Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[Juggleguy]

I've taken a page out of Darkrain's book and started using ftilt more. If you miss a tech chase sometimes a followup ftilt can catch spacies who try to run back in and **** you up. A uthrow ftilt can sometimes produce nice combo DI for a knee. Also, down angled ftilt edgeguard ***** double jumps.

 

[0Room]

I play some Fox/Falco's that do the same thing. It is so annoying, it made me replace like 50% of my nairs with knees. If they are gonna try to pull that CC BS I'm getting a knee and probably a grab.

Hax was talking about Baiting the CCs when I talked to him
And getting them out of their camp mode

basically the statement was like this
"You shouldn't really knee CCers, it doesn't do enough. What you should do is bait them with nairs and uairs then run away. After you condition them to not being able to punish it, they'll get frustrated and chase you. Then you stomp them. I say stomp because it usually beats any response to run away, since they're not really directed upwards."

He did say it doesn't really work on better players though, but it's worth a shot.

 

[Juggleguy]

I say stomp because it usually beats any response to run away, since they're not really directed upwards.

What on earth does this last line mean?

 

[0Room]

I say stomp because it usually beats any response to run away, since they're not really directed upwards.

What on earth does this last line mean?

You've got me.

I don't have picture perfect memory so I'm not sure if that was the exact quote.
but the main idea that is that stomp would beat the response they had to get him when he ran away [like grab, Dash attack, whatevs]

But I suppose when he was talking about better players responses, I figure their responses are better
Such as nair

Or something.
I'm not really sure on the entire philosophy going on there, but I felt like it was worth sharing, in case it helped someone else.

Also, ftilt is super useful in certain situations.
At Pound V I had never been uthrow->ftilted in CF dittos before, so that really got me. I wonder if it works on spacies.
And of course, to get rid of illusion recoveries, as opposed to dtilt, is useful too. It's always dependent on when you feel it should be used.

 

[tarheeljks]

I say stomp because it usually beats any response to run away, since they're not really directed upwards.

What on earth does this last line mean?

think he's saying you'll hit them more in this situation w/stomps than other moves b/c they are not above you

 

[0Room]

I would assume that's the idea.

On kind of a side note though, I've been watching a ton of videos the past few days, getting ready for G6 [and because I'm bored]
And I'm noticing how little people grab.

Why don't people grab?
You're CF
You are the best.
[I am the best, at grabbing?]
Yes.
[GRABBBBBBBBBBB]

[get the reference?]
But references to computer games aside, grabbing as CF is probably one of the best things you can do in this game. Probably Marth is the only person who's better at it.


tl;dr
grab moar

 

[Divinokage]

What makes you say CF is better at grabbing than Fox, Sheik and Falco? lol.

Edit: Well I guess Falco has barely anything out of grab.. however setting up the grab is different..

 

[0Room]

CF's ability to hold the control of the Match with his DD and speed, as well as his tech chase ability.
Fox is probably about the same I would say.

But I don't think Sheik is the same level.
She's close but not as good as those 2. Her Dsmash is stupid good though

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco has the best setup for grab in the game.

Samus players have the easiest time conditioning to allow a grab IMO

 

[0Room]

But Falco's grab game as a whole isn't really that great.

And what do you mean about the Samus players?

 

[Divinokage]

CF's ability to hold the control of the Match with his DD and speed, as well as his tech chase ability.
Fox is probably about the same I would say.

But I don't think Sheik is the same level.
She's close but not as good as those 2. Her Dsmash is stupid good though

I disagree, trying to techchase with Falcon is much harder than trying to techchase with Sheik. The Sheik character can react to whatever happens much easier than Falcon can.

 

[Winston]

I've taken a page out of Darkrain's book and started using ftilt more. If you miss a tech chase sometimes a followup ftilt can catch spacies who try to run back in and **** you up. A uthrow ftilt can sometimes produce nice combo DI for a knee. Also, down angled ftilt edgeguard ***** double jumps.

I've always thought nair is the best thing to do if you don't hit the techchase. It's less laggy than ftilt, has better followups, safe on block, etc.

I say stomp because it usually beats any response to run away, since they're not really directed upwards.

What on earth does this last line mean?

Pretty much nobody (except falcon) has an approaching aerial that hits diagonally forward + above. When you're doing a retreating stomp, they can't really hit you for that reason before the hitbox comes out.

So like if the fox is running after you and he does a nair, dash attack, running shine, continues to dash, whatever, you'll jump over all of that with the stomp and hit him.

I disagree, trying to techchase with Falcon is much harder than trying to techchase with Sheik. The Sheik character can react to whatever happens much easier than Falcon can.

The only thing Sheik really has on Falcon for reaction techchasing is a slightly better jab reset... which doesn't even work that well on spacies. Their ability to regrab techrolls and in-place techs is pretty similar. What makes it "much" easier?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But Falco's grab game as a whole isn't really that great.

And what do you mean about the Samus players?

Falco has the best setup for the grab. Ganon has the best throw. Sheik or Marth are pretty high on both sides of the field. Below those two I would put fox then falcon.

What I was talking about with samus is that samus players have a simpler time conditioning the opponent to shield due to her range/pokes and because she doesn't have a spammable grab. This leads to the opponent to expecting ftilt or jab or another attack, thus being conditioned into the perfect place for a grab from samus.

 

[0Room]

What I was talking about with samus is that samus players have a simpler time conditioning the opponent to shield due to her range/pokes and because she doesn't have a spammable grab. This leads to the opponent to expecting ftilt or jab or another attack, thus being conditioned into the perfect place for a grab from samus.

Gotcha. That makes sense, and is true for the most part.

Falco has the best setup for the grab.

And I apologize, but I'm just not sure what exactly you mean by this. I have a rough idea, but I want to be sure I have it right before I say anything about it.
Do you mind elaborating?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The best time to grab is when your opponent is shielding.

Falco's lasers are one of the most reliable ways to force someone to shield. Not to say someone is forced to shield against lasers, as there are definitely plenty of other (and probably better) things to do. But if you can't get someone to shield as falco, good luck getting them to shield with another character.

 

[Winston]

Falco has the best setup for the grab. Ganon has the best throw. Sheik or Marth are pretty high on both sides of the field. Below those two I would put fox then falcon.

Why does Ganon have the best throw?

Are you saying that based on his ability to theoretically CG fastfallers? Because otherwise, I don't see how it's better than Sheik's throw.

 

[Divinokage]

So why are we talking about throws now? lol.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Ganon can CG the most characters in the game, correct?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ganon has the most CGs and has guaranteed follow ups at more percents than sheik and on all characters (afaik).

 

[0Room]

The best time to grab is when your opponent is shielding.

Falco's lasers are one of the most reliable ways to force someone to shield. Not to say someone is forced to shield against lasers, as there are definitely plenty of other (and probably better) things to do. But if you can't get someone to shield as falco, good luck getting them to shield with another character.

Okay that's what I thought you were saying but I wasn't entirely sure. In that, I agree.

So why are we talking about throws now? lol.

Because throws are super important to this game and everyone undervalues them
Except M2K
He understood
In 2006
With Marth

 

[Brookman]

I am REALLY WAITING for someone to break Ganon's CG.

 

[Mogwai]

alot of ganon's CGs are really small frame windows to read DI though, it's tough.

 

[Walt]

Sheik has the best tools for techchasing with grabs because of where characters go out of dthrow, it's best to DI away from sheik on like, every grab, but you still don't very far. Giving her a much better spot to cover every option between Jab Resets, Boost Grabs, and the length of her standing grab allowing her to stand still, but out of range of shine on wake up.

Fox/Falcon are tied for second overall but Marth is probably better at lower percents when his opponents actually hit the floor near him.

 

[0Room]

Sheik has the best tools for techchasing with grabs because of where characters go out of dthrow, it's best to DI away from sheik on like, every grab, but you still don't very far. Giving her a much better spot to cover every option between Jab Resets, Boost Grabs, and the length of her standing grab allowing her to stand still, but out of range of shine on wake up.

Fox/Falcon are tied for second overall but Marth is probably better at lower percents when his opponents actually hit the floor near him.

But if you mix up your DI and the player doesn't catch on, then she CANNOT turn around and get you in time. [unless you're CF ]
Her DD is [almost] useless.

CF is much better in that respect.

 

[Walt]

But what if.... she does catch on? Idk I have a so much easier time techchasing with Sheik than with Falcon. But that might be a mental thing where I'm thinking I need to knee/stomp them when I really should just be gay and TC grab for like 50%.

 

[Brookman]

alot of ganon's CGs are really small frame windows to read DI though, it's tough.

*still waiting*

 

[0Room]

But that might be a mental thing where I'm thinking I need to knee/stomp them when I really should just be gay and TC grab for like 50%.

Yes you should.
Well, to a point.

A really interesting idea is the
"TC grab-only until you start seeing a pattern and figure out your opponent. Then you transition to stomps and knees. That way you have a better chance of hitting."

~......I don't remember who said it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Whoever it was knew their stuff

 

[Da Shuffla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZRKYpzgVSI

Bad DI?

And yes, I know the video is old.

Can I get more recent videos of Ganon's supposedly superior grab game?

 

[Walt]

No that wasn't bad DI. Just good work from the ganon.

 

[0Room]

That video was a video by Magus showing the 0-death on Falco
I believe it was not done with AR

As far as the quote I BELIEVE it was Hax but I'm not 110% sure.

 

[Deleted member]

i hate doing repeated tech chase regrabs

my play consists of me having a set covering in certain spots and then adjusting based on how opponent techs

a few regrabs though gives u a better idea of where they are going to tech

techchasing onto platforms makes following up way easier and is probably why FD is one of my worst stages

 

[Brookman]

s2j you tech chase on platforms with dair or what??

 

[ETWIST51294]

That video was a video by Magus showing the 0-death on Falco
I believe it was not done with AR

As far as the quote I BELIEVE it was Hax but I'm not 110% sure.

Nah that was Velocity.

 

[0Room]

The quote, or the video?

And Brookman, I know I do, but I saw GReg platform chase with nair xD
It was actually pretty interesting

 

[Deleted member]

i tech chase with d-air if i have time

n-air if i smack them onto top platform (or sometimes side plat)

n-air is good because you can adjust your positioning to make sure 2nd part of nair hits


up-air only if i literally can't hit them with anything else (up-air sucks if they crouch unless 100+ percent)

 

[Brookman]

dair is too good.

/favorite move


can sh dair under plats on ys/ps iirc.

 

[0Room]

Yeah I like dair too.
And yes you can. Nipple spikes. Upwards.

 

[ETWIST51294]

The quote, or the video?

And Brookman, I know I do, but I saw GReg platform chase with nair xD
It was actually pretty interesting

The video. I think I got confused. XD

 

[0Room]

The video. I think I got confused. XD

Are you sure?
I thought it was Magus but if it's Velocity, credit where it's due, you know?