Citizen Snips
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys, I've been considering making a post on this for a while. As a scrub, I'm always terrified of looking like an idiot, but I feel like this is something that should be discussed at the sake of my personal image.
DISCLAIMER: This is all based on personal experience. May or may not apply to you. All of this also assumes you care about new players getting better, so if you're someone who isn't really into the whole community aspect of Melee, you should probably stay away.
Also, just to be clear, when I say a "new player", I'm speaking about someone who has shown that they are committed to the game. If someone's trying to get into Melee, it's up to you whether you want to show them all the cool combos you can do or try and tone your gameplay down to ease them into it. Sorry for any confusion.
What is Sandbagging?
From what I understand, there are slightly varied definitions of what is and isn't sandbagging. I define it as any player who doesn't play their best against another player for any reason. Generally, I feel like it's because the sandbagging player doesn't want the other player to feel as bad about getting wrecked.
Why Do I See Sandbagging As A Problem?
I follow a mentality bored into my mind thousands of times over by a game called Dwarf Fortress: "Losing is fun". If you haven't played Dwarf Fortress, you will not learn to play this game without losing. Losing is almost a core part of this game. You will lose all the time, forever, until you wrench victory out of a forgotten beast and consume its sweet juices.
"But Snips, why are you telling me this? You're talking like a crazy person, and I'm getting a little bit scared."
The reason losing is so common in Dwarf Fortress is because it has a steep learning curve. When you lose, you analyze what the cause of your loss was, i.e. Your craftsman went insane because you didn't get him the materials he needed to complete a masterpiece and opened the gates for a Bronze Colossus to waltz in and **** everything alive until your fortress was literally painted with blood. You then avoid having that happen again.
Guess what other game has a steep learning curve? Melee.
The difference between Melee's losing and Dwarf Fortress's losing is that the causes for loss in Melee are much less apparent to the inexperienced eye. New players have to really see that they are doing something wrong if they are ever going to get better. If a new player goes up against someone like Armada or Axe, there are pretty much two outcomes:
Armada or Axe Sandbag: The new guy only loses by 1 or 2 stocks and thinks, "I just lost to an amazing player by 1 or 2 stocks. I must be doing something right, I'll keep it up." They learn nothing.
Armada or Axe Play to Their Full Capability: The new guy gets obliterated. He doesn't feel confident. He feels VIOLATED. That's good. That's a good thing. Nobody wants to feel violated, and the player will work hard at never being violated again. They'll begin to analyze what they did wrong, if only to avoid that terrible feeling again.
Why Being Bad is Good
I am not good at this game. I don't claim to be, and I often tell people how bad I am. This isn't because I'm self-deprecating. It's because I'm trying to maintain the mindset that I am bad and everyone else is better than me (Also because it's true). Why do I do this? Well, when you're new to the competitive scene and constantly get *****, you begin to see that you really suck, and you learn. You learn extremely quickly, too, if you want to. When someone sandbags, you don't see that you suck. You just see that you didn't do awfully against a really good player. You lose focus of the fact that they're a REALLY GOOD PLAYER and that you STILL LOST, and you learn nothing. I don't feel good when I barely lose to someone who is far better than I. I feel a little insulted. I can't learn how to play at a higher level when the higher level player I'm fighting is playing to my level.
TL;DR and/or Snips is Rambling
To Everyone:
I understand you're trying to be nice, and you don't want someone to feel terrible, but in the long run, they'll learn more from getting obliterated than they will from almost winning. Instead of sandbagging, try giving them pointers on where they're making mistakes. And above all encourage them to keep trying. Don't just point out flaws, commend them on things that they did well. Even saying "Good match" at the end of the game can have a positive effect on a new players outlook, especially if you're someone they're aspiring to play like.
EDIT: Read the addendum at the end of this. A few posters brought up good points about the effects of being utterly defeated on players.
Suggestions
-Will be updated pending input on this thread-
To New Players:
Don't get mad when you lose. Losing is a part of this game. I enjoy losing, because it means what I did wrong will be way more apparent. Ask the player who beat you what you did wrong. Don't skip a tournament just because you don't think you'll win. I went to Apex and I didn't even enter. Playing friendlies, I was scared that I would actually make people angry because I asked so many questions about my mistakes and what I could do to correct them. Luckily, the Smash community is way more receiving and friendly than you may think. People seemed happy to help a scrub like me out, and I got better in those three days than I did in the two months leading up to them.
So What Mentality Should I Follow
Google "Dwarf Fortress fun"
ADDENDUM(S)
Demoralization
It has been noted through discussion that to a degree, sandbagging is important. Playing against someone who constantly destroys you as a brand new player can be confusing and disheartening. Try to find a balancing point against newer players where you still play above their level. Know your audience.
Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions are more than appreciated. I typed this up in a CS recitation, so just tell me if anything doesn't make sense.
I'd like to update this main topic as discussion goes on. Any points that seem to be a majority view or just make sense I'll add in here.
Side note: If someone gets really pissed at losing, they're probably not going to get very far in this game before they quit out of frustration =\
DISCLAIMER: This is all based on personal experience. May or may not apply to you. All of this also assumes you care about new players getting better, so if you're someone who isn't really into the whole community aspect of Melee, you should probably stay away.
Also, just to be clear, when I say a "new player", I'm speaking about someone who has shown that they are committed to the game. If someone's trying to get into Melee, it's up to you whether you want to show them all the cool combos you can do or try and tone your gameplay down to ease them into it. Sorry for any confusion.
What is Sandbagging?
From what I understand, there are slightly varied definitions of what is and isn't sandbagging. I define it as any player who doesn't play their best against another player for any reason. Generally, I feel like it's because the sandbagging player doesn't want the other player to feel as bad about getting wrecked.
Why Do I See Sandbagging As A Problem?
I follow a mentality bored into my mind thousands of times over by a game called Dwarf Fortress: "Losing is fun". If you haven't played Dwarf Fortress, you will not learn to play this game without losing. Losing is almost a core part of this game. You will lose all the time, forever, until you wrench victory out of a forgotten beast and consume its sweet juices.
"But Snips, why are you telling me this? You're talking like a crazy person, and I'm getting a little bit scared."
The reason losing is so common in Dwarf Fortress is because it has a steep learning curve. When you lose, you analyze what the cause of your loss was, i.e. Your craftsman went insane because you didn't get him the materials he needed to complete a masterpiece and opened the gates for a Bronze Colossus to waltz in and **** everything alive until your fortress was literally painted with blood. You then avoid having that happen again.
Guess what other game has a steep learning curve? Melee.
The difference between Melee's losing and Dwarf Fortress's losing is that the causes for loss in Melee are much less apparent to the inexperienced eye. New players have to really see that they are doing something wrong if they are ever going to get better. If a new player goes up against someone like Armada or Axe, there are pretty much two outcomes:
Armada or Axe Sandbag: The new guy only loses by 1 or 2 stocks and thinks, "I just lost to an amazing player by 1 or 2 stocks. I must be doing something right, I'll keep it up." They learn nothing.
Armada or Axe Play to Their Full Capability: The new guy gets obliterated. He doesn't feel confident. He feels VIOLATED. That's good. That's a good thing. Nobody wants to feel violated, and the player will work hard at never being violated again. They'll begin to analyze what they did wrong, if only to avoid that terrible feeling again.
Why Being Bad is Good
I am not good at this game. I don't claim to be, and I often tell people how bad I am. This isn't because I'm self-deprecating. It's because I'm trying to maintain the mindset that I am bad and everyone else is better than me (Also because it's true). Why do I do this? Well, when you're new to the competitive scene and constantly get *****, you begin to see that you really suck, and you learn. You learn extremely quickly, too, if you want to. When someone sandbags, you don't see that you suck. You just see that you didn't do awfully against a really good player. You lose focus of the fact that they're a REALLY GOOD PLAYER and that you STILL LOST, and you learn nothing. I don't feel good when I barely lose to someone who is far better than I. I feel a little insulted. I can't learn how to play at a higher level when the higher level player I'm fighting is playing to my level.
TL;DR and/or Snips is Rambling
To Everyone:
I understand you're trying to be nice, and you don't want someone to feel terrible, but in the long run, they'll learn more from getting obliterated than they will from almost winning. Instead of sandbagging, try giving them pointers on where they're making mistakes. And above all encourage them to keep trying. Don't just point out flaws, commend them on things that they did well. Even saying "Good match" at the end of the game can have a positive effect on a new players outlook, especially if you're someone they're aspiring to play like.
EDIT: Read the addendum at the end of this. A few posters brought up good points about the effects of being utterly defeated on players.
Suggestions
-Will be updated pending input on this thread-
To New Players:
Don't get mad when you lose. Losing is a part of this game. I enjoy losing, because it means what I did wrong will be way more apparent. Ask the player who beat you what you did wrong. Don't skip a tournament just because you don't think you'll win. I went to Apex and I didn't even enter. Playing friendlies, I was scared that I would actually make people angry because I asked so many questions about my mistakes and what I could do to correct them. Luckily, the Smash community is way more receiving and friendly than you may think. People seemed happy to help a scrub like me out, and I got better in those three days than I did in the two months leading up to them.
So What Mentality Should I Follow
Google "Dwarf Fortress fun"
ADDENDUM(S)
Demoralization
It has been noted through discussion that to a degree, sandbagging is important. Playing against someone who constantly destroys you as a brand new player can be confusing and disheartening. Try to find a balancing point against newer players where you still play above their level. Know your audience.
Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions are more than appreciated. I typed this up in a CS recitation, so just tell me if anything doesn't make sense.
I'd like to update this main topic as discussion goes on. Any points that seem to be a majority view or just make sense I'll add in here.
Side note: If someone gets really pissed at losing, they're probably not going to get very far in this game before they quit out of frustration =\
