Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Pink Reaper]

combos arent AS unexistant as we originally though, though they certainly arent what they are in melee

mk has TONS of combos, i 2nd kirby and he has guaranteed 0-60's on a lot of chars and at least 2 hit combos on almost everyone, if not everyone, lots of chars can combo utilts or chain bairs or uairs, ganon has dair combos, pikmin and icies still have cg/combos, lots of chars have moves that if spaced correctly/a correct % make ppl trip, which is sort of a combo since you can immediately follow up... mario/luigi have legit combos, so yeah, i duno. its certainly not as thorough as melee, but there are some combos ^_^

The problem with alot of those combo's(Especially the Kirby ones) is that they stop working if you don't start at an exact percent. Once your opponent hits about 40% there's not alot of characters who can really combo.

 

[Scar]

The problem with alot of those combo's(Especially the Kirby ones) is that they stop working if you don't start at an exact percent. Once your opponent hits about 40% there's not alot of characters who can really combo.

Again I say that creativity is something that definitely should be a factor in who wins matches. Melee required a certain amount of creativity and smarts to be good with certain characters in certain situations, where it seems that Brawl does not.

If you stray from the plan, whether the plan be a guaranteed combo at a guaranteed percent or whatever it may be, you end up getting punished. If you stick to the plan and stay patient and do what you know your character can do, then you'll do well.

I don't know if I'm explaining the difference well or not, but in Melee combos are not guaranteed unless you correctly read DI and react with the correct move. Whether it's the difference between nair or uair or whatever, you still need to see what the other person did and react, and in some situations there's no time to react so you just have to use mindgames and predict.

Brawl seems to be all prediction and no creativity.

 

[Plairnkk]

kirby still has drill-->forced trip-->dsmash to kill XD
but you're right, most combos are only lower %.

 

[Scar]

Some more food for thought, I found this on YouTube though so it's probably wrong. YouTube people are idiots.

Most advanced techniques in Street Fighter 3: Third Strike were found very soon after release because there were thousands and thousands of Super Turbo players that were looking day and night for them. Sounds a lot like what Melee players are doing with Brawl, yet almost nothing has been found. And don't even think of saying Brawl's deeper than Third Strike.

I was actually also arguing that most ATs will be found like... pretty soon. So I buy this. I just didn't know that 3S had the same phenomenon.

 

[RDK]

The difference between 3rd Strike and Brawl is that Brawl is a competitive abomination.

 

[LOL_Master]

the game is still slow, and it is still identical to watching paint dry

 

[RDK]

Brawl--competitive grass-watching.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

the game is still slow, and it is still identical to watching paint dry

I can guarantee you it's much faster than that.

 

[LOL_Master]

i can also guarantee you my nutssss,,,

i was watching brawl being played, i went and pooped in a bathroom, i came back, it's still being played, only the stocks are a little less

i was watching paint dry, i went and played melee for a few rounds, i came back, it's still being dried, only parts of it have dried

 

[Endless Nightmares]

If I didn't play Wario I'd probably agree with all of you lol

Wario is the opposite of what everyone hates about Brawl

 

[chansen]

i can also guarantee you my nutssss,,,

i was watching brawl being played, i went and pooped in a bathroom, i came back, it's still being played, only the stocks are a little less

i was watching paint dry, i went and played melee for a few rounds, i came back, it's still being dried, only parts of it have dried

I lawled pretty good.
Granted I'm blazed out of my gourd.


and 56k is right, wario is like the brawl anti-christ.

 

[thumbswayup]

If I didn't play Wario I'd probably agree with all of you lol

Wario is the opposite of what everyone hates about Brawl

Really? Cause he's the second main reason I hate Brawl.

 

[chansen]

Really? Cause he's the second main reason I hate Brawl.

He's the second reason the game is somewhat valid in my book.
Following Lucas
Followed by D3

 

[RDK]

Main reasons I hate Brawl:

No hitstun....
Slow as fvcked fvck....
Snake......

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I don't like brawl because they nerfed the fun.

 

[Samochan]

I don't like brawl because they nerfed the fun.

They also nerfed my peach and gave her different voice actor. ._. It was fun hearing peach go "yahuu" and stuff when I use c-stick down.

 

[Aesir]

I only like brawl because of the lucario character.

Other then that, brawl is unfun most of the time.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

You guys need to wait a while, not all the ATs have been found.

Brawl is a completely different game, it requires different Tactics than Melee.

Brawl is much more defensive. In Melee KO's were gotten quickly, but now it Brawl every has fairly good recovery, requiring you to do more damage to your opponent bbefore you can earn a KO.

For all the Melee lovers that hate Brawl. I don't think its really fair to compare them, they are different games, therefore I don't think you should expect them to be identical.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

For all the Melee lovers that hate Brawl. I don't think its really fair to compare them, they are different games, therefore I don't think you should expect them to be identical.

We don't expect Brawl to be identical in every regard.

We're just addressing its glaring faults. BIG difference.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Unusual_Rex]

What are some major faults?

 

[Hydde]

You guys need to wait a while, not all the ATs have been found.

Brawl is a completely different game, it requires different Tactics than Melee.

Brawl is much more defensive. In Melee KO's were gotten quickly, but now it Brawl every has fairly good recovery, requiring you to do more damage to your opponent bbefore you can earn a KO.

For all the Melee lovers that hate Brawl. I don't think its really fair to compare them, they are different games, therefore I don't think you should expect them to be identical.

yeah, thats understandable..... the problem is.... that Melee..... putting it in short words, Is more entertaining than Brawl.

Melee has more precise controls, is faster, is harder to master and demands quick reflexes and quick thinking.
Brawl is too slow paced compare to melee,,, but that is not the main concern. What really bothers me is that brawl forces everyone to play with the brawl rules... in comparison to melee, where u could break the preset rules and physics with glitches and ATs. I know, that was not meant to be that way, but in the end the game turned out to be just fun, entertaining and addictive.

Brawl is ok, but compared to Melee, it just doesnt deliver the same level of adrenaline, the same level of seriousness and the same level of fun.

I like brawl (i just love Lucas and Poke trainer), but sincerely i dont feel as serious when playing it that when i played against someone very skilled in melee.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

What are some major faults?

>.>; I'm assuming that you have eyes in which to read.

I'll tell you my biggest issue with Brawl: Lack of hitstun.

If you want every other issue under the sun, please go back through the thread and read some of the other users' arguments.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Benjamin Linus]

i like how this thread is now a **** fest. i can understand the reason why scar doesnt even post in here anymore. theres no opposition. no one from the brawl side has come with a valid arguement.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

@Hydde

Well, I can see how people may like the speed, and adrenaline rush, but it is truly the opinion of the play which is better. Its not 'scientific fact" that Melee is better than Brawl.

@Smooth Criminal

I'm not going to read through 250+ pages just to find some arguements, I just started posting in this thread today...

All in all I don't think you can compare one to another. It is in the eye of the beholder which is better. You can force someone who like Melee to like Brawl, and you can't force someone who likes Brawl to like Melee.

Personally I like both the same. There both different play styles, and both can be enjoyed.

 

[chansen]

Way to put effort into your side of the argument.

We aren't forcing anyone to like anything. I like to tell people what's wrong with the game they like.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

It's only wrong in your eyes, others may like it others may hate it. It's not a moral issue which is right, its a matter of opinion.

I'm not saying I like one over another it's like comparing. Neo Geo Battle Coliseum, to Marvel Vs. Capcom, there two totally different games, one is not better than the other. Some may only like having 2 kick, while others may like having 3.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@Smooth Criminal

I'm not going to read through 250+ pages just to find some arguements, I just started posting in this thread today...

All in all I don't think you can compare one to another. It is in the eye of the beholder which is better. You can force someone who like Melee to like Brawl, and you can't force someone who likes Brawl to like Melee.

Personally I like both the same. There both different play styles, and both can be enjoyed.

You act like we're missionaries seeking to convert people. We're not. We're just discussing our opinions. Whenever someone posts a dissenting opinion that contrasts with our own, we respond in kind and give them our insight and how we feel about Brawl. If they're blatantly being *******s, well, we're going to "blatantly be *******s" right back (to a degree). We have every right to compare and contrast the two games; this is an internet forum, after all.

It's OK if you like Brawl. If I still had my Wii and my own copy (just sold everything Wii related yesterday), I'd probably pop it in and play it right now just for kicks. I think it was worth my money, but for an entirely different set of reasons that I don't feel like divulging at the moment. I just don't feel as if it holds any water, competitively-speaking.

Oh, and Rex? It's really not that hard to skim back through at least four pages worth of content to bring yourself up to date in a large thread like this (considering its circular nature). There were some pretty compelling arguments laid out by Scar, Ankoku, RDK, and myself.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Well, true you can compare them, but as I said they are different, so you won't get an accurate comparison.

What arguments? If your only comparing them what is there to argue about? Again it only boils down to your opinion.

 

[Hydde]

yeh they are not the same, but what can really be compared is the fun factor of both games, and there is where melee bests brawl. At least i think is that what most of us think. Brawl is not as addictive.

 

[Banks]

wait, so what is wrong with brawl again?

i thought it was just the same as melee

 

[Unusual_Rex]

yeh they are not the same, but what can really be compared is the fun factor of both games, and there is where melee bests brawl. At least i think is that what most of us think. Brawl is not as addictive.

But again thats opinion, there will always be people who disagree.

I personally enjoy both equal.

 

[Clai]

i like how this thread is now a **** fest. i can understand the reason why scar doesnt even post in here anymore. theres no opposition. no one from the brawl side has come with a valid arguement.

I suppose you have a filter that screens out every time an intelligent person argues for Brawl. Go back a few pages and read SamuraiPanda's discussions, then come back and tell him that he does not have a valid argument.

-Marth and Sheik represent everything Melee has done right (Great combo ability. great edgeguard possibilities, proven to be unstoppable in the right, and smart hands).
-Fox and Falco represent everything Melee has done wrong (Shine, Shine, Shine, laser, laser, Shine combo, edgeguard shine, add pillaring for Falco. Also unstoppable in the right hands).

-Scar and Mew2King represent everything Melee does right (Both brilliant players and filled with overall awesomeness).
-Silent Wolf represents everything Melee does wrong (Turning the game into Advanced Technique Flinger-Blast city. If you don't know who he is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQsgQyO1zg&feature=related)

-Olimar, Lucario and Toon Link represent everything Brawl has done right (Yes they have projectiles and can camp, but are also capable of very nice offensive abilities. These characters will go very far in Brawl).
-Wolf, Dedede, and giving Snake the most ridiculous hitboxes known to man represents everything Brawl has done wrong (Wolf is practically a blaster and a messed-up foward smash, Apparently Dedede is all about chaingrabbing and Waddle Dee tossing, and Snake is like Ness with the Yo-yo glitch in Melee).

Another point for lack of hitstun: playing in the SSE with Ganondorf against Luigi, I grabbed Luigi with the Up+B dive trying to recover, the sparks fly, Ganon completes the move and he get hit with Luigi's sex kick (I don't even see Ganon come up like he does after you land the move, I just see me getting hit by the sex kick). The dominant thought going into my mind was, "what?" I guess I should just avoid his Up+B all together, because you get hit instantly after using the move.

I like Kirby.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

They also nerfed my peach and gave her different voice actor. ._. It was fun hearing peach go "yahuu" and stuff when I use c-stick down.

Yeah I was mad about that too!

I loved beating people with her, then she'd say "Ohhhh, did I win????"

That annoyed the HELL out of people

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Hahaha I love cocky characters , Pit, Falco, and Sonic get that award.

 

[Hydde]

yeah, the voice change of peach was a low blow.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Fox and Falco are stoppable in the right hands too, Clai.

How can you say they're more broken than Marth, who's also just as ridiculous?

It was fun that there were several absurd characters (more in the right hands), because it'd wind up being a fight between an absurdly fast and sick Fox vs an absurdly fast and sick Falco, which got ridiculous. I also am a fan of ridiculous techskill, so I don't see how that's something Melee did wrong either. I like the infinite ceiling. I see how that could be viewed as a flaw, but the ability to improve no matter how good you are is good for a game's longevity. Plus, you can just play with mid-low tier characters (which I did a lot so I wouldn't simply crush my friends).

Also, the list of things Brawl did right is trumped by the overall physics flaws... which you did address. Even without the list of things Brawl did wrong, it'd still be crap, even if Melee didn't exist for comparison. The real issue is the lack of effort, attention to detail, and balancing on Nintendo's part.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

You guys need to wait a while, not all the ATs have been found.

Brawl is a completely different game, it requires different Tactics than Melee.

Brawl is much more defensive. In Melee KO's were gotten quickly, but now it Brawl every has fairly good recovery, requiring you to do more damage to your opponent bbefore you can earn a KO.

For all the Melee lovers that hate Brawl. I don't think its really fair to compare them, they are different games, therefore I don't think you should expect them to be identical.

is it me.... or did he BLATANTLY disregard everything said on the OP about who Scar thinks is stupid?

I understand not wanting to sift through 250+ pages, but at least read the freakin' OP for christ's sake. And if you wanna be a doll, try and read some of the highlighted posts from the OP for awesomeness points.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Really? Cause he's the second main reason I hate Brawl.

Why? lol

Wario has no range and no projectile, he can not camp at all. Wario is mostly agressive gameplay. Wario actually attacks first, and can even benefit from attacking someone's shield.

Wario can hit his opponent with an attack before the hitstun from the previous attack ends! =O What does this mean? He can actually combo.

Wario can edgeguard AND be edgeguarded.

Wario is unique and can be played in a wide variety of styles. So it's not the same boring thing each match (unless it's a dair spammer )

Wario matches usually have these exciting "OH! moments" that people say Brawl lacks. And they don't all come from the waft lol

 

[Unusual_Rex]

is it me.... or did he BLATANTLY disregard everything said on the OP about who Scar thinks is stupid?

I understand not wanting to sift through 250+ pages, but at least read the freakin' OP for christ's sake. And if you wanna be a doll, try and read some of the highlighted posts from the OP for awesomeness points.

Nevermind. I guess I didn't read the whole thing.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

I did. What did I disregard?

everything... and im not exxagerating... you literally disregarded everything

Points Already Addressed

Upcoming is a list of other statements that translate into "Leave Brawl alone." They have been covered time and time again, but for some reason a Brawl supporter will bring these things up randomly in debates.

This is the argument and appropriate counter argument. If anyone wants to address any of these and further the discussion, please feel free to. At this point, these discussions seem to have reached a clear and obvious end.

1) It's not Melee 2.0, you can't compare the two games
This is silly. We are debating "which game is more competitive," so we must compare the two games. Arguing that this is irrelevant doesn't make any sense, since it's clearly important to competitive Melee players. Our feelings are important, too.

This may be a valid argument elsewhere, but IT IS NOT VALID IN THE CONTEXT OF MELEE VS BRAWL.

2) Brawl has only been out for a short amount of time, how long did it take to find Melee ATs
This would be relevant if the two games experienced similar launches. They didn't. Melee had a few SSB64 players who knew about z-cancelling, and there was no central intelligence like SmashBoards to really unite the community and combine everyone's knowledge.

Now, at Brawl's launch, there are thousands of players working day and night to find something - ANYTHING to abuse. There were even players doing this in early February, immediately after the game was released in Japan. So far, nothing of note has advanced the metagame to anything to be considered remarkable.