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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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arrowhead

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when people say that melee is better than brawl, it is mostly irrelevant because brawl is the current smash bros. game. It doesn't matter what competitive means, it doesn't matter whether melee was better, regardless of the reasons. :ohwell:

Brawl has better graphics.
Brawl has more characters.
Brawl is what people are playing now.
Melee is old, and it is done.

To the people that keep saying that Melee is better, so what? Are you gonna go play Melee with your friends instead? If you only play competitively, are you going to Melee tourneys?:confused:
oh my god you are right! quality doesn't matter anymore because brawl is new! and we all know that newer is better!


*******
 

dj_pwn1423

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when people say that melee is better than brawl, it is mostly irrelevant because brawl is the current smash bros. game. It doesn't matter what competitive means, it doesn't matter whether melee was better, regardless of the reasons. :ohwell:

Brawl has better graphics.
Brawl has more characters.
Brawl is what people are playing now.
Melee is old, and it is done.

To the people that keep saying that Melee is better, so what? Are you gonna go play Melee with your friends instead? If you only play competitively, are you going to Melee tourneys?:confused:
maybe you didn't read the topic title?

of course if you think this discussion is pointless I don't really see why you are posting in this thread.





*played melee competitively, but thinks brawl is descent enough. so goes to brawl tourneys =3*
 

Clai

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no, actually fun has everything to do with it. the competing part IS the fun part. well, part of it anyway. brawl isn't fun because it lacks substance
Despite the fact that this statement contradicts itself, arrowhead is right. People go to tournaments to win, but how do they do the work to get there? Many people have crews that practice together to get their skills to the highest possible level. One of the major reasons people compete in the first place is to meet players of similar ability and to share their time and efforts with. I'll tell you, if I had a Melee crew to practice with, I would be playing Melee right now and I would hardly want to be presenting a case for Brawl right now. Alas, I do not have such crew, and thus I play the multiplayer game with other people.

I don't know how many times I've said this... the problem is not the lack of techs, it's the lack of speed and the fact that all your hard work rewards you with one hit. Believe me, I can mindgame w/the best, and the techs only helped to create more options. If Brawl offered options without techs, that'd be fine. That's actually what I expected. I don't require technical superiority to win, I'm tired of hearing that same old argument. If there was a bit less lag, or everything was auto L-cancelled or something, that'd be great.

And my god, it's so stupid to make the reward for intelligent play ONE hit, then you're back to square one. What a way to drag out an already slow game.

Enjoy your Brawl competition my friend, you'll have fun until money's on the line and you trip. Or you get spammed to death. Or you gets sick of playing against Snake. Just play casually with your friends, it'll be more fun... I wouldn't waste too much time on "high level" Brawl, I get the feeling it's not going to be a fun/long-lasting scene.
If you feel like you're saying this and I'm ignoring it, then I'm sorry. Perhaps the language wasn't clear on either side, but obviously this is the essence of the problem. To think that all the hard work leads to only one hit may be exaggerating a tad, but I understand where the frustration is coming from. I will need to experience high-level play myself, but I don't see how pressure play, while obviously not as efficient as Melee play, cannot eventually come through. It may take longer, but I think the rewards for intelligent play go beyond one hit (again, the rewards not as great as Melee, but enough to satisfy my style)

Once I find and get myself to a Brawl tournament, I will tell you about it. Whether the scene will be fun or long-lasting is up to the player's perception, but I have a feeling I will enjoy it. If I get spammed to death, I only have myself to blame for not thinking of a way to beat spamming. If I lose because of a random instance of tripping, I would think much more about the playing that put me in that position in the first place. Snake? If I'm going to be against as many as you're implying, I better find a way to beat them. I do know for sure, though, that I will never feel helpless in a tournament, as I've often felt in Melee tournaments.

I am not a noob in Melee.
 

RDK

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Holy ****, Dylan Tnga.

Also, to the Idealist: you're a complete ******. Just because a game is the newest installment in the series does not automatically excuse it from its blatantly obvious deficiencies (as is the case with Brawl).

And yes, almost anyone who was anyone in the Melee scene will still play Melee friendlies and hold Melee tournies. Look at GA.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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Yeah, Dylan's back.

This thread is about to take a turn for the way, way, worse...
Not yet, Im playing brawl for the first time tomorrow and will likely be bi***ing about it later. That's when I'll start some sh**

I don't remember you WuTangDude... Did I ever discuss stuffs with you on here?? :confused:
 

Artery_Clogger

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Brawl has better graphics.
Brawl has more characters.
Brawl is what people are playing now.
Melee is old, and it is done.
Brawl has something that doesn't affect gameplay.
Brawl has something else that doesn't affect gameplay.
Brawl is too cool for me.
Melee can beat you in tic-tac-toe.
 

WuTangDude

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Not yet, Im playing brawl for the first time tomorrow and will likely be bi***ing about it later. That's when I'll start some sh**

I don't remember you WuTangDude... Did I ever discuss stuffs with you on here?? :confused:
Now I merely sat back and watched the "Is anybody afraid Brawl could potentially suck?" thread, etc. You were very well-known amongst the posters back then.

And you're known for being really blunt about what you think, which is never a good thing.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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And you're known for being really blunt about what you think, which is never a good thing.
Sure it is, unless you're in the mob or something and could get killed for it. Naturally in my day-to-day affairs I generally keep the majority of my opinions to myself :p

Anyway ill stop spamming up this thread till I have an opinion which I will as usual, state bluntly.
 

Pink Reaper

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Now I merely sat back and watched the "Is anybody afraid Brawl could potentially suck?" thread, etc. You were very well-known amongst the posters back then.

And you're known for being really blunt about what you think, which is never a good thing.
I disagree with this statement. Sometimes things just need to be said and you shouldnt be afraid to say it because you think it will make someone angry/sad. If its true, its true. If its your opinion, then your entitled to it.
 

WuTangDude

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Sure it is, unless you're in the mob or something and could get killed for it. Naturally in my day-to-day affairs I generally keep the majority of my opinions to myself :p

Anyway ill stop spamming up this thread till I have an opinion which I will as usual, state bluntly.
Not treall,y becuase it basically makes you lose any repsect you could've gotten for stating your opinion.

For example, you Dylan, are a smart guy, no doubt, but the way express yourself on these boards alienates everyone to the point where they don't see it. It's you're back on posting, but keep your more negative posting habits on the side and I'm sure you'll get a lotta repsect from other smashers.
I was trying to be polite. :p

You must not be familiar with Dylan. Dylan's posting style is much more than just blunt. :p
 

chansen

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Now I merely sat back and watched the "Is anybody afraid Brawl could potentially suck?" thread, etc. You were very well-known amongst the posters back then.
I was much a part of that lil incident. We even made a whole forum out of spite. It was raw. I stood up for tnga cuz he knows whats up on the internet. Mad respect for Tnga.

Sure it is, unless you're in the mob or something and could get killed for it. Naturally in my day-to-day affairs I generally keep the majority of my opinions to myself :p

Anyway ill stop spamming up this thread till I have an opinion which I will as usual, state bluntly.
Getting cocky, tnga?
 

Endless Nightmares

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Brawl graphics + melee physics + both rosters + SMRPG representation + Golden Sun representation + Brawl music + Mario Kart's online = THE BEST GAME EVER.
 

Pink Reaper

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You really backed this claim up, I think we can close the thread now, smallmalf totally proved everyone else wrong and provided some great insight.
I think we should take it a step farther. With that incredible level of insight it would be meaningless to argue anything ever. Why, I dare say we may as well just shut down the internet as it really has become completely meaningless after that statement.
 

Xzax Kasrani

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XZAX IS TIRED OF TEH RANDOM SCRUBS THAT SPAM IN THIS THREAD.


Guys Melee players won this battle ATM. Unless someone discovers something, all you people need to do is accept that Melee > Brawl in a competitive standard.

Brawl: Hit, Hit, Air Dodge, Air Dodge, Shiled Grab. 14% gimp. Thats how Brawl on a steady basis is.

Melee: COMBO, COMBO, A LITTLE MOAR COMBOOOOO, SPIKE. Thats how a lot of good Melee players get K.O's.

And P.S Don't think im a melee hippie like a lot of people think of Scar and Cactuar as just Melee Lovers. There not out to get Brawlers, they just want to show you how Melee is a lot more competitive than Brawl.
 

Endless Nightmares

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And what have we accomplished? Okay, Melee's more competitive. And? What battle did we win?

All we've done is argue. 3463 posts of arguing that hasn't affected Brawl in the least :ohwell:

Was there like a point to this thread? I feel like we're in the same place that we started.

Unless it was just created for the sake of arguing.
 

Xzax Kasrani

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meh there was a point but people aka(SCRUBS) ruined it.
I never said anything about accomplishing, this thread was turned out to be way different then it was meant to be, so i hate this thread. lets just stop unless people talk about something worth talking about
 

MajinSweet

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XZAX IS TIRED OF TEH RANDOM SCRUBS THAT SPAM IN THIS THREAD.


Guys Melee players won this battle ATM. Unless someone discovers something, all you people need to do is accept that Melee > Brawl in a competitive standard.

Brawl: Hit, Hit, Air Dodge, Air Dodge, Shiled Grab. 14% gimp. Thats how Brawl on a steady basis is.

Melee: COMBO, COMBO, A LITTLE MOAR COMBOOOOO, SPIKE. Thats how a lot of good Melee players get K.O's.

And P.S Don't think im a melee hippie like a lot of people think of Scar and Cactuar as just Melee Lovers. There not out to get Brawlers, they just want to show you how Melee is a lot more competitive than Brawl.
I would like to reassert that the comparison is quite clearly unfair. Melee has already had time for almost its entire Meta-game to develop while Brawl is still an infant. Maybe Brawl won't develop into something as good as Melee. But, why should we try and shoot anyone down that wants to give Brawl a shot? How is that going to help anyone in the Smash community? As 56k said, whats really the point of stating the obvious? Of course Melee is a more competitive game (Even though thats somewhat objective) right now. When Melee first came out, it was pretty bad too. I don't see why we should expect Brawl to grow faster. And before anyone jumps on me and uses the "Well we know what to look for now" and "Since we have more Smash knowledge the Brawl metagame should be easy to see." I would just like to chime in that the vast majority of new techniques and tricks have been found by new people. Not the old pros that "know what to look for." The only thing I can recall that was found by pros for sure was Shell Shifting. So can we just let Brawlers play without trying to remind them that "Well...Melee's better!" If you don't like Brawl, and think its a bad game competitively, Melee is still there. And I'm sure there are like minded people more than willing to play with you.
 

Zankoku

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I don't see why we should expect Brawl to grow faster. And before anyone jumps on me and uses the "Well we know what to look for now" and "Since we have more Smash knowledge the Brawl metagame should be easy to see."
Those arguments are irrelevant. The relevant arguments are:
There's way more of us playing the game
There's a central message board (Smashboards) being used to share the information
 

MajinSweet

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Those arguments are irrelevant. The relevant arguments are:
There's way more of us playing the game
There's a central message board (Smashboards) being used to share the information
So because there are more people now, months are comparable to 7 years?
 

mzink*

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no, actually fun has everything to do with it. the competing part IS the fun part. well, part of it anyway. brawl isn't fun because it lacks substance
Ah just to add, I wasn't saying that fun had nothing to do with it, I was responding to his argument that he didnt want the mental stress that melee tended to cause because practice was required. I was trying to say that practice is important because people compete to be rewarded for the work they put in, so they are willing to put the time in to master their skills.
 

Dylan_Tnga

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I was much a part of that lil incident. We even made a whole forum out of spite. It was raw. I stood up for tnga cuz he knows whats up on the internet. Mad respect for Tnga.
My legacy lives on! and to all those who doubted me about melee vs brawl and how they were making brawl a watered down nublet version of smash, told ya so!


I would like to reassert that the comparison is quite clearly unfair. Melee has already had time for almost its entire Meta-game to develop while Brawl is still an infant. Maybe Brawl won't develop into something as good as Melee. But, why should we try and shoot anyone down that wants to give Brawl a shot? How is that going to help anyone in the Smash community? As 56k said, whats really the point of stating the obvious? Of course Melee is a more competitive game (Even though thats somewhat objective) right now. When Melee first came out, it was pretty bad too. I don't see why we should expect Brawl to grow faster. And before anyone jumps on me and uses the "Well we know what to look for now" and "Since we have more Smash knowledge the Brawl metagame should be easy to see." I would just like to chime in that the vast majority of new techniques and tricks have been found by new people. Not the old pros that "know what to look for." The only thing I can recall that was found by pros for sure was Shell Shifting. So can we just let Brawlers play without trying to remind them that "Well...Melee's better!" If you don't like Brawl, and think its a bad game competitively, Melee is still there. And I'm sure there are like minded people more than willing to play with you.
Very, very good post. Its true that if you LOOK for something in a game you'll rarely find it, but say 3-4 years from now a lot of decent techniques will most likely be discovered in brawl by accident or by sheer repittition.
 

Zankoku

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So because there are more people now, months are comparable to 7 years?
If you had one person testing Brawl versus ten people testing Brawl, which would be the most likely to first find something unexpected? And, how quickly? Well, I'm not exactly sure how far one person would get in a game like Brawl, so I believe the answer is quite clear.

Unless, of course, you're telling me that a job being done by five times as many people can simply be done by one person working five times as hard.
 

Cactuar

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I would like to reassert that the comparison is quite clearly unfair. Melee has already had time for almost its entire Meta-game to develop while Brawl is still an infant. Maybe Brawl won't develop into something as good as Melee. But, why should we try and shoot anyone down that wants to give Brawl a shot? How is that going to help anyone in the Smash community? As 56k said, whats really the point of stating the obvious? Of course Melee is a more competitive game (Even though thats somewhat objective) right now. When Melee first came out, it was pretty bad too. I don't see why we should expect Brawl to grow faster. And before anyone jumps on me and uses the "Well we know what to look for now" and "Since we have more Smash knowledge the Brawl metagame should be easy to see." I would just like to chime in that the vast majority of new techniques and tricks have been found by new people. Not the old pros that "know what to look for." The only thing I can recall that was found by pros for sure was Shell Shifting. So can we just let Brawlers play without trying to remind them that "Well...Melee's better!" If you don't like Brawl, and think its a bad game competitively, Melee is still there. And I'm sure there are like minded people more than willing to play with you.
The argument from the beginning hasn't been about which game is currently more competitive. The entire purpose of the thread was to look into the competitive viability of each game and in that process we looked at the every stage of melee's development, as well as the pros and cons of each game's mechanics and overall play style. All of this is an effort to decide whether we should, as a community, be backing Brawl on a competitive ground.

The biggest issue I have is that the game is not exciting. It is slow, floaty, and lacks in anything impressive. Individual moves may "look" cool, but graphics are skin deep. The ability to link one thing into another, given a variety of factors such as knowledge of knockback and hitstun, keeping close to frame perfect on movement out of your own moves and into the next, and adaptation to opponent DI are examples of why Melee is exciting to watch. It is impressive to observe a player that can execute all of this consistently. These factors exists in Brawl, but have been gimped horribly by the new game mechanics, and even years down the line when people can combo consistently, it isn't going to be nearly as fun to watch because of the slow pace of the game.

This brings me to an important point. Brawl is not fun to watch. Spectators get bored. Melee has it's own share of boring things, such as chaingrabs and shine infinites (hard to do anyway), but in Brawl, in just a few months, we have already discovered more of these kinds of techniques than Melee ever had. Brawl is an exercise in poorly designed game mechanics and programming what-not-to-do's. One of the biggest reasons Fox's shine was considered one of the best moves in Melee was because it had set knockback which could lead into other moves, giving Fox an amazing combo starter. Brawl has GRABS with set knockback in addition to a variety of normal moves. There is nothing impressive about watching someone CG when their grab always pushes a character the same way. This comes down to pure muscle memory. There is no reaction to DI and nothing to predict. It is boring from start to finish.

Brawl has inferior mechanics to Melee. This is not something that will be changed given more time to adapt the meta-game. You can argue it all you like and say that you have more fun in Brawl, but odds are, you were never at the high level metagame of Melee, and you aren't at the high level metagame of Brawl.

I have never used the concept of advanced techniques being necessary in a game because I don't believe that to be true. They will be found regardless. Advanced techniques are just the easiest way to spot a player that actively participates in the community in that, if you know something exists and you want to stay a competitive player, you will learn to do them. It's that simple. I have seen players that spent a significant amount of time complaining about wavedashing and l-cancelling in Melee flaunt their newfound brawl ATs. Newsflash: It's the same thing. You were just butthurt about not being able to keep up in Melee. Odds are, you are going to fall behind in Brawl too.

Please, someone come complain because anything I am saying is just my "opinion". I would like to point out once again that there is a difference between opinion and expert opinion, and I have already demonstrated many times over my knowledge of both games.
 

shrinkray21

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The argument from the beginning hasn't been about which game is currently more competitive. The entire purpose of the thread was to look into the competitive viability of each game and in that process we looked at the every stage of melee's development, as well as the pros and cons of each game's mechanics and overall play style. All of this is an effort to decide whether we should, as a community, be backing Brawl on a competitive ground.

The biggest issue I have is that the game is not exciting. It is slow, floaty, and lacks in anything impressive. Individual moves may "look" cool, but graphics are skin deep. The ability to link one thing into another, given a variety of factors such as knowledge of knockback and hitstun, keeping close to frame perfect on movement out of your own moves and into the next, and adaptation to opponent DI are examples of why Melee is exciting to watch. It is impressive to observe a player that can execute all of this consistently. These factors exists in Brawl, but have been gimped horribly by the new game mechanics, and even years down the line when people can combo consistently, it isn't going to be nearly as fun to watch because of the slow pace of the game.

This brings me to an important point. Brawl is not fun to watch. Spectators get bored. Melee has it's own share of boring things, such as chaingrabs and shine infinites (hard to do anyway), but in Brawl, in just a few months, we have already discovered more of these kinds of techniques than Melee ever had. Brawl is an exercise in poorly designed game mechanics and programming what-not-to-do's. One of the biggest reasons Fox's shine was considered one of the best moves in Melee was because it had set knockback which could lead into other moves, giving Fox an amazing combo starter. Brawl has GRABS with set knockback in addition to a variety of normal moves. There is nothing impressive about watching someone CG when their grab always pushes a character the same way. This comes down to pure muscle memory. There is no reaction to DI and nothing to predict. It is boring from start to finish.

Brawl has inferior mechanics to Melee. This is not something that will be changed given more time to adapt the meta-game. You can argue it all you like and say that you have more fun in Brawl, but odds are, you were never at the high level metagame of Melee, and you aren't at the high level metagame of Brawl.

I have never used the concept of advanced techniques being necessary in a game because I don't believe that to be true. They will be found regardless. Advanced techniques are just the easiest way to spot a player that actively participates in the community in that, if you know something exists and you want to stay a competitive player, you will learn to do them. It's that simple. I have seen players that spent a significant amount of time complaining about wavedashing and l-cancelling in Melee flaunt their newfound brawl ATs. Newsflash: It's the same thing. You were just butthurt about not being able to keep up in Melee. Odds are, you are going to fall behind in Brawl too.

Please, someone come complain because anything I am saying is just my "opinion". I would like to point out once again that there is a difference between opinion and expert opinion, and I have already demonstrated many times over my knowledge of both games.
and I agree with you, but the question STILL IS...what end does this achieve...what point does this prove...what change does this create?
 

LOL_Master

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.....EXPERT opinion, experific! It's tough for people to admit that you are right cactuar, the bottom line is that a lot of people want to be recognize as 'good' in video games and doesn't like the fact that they are complete scrubs, so they continue to hide behind this bs reality they made up that brawl has more 'mindgames' or other stupid shirts (yeah that's right), at the high level play of melee, it's about outsmarting the other player, i wouldn't be surprised that those who don't play at that level when watching a vid of m2k vs pc, they don't even understand the purpose behind a lot of what is happening, im gonna go take a hot bath now.
 

Cactuar

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and I agree with you, but the question STILL IS...what end does this achieve...what point does this prove...what change does this create?
The only point we have ever tried to prove is that Melee is more viable as a competitive game. Change was never a factor. We have no problem with people playing Brawl on whatever level of play they wish. There was an abundance of threads prior to this one comparing the two games, so we chose to highlight this issue in one intelligent thread and reduce the number of flame prone threads. I think that purpose has been accomplished. If people still wish to have a debate with me about it, I don't mind being here to dominate them. :laugh:
 

Qlink

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Look behind you...
Well this is what i think. Since Brawl has only been out 2-3 months total. And melee...About 7 years...
Now compare the 2. Melee, In my choice is more compettive for some odd reason, Brawl is not so far behind melee. It will catch up as you know. Give it 1-10 months or acople years and itll be more compettive then melee. Also, It may be because of more characters? More stages? Or just something that makes it less compettive. And ALSO!!!

Brawl and melee are completly diferrent games. (not to much but you get the idea)
As SSB with melee, Melee is an enhanced version of SSB as with Brawl is a enhanced version of melee(You can say it is some. Or something) Well thats sorta my opion of the smash series.

It may be something but there might be 100's of reasons why melee is more compettive, Or their may only be 1 reason. We Just have to find what makes melee more comppetive. I think its just because its been 7 years since melee has been out. And we just arent fully converted to brawl from melee(Dunno why i said that) But yea. It may because we played melee alot more.(Thats for some) Or something we dont know.
 
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