Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[thumbswayup]

lol I don't hate the character himself, I just hate playing against one. It's one of diddy's worst matchups imo. Wario doesn't die, his bike makes his recovery almost impossible to edgeguard with diddy kong. You need to get him in the 180 percent range before your smashes can safely finish him off.

Plus, he eats my bannanas

 

[Unusual_Rex]

everything... and im not exxagerating... you literally disregarded everything

I read some of it. Yeah I guess Melee is more competitive. But then again, Brawl hasn't developed much.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I read some of it. Yeah I guess Melee is more competitive. But then again, Brawl hasn't developed much.

because...............

...

...

...

(you fill in the blank)

 

[Unusual_Rex]

because...............

...

...

...

(you fill in the blank)

Because what? What are you talking about?

Because it's new?

 

[Zankoku]

Because what? What are you talking about?

Because it's new?

From OP:
2) ]Brawl has only been out for a short amount of time, how long did it take to find Melee ATs
This would be relevant if the two games experienced similar launches. They didn't. Melee had a few SSB64 players who knew about z-cancelling, and there was no central intelligence like SmashBoards to really unite the community and combine everyone's knowledge.

Now, at Brawl's launch, there are thousands of players working day and night to find something - ANYTHING to abuse. There were even players doing this in early February, immediately after the game was released in Japan. So far, nothing of note has advanced the metagame to anything to be considered remarkable.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

lol I don't hate the character himself, I just hate playing against one. It's one of diddy's worst matchups imo. Wario doesn't die, his bike makes his recovery almost impossible to edgeguard with diddy kong. You need to get him in the 180 percent range before your smashes can safely finish him off.

Plus, he eats my bannanas

lol I love playing against Diddy Kongs =]

if I don't eat the bananas I can glide throw them for extra style points. lol

 

[LOL_Master]

well now what? he's read the whole thing but, his mindset is still unchanged, the fact of the matter is, if brawl was melee v2.0, v2.0s are usually tweaked, better upgraded versions, so then melee v2.0 or brawl, would be BETTER than melee, and i think that's we should've hoped for, instead of just saying, booboo it's not supposed to be melee 2.0, it's brawl which sucks donkey dik, and we're glad that it's like that! suck my nuts

entirely intended towards idiots that think brawl is a better game than melee.

 

[Demon Kirby]

LOL_Master reminded me why I don't visit SWF much anymore.

 

[LOL_Master]

no, im gonna speak my mind, just as scrubs speak theirs, deal with it, do i really give a crap? not really, which is why i limit my posts

 

[NoVaLombardia]

I am honestly frustrated when I see people so intensely focused on the options that were lost, that they fail to see the options gained.

You forgot to list a minor amount of options that were gained (lets say 2 or 3 and add a comma et cetera afterwards).

@Unusual_Rex, Melee is not new. You said you are starting to think Melee is more competitive, and you were forced into stating why. You said "Because its new?"

 

[chansen]

Yeah, melee is the new hottness.

/derr

 

[Pink Reaper]

I suppose you have a filter that screens out every time an intelligent person argues for Brawl. Go back a few pages and read SamuraiPanda's discussions, then come back and tell him that he does not have a valid argument.

-Marth and Sheik represent everything Melee has done right (Great combo ability. great edgeguard possibilities, proven to be unstoppable in the right, and smart hands).
-Fox and Falco represent everything Melee has done wrong (Shine, Shine, Shine, laser, laser, Shine combo, edgeguard shine, add pillaring for Falco. Also unstoppable in the right hands).

This quote has been addressed so many times it makes me angry and hateful. Neither Fox nor Falco are unstoppable in anyones hands ever. M2K is easily the best player in the world right now and even HE was stoppable(and im not just talking about Mango, other people have beaten him too you know) And what about Snake in Brawl?(TILT TILT TILT TILT TILT TILT TILT TILT TILT, AAA, MORTAR SLIDE, REPEAT!!!!!)

-Scar and Mew2King represent everything Melee does right (Both brilliant players and filled with overall awesomeness).
-Silent Wolf represents everything Melee does wrong (Turning the game into Advanced Technique Flinger-Blast city. If you don't know who he is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQsgQyO1zg&feature=related)

Don't hate on Silent Wolf because he's crazy technical. What does that really equate to huh? Silent Wolf is easily the most technical player in the world but has he ever won a major tournament? No, and do you know why? Because it takes more than technical skill to be good at Melee and even though certain players are retardedly more technical than others (Silent Wolf, Phanna) they will never be the top players unless they have equal levels creativity(Creativity is easily the most important thing in Melee)

-Olimar, Lucario and Toon Link represent everything Brawl has done right (Yes they have projectiles and can camp, but are also capable of very nice offensive abilities. These characters will go very far in Brawl).
-Wolf, Dedede, and giving Snake the most ridiculous hitboxes known to man represents everything Brawl has done wrong (Wolf is practically a blaster and a messed-up foward smash, Apparently Dedede is all about chaingrabbing and Waddle Dee tossing, and Snake is like Ness with the Yo-yo glitch in Melee).

>.O OAWOIDASFJBOSHOBEROAWFOA GOD I HATE SNAKE AND HIS ******** HITBOXES!!!! But yeah there are some broken *** characters in Brawl and its sooooo many more levels of gay than what I've seen(and experienced) in melee.

Another point for lack of hitstun: playing in the SSE with Ganondorf against Luigi, I grabbed Luigi with the Up+B dive trying to recover, the sparks fly, Ganon completes the move and he get hit with Luigi's sex kick (I don't even see Ganon come up like he does after you land the move, I just see me getting hit by the sex kick). The dominant thought going into my mind was, "what?" I guess I should just avoid his Up+B all together, because you get hit instantly after using the move.

Wow.....seriously, out of the Up B? Wow, and here I thought there was just little hitstun, I didn't realize there was BLOODY NONE. That is really ********, that makes me wonder if there's like a way to IMMEDIATELY get out of any and all hitstun. That would make things go from bad to worse.

I like Kirby.

I like MELEE KIRBY :D Brawl kirby makes me sad because of the lack of reaper combo's ;_;

 

[Red.Tide]

Although Melee is possibly more competitive than Brawl, it is not any deeper. I would say that Brawl leans away from people with technical skill (with some exceptions) to people who are able to think quickly.

The removal of wavedashing is a negative, but I would say the removal of l-cancelling is positive. Shffl'ing aerials with the higher gravity of Melee was not as punishable as shff'ing is now, so people have to be more careful (Imagine Snake with l-cancelling...)

Also, there is less comboing ability in Melee. This is good. A Falco player fighting Marth would have had to be careful in Melee, because if the Marth had a little knowledge, a little practice, and good reflexes, he could grab the Falco and do about 50 damage with upthrows. Stringing takes skill, but many true combos require little more than timed button presses. What about Fox's waveshine? Technically insanely hard to pull off, but requiring little thought. Now that there are fewer combos, people who can string moves, reacting to what their opponents are doing, and deciding the best course of action, are doing well.

Wavedashing eliminated one option of movement, but there are some substitutes. Air dodging is an additional option in the air, as is gliding for some characters.

Random tripping is a bad thing, I will admit. However, move-induced tripping isn't so bad; it adds an additional punishment to people that judge timing wrong, trying to move away or landing at the wrong time.

Because of a lack of combos, approaches are even more important. In Melee, someone who might not be as good as another person might happen to win an approach, and then do tons of damage in a super combo, using their technical skill. In Brawl, the person who wins each approach does a little bit of damage. Over time, the more skillful person should rack up more damage.

Also because of less combos, there are fewer characters with HUGE advantages over other characters. Now, this hardly means that 'tires don exits', but I think that they will hopefully not be quite as important as Melee. There are still issues with character priority, edguarding other characters, and so on, but aside from Snake (lol), a variety of characters have been winning tournaments.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Although Melee is possibly more competitive than Brawl, it is not any deeper. I would say that Brawl leans away from people with technical skill (with some exceptions) to people who are able to think quickly.

The removal of wavedashing is a negative, but I would say the removal of l-cancelling is positive. Shffl'ing aerials with the higher gravity of Melee was not as punishable as shff'ing is now, so people have to be more careful (Imagine Snake with l-cancelling...)

Also, there is less comboing ability in Melee. This is good. A Falco player fighting Marth would have had to be careful in Melee, because if the Marth had a little knowledge, a little practice, and good reflexes, he could grab the Falco and do about 50 damage with upthrows. Stringing takes skill, but many true combos require little more than timed button presses. What about Fox's waveshine? Technically insanely hard to pull off, but requiring little thought. Now that there are fewer combos, people who can string moves, reacting to what their opponents are doing, and deciding the best course of action, are doing well.

Wavedashing eliminated one option of movement, but there are some substitutes. Air dodging is an additional option in the air, as is gliding for some characters.

Random tripping is a bad thing, I will admit. However, move-induced tripping isn't so bad; it adds an additional punishment to people that judge timing wrong, trying to move away or landing at the wrong time.

Because of a lack of combos, approaches are even more important. In Melee, someone who might not be as good as another person might happen to win an approach, and then do tons of damage in a super combo, using their technical skill. In Brawl, the person who wins each approach does a little bit of damage. Over time, the more skillful person should rack up more damage.

Also because of less combos, there are fewer characters with HUGE advantages over other characters. Now, this hardly means that 'tires don exits', but I think that they will hopefully not be quite as important as Melee. There are still issues with character priority, edguarding other characters, and so on, but aside from Snake (lol), a variety of characters have been winning tournaments.

Alright, I did Clai because he was at least intelligent about it, someone else is gonna have to do this one.

 

[Brookman]

Brawl is to melee as ham is to cheese.

 

[LOL_Master]

let me add on to what you said, the real reason why m2k got so good is because he constantly thought about strats throughout the day, like he came up with stuff and tried it, some probably failed, some worked, and he always told me just be smart, yeah it sounds like a weak advice, cause he didn't explain the how and what not, it really makes sense, just use your head, for instance, you have to know how to practice, and practice what. M2k knew what to practice but he mainly used his head, thinking about how the opponent would di in certain situations. Of course, no one likes the thought of another guy/girl beating them in a video game because he/she is just smarter. It's a tough one to swallow, but remember, this is still a video game, so even if one's smarter than you in this game, it shouldn't make a negative impact on you, in fact that's the exciting part

sorry im not used to this, i'll like space ma self

...in fact taht's the exciting part, why play this game if all it is is to just out tech the opponent, going off topic sort of, that's like im gonna play guitar hero a million hours and then beat my friend, then the real opponent is you, not your friend, once you've achieved the highest standard you can possibly achieve you won, i personally don't see any fun in that, for melee, using the technical skill you've acquired, you can expand your options and make smart decisions and trick your opponent

im hungry

 

[KoalaBear]

Posted by ShadowLink:

"BRawl is inferior to Melee competitive wise. It isn't that it can't be competitive but that the depth of the game is simply inferior to melee.
No hate involved.__________________"

SO TRUE...

 

[Demon Kirby]

but aside from Snake (lol), a variety of characters have been winning tournaments.

You basically just admitted that Brawl is broken and undid anything you said about balance.

gj.

Someone else do the rest. I just wanted to point this out.

 

[Pink Reaper]

HEY

In any given fighting game, the best way to play is to take as little damage as possible while dealing as much damage as possible to your opponent. In Brawl, the best way to do this is simply to run away and throw ****, abuse ******** priority/hitboxes or just play Meta Knight. You can say that the game will evolve, however you cant deny the fact that a) Camping is overly powerful and b) Excessive Offense is extremely weak. With the lack of combos in Brawl, the fastest/best way to ensure damage on your opponent while still staying safe is to NOT approach and simply camp. Im sure there will be people who deny this, but I want more than just a simple explanation. I want someone to tell me whats better than camping in Brawl? What can beat camping, what is the better strategy?

Still waiting.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Oh god I can't believe this crap is still going on.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

HEY



Still waiting.

Wario. Nuff said

 

[AlphaZealot]

Creativity is easily the most important thing in Melee

And in Brawl. Actually, just Smash in general.

In any given fighting game, the best way to play is to take as little damage as possible while dealing as much damage as possible to your opponent. In Brawl, the best way to do this is simply to run away and throw ****, abuse ******** priority/hitboxes or just play Meta Knight. You can say that the game will evolve, however you cant deny the fact that a) Camping is overly powerful and b) Excessive Offense is extremely weak. With the lack of combos in Brawl, the fastest/best way to ensure damage on your opponent while still staying safe is to NOT approach and simply camp. Im sure there will be people who deny this, but I want more than just a simple explanation. I want someone to tell me whats better than camping in Brawl? What can beat camping, what is the better strategy?

www.youtube.com/alphazealot

Just pick a video, camping loses in every one of then (not saying I win, just that camping wasn't the reason for a loss).

Of course, you could just watch other low-mid tier level character like Pikachu show how much offense can still **** in Brawl, here is a video of Pikachu beating one of the best campers in the game, Overswarm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7hIYYI9T8k

Go ahead and follow links to see Pikachu beating MK, as well.

Or, go ahead and watch videos of Futiles Wario, I guarentee not a single person in this thread thought Wario would be dominating California tournaments 2 months ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V_wrejhQWM
Futiles Wario versus DSF's Snake (ZOMG Snake top tier camping)

You can find videos of him breaking down ZOMG super campy MK.

Or, though I haven't seen any videos, I here Bum still ***** with DK.

Its funny, the more time that passes, the more and more camping is being revealed to not be a big deal, and more and more different strategies are being employed by tons of characters to counter such things, just as I had pointed out would happen in my other thread.

 

[Scar]

Ah come on AZ, it's just different kinds of camping. MK players still ****, and now Snake players enjoy space control unlike anything we've ever seen in Smash. This is crap, there is no creativity in Brawl, it's just things that work and things that don't.

In Melee we already know what works and what doesn't, but it's hard to actually make the things that work work.

In Brawl every single Falco can get snake up to 60% by doing the least technically-involved chaingrab in the world, followed by a semi-complicated but still unfairly easy dash attack>usmash. There is no creativity in that, you follow the plan and if you try to do other things it's just not the best option and it's very very very apparent. It requires no individual thought.

 

[AlphaZealot]

For every case you make for those video's being camping I can make the same case for how M2K plays marth, or how any high level player played any character in Melee, it was all about camping right in front of the opponent, just like in some of those videos. however, when you are so close, camping isn't the right term, its called good spacing.

Did you even watch the Pikachu video? Or Wario? WARIO beating the DSF's Snake, the same Snake that won 8 straight Cali tournaments in a row. Last I checked, Wario doesn't even have a projectile, seems like someone must know how to fight and break these supposedly unbreakable camping/defenses/perfect shields. Not to mention, Futile is getting this far by beating pretty much all these campers people rave about (won last few tournaments hes entered, I believe). Sure, if two players really want to camp against each other, it will happen, but this occurred in Melee too. If you don't like camping, there are already characters/strategies to get around it.

 

[D20]

WARIO beating the DSF's Snake, the same Snake that won 8 straight Cali tournaments in a row.

This concerns me, because...

Those who should win will win.

 

[Scar]

No, I didn't watch any of the videos and really don't want to, Melee vids are wayyy more exciting for me personally, and sometimes I can barely even watch them. And yeah good spacing is very important and yes I agree, camping isn't a huge problem in Brawl.

The huge problems are the resetting and the lack of consequences. Single hits, no combos, a lack of a punishment game! It's all terrible! No creativity required, punishment is based on what are the best options available and whether you can mindgame your opponent into messing up and getting your opening.

First hits in Melee are also about mindgames, but after you get a first hit sometimes you can do 80% if you're awesome and their DI is bad, and sometimes you only get a single hit if you can't combo well or the opponent has great DI. I mean everything is based on how good the players are. In Brawl it's about how good the characters are and if you've played the game for longer than 3 days.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You didn't even watch the videos? Your debate is entirely based on theory. You probably don't even know the potency of Pikachu's quick attack, which is considerably more useful than it was in Melee. Or Wario's chomp, hell, I don't know how Futile does it, but he is mad creative.

You aren't even willing to experiment or look at the other side, so of course all you see are the same points/theories that people have been touting for months despite things changing at a rapid pace.

 

[Scar]

I'm not talking about anything specific, I'm talking about the game mechanics, which honestly is more valuable than single matches. Anything can happen in a single match, Pakman beat my CF with Pichu the other week, and very similarly, in a single match anyone can beat a good camper.

Edit in response to your own, no, I don't know everything there is to know about Brawl, but there's a difference between innovation and creativity. No one knows everything there is to know about Brawl, and people are finding out more and more every day. The 0-60 cg Falco on Snake wasn't known before, and whoever came up with it was creative, sure. But everyone who has used it subsequently has not been creative.

In Melee CF's uair to knee combo works and was probably very creative when it first happened. But in the game there are still tons of ways to pull it off the require creativity because of opponent's DI and the fact that there actually is hitstun.

No hitstun takes all the creativity out of combos, we already know when people can't do anything about stuff and we just do it over and over, mindlessly.

No I don't claim to be an expert, but no you cannot say that I haven't given it a chance because I have and am still. At this point I'm still unimpressed, but no I haven't stopped playing it. Some things are just apparent.

SUMMARY: There is a difference between creative and innovative.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I think you need to do a little research, Futile is essentially the number 1 player in California, and he mainly uses Wario. Last I check, Wario can't camp. Watch his videos, and you'll see creativity. Its not 1 match, its consistency, its every match, and he isn't the only one.

And sometimes a single tactic is all you need, do you think the Ice Climbers relied on combos in Melee or on chain grabs? Bingo.

 

[Scar]

Ice Climbers are extermely annoying in Melee and I hate them. Wobbling makes the game stupid, and 0-death CGs that opponents cannot escape are very very very stupid. The only thing that makes it NOT gamebreaking (and I would argue that it is gamebreaking) is that in Melee you actually can go a match being smart and not getting grabbed. It's hard though.

Edit: about Wario not being able to camp, I've already said that camping isn't the big issue. It was a serious issue but that's mainly because we didn't define camping. The problem is still the same it's just a different name. Space control honestly is just "camping in your face," which is something very few people consider camping, but whatever, I don't care what you call it, it's overpowered.

At least it's hard to do in Melee, in Brawl there are certain moves that you can mindlessly spam and control space without worrying about punishment unless you do them blatantly into someone's shield.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Wario can combo, most characters can (I mean, maybe not Ike or Bowser), sure, not true combos, though, by your own admission, many combos in Melee were also not true combos. Its a lot harder to space well in Brawl than melee, remember, no wavedashing (ala the key to amazing spacing in Melee)? Your own points are working against you. And, I haven't run into anything that people can spam and mindlessly control space that I can't punish.

 

[Brookman]

close thread.

 

[Jkr4u]

Nice post but i don't think that melee players are as good in brawl.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Nice post but i don't think that melee players are as good in brawl.

Tell that to Cort, Azen, DSF, and many others.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Silent Wolf]

I can't even begin to count how many times I've seen this said in this thread:
"If technical skill was all that mattered, Silent Wolf would be the best"
Just thought it was funny =P
Judging from that, this thread is going in circles. Haven't read any of it, but I can safely say, Brawl sucks comparatively. Defend it all you want, it does. I really hope no one takes it as seriously as anyone took Melee, that would be sad.

Like I said, I didn't read anything in this thread other than posts that had my name. Brawl's gay all day.

 

[arrowhead]

Its a lot harder to space well in Brawl than melee, remember, no wavedashing (ala the key to amazing spacing in Melee)?

that's why character selection is all the more important

 

[AlphaZealot]

Which I've been saying all along.

 

[GofG]

AlphaZealot, right now you're the main driving force behind the pro-brawl argument, so I'd like to ask you:

What would have to be done to convince you that Brawl is a bad game, in terms of things that might possibly be demonstratable? A snake winning a tournament using nothing but ftilt? A luigi sex-kicking as soon as possible after being up-b'd by falcon and having it hit?

 

[D20]

Something like Cort losing to Azen because of a last match and last stock trip in the finals of *pound* 4 would convince nearly everyone that Brawl sucks.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Although Melee is possibly more competitive than Brawl, it is not any deeper. I would say that Brawl leans away from people with technical skill (with some exceptions) to people who are able to think quickly.

Isn't the deeper game, by nature, more competitive? And you're just flat out wrong about the quick thinking - techs = faster movement/lag cancelling = more options = more/faster thinking. Brawl just requires more patience.

The removal of wavedashing is a negative, but I would say the removal of l-cancelling is positive. Shffl'ing aerials with the higher gravity of Melee was not as punishable as shff'ing is now, so people have to be more careful (Imagine Snake with l-cancelling...)

At least you're right about the removal of wavedashing, but it's really not as critical as the removal of L-cancelling... The whole problem with Brawl is the lack of hitstun, the low gravity, and the lack of speed... Shffl'ing in Melee was all about high gravity, breakneck speed, and using hitstun to string hits together. Imagine COUNTERING Snake with shffl'ing. Shffl'ing was one of the best things Melee had, as it led to many options and variations.

Plus, snake's air moves aren't his strength anyways.

Also, there is less comboing ability in Melee.

You must mean in Brawl... right????

This is good. A Falco player fighting Marth would have had to be careful in Melee, because if the Marth had a little knowledge, a little practice, and good reflexes, he could grab the Falco and do about 50 damage with upthrows.

And a Marth had to be careful, because if the Falco had a little knowledge, a little practice, and good reflexes, he could stun the Marth with shffl'd lasers and pillaring and combo him to death...

Dude that's why melee rocked, the ability to string together tough combos like these, and the ability to fight your way out of such combos. I'll give you that you at least know your terminology, but how is combo'ing a bad thing?

Stringing takes skill, but many true combos require little more than timed button presses. What about Fox's waveshine? Technically insanely hard to pull off, but requiring little thought. Now that there are fewer combos, people who can string moves, reacting to what their opponents are doing, and deciding the best course of action, are doing well.

Fox's waveshine isn't insane to pull off... it's tough to get used to using in battle but once you've got it, it's like butter... ever waveshined someone across a stage (Link/Peach esp.), shine at the edge, waveshine off, and shinespike? It's tough but not impossible. You should know that even waveshining is subject to a small amount of DI btw. And very, very few combos that exist in Melee are memorized button presses... it requires prediction, reflexes, creativity, and precision.

And in response to the bolded part, you're just wrong. There are very, very few combos, and those that do exist work at certain percentages or are something like utilt, utilt, utilt... There's no hitstun!!! Stringing moves is extinct because after you land your first hit, your opponent can put out a hitbox before you can, thus ruining your combo attempt. You're much better off getting a hit in, running away, spamming a projectile, and just getting cheap damage until you can use a KO move.

Wavedashing eliminated one option of movement, but there are some substitutes. Air dodging is an additional option in the air, as is gliding for some characters.

Air dodging isn't an option of movement in Brawl...

Random tripping is a bad thing, I will admit. However, move-induced tripping isn't so bad; it adds an additional punishment to people that judge timing wrong, trying to move away or landing at the wrong time.

Agreed.

Because of a lack of combos, approaches are even more important. In Melee, someone who might not be as good as another person might happen to win an approach, and then do tons of damage in a super combo, using their technical skill. In Brawl, the person who wins each approach does a little bit of damage. Over time, the more skillful person should rack up more damage.

No no no no no. Because of a lack of combos, DEFENSE is even more important. Defense and shield camping. In Melee, if you didn't have a well rounded game, your opponent could find your weakness and exploit it. If all you can do is rushdown, it's very likely that a good opponent will find a way to slow you down and exploit your weaknesses.

In Brawl, you try not to approach generally, because it's very rarely advantageous. The person who turtles, spams, and waits out the opponent longer will rack up risk-free damage.

Also because of less combos, there are fewer characters with HUGE advantages over other characters. Now, this hardly means that 'tires don exits', but I think that they will hopefully not be quite as important as Melee. There are still issues with character priority, edguarding other characters, and so on, but aside from Snake (lol), a variety of characters have been winning tournaments.

I don't think so. Snake is more ridiculous than Fox or Marth ever was, thanks to his insane hitboxes. If you could combo him, maybe there'd be a way around that... but Brawl's gameplay results in the highest priority/big hitbox spammable moves being used constantly, then switching to a KO attempt.

Edgeguarding being gimped out of the game is perhaps the saddest thing for me... that and ******** infinite grabs. And lack of hitstun. And slowness. And lack of combos. And lack of excitement.

And what it's done to these boards.

UGH!!!

Sorry if I'm a bit terse, you're not as bad as a lot of the people posting on here but you need a bit 'o education. You're entitled to your opinions, but I must object when you claim the very things that I hate about Brawl are its strong points.