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Sandbagging: A Discussion

Citizen Snips

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
475
Location
Yardley PA
I disagree with part of OP.

When I first played against an upper-echelon player, I didn't know at all why I was losing. I just knew I was. But after they slowed down and started using the same move over and over to punish, I began learning. So I guess the best way to teach a new player, IMO, would be to violate them once, and then play a very basic, efficient style to teach them DI, mixups, safe moves, and zoning at a pace they're used to.
Yeah, when I wrote it, I was treating someone who was a "new player" as someone who had been in the competitive scene for just barely long enough to know that they suck. Someone who is absolutely first time, no experience competitively should be sandbagged against. I think the most eloquent way of putting it was said by tarheel, and the point was raised by a few others. "Know your audience". I can definitely agree with that.
 

MTKO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
294
Location
Hampden, Maine
Also sometimes it may appear as if the person is not play as well as he usually is or just practicing tech skill on you and looks like sandbagging, but when you play against someone who maybe uses attacks at random and plays straight off what comes to their mind first, then trying to add in other things like mind games and such don't really work at that level. You just know what moves beats all their stuff and then do your stuff and win.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
If you're trying to teach, you sort of have to tone down for a lot of people. Just senselessly ****** them and playing solitaire for 1.5 - 2.5 mins is not a good way to teach most people in my experience. You need to walk them through stuff or slow down if they can't keep pace.

I like Umbreon's method of just weeding out bad habits and telling them to stop doing stuff that makes them lose until eventually they're just left with good stuff. While refining and attempting to prevent new bad habits from forming along the way.
 

Acryte

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
Messages
986
I don't like to play falco against players just learning the game because I feel like lasers shut down too many options for movement and restrict them too much, I feel like they won't get better as quickly playing against falco. But I like to play marth against people who start because they have to learn spacing really well and deal with his beast grab.

Also, if you play ON HIS LEVEL that could mean 2 different things...

It could mean you sandbag to hell and just don't try, or it could mean you absolutely expect him not to respond correctly to stuff and you can **** him extra hard because you don't have to hold back. He's not going to shield grab you, etc. you can just go in there extra hard and be super aggro, and basically suffocate him with offense. Don't let him even breathe and restrict his movement, take away his options and punish every mistake (and there will be tons).

If you're talking about the second one, where you play specifically to his skill level as in you know he won't take advantage of anything, then he's not going to get better either and he may get turned off. I like to not go beast mode, I will pass up opportunities I know I have, but keep my spacing and let him move and attempt to press offense at times. If I get a shield grab, I let him know every time.. so he realizes how important an aspect it is and soon WANTS to learn how to L cancel, etc. I focus more on coaching than just my own play, but I have to keep good spacing or else they aren't learning the game properly. If they do stupid moves I'll let them know, this move is recovery only, or don't spam F-smash all the time I will shield grab it every time if its predictable. Change your timing because I just spot dodged or dash danced to avoid it because I knew exactly when you would attack. If I'm baiting, I let them know that I baited it because I knew how they would respond. Then maybe they will start to learn whats going on in MY head when playing and they can start to add things to how they play.

I tone my game down but concentrate on the learning aspect which is quite different I guess than sandbagging. To me, sandbagging is like... either you aren't trying or if you feel like you are better than someone and SHOULD be winning, but you ****ed up things here or there or SDed etc. and its closer than it should be. Like if you try your *** off and do awesome rreads and combo the **** out of him and kill him. Then you SD and its back to even, sometimes you feel like... whatever, I don't even care. And that mentality that you get, is at the heart of sandbagging. Like you are OWED the win because you think you are the better player. But really the game doesn't give a **** about what your johns are so, yea. Sandbagging is when you get discouraged and just start not caring in the match, and not trying anymore.

Also the hell with people who say sandbagging is using a character that isn't your best, as long as you are trying your best to win with that character then whatever. If its tourney and they want to get better with a character then that's their choice. The big thing is if they are trying or not. I feel like if you are coaching new players its vital they learn to play against as many different matchups as they can. They improve at a faster pace it seems, instead of just learning HOW YOU PLAY THAT ONE CHARACTER. I've had players that previously learned how to play against my falco or ganondorf pretty well.. but it was just because they learned how I play. If they played people much worse than me, people I would **** into an early grave, they would lose or hold even when they should be simply capitalizing on the players weaknesses. The problem was that they learned one or two matchups, not that they learned how to play in general. How to take advantage of their obvious weaknesses. I think that when a player plays like that, he isn't thinking and observing as much as he should be, so I concentrate on expanding my own arsenal as well for their sake.
 

DippnDots

Feral Youth
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,149
Location
Cbus, Ohio
dunno, when i play people who i feel confident i can beat on a regular basis, i tend to sand bag in the sense that I don't play like i would a tournament match, that doesn't mean im not trying. I tend to be more reckless though. But usually when i'm on my last stock the sandbag disappears.

then against people who i feel are more even or better than me, i still don't play like i would in a tournament, but i definitely play more cautiously and try to figure out why I can't beat them as consistently or at all.

but in a tournament, doesn't matter who i'm playing against, there's just two characters, four stocks, and a stage.
 

Myztek

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
936
Location
Southaven, Mississippi
I like this topic. In fact, some of the points you bring up are a derivative of an article I'm working on now (I plan to post it soon ;o).

My opinion: Yes, sandbagging doesn't teach anything and yes it is insulting. But that's my personal feeling on it. I hate when a player sandbags against me - I may have taken two or three stocks off, but it doesn't really matter. I may have not even been able to take those stocks had the other player been going all out.

As to the point of other posters, some people can't handle constantly losing. Against some players I can go all out every time, and they persist and keep trying. Others will rage quit and stop playing. So in some cases, I agree there is a happy medium; but seeing another player be happy about performing better against me, not knowing I wasn't fully trying, bothers me.

In short, I hate sandbagging against people, and I hate when people sandbag against me. And if I have to sandbag for another player to continue playing with me, I get bored rather quickly. I love it when I run across someone with a positive attitude, though.

Potentially, this is a very deep topic. Just what I like!
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
My opinion: Yes, sandbagging doesn't teach anything and yes it is insulting.
This is wrong more often than not in my experience. Because most smashers suck. But if we're dealing with people that are already good and are trying to get to that "next level" then I agree.
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
play falco and laser camp the **** out of noobs till the rage quit. Ya, no need to sandbag.
 

Myztek

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
936
Location
Southaven, Mississippi
This is wrong more often than not in my experience. Because most smashers suck. But if we're dealing with people that are already good and are trying to get to that "next level" then I agree.
That's what I meant, actually.

against players who know nothing about the game, you have to slow down and teach. Once they gain a decent understanding and a reasonable amount of control over their character, that's when you can begin playing at your max. Unless they understand what's happening, owning them repeatedly is useless.
 

Citizen Snips

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
475
Location
Yardley PA
I feel like one of the conflicts in this discussion are the varying definitions of sandbagging people are using. Could we work out a clear definition of what is meant by sandbagging so there's no ambiguity?
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
I feel like one of the conflicts in this discussion are the varying definitions of sandbagging people are using. Could we work out a clear definition of what is meant by sandbagging so there's no ambiguity?
It's purposely giving the opponent openings so that they can actually see the opportunity that presents itself. Which means slowing down your play and doing more "obvious" things.

Like showing your face with no guard against an opponent and then he tries to punch you but then you narrowly dodge it on purpose.
 

gm jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
1,850
Location
Reading/Cambridge, UK
I'd call that baiting. Making someone think there is an opening which isn't really there which can then be punished? Sounds like baiting to me.
 

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
I've always thought of sandbagging as not utilizing your entire 'toolset.' Basically, you got a clutch, a friendly style, and a sandbag style.

Clutch is all out--win or nothing. Friendly is similar, but with more experimenting. Sandbagging is just giving your opponents lots of free stuff they normally wouldn't get on you.
 
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