Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[Walt]

In the like one and one half friendlies I played with johnny the thought went through my head "man he is so bad at edgegaurding I wonder if I can just up-b anywhere and make it back?" then I just up-b'd onto the stage when he wasn't even holding the ledge, he ran up and tried to dtilt me, it missed then I grabbed him.

 

[Tekk]

I've still never seen Johnny do the get up attack to edgeguard, which is super underrated imo... if a spacie is using firefox and you can't tell if they'll make it, just refresh your ledge invincibility then do a get up attack. If they don't make it, you still "claim" the ledge for just as much time as you would with a ledge roll. If they did make it, you get to hit them back out with the get up attack.

Exactly what I do most of the time, it's really useful.

 

[Deleted member]

screw u guys

i don't need edgeguarding

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ledge getup attacks dont have invincibility all the way through to the hitbox, so i dont generally like using them against spacies cause of the lingering hitbox. I think its better against characters like marth or falcon/ganon.

 

[Palpi]

I agree with sveet, it is sick against marth.

 

[Da Shuffla]

But with those characters, can't you just ledgehop>Knee?

 

[Kason Birdman]

yeah I generally just ledge hop knee falcon/ganon. I mean comeo on its falcon/ganon you could probably edgeguard them with any move lol/

 

[Divinokage]

Ledgehop dair into reverse knee when someone lands on stage with landing lag is generally the best option that is of course the % is favorable for that. If the % is too high, well just knee lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Omg the ledgehop dair->knee **** pisses me off when i get hit by it. So powerful!

And yes, you can ledgehop reverse knee those characters shuffla, but alternatively you can getup attack which covers them not making stage and reverse hits them back off if they were going to make stage. ledgehop knee is probably the better tournament option since it involves less options for the person being edgeguarded.

 

[Roneblaster]

youre fired johnny.

 

[Winston]

If you hold in...good foxes will just d smash you instead of going for that last shine in the wave shine. =(

Fox's dsmash is incredibly weak, what are you afraid of? haha

but yeah SDI shines away into fastfall. yup

when SDIing the shines in a sequence of waveshines try to plan it so that the last shine won't be close enough to the edge for dsmash to be threatening, but close enough so that you can reach it and fastfall before they get there.

Omg the ledgehop dair->knee **** pisses me off when i get hit by it. So powerful!

And yes, you can ledgehop reverse knee those characters shuffla, but alternatively you can getup attack which covers them not making stage and reverse hits them back off if they were going to make stage. ledgehop knee is probably the better tournament option since it involves less options for the person being edgeguarded.

I dont really like reverse hitting marth like that since it's not guaranteed you'll get to hit him, since Falcon doesn't have an amazing invincible ledgehop bair like spacies do that cover a huge arc. I like the refresh invincibility -> ledgehop stomp -> knee vs marth.

vs Falcon/ganon: stand on stage first. Hit their down B on reaction if they do it. If they up B sorta high and are trying to go for pullback nonsense then just knee their up B, dont mess around with grabbing the edge. Double bair also works at mid percent, it's easier to hit. If they up B low, grab the edge and do the ledgehop stomp -> reverse knee or the reverse knee. Reversing it is critical.

vs. Spacies if they don't shorten: stand onstage, react to high up bs by jumping offstage and uairing them, ftilt to cover sweetspot illusion attempts, grab the edge and knee the firefox if on a stage where they don't have options with up b angles. (A big reason Battlefield is great vs Spacies, imo.) Otherwise... try to figure something out. Ledgehop stomp -> bair the tech firefox seems to work vs a lot of people. I've heard onstage stomp -> edge cancel edgehog isnt too hard to do and it beats the tech -> illusion, but I've never done it myself. Utilt is fine if it's falco or if they're at a high enough percent. At some angles ledgehop bair regrab covers a ton of options.

At mid percents for moves that don't knock him too far offstage, jumping out with a sh knee covers like 80% of falco's options, including the ones he'll do most often. Use sparingly though, as it's too risky if they predict it.

The move im not quite sure about optimal use for is the ledgehop reverse uair thing. It seems to work pretty well but I dont have a ton of experience with it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

something i see hax do against marth: double jump backwards to avoid the upb hitbox and then edgehog. if marth went on stage reverse knee.

 

[Winston]

Right, that's what I mean by refresh invincibility. It should be one of the default option vs Marth (unless Marth is far away enough so that you can DEFINITELY lightshield edgeguard), but for whatever reason it hasn't caught on yet it seems. The advantage is you can cover an extra trajectory (the middle height recovery), not just the low one.

If he comes back in a middle trajectory, refresh, then do invincible ledgehop bair regrab once he gets within range. This'll hit him guaranteed if he's in that area cause it covers airdodging and etc.

So he has to drop lower to avoid that. Once that happens it's too late to lightshield edgehog, but then you can do the hax thing.

Refresh your invincibility in a way so that you avoid the sword trajectory. Basically, first refresh invincibility normally by dropping down, and then once he gets within range so that he could hit your normal refresh with his up B, start doing the high and away ledgehops. One of the two ledgehop methods will be safe vs his possible up B trajectory at all times, so if you just judge this correctly he doesn't really have options besides landing onstage.

 

[Walt]

screw u guys

i don't need edgeguarding

You sure don't, you're like, best or second best falcon the world. Your edgegaurds can be kneeing people from the stage to the blast wall.

 

[0Room]

screw u guys

i don't need edgeguarding

Edgeguarding is like
The Lifeblood of this game

This entire game revolves around getting your opponent off the stage asap
So you do need good edgeguarding lolz

Also
Foxes down smash me all the time after a wave shine
I'm not really sure what to do about it

 

[Brookman]

don't get waveshined. That's about it / / /

 

[tarheeljks]

This entire game revolves around getting your opponent off the stage asap
So you do need good edgeguarding lolz

obv he's reinventing the metagame

 

[Winston]

Also
Foxes down smash me all the time after a wave shine
I'm not really sure what to do about it

how about

Fox's dsmash is incredibly weak, what are you afraid of? haha

but yeah SDI shines away into fastfall. yup

when SDIing the shines in a sequence of waveshines try to plan it so that the last shine won't be close enough to the edge for dsmash to be threatening, but close enough so that you can reach it and fastfall before they get there.

If you DI the dsmash well and you aren't at like the very edge of the stage when you get hit by it, you should be able to get back with your double jump up through mid-high percents.

 

[0Room]

Is it only Falco who has a weird middle dsmash hitbox?

 

[Brookman]

yeeeeeeeeeeeep

 

[Winston]

Fox has a middle dsmash hitbox that's significantly weaker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-H26667xBs

 

[0Room]

Right, for some reason I thought that video was with a Falco
Because I had seen it before

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm pretty sure i've shine->dsmashed a falcon as he was falling off the stage before he grabbed edge.

 

[0Room]

Yeah I think it's definitely doable to dsmash before you get there lol

edit;
btw I don't know if anyone's ever told you guys
But if you're being edgeguarded with dsmash by a Peach

Cc the first hit
and survival Di the second

You 99% of the time can get out of it that way.
/random thoughts about dsmash

 

[Winston]

I'm pretty sure i've shine->dsmashed a falcon as he was falling off the stage before he grabbed edge.

I don't think this is possible if you SDI the shine away and fastfall

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I was referring to someone who did not fast fall

 

[JPOBS]

vs. Spacies if they don't shorten: stand onstage, react to high up bs by jumping offstage and uairing them, ftilt to cover sweetspot illusion attempts, grab the edge and knee the firefox if on a stage where they don't have options with up b angles. (A big reason Battlefield is great vs Spacies, imo.) Otherwise... try to figure something out. Ledgehop stomp -> bair the tech firefox seems to work vs a lot of people. I've heard onstage stomp -> edge cancel edgehog isnt too hard to do and it beats the tech -> illusion, but I've never done it myself. Utilt is fine if it's falco or if they're at a high enough percent. At some angles ledgehop bair regrab covers a ton of options.

One thing my friend did once as falcon while I was playing fox was pretty damn pro.

He dair'd my firefox and then immediately short hopped off the stage and knee'd my walljump tech. Many lols were had.

 

[0Room]

One thing my friend did once as falcon while I was playing fox was pretty damn pro.

He dair'd my firefox and then immediately short hopped off the stage and knee'd my walljump tech. Many lols were had.

Good stuff
I was just talking to Hax about in your face Foxes

He was saying
Predict nairs->punish
Space so that your grab is right outside the shine range
Because apparently Grab range > Shine Range

That's pretty much what I got from that lol

 

[Walt]

grab range > shine range is what I learned from watching SS play Tang for a while before a tournament. He'd just throw him, stand there, jab missed tech, grab tech in place, and stomp techrolls. He would do it perfectly every time too.

When I do the predict nairs I try to mix up overshoot nairs, retreating nairs, in place nairs, as well as retreating knee.

 

[Windrose]

If you for see a nair coming...why not just space a stomp such that they land right under your stomp? do like a retreating stomp or something...sets up for a knee.

One thing my friend did once as falcon while I was playing fox was pretty damn pro.

He dair'd my firefox and then immediately short hopped off the stage and knee'd my walljump tech. Many lols were had.

I bet it was sauc3 who did this.

 

[Juggleguy]

Old trick JPOBS, Darkrain's been doin that for years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd6t2H6zgW8#t=1m16s

 

[Winston]

I interpreted jpobs' post to mean that he jumped off IMMEDIATELY and kneed jpobs while he was still in the walljump, as opposed to there where darkrain waited for the up B to start

 

[0Room]

I interpreted jpobs' post to mean that he jumped off IMMEDIATELY and kneed jpobs while he was still in the walljump, as opposed to there where darkrain waited for the up B to start

same

Does anyone do what Darkrain does and run off->bair?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i do run off bair with every character (but fox/falco) now. Its soooo goooood

 

[Roneblaster]

the only thing good about runoffbair is kneeing them if they dont tech and fall right in front of u.

 

[Divinokage]

It's so good? It's actually terrible. 2001 tactics. lol. Man if I see someone run-off they usually die. =P

 

[0Room]

Why do you say that?

 

[Winston]

Because they can tech it (which is a habit for most mid to high level players)... and then you're offstage... as falcon

 

[JPOBS]

Old trick JPOBS, Darkrain's been doin that for years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd6t2H6zgW8#t=1m16s

haha word. DR too good.

I interpreted jpobs' post to mean that he jumped off IMMEDIATELY and kneed jpobs while he was still in the walljump, as opposed to there where darkrain waited for the up B to start

Yea thats what I meant. He just guessed that I would walljump tech it then knee'd me before my firefox could start proper

 

[Divinokage]

Why do you say that?

Actually nm I said that, you guys assumed the opponent was off stage when you do that. I was thinking when you run off, then jump back on stage bair. When I see that, the falcon usually receives an outspaced punch. lol