Secrets of The Seven Sages: Link's Brainstorming Thread, Complete AT list and Combos

[Huggles828]

They would have to have crazy grab range like Dedede I bet since when Link does his fsmash he steps back before swinging quite a bit. I really wanna try this now. I wonder if all this would break their shield? I bet it'd definitely shield stab at least.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@quirkynature@ The reason I wouldn't go for a grab is because we're try to break their shield using shield pressure tactics. I'm pretty sure that after a bomb throw to Nair to double Jab, a D-smash would break their shield. (untested, but it's an educated guess)

I can do the SHFFBair quite consistenly now in real time. All you have to do is find out what is the soonest possible time you can Fast fall and then it's just a matter of using Bair at the exact same time. It's just a bit of timing. I reckon with practise, it's totally do-able in a real game because it's so fast and is more then likely to catch them by surprise.

Also, the Nair automatically catches the Bomb if you use it straight after the Bomb throw as long as you're jumping forwards. In fact the whole thing doesn't work if you don't jump forwards, that's why I specified it. If you don't jump forwards, the Bomb hits them out of range of the Nair.

@Scabe: That's actually a bit over-kill if you ask me XD. Once you've done the Bomb to Nair to both hits of F-smash, it's gonna break their shield. If anything, I'd want to be using the Bomb that your holding to blow up and make the second hit less laggy just in case they spotdodge the second hit of F-smash.
Also, we're probably better off using Nair rather than Fair because it has less lag.
Still, if you are going for the Bomb to Nair to F-smash shield breaker and you acidently go too close so the Bomb bounces off their shield and you automatically catch it with Nair, then it is definitely good to keep in mind that you'll need to hold A and C-stick the F-smash.

@Ryos4: I'd be more worried about them spotdodging/rolling/jumping OoS and avoiding any further shield damage rather then grabbing you. Because as you said, it'd be pretty hard to grab a F-smash on shield.

@Huggles: Yes it would break their shield, but only if they shield it all. They only way it would shield stab is if the Nair hits them in the head where there is no shield or if they slide too far away and the second hit of F-smash misses the shield and hits them. Everything else is fine and the chances of those two happening are quite slim. So as I said, as long as they shield it all, yes it would break their shield.

 

[Rizen]

Maybe we could even think of Link's version of Fox's Deluxe sunshine combo. (I didn't pick the name)
This is basically (from memory) where Fox SH's, Shines at a specific height on the way up, uses Nair which is instantly auto cancelled on the ground and then goes into some jabs or something like that. From memory, it was quite close to breaking shields.
Now imagine Link doing this. He has the same kinda Nair and he also has three projectiles. I propose, that if we put our heads together lightly to avoid pain, we could brainstorm an insane shield pressure combo and possibly in our wildest dreams invent a shield breaker combo.

So you SH towards them, throw a Bomb down so it blows up on the ground and the blast hits their shield, Nair, (fast fall?), and then this is the part where I'm lost. If you land and then use both hits of F-smash it'll break a full shield no worries, but who the hell is gonna shield all of that.

The start, I like. The SH, throw bomb down to Nair is good and ends almost laglessly. If you throw the Bomb down too close to them, then the Bomb will bounce of their shield and you'll catch it with Nair. Possibe ideas? Maybe once you catch it, you can just rinse and repeat.

I hate to say it but there's a big flaw in these plans: shield grabs. Link is very easy to shield and counter, 1 sheild grab takes away the shield pressure profit and sets Link up to be chained. Any SH air attack close enough to connect can easily be shielded and grabbed in the landing or attack gap.

Range attacks don't give enough shield pressure to justify their lag. *Sigh*.
ArkiveZero was able to be aggressive by landing Nairs behind opponents. Link has terrible sideways air movement so this can't be used often.

I think our best bet to break shields is Zair a few times (Zair gives extra shield pressure) and if the opponent reacts defensively>bomb throw (we can let the fuse burn while we Zair)>SH Zair (catch bomb with air dodge or 'Z' if needed)>fast fall, land>Fsmash>Fsmash2. Both Fsmashes alone won't break a full shield, especially if power-shielding is involved, so we need to give as much fast pressure from beyond their grab reach as possible first. I've been punished by having both Fsmashes shielded-there's tons of ending lag. We can always chicken out and try later or combo from Zair if it's not shielded. vs small characters we might throw in a few jab cancels to something quick like DTilt or Utilt because Zair will only hit once.

Another thought: bombs and Dair bounce off shields. Bombs stop chaingrabs and will stop Dair's landing lag. vs characters like DDD, Charazard, with huge grab ranges, and limited anti-air tether grabs (Link, Samus) we could Zair then use bomb drops and Dair bounces to pressure shields.

Bombs:
I throw bombs down to escape, the explosion doesn't count as an on screen bomb so Link can pull another immediately- it's a great way to regenerate your bombs if 2 are on screen.
I like to bomb cross: SH backwards or in place>throw a bomb up> pull another>Zair or range spam>forwards bomb throw as the first comes down. (Anyone remember my Ubomb phase? lol). Do mindgames with invinvibombs, other bomb throws, and drops, like Fox said.

 

[Ryos4]

Im not too sure about Dair+Bomb shield pressure. I've done it with TL quite often but there are vast differences in the bounce that TL gets and what Link gets. TL can go from Dair to Dair. However, I don't think Link can do anything after Dair bounce off a shield besides land.

Link to me doesn't seem like a good character with much shield pressure options. All of his attacks have some strong lag after them. If anything i think Link should go for shield pokes rather then breaks. Though i do think the best option for Link is to just go for Jabs or grabs depending on how their opponent reacts. Jab cancel>Grabs for shield and Jab cancel>Jabs for spot dodge.

Though long range shield pressure might be possible. Something like SH bomb pull>Arrow Cancel>SH Rang>Arrow/ Arrow Cancel>Zair>Zair>SH Bomb>Arrow Cancel>Zair>Pivot Landing Fsmash. Can change Rang and arrow for additional Zair. While its more open for your opponent to run away. Using a more long range shield pressure allows you to openly chase him as he either rolls back or continues to shield. And with the added length to this pressure makes his shield deplete on its own as well.

 

[Anonano]

I think another flaw in the plan is that people who play Links fairly regularly (which is only in a few areas worldwide, but in those specific areas dealing with those Link players is a fairly constant deal) they'll realize one thing.
At fairly low percents if they just don't shield the second hit of fair, then they'll be knocked back only so far and will be able to retaliate.

So this is a bad strategy when the opponent is below the percents where they actually get knocked down. If they remain standing after the hit, they'll thwomp you. The damage you'll have done won't be much considering the damage that they'll be able to do to you.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I think we may need to read this. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240256
As long as we space it properly, they shouldn't be able to grab us.

After reading through it and re-testing a few things, I found that the slide they get from the Bomb blast to the instant Nair isn't actually safe enough. The Nair just doesn't have enough range. But Fair does.
New idea time. SH Bomb throw down, instant Fair (first hit only then you automatically land), F-smash both hits. With the range on Fair, you don't need to jump forwards, just SH on the spot.
If spaced properly (if the Bomb blast hits the shield near the edge of the blast), then they can't shield grab you because they are out of range for the whole thing (tested and confirmed).

So the majority of the cast can't grab us out of this shield breaking sequence. (Yes it does break full shields and no I haven't tested every character, but I presume that there must be someone that could grab us like tether grabbers. I haven't tested every section yet against tether grabbers and D3, but the amount of range Link has seems to beat D3, and Tether Grabbers may be too slow if spaced properly. I'll let you know once I've completed the testing. D3 might be able to grab us between the Bomb and Fair and Tether grabbers may be able to Grab us between the Fair and F-smash. I have to say though, it looks promising.)
But just because they can't grab, doesn't mean that don't have other options. They can spot dodge everything in this sequence, but it will only help them if they spot dodge the second hit of F-smash (the last hit). If they spot dodge anything else, they'll get hit by something.
They can roll at any point and this probably would help them as long as they roll the correct way and they have a decent roll.
Up-B and U-smash OoS would help some people like Sonic and GaW, but you have to remember that we are probably way out of range with most people (the whole sequence is right near the tip of Link's sword). These OoS options still need to be tested though.

So just to clarify one more time, you SH, Throw the bomb down, The edge of the blast hits their shield, C-stick a Fair so you don't move towards them, the first hit of Fair will hit their shield on the tip and then you'll land, then you F-smash, both hits of F-smash will connect with the shield near the tip of the sword and if the whole sequence is shielded, it will break the shield.

Power shielding will of course stop any shield push effect which will stuff up the spacing and you will be within range.

This still needs work, but I'm confident that Link can do this. (Have more faith in your character XD.)

 

[Rizen]

After reading through it and re-testing a few things, I found that the slide they get from the Bomb blast to the instant Nair isn't actually safe enough. The Nair just doesn't have enough range. But Fair does.
New idea time. SH Bomb throw down, instant Fair (first hit only then you automatically land), F-smash both hits. With the range on Fair, you don't need to jump forwards, just SH on the spot.
If spaced properly (if the Bomb blast hits the shield near the edge of the blast), then they can't shield grab you because they are out of range for the whole thing (tested and confirmed).

FAir landing animation can happen immediately.
Frame 13: Hitbox out: 9 damage, 2 frame duration.
Frame 25: Hitbox out: 12 damage, 2 frame duration.
Frame 50: Autocancel.
--Fair landing lag has a frame 10 IASA
ZAir:
Instant: Start searching for a ledge to tether.
Frame 5: Stop searching for a ledge to tether.

Frame 10: Hitbox out: 4 damage + extra to shields.
Frame 16: End Hitboxes.

Frame 22: Hitbox out: 6 damage + extra to shields.
Frame 24: End Hitboxes.
Why not just Zair instead of Fair? Zair has constant attack where the claw is (maybe a 6 frame gap?), Fair has 2 frames for each cut. If Zair hits after they shield the bomb Link gets an Fsmash, Fair hits and the opponent is weakly launched with 9% damage.
For Link to miss the explosion, the Fair can't be at the ground which means there's 2 frames of attack followed by the duration of the fast fall, landing lag, and 6 more frame before Link's fastest ground attack where an opponent could dash grab or smash. I've had people shield>release shield>shield both Fsmash cuts or spot dodge/roll dodge the second.
I'm not trying to be anti-productive but Link is very easy to shield and counter or grab.

 

[Ryos4]

I also agree with the shield grab problems Link has. Most characters have either a laggy start or end to moves. Link has both in a lot of his attacks.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@Rizen: fair enough. You make a good point. It is possible to SH Bomb throw down then Zair but the Zair doesn't extend very far. It might be enough. I'd have to check.
This is why I need the real Link mains I spose. They just know things through experience about Link. Is there a link to frame data? I prefer using frame data. It should be stickied. I'll have a look through the frame data cause I'm not even aware of which moves are fastest and by how much. This whole thing is looking much harder.

What do you think of the Jabs though? If it was to end with the three hit Jab combo, would that be fast enough with enough range?

Anyway, I'll keep thinking about it. I'm sure I'll think of something. Until then, we may as well discuss another idea. Any new ideas? How about trying to find new Jab lock set-ups? Or maybe just the Jab lock in general. How many of you use it?

 

[Ryos4]

K so i was looking at the TL thread you have set up. I think it would be informative if we discussed SMS/wave bouncing with Link. Or stuff like the "jerk" or other related arrow cancel ATs. I know its in the OP or second post. But i haven't really seen any Links make use of it.

So basically applications of the ATs. Possible combos these ATs can allow.

I was also wondering if Link could make use of the Zair>Pivot Land>Bair as well as TL.

Though as far as Jab locks. There is that japanese video up with multiple Jab locks Strats. Maybe start with catalog those first and move on from there. So as to both having someplace to begin as well as no repeating ourselves.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Though as far as Jab combos. There is that japanese video up with multiple Jab Cancel Strats. Maybe start with catalog those first and move on from there. So as to both having someplace to begin as well as no repeating ourselves.

Assuming you are talking about the Jab Locks and not the Jab combos, this is a briliant idea. Inspired, one might say.


As for SMSing and Wavebouncing with Link, I'd imagine it'd be just as useful. The Jerk is amazing with Link! Seriously. I can do it quite easily even with a game cube controler (I use Wiichuck normally, but I was showing Scabe how to do it using his controler.)
It actually is pretty easy to perform once you get the hang of it, but there's just so much to rap your head around. Anyway, in the second post, I explain an easy way to do it (in the Note) and I talk you through step by step. So if you want to learn it, go for it.

I don't think any of those AT's would allow any new combos that could not be done previously, but that's just an educated guess.

The Pivot Land, again, I need to see your frame data. I'm not sure if you could combo Zair into Bair. Toon's Bair comes out on frame 6 from memory. Link's frame data really should be one of the stickies or at least in one of the stickies.

 

[Ryos4]

Yes im stupid. I could have sworn i edited it though but i guess not.

Also idk if this is actually correct but i found this frame data thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228233

Says Link's bair comes out at 6. Though i think its more about when Link actually gets into the air when you jump.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Nope, apparently the hitbox comes out on frame 6. This is good news. You should be able to true combo Zair into Bair. If it works anything like Toon's Zair to Nair true combo that is. I'm pretty sure Toon can also do a Zair to Bair true combo but it's harder, which is the same position Link is in, so this should work. Having to pivot would affect things though... so the pivot land is probably necessary to speed things up. This will have to be tested. I have an exam tomorow and a whole heap of stuff later on this week, but I'll get around to testing it if no one else does.

Oh and thanks for the link. I'll add it in the OP just because that sort of thing is important.

 

[Ryos4]

NP

I can possibly attempt to test it. But to be honest i don't have the fingers that can handle that many button inputs that fast in a match, though i might be able to get it down in training more or something. Probably would be better to try against a live player.

 

[Scabe]

I really want to find some good use with Link's Hyrulian shield or whatever it's called.

Do you think Link gets any stun from being hit with his shield?

Also do the questions in the OP still need answering?

Everyone remember that you can save your replays and send them to me for recording!

So if you've got some cool stuff from testing that you want to show, go into a match do your testing, make sure to end the match before 3 minutes unless you have infinite replays.

We need to start getting some video proof of all this!

As for stuff in training mode, you won't be able to save what you do.

 

[Anonano]

Yes im stupid. I could have sworn i edited it though but i guess not.

Also idk if this is actually correct but i found this frame data thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228233

Says Link's bair comes out at 6. Though i think its more about when Link actually gets into the air when you jump.

This is the old, incorrect frame data thread. I remember there used to be a thread on SWF that had the up-to-date info but I can't find it right now. Sorry.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@Scabe: The questions in the OP, or rather the discussions, don't ever have to end. Even if a conclusion is reached, discussion could still continue on the topic about anything to do with it.
And I think there is some sort of shield hitstun, but instead of the normal shield, you have all your options. It's not much hitstun, like a few frames, but it'd be there. That's just me guessing though, you'd need to get some frame data on it. Maybe we could ask EA. He's normally ok with helping me with that stuff.

@Anonano: Darn.... So we shouldn't use it? Like how bad is it? What's wrong with it? Does anyone know what happened to the real one?
Must have frame data 0_o

 

[Ryos4]

Well there is one in AiB
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=124952
But oddly enough this one says its even faster, 5, unless im looking at the wrong attack. Go figure. Maybe someone should do it again here just to be sure. Though i haven't the slightest idea how to actually go about doing frame data.

 

[Anonano]

That's the right one, Negi. The old thread was a few frames off on a lot of moves is what the problem was. The second one is most accurate. I'd use the AiB one for now when discussing frames and such.

 

[Rizen]

Well there is one in AiB
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=124952

That's where I got my data. It's accurate.

Something Kirinblaze does is Bair and reverse quickdraw as he lands. I wonder if Link was high enough if we could Bair>Reverse Zair by buffering.?

I'll get back to you guys with some Hylian shield tests. Keep in mind it's only to save slight shield pressure and a few shield drop frames when dealing with range: Power shielding's always better.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Good news.
I replaced the link in the OP with the aib frame data, but that's not the news.

I love frame data.
After skimming through it I found that Jab comes out on frame 6, and so does D-smash. So why doesn't D-smash true combo from the Bair on every character the same way Jab (almost) does? A most interesting question, one that I couldn't ignore.
The answer is of course that Jab hits up higher than D-smash. So by the time most people get in range of D-smash, it's no longer a true combo. I didn't test it on everyone yet (I swear I will soon), but I was able to true combo the first hit of Bair cancelled on the ground into a turn around D-smash on Kirby, Fox and Falco. Wolf didn't seem to work. I tried Kirby first simply because MK is just a Kirby in a mask (and this proves it beyond doubt XD) and then of course I check the spacies because they are the spacies. I'll check everyone else with D-smash and U-tilt soon.

 

[Scabe]

I have something to test. I've noticed that link gets different lengths on his DACUS. Is there anyway you can test out the timing for each one?

 

[Anonano]

Fox, the work you're doing is fabulous. I hope to see you still discovering stuff when I get back in two years. ;D ;D ;D

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

2 years?!? Where are you going? They don't have the internet where you're going? You've been awesome to work with though, thanks for your help. You know I'll still be discovering stuff, it's in my nature. See ya around then.

@Scabe: I spose, but it'd be a rough explanation even if you did it with frame hax which I don't have (or need). Are you hoping for some sort of visual cue to get it as long or as short as possible? I'm just wondering what you're hoping for that's all.

 

[Scabe]

Actually I don't think it be useful to look into that, too complicated I think and not too useful.

Anyways I'll get that video happening with some ideas I got.

 

[Ryos4]

Maybe it's like Pit's Usmash slide. It has severely different lengths. Last i heard it was thought to be based on which foot was on the ground while the running animation went into the DAC or hyphen Usmash, which ever it is for Pit.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey Scabe, after testing the D-smash and U-tilt follow ups, I quickly looked into the DACUS lengths and I'm fairly certain that it has to do with when you cancel the Dash attack, specifically, Link will do a short slide if you do a really quick DACUS and he will do a longer slide the later you cancel it. So he will do a much longer slide if you cancel the Dash attack as late as possible without it not canceling at all. This was pretty simple for me to test because doing DACUS's is really stupidly easy with a wiichuck set up if you have the down on the D-pad as C-stick down. I actually had to hold myself back from doing it too quickly (I could easily do the short slide evey time) and every time I delayed it a tiny bit, Link would slide a lot further. I hope this helps.


Ok, so as you may have just read, yes, I finished the Bair to U-tilt or D-smash tests on every character. I'll give you the highlights and then, because I intend to quote part of this post, I'll do a list of every character and the confirmed true combos we have on them out of the Bair. In the event that we find another follow up, perhaps a grab, then I'll simply edit the list which will be in the OP.

Ok, so for all those who don't want to go through the list, these are the highlights. Just over half the cast of characters were able to be U-tilted, these are Mario, Luigi, Peach, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Sheik, Toon Link, ZSS, Pit, IC's, Kirby, MK, Olimar, Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Squirtle, Jigglypuff, Marth, Ness, Lucas, Mr GaW and Sonic. Only 8 lucky members of the cast were able to be D-smashed. All Characters that can be D-smashed can be U-tilted as well. The Characters that can be D-smashed are, ZSS, Kirby, MK, Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Squirtle and Mr GaW.


For the record, these were all tested in training mode and if I say it's a true combo, what I mean to say is the game registered it as a "consecutive hit". The way I performed the combos was I did a SH, as soon as I could I Fast falled and hit Bair at the same time (Bair with C-stick), rolled the joystick from down (the fast fall) to towards the opponent while I was falling (to turn around as soon as I land) and then performed the move that is specified. You may find an easier way to perform it for you, but this is the way that I would advise for it to be performed if you asked me.


True combo follow ups to the first hit of Bair cancelled on the ground.

Mario: Jab and U-tilt
Luigi: Jab and U-tilt.
Peach: Jab and U-tilt.
Bowser: He's immune.
Donkey Kong: Jab.
Diddy Kong: Jab and U-tilt.
Yoshi: Jab.
Wario: Jab.
Link: Jab.
Zelda: Jab and U-tilt.
Sheik: Jab and U-tilt.
Ganondorf: Jab.
Toon Link: Jab and U-tilt.
Samus: Jab.
ZSS: Jab, U-tilt and D-smash.
Pit: Jab and U-tilt.
Ice Climbers: Jab and U-tilt.
R.O.B.: Jab.
Kirby: Jab, U-tilt and D-smash.
Meta Knight: Jab, U-tilt and D-smash.
King D3: Jab.
Olimar: Jab and U-tilt.
Fox: Jab, U-tilt and D-smash.
Falco: Jab U-tilt and D-smash.
Wolf: Jab.
Captain Falcon: Jab.
Pikachu: Jab, U-tilt and D-smash.
Ivysaur: Jab.
Charizard: Jab.
Squirtle: Jab, U-tilt and D-smash.
Lucario: Jab.
Jigglypuff: Jab and U-tilt.
Marth: Jab and U-tilt.
Ike: Jab.
Ness: Jab and U-tilt.
Lucas: Jab and U-tilt.
Mr GaW: Jab, U-tilt and D-smash.
Snake: Jab.
Sonic: Jab and U-tilt.

That's all for now.

 

[Scabe]

Fantastic job Foxy! I really need to learn how to pivot now. And that DACUS thing was interesting as well.

 

[Ryos4]

lol i love that Bowser's immune. The fatty finally catches a break.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@Scabe: The Pivot is simple. If you read what I wrote on how I perform it, you just hold towards them as soon as you fast fall (just sort of quickly quarter circle roll the joystick from down to left or right depending on where they are) this will automatically make you pivot asap when you land. Try it first with a Bair to D-smash (using C-stick for the D-smash) and you'll find you might actually have to wait a tiny bit before you D-smash. The timing is a bit specific but it's not hard. I can do it quite easilly now especially after all that testing. Just muck around with it against someone like Fox (he's not too small and he gets hit by D-smash) for a while and I'm quite confident you'll get the hang of it in like 10 minutes. You really should learn to pivot this otherwise you're not taking advantage of it to it's full potential as your just hitting them with Bair in your body close to the front so you don't have to pivot. Take advantage of the slight range on Bair, combined with the randomness of the SH fast fall and this move is quite solid and could help you get that guaranteed D-smash kill in any of those 8 matchups.


@Ryos4: It's good that it's someone like Bowser that gets to be immune and not someone like MK or Falco. At least with Bowser we don't have a problem matchup wise.

 

[Huggles828]

Actually, that is really nice. A lot of those characters beat Link up pretty badly, like Fox and Falco, MK, Squirtle, Shockrat, Kirby, and G&W. Having an ace up our sleeves like that might help a bit. You said the dsmash is absolutely guaranteed on these characters if done correctly, Foxy? And that barring Bowser it truly combos into at least a jab on EVERYBODY? Wow!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If you don't screw up, yes it's guaranteed.

So what next guys? We still have that idea to find new jab lock set ups which should definitely happen. But first I'll have to go through that vid, you know the one, and create a list of all the already known ways to set up jab locks. Then it's just a matter of getting out there, being creative and figuring out some more.

But are there any other ideas while I get that vid written up in detail?

 

[Scabe]

Let's focus on the effect of the Boomerang returning. Needs a cool name like Gale return or something.

For a jab lock set up. When the boomerang returns, if you Dtilt, the opponent get's hit into the wind of the returning boomerang and they end up behind you. If they don't tech or airdodge, it's a jab lock set up! Works at any percent. Deadly on heavy characters since the timing for airdodge/tech is much faster. On lighter characters like Jigglypuff it's better to Fsmash.

At higher percents Uptilt works.

Upsmash can work too.

P.S. First hit of back air should have a cool name but nothing too fancy.

 

[Rizen]

The gale pull/push acts like a solid wall when a character hits it in hit stun from steep vertical angles. Hypothetically bombs, Dtilt, Usmash, Utilt, Dair, Dthrow, Uthrow, and Uair could 'gale spike' (like stage spike) into combos. Dtilt/Utilt/bombs are the only feasible options. Although, Dthrow might work if the gale's returning behind Link.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Nice contribution Scabe! If you look a little further down (the last one on the list) I've already added it!
But what list I hear you say? The list of known Jab lock set ups! I've gone through that vid and written up every set up that he did. Now it's up to us to make more!

A cool name for the First hit of Bair you say? I've never been good with cool names, I normally give them practical names, I'll have to think about that.


As promised, I've gone through the vid of jab locks and I've listed every way that he set them up. So read through, feel inspired and let's hear some discussion on finding some more jab lock set ups. I'll quote this post and a few others that lead to this post and create a new discussion in the OP. I will add any new ideas that you have to this list which will also of course remain in the OP.

Keep in mind that a lot of these are not guaranteed set ups, but who cares.


1. Throw Boomerang at them close up, walk forwards, Jab.

2. U-tilt a shielding enemy who is standing above you on a low platform, they fall off the platform in their tumble animation, when they land, simply Jab them.

3. Both you and your opponent stand on a low platform with the opponent standing near the edge of the platform. Jab him, he will fall off the platform in his tumble animation, you fall through the platform and when you land, Jab him.

4. Bomb pull, Full hop, throw the Bomb down just in front of your opponent, footstool them, Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab them.

5. Pull out a Bomb, Footstool a grounded opponent, throw the Bomb down, Footstool them again, Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab them.

6. Throw the Boomerang so that it misses the opponent, use the three hit Jab combo on the opponent so they get hit into the path of the returning Boomerang, they will be pulled back towards you, when they land Jab them.

7. Pull out a Bomb, Jump, double jump, throw the bomb down at the opponent, fast fall, Quickdraw in their direction, then Jab them.

8. Throw a Boomerang at the opponent up close, shoot an arrow, run up and Jab them? (in the vid he did not use this as a Jab lock set up but the arrow does lock them.)

9. SH, Bair so that the first hit misses them and so that the second hit hits them just as you land, run towards them, SH Nair so that you miss them on the way up, Fast fall the Nair, Jab them.

10. SH, wait a bit, Zair up close so that you hit them just as you land, run towards them, SH, Instantly footstool them, Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab them.

11. Against some characters, you can hit them with the first hit of Bair just as you land, SH towards them and Instantly footstool them, in the vid he followed this up with a Quickdraw to Jab, but the footstool is not guaranteed as they can always escape if they expect it (I already tested this).

12. Hit an opponent up against a wall (with the three hit Jab combo) and if they don't tech it, Jab them when they land.

13. As soon as you come back from losing a stock, Bomb pull, get close to them, throw the Bomb down at your feet then quickly jump towards them and footstool them and then land an Jab them..... (I have some serious doubts about this one.)

14. Footstool an opponent who is jumping up from the edge, Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab them.

15. Against some characters (I presume) SH, Zair them close up, D-tilt them (it should spike them into the ground) then Jab them.

16. ....this one's silly. Grab them, Up-throw them, SH, Footstool them, Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab them. (maybe this is hoping they will airdodge through you expecting you to attack them, and then you footstool them just as their invincibility frames run out?)

17. Throw the Boomerang up really close, SH, Instantly Footstool them, Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab them.

18. On slower falling characters, Jab them twice, Jab cancel, SH, Instantly Footstool them, Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab them.

19. Throw the Boomerang so it misses them, Pull out a bomb, Throw the bomb at them, they will get pulled back by the returning Boomerang, SH, Footstool them, Nair, Fast fall the Nair, Jab them.

20. Lol.... Pull out a Bomb, Full hop, Double Jump, Z-drop the Bomb, Fast fall to the other side of the opponent and D-tilt. The Bomb will hit them and then they'll get spiked into the ground by the D-tilt and then you Jab them.

21. Throw the Boomerang at your opponent from close up, Run towards them, SH wait a bit, Fair so that you hit them with the First hit of Fair then Instantly land, Jab them.

22. SH, Zair up close to them just before you land, Run forwards a tiny bit, SH Instantly Footstool them, Fast fall, Quickdraw towards them, Jab them.

23. Throw a Boomerang so that it misses your opponent, wait a bit, D-tilt them into the returning Boomerang, they will get caught by it, if they don't airdodge or tech then walk up to them and Jab them when they land.

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[Scabe]

You can also Fthrow into the Gale Return for a jab lock set up. I think I do it against Ted in an actual match, I say think because.

1:03: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JwFWBvPEW4

Anyways with the Gale Return there's quite alot of possibility for combos.

Usually when you throw a bomb the boomerang and it hits the opponent. The Boomerang pulls them in setting you up for a free hit. I think Fair is usually the bets since both hits will connect iirc?

I wish Dair would work constintely but it does the Gale Return does that thing where it saves the opponent rather then getting killed by the Dair.

Also in teams I've had some amazing saves with the Gale Return. It's actually saved my partner a few times when he would have died.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Nice stuff again Scabe! Two new discussion in one day. My gosh.
I'll spilt up and quote your post in the relevant discusions.

Edit: I should probably let you guys know, I'm heading off to my bro's for the weekend, so I won't be on here till like Monday night. Keep the discussions going in my absence. I'll update it all again when I get back.
Catcha!

 

[Ryos4]

Is it possible to tech the boomerang return pull?

 

[Scabe]

Foxy you should come to ACT this weekend.

You know how lvl 9 CPU's tech and airdodge everything? Well they do it for Gale Return stuff when they get hit into them. But there's still a bit of vulnerability before they can airdodge.

 

[Ryos4]

I mean when you hit the ground after being pulled into it. Like jab combo into rang pull and they hit the ground behind you. Can you tech that?