SD Remix - 3.3 Full with Slippi Rollback Released!

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

@ Achilles1515 Once Ness's UpB behavior and Yo-yo behavior from 1.00 is isolated and "ported" to 1.02, I don't think anyone will have any qualms about switching to 1.02.

 

[Jaedrik]

Then, another update soon?!
I'm excited, since I already have a 1.02 ISO because I forgot I was supposed to get a 1.00 ISO
I'm too lazy to even learn if it would be any trouble to switch. That and I don't want to download another ISO.

 

[Quillion]

@ Achilles1515 Once Ness's UpB behavior and Yo-yo behavior from 1.00 is isolated and "ported" to 1.02, I don't think anyone will have any qualms about switching to 1.02.

Are you going to release a version that you install with 1.00 and another you install with 1.02? I think that would be the best solution.

Also, was it really not possible to port over those "techniques" from 1.00 to 1.02 until now?

 

[Achilles1515]

I see in the download files that there is a PlMs.dat file. Was something changed with Marth?

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

I see in the download files that there is a PlMs.dat file. Was something changed with Marth?

Yes and no. The PlMs.dat just reverts the Marth changes from the old SD Remix builds. It's put there so players don't have to start from a fresh ISO to update.

I'm too lazy to even learn if it would be any trouble to switch. That and I don't want to download another ISO.

You will not need to 'switch' ISOs. When SD Remix does change to 1.02, you will not notice anything different gameplay wise (assuming 1.00 tricks work as intended). The only benefits are:

1) Integration with 20XX becomes possible
2) More access to cheat codes if you use them (which is roughly the same benefit as above)

Are you going to release a version that you install with 1.00 and another you install with 1.02? I think that would be the best solution.

Also, was it really not possible to port over those "techniques" from 1.00 to 1.02 until now?

If achilles can port over all the relevant 1.00 oddities over to 1.02, we will simply abandon 1.00. Since main.dol/Start.dol more or less determines the version, moving to 1.02 will not affect anything for people already playing SD Remix.

Porting these techniques to 1.02 is no easy task. I have tremendous respect for Achilles for taking the time to scour 1.00 and attempt to "reverse engineer" the tricks back into 1.02. Remember, not everything in the .DOL is (or possibly ever will be) understood 100%.

There are currently no plans to release a gameplay update.

I personally think the game balance mix is very good right now, and just needs players to actually push the cast to their limits.

 

[Quillion]

Yes and no. The PlMs.dat just reverts the Marth changes from the old SD Remix builds. It's put there so players don't have to start from a fresh ISO to update.



You will not need to 'switch' ISOs. When SD Remix does change to 1.02, you will not notice anything different gameplay wise (assuming 1.00 tricks work as intended). The only benefits are:

1) Integration with 20XX becomes possible
2) More access to cheat codes if you use them (which is roughly the same benefit as above)



If achilles can port over all the relevant 1.00 oddities over to 1.02, we will simply abandon 1.00. Since main.dol/Start.dol more or less determines the version, moving to 1.02 will not affect anything for people already playing SD Remix.

Porting these techniques to 1.02 is no easy task. I have tremendous respect for Achilles for taking the time to scour 1.00 and attempt to "reverse engineer" the tricks back into 1.02. Remember, not everything in the .DOL is (or possibly ever will be) understood 100%.

There are currently no plans to release a gameplay update.

I personally think the game balance mix is very good right now, and just needs players to actually push the cast to their limits.

So what happens when a characters suddenly gets to the top tier in vMelee? I'm sure you've heard of aMSa and his consistent high-placing Yoshi playing which will undoubtedly affect the metagame. Are you going to revert that character back to vMelee?

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

So what happens when a characters suddenly gets to the top tier in vMelee? I'm sure you've heard of aMSa and his consistent high-placing Yoshi playing which will undoubtedly affect the metagame. Are you going to revert that character back to vMelee?

SD Remix has reached a point where I would strongly oppose any reactionary buffing/nerfing. So the short answer is no.

I do think Yoshi players would have a field day with SDR Yoshi, however.

 

[C0rvus]

I can't wait to try this out. Been looking at it for a while.

 

[Quillion]

So I came across this guy in another part of this site expressing concern about how because the speed gap between the speedsters and glaciers is still fairly wide, that the game still isn't balanced because the speedsters can still easily intercept slow attacks.

So, @ sdremix_troubleshooter (Vietgeek) and @ Ripple , how exactly do you determine a proper balance considering this in mind?

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

Well, he's right, you know?

Melee in particular is not a game that favors slow characters. Its mechanics are very explicit in their bias toward faster characters. This is why almost everyone in SDR was given some combination of wavedash/ground speed/air mobility modifications as well as faster moves where appropriate.

Absolute balance isn't the end goal. There are certainly characters that are so faulted in their design that they are "irredeemable." For example, you can't expect Bowser, Roy, or Zelda to be fantastic characters unless you give them something utterly degenerate and/or strongly deviates from their core Melee gameplay. That said, these characters have tools to work around their weaknesses, but a varied cast will always lead to bad match-ups.

It would be silly to think otherwise, and just as silly to try to actively deter how the game as an 'organic system' leans toward this behavior.

 

[Quillion]

Well, he's right, you know?

Melee in particular is not a game that favors slow characters. Its mechanics are very explicit in their bias toward faster characters. This is why almost everyone in SDR was given some combination of wavedash/ground speed/air mobility modifications as well as faster moves where appropriate.

Absolute balance isn't the end goal. There are certainly characters that are so faulted in their design that they are "irredeemable." For example, you can't expect Bowser, Roy, or Zelda to be fantastic characters unless you give them something utterly degenerate and/or strongly deviates from their core Melee gameplay. That said, these characters have tools to work around their weaknesses, but a varied cast will always lead to bad match-ups.

So, between breaking the characters or drastically changing them, you'd rather not do either, huh? (sorry for invoking Snake)

It would be silly to think otherwise, and just as silly to try to actively deter how the game as an 'organic system' leans toward this behavior.

Well, there is Project M, but then again, that project has an entirely different goal than this project.

So, wait a minute; are you satisfied with the amount of balance there is or not? I apologize for any offense but it sounds like SD Remix just makes the non top-tier characters marginally less likely to lose when you put it that way.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Could somebody please PM me a download link to SD Remix 3.1 ISO? I do not have my computer atm so I cannot edit files.
I am going to bring my Wii with SD Remix to APEX so hopefully I can get some videos =)

 

[Quillion]

Could somebody please PM me a download link to SD Remix 3.1 ISO? I do not have my computer atm so I cannot edit files.
I am going to bring my Wii with SD Remix to APEX so hopefully I can get some videos =)

Do you have a copy of Melee itself? I suggest you use CleanRip to get the vMelee ISO and just patch it using the stuff Vietgeek posted.

Otherwise, I'd love to see the responses you get from the small presence of SDR at APEX.

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

So, wait a minute; are you satisfied with the amount of balance there is or not? I apologize for any offense but it sounds like SD Remix just makes the non top-tier characters marginally less likely to lose when you put it that way.

No offensive taken. I am quite happy with the current balance in v3.1. I wouldn't release it if I wasn't.

It is difficult to make blanket statements about game balance in general. I was merely demonstrating a point that some characters were poorly built. Even if you make them good, insanely good even, they are still poorly built. Kirby, despite being very terrible in Melee, is actually a well-built character with the basic outline of a solid moveset (he was top in N64, after all). It was easy to transform him into a decent character in SD Remix.

Bowser, on the other hand, took a lot of work to balance. Note I said "balance" and not "make good." Hard hitters have a very asymmetrical effect on the game balance. A Ganondorf or Bowser that could be strong enough to fight Falco reliably, for instance, would also likely imbalance the game further because other match-ups become slighted. This is precisely how power creep happens, and is a very real concept in about every Smash mod in existence (not to mention in games in general).

To clarify, SD Remix Bowser is arguably as good if not better than vMelee Ganondorf. And yes, I am insinuating that vMelee Ganondorf is not good. I also would wager that the majority of the 'competitive' Melee community probably has a tough time against Ganondorf despite his tameness at the top echelons of play. Balancing the game for the very top is just as bad as balancing it for the bottom-of-the-barrel level players. You have to find some middle ground that accommodates everybody as best as possible (and you still can't please everybody).

We could spend days upon days talking about balance. The important part of a game is whether or not it is fun. There are balanced games that are very boring, quite frankly. Likewise, there are poorly balanced games that many people enjoy. Melee, Marvel vs Capcom 2, etc. have widespread appeal. Enjoyment comes first, not last.

If you are going to make a Melee balance patch, it must, without any compromises, maintain the spirit of Melee. If you nerf the top tiers, you for one, distort the base line ("so what are you guys balancing against?"), and you alienate a significant portion of the potential players of an already niche mod. Lastly, you are essentially removing what made Melee fun to competitive players to begin with. Games should be fun. If they're not, why on Earth are you playing them?

 

[TTTTTsd]

And then you all made Pichu and unleashed the real monster of SD Remix. I am convinced he made a pact with Satan, he's just...insane. I talk about him a lot here but he really is THAT GOOD.

 

[Dark Iori Yagami]

Can i use the 20xx iso?

 

[Doq]

Can i use the 20xx iso?

It would for sure, it just wouldn't be 100% SD Remix, because of the Animation speed changes, and that SDR is 1.00 while 20XX is 1.02

 

[Cyjorg]

I'm confused why we don't port to 1.02 the FSM code and give it a debug toggle in 20XX like I did in my personal 1.00 hack pack.

Edit: tried to quote @ Doq but it didn't work?

 

[zankyou]

I'm confused why we don't port to 1.02 the FSM code and give it a debug toggle in 20XX like I did in my personal 1.00 hack pack.

View attachment 37083

Edit: tried to quote @ Doq but it didn't work?

Could you explain how you edited the debug menu?

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

I'm confused why we don't port to 1.02 the FSM code and give it a debug toggle in 20XX like I did in my personal 1.00 hack pack.

View attachment 37083

Edit: tried to quote @ Doq but it didn't work?

I assume you mean your personal 1.02 hack pack?

The short answer as to why the move to 1.02 hasn't happened yet is because not all relevant 1.00 features have been ported over yet. Ness especially was balanced around his 1.00 only mechanics. I cannot in good conscience recommend players to play a "half-baked" SD Remix.

Don't get me wrong though, I think your idea is pretty sweet.

 

[Doq]

I'm confused why we don't port to 1.02 the FSM code and give it a debug toggle in 20XX like I did in my personal 1.00 hack pack.

View attachment 37083

Edit: tried to quote @ Doq but it didn't work?

Because theres nothing to quote.

The FSM was ported to 1.02.
-----
I'm still confused as all hell about the debug menu.

 

[Cyjorg]

Could you explain how you edited the debug menu?

Not yet. My methods are sloppy. Like Achilles, I'm sure there's a better way to do it and I'd rather wait until I have a better grasp on what I'm doing before I attempt to explain it to someone else.

I assume you mean your personal 1.02 hack pack?

The short answer as to why the move to 1.02 hasn't happened yet is because not all relevant 1.00 features have been ported over yet. Ness especially was balanced around his 1.00 only mechanics. I cannot in good conscience recommend players to play a "half-baked" SD Remix.

Don't get me wrong though, I think your idea is pretty sweet.

I actually have a 1.00 ISO because I didn't know that the FSM code had been ported already and really wanted the ability to toggle SD Remix characters. Also, what specific mechanics/traits/attributes are holding it back? I'd love to help out.

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

I actually have a 1.00 ISO because I didn't know that the FSM code had been ported already and really wanted the ability to toggle SD Remix characters. Also, what specific mechanics/traits/attributes are holding it back? I'd love to help out.

To quote:

@ Achilles1515 Once Ness's UpB behavior and Yo-yo behavior from 1.00 is isolated and "ported" to 1.02, I don't think anyone will have any qualms about switching to 1.02.

I imagine it's quite difficult and would require a fair bit of bug testing even after you've isolated the relevant addresses, but if you would like to try at it, by all means.

 

[_Snover_]

Hi! Noob question here:
I was preparing the SD card, so entered CMD and tried to use the GCReEx command but I kept getting an error.

Any help?? GCReEx.exe is in the same folder as ssbm.gcm...

 

[Doq]

Not yet. My methods are sloppy. Like Achilles, I'm sure there's a better way to do it and I'd rather wait until I have a better grasp on what I'm doing before I attempt to explain it to someone else.

10s

Looks like I'll need to wait even longer to figure this out. Thanks.

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

Hi! Noob question here:
I was preparing the SD card, so entered CMD and tried to use the GCReEx command but I kept getting an error.

Any help?? GCReEx.exe is in the same folder as ssbm.gcm...

Hi _Freeze_, if GCReEx.exe is in the same folder as ssbm.gcm, then:

instead of typing: "cd d:\DML\"

type 'cd <complete directory path of the folder the GCM and .exe are in>'

For example, if they were located on your Desktop, you'd type something like:

cd C:\Users\Jojo\Desktop\

Also, if gcreex doesn't work, try gcreex.exe like so:

gcreex.exe -x ssbm.gcm

 

[_Snover_]

Hi _Freeze_, if GCReEx.exe is in the same folder as ssbm.gcm, then:

instead of typing: "cd d:\DML\"

type 'cd <complete directory path of the folder the GCM and .exe are in>'

For example, if they were located on your Desktop, you'd type something like:

cd C:\Users\Jojo\Desktop\

Also, if gcreex doesn't work, try gcreex.exe like so:

gcreex.exe -x ssbm.gcm

AFAIK my pathing is fine,

but the problem still persists

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

AFAIK my pathing is fine,

but the problem still persists

When you use the cd command, the next line prompt should be the directory you type (i.e. D:\DML1\DML) instead of "C:\Users\Jojo." That's not happening, so this is very strange.

If possible, try to do what you've been doing but with admin rights enabled. If that fails, move all the contents to your C drive and adjust accordingly.

 

[_Snover_]

When you use the cd command, the next line prompt should be the directory you type (i.e. D:\DML1\DML) instead of "C:\Users\Jojo." That's not happening, so this is very strange.

If possible, try to do what you've been doing but with admin rights enabled. If that fails, move all the contents to your C drive and adjust accordingly.

Thanks!!! It worked when I switched to the C:\ drive. Was reluctant to since it's my SSD :S

 

[Achilles1515]

I guess I'm too stupid to know what the difference is between Ness' ledge yo-yo charge between the two versions.

So I play 1.02, go to FD, walk to the left edge, face away from the stage, and I can charge downsmash but not upsmash. If I turn around in this position and face in towards the stage, I can charge upsmash but not downsmash.

Then I play 1.00 and it's the exact same thing?

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

I guess I'm too stupid to know what the difference is between Ness' ledge yo-yo charge between the two versions.

So I play 1.02, go to FD, walk to the left edge, face away from the stage, and I can charge downsmash but not upsmash. If I turn around in this position and face in towards the stage, I can charge upsmash but not downsmash.

Then I play 1.00 and it's the exact same thing?

@ Ripple do you remember what the exact difference was?

 

[flieskiller]

I'm not sure, but my guess is: When the yo-yo starts to spin on itself, in 1.00 it's when it touches a wall, even if the wire is going in down direction (as close to the ledge).

In 1.02, there is a maximum angle that the wire can angle before it cannot be hold and released automatically. This is why if you are on the limit of the ledge and you try to smash outside, you are still too far and the yo-yo doesn't touch the ledge below, so can't be smashed. So I think you can charge the yo-yo closer to the ledge in 1.00.

 

[Doq]

AFAIK my pathing is fine,

but the problem still persists

C:\Users\Jojo>D:

then you should be fine.

 

[Achilles1515]

D-Smash

1.00 Closest to Edge

1.02 Closest to Edge

U-Smash

1.00 Closest to Edge

1.02 Closest to Edge

What am I missing?

 

[flieskiller]

from this page: http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_regional_version_differences_(SSBM)

"There is a long standing rumor that Ness can charge his Yo-Yos over an edge in 1 of the versions and not others. This rumor is false, in all versions of Melee, Ness cannot charge his smashes over an edge."

 

[sdremix_troubleshooter]

Well, color me surprised. I learned something new today.

So the only thing left to "port over" is actually just PK Thunder's behavior when Ness is hit.

 

[Ripple]

I missed everything but I don't consider that charging over the edge.

I'm the one who made most of that wiki entry

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I would really need the ISO asap because I cannot edit stuff on a library computer...

 

[Quillion]

I would really need the ISO asap because I cannot edit stuff on a library computer...

Are you unable to use Gcreex? If I recall, that works without installation.

 

[_glook]

I would really need the ISO asap because I cannot edit stuff on a library computer...

I'm probably going to delete it tomorrow.

EDIT:
Sorry, you can’t post download links to ISOs in these public forums. - Achilles