Link to pull a bomb out, jump or be hit up in the air, hold down on the analog stick for the duration of this sequence of inputs, just as you are about to land (as in the last possible moment that you are still in the air), you throw the Bomb down (with C-stick if you want) and instantly hit the C-stick down (to SDI the Bomb blast into the ground. If you throw the Bomb down with C-stick as well, just make sure it's a flick so you can C-stick down to SDI instantly after). This will make Link bounce into the ground instead of fly upwards from the blast. The 'bounce', you can tech or tech roll. To tech, simply hit L or whatever instantly after the C-stick down (SDI), to tech roll, instead of holding down (one of the first things you had to do) hold diagonaly down and the rest is normal. As I said, this doesn't really have a use because what I was hoping for didn't exactly work as well as I had expected. In order to get the bounce animation that you can tech, you need to be between 26 and 73%. At 25%, Link just does a strange double animation type thing but no bounce, at 74%, I was unable to make it work.
So there you go.
I'll watch some of those matches against MK that were mentioned though, just to see how useful it looks.
(I've actually had some strange thoughts about this sort of thing before, but what I'm thinking of is so far outside the box you can't even see the box anymore. I'll test a few things when I get the chance, until then I'm keeping it to myself cause I could be completely wrong.)
Edit: Ok so not everything I was hoping for worked, which just means that the stuff I tested doesn't really have a use atm. I may as well fill you in on how far I got. You get Link to pull a bomb out, jump or be hit up in the air, hold down on the analog stick for the duration of this sequence of inputs, just as you are about to land (as in the last possible moment that you are still in the air), you throw the Bomb down (with C-stick if you want) and instantly hit the C-stick down (to SDI the Bomb blast into the ground. If you throw the Bomb down with C-stick as well, just make sure it's a flick so you can C-stick down to SDI instantly after). This will make Link bounce into the ground instead of fly upwards from the blast. The 'bounce', you can tech or tech roll. To tech, simply hit L or whatever instantly after the C-stick down (SDI), to tech roll, instead of holding down (one of the first things you had to do) hold diagonaly down and the rest is normal. As I said, this doesn't really have a use because what I was hoping for didn't exactly work as well as I had expected. In order to get the bounce animation that you can tech, you need to be between 26 and 73%. At 25%, Link just does a strange double animation type thing but no bounce, at 74%, I was unable to make it work.
So there you go.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
I think I almost understood you
I'll get a funny vid of Link's 'new' recovery that happened today.
I'll get a funny vid of Link's 'new' recovery that happened today.
Rizen
Smash Legend
I'll only bomb myself to recover or if it hit's the opponent too. Or to avoid a CG. So it does have good uses but Link is so vulnerable in the air. I tend to space too close when landing which doesn't help.
This is not new but I find it useful:
This is not new but I find it useful:
Zair stops followups, Bair won't when aimed the wrong direction but Zair always goes forwards even if you're SDIing the opposite way.
That's where I was hoping my thing would come in handy, because Link is so vulnerable in the air after exploding himself, I figured, why not just make Link not go in the air and simply instantly tech it (or tech roll). The problem was it's not as fast as I was hoping it to be so for the amount of effort it would take to do it, it probably won't be too helpful, for now (I'd just need to think about it long enough).
@Scabe; it's basically, instead of being blasted upwards by the Bomb explosion (when you blow youself up to escape something and find yourself vulnerable in the air), you SDI into the ground and tech the bounce animation. The rest should be self explanatory.
@Scabe; it's basically, instead of being blasted upwards by the Bomb explosion (when you blow youself up to escape something and find yourself vulnerable in the air), you SDI into the ground and tech the bounce animation. The rest should be self explanatory.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
So guys another of my crazy ideas.
You should all use Zair offstage on an opponent, even full hop his Zair. I've seen Toon Link's and Samus' use it. It's not good for Link, but just try it and see what you can come up with and see if it's any good in real battle. I'll be doing that, if anything amazing comes up I'll let you know
You should all use Zair offstage on an opponent, even full hop his Zair. I've seen Toon Link's and Samus' use it. It's not good for Link, but just try it and see what you can come up with and see if it's any good in real battle. I'll be doing that, if anything amazing comes up I'll let you know
quirkynature
Smash Ace
T-Link and Samus have good jumps and recoveries better than Link!
The few times I've attempted Z-air offstage, I've SD'd. I'll try again, though, but no hopes, eh?
So are you talking about gimping people with Zair or coming back to stage with Zair, cause coming back to stage would be suicide. (Come to think of it, I can picture them both being suicide if you miss them.)
Rizen
Smash Legend
Zair is great to help recoveries if Link is above the platform. A common mind game I use is to Zair outside the tether range> hit the opponent who's on stage> grab the edge or UpB grab the edge. It's faster and has better priority than projectiles.
Gimping, I think Nair/Bair/Fair/Dair or on stage spam are better. Zair's okay but Link can send a lot of projectiles out or make a 'wall of pain' close to the stage with aerials with less risk/better reward. In my opinion.
I've added more to the combos section. Not much, but it's getting there. If only it wasn't such boring work. I lose interest within the first 5 seconds.
So we're talking about using Zair off-stage for gimping and recovery? How has that been going for everyone anyway XD?
(It's just that it's such a laggy move if it isn't cancelled. I still reckon it's gonna suck if it doesn't connect, even if you have double jump and Up-B.)
So we're talking about using Zair off-stage for gimping and recovery? How has that been going for everyone anyway XD?
(It's just that it's such a laggy move if it isn't cancelled. I still reckon it's gonna suck if it doesn't connect, even if you have double jump and Up-B.)
quirkynature
Smash Ace
If my Z-air opens up facing the blast-zone, and I manage to connect, there's absolutely no way I can make it back. Then, my only hope is KOing after the opponent does.
As for if my Z-air opens up facing the stage, either it grabs the ledge or, if it does connect, I have a 40% chance of getting back--using my double jump and up-B.
Or maybe I just suck at Brawl lol.
Rizen
Smash Legend
I say for recovery but not gimping.
Watch 0:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZzKP8DQm6s
It's useful if the opponent is going to intercept above and near the stage or thinks you're going to dodge and tether the ledge.
So pretty much it's as I expected all along. Risky, laggy, and depends almost entirely on it actually hitting them.
I'd like to hear back from Scabe about this though. I pretty sure he was originally talking about gimping.
I'd like to hear back from Scabe about this though. I pretty sure he was originally talking about gimping.
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
It's certainly not completely useless, but I feel like zair offstage is, at best, situational. I prefer fair, nair, even using arrows (haha, I've been watching too much Kirin) or boomerang to get back on. I feel like there's too much lag and too little hitstun and usually a better option.
I'll use it to get a hit on an opponent trying to recover or get back on the stage from the ledge and add on some extra damage, (he can't airdodge or outrange it), but even then I don't feel like it's "gimping" so much as just piling on some more damage before they recover.
Random thought; wavebounced arrows: any use in recovering? Any real use at all?
I'll use it to get a hit on an opponent trying to recover or get back on the stage from the ledge and add on some extra damage, (he can't airdodge or outrange it), but even then I don't feel like it's "gimping" so much as just piling on some more damage before they recover.
Random thought; wavebounced arrows: any use in recovering? Any real use at all?
Rizen
Smash Legend
It's situational but can be useful. Zair starts on frame 10, hits frames 11-24 (2 hit with piercing priority, small gap in-between) and IASA frame 60. If it's too close too the ledge it will become a tether so spaced right Link can easily grab the ledge with his double jump.
As laggy as that is, Link is just full of lag all around. To compare: Fair starts frame 13, has 2 cuts each with 2 frames of attack and IASA frame 51. Boomerang has even more wind-up and less priority.
Zair's almost gapless attack that shields don't stop reaches far into the stage and falls with Link, making it very difficult to block or counter. It out reaches and out prioritizes most moves and projectiles. But, like everything it must be used and timed correctly.
Arrows have slight influence on air movement but not enough to make me use them if I don't want the arrow's attack anyway.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
I've been using Zair offstage as a rare mixup, it's good against DK's up B because usually it's hard to hit him out of his Up B.
But yeah it can't gimp well but it can somewhat set up for an up B, so yeah nothing too special.
As for the Wavebounced arrows, it's a great idea. I find it very hard to do though. I'll work on it again.
But yeah it can't gimp well but it can somewhat set up for an up B, so yeah nothing too special.
As for the Wavebounced arrows, it's a great idea. I find it very hard to do though. I'll work on it again.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2008
- Messages
- 27,486
- Location
- Milwaukee, Wisconsin
- NNID
- RedRyu_Smash
- 3DS FC
- 0344-9312-3352
I'll try offstage Zair and see how helpful it can be. Just gotta learn the distance Link can go and still recover.
IYM!
Smash Lord
Zair from the stage is usefull to keep away our opponent and keep him in the air (when he try to recover)
after that, we cant conect him a full Nair (this move can kill realy good) or spam our projectiles
this tactic dont kill or gimp our opponent but he will recive a lot of damage after all, and this is better than nothing
after that, we cant conect him a full Nair (this move can kill realy good) or spam our projectiles
this tactic dont kill or gimp our opponent but he will recive a lot of damage after all, and this is better than nothing
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Has anyone had Spin Attack descend when he's near the edge?
I would like to know how to pull that off consistently... It would be the coolest taunt!
I would like to know how to pull that off consistently... It would be the coolest taunt!
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
You mean like having Link use Spin attack but just fall as if he weren't using anything to recover? You can use boomerang to pull Link and his ****** counterpart Toon Link off the edge. Isn't there also that trick where you can cancel out of the B up by running and sliding off the edge while using it or something?
EDIT: This thing. I dunno if this is what you're looking for.
EDIT: This thing. I dunno if this is what you're looking for.
Yeah that's old stuff. There's actually more to it, like you can do more than just what's in the vid. This is of course a thread that contains (amoungst other things) a complete list of AT's. Well it wouldn't be complete if it didn't have all those and more written up in much better detail. Check it out, it's been there since I posted this thread XD. What Scabe is talking about is not in that vid, he's talking about a SAF (spin attack fall) or a Reverse SAF. In the vid it demonstrates the SAFC (spin attack fall cancel) and Reverse SAFC.
Edit: As for gimping with Zair, here's a vid with tones of examples. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDNs8HAJHco
Can Link do anything similar? (I think that's what Scabe was getting at.)
Edit: As for gimping with Zair, here's a vid with tones of examples. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDNs8HAJHco
Can Link do anything similar? (I think that's what Scabe was getting at.)
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Has anyone ever stage spiked with the beginning of Link's Up B? I've noticed this happening on stages like Lylat and Pokemon Stadium 1.