Sakurai: "If we Direct Smash ONLY at The Competitive Players, It Will Have No Future."

[ZeruSlayer]

A part of me feels that Sakurai should step down as director for future smash games or play a lesser role. Whenever I read interviews involving Sakurai he either says something contradictory or complains about how strenuous developing a Smash game is that he gets tired real easily (which in turn makes his work sloppy, unbalanced, and rushed). What I want in a Smash game is taking the foundation of its predecessors and building upon it (nothing extremely different so it allows players to adapt easily and build their skills with each installment). I just feel that if Sakurai continued directing Smash, the game won't evolve and it would just continue to be oversimplified in continuing versions or unintended tech that proved to be complex will be completely removed in future installments (RIP Izaw cancelling).

 

[platomaker]

I never did say it was removed. I said it's much more forgiving for the individual in question recovering. I'm personally not against the auto ledge snap or good distance recoveries so long as they're not too polarizing for the one trying to edgeguard. It's the addition of removing edgehogging without adding anything in return to prevent someone getting back to the stage. It removes an option period.

Taken from comment #465: "It's just that it removing the option of edgeguarding period, with an auto ledge snap feature present, make it that much more forgiving. Smash 4 is already very defensive. Removing edgeguarding without offering something as a substitute removed an offensive option."

to which I replied that the first individual will pop off at the same speed and distance EVERYTIME, if you want an offensive option in teams then you spike. You want to force them off, you jump on the ledge. You want offense? Then GET at them. FORCE them to do something. The only thing this game does is make you unsafe when you're fighting.

 

[neohopeSTF]

lol relax dude it's just a game, go outside

Now you can play it outside with the 3DS version

 

[Vaidya]

Don't pay any mind to that fool. He clearly doesn't know the definition of "competitive." He still thinks that a game that has more technical ability is more competitive. WRONG! It only makes a game more TECHNICAL. That is all. What makes a game more competitive than another?? NUMBERS! HOW MANY PPL TURN UP FOR A TOURNAMENT! THAT'S HOW YOU MEASURE WHAT GAME IS MORE COMPETITIVE. I'm holding back on insults sooooo hard right now.

Haha I know. Funny how I, the casual player, who looks to play competitively online, knows more about what makes a game competitive XD

 

[ToPple]

There's a big difference right now called "Online Play" which Melee didn't had. You put a casual to play For Glory in Sm4sh and he might have a chance to win even to a more experienced player. You put a casual to play Melee agains a hardcore player and he will get destroyed and probably would not want to play it again.

What is the point of competitive play then if you work hard to get good and ten you can get beaten by somebody who never plays and it's because of a bad game engine?

 

[D.A. RAFA]

Crouch Cancelling to punish someone for hitting you.

Spacies horrible character design.

Can't grab the ledge backwards just cause.

Battlefields awful ledges.

Character diversity in terms of design.

You are just spewing mindless garbage right now.
What about the spacies design makes it horrible? (Please separate fact from opinion, please.) And support your argument properly. Don't just SAY THINGS and expect ppl to take them as you say them. That's not how it works.

Can't grab the ledge backwards. Ummm...YES YOU CAN! The first and last few frames of an UP B can grab backwards.

Battlefield's awful ledges? What makes them awful. EXPLAIN YOURSELF.

Character Diversity in terms of design.....Wow. Just Wow. WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT??! LMAO!

 

[Loki]

So many people entittled to their opinions. Welcome to the sad, ugly part of the smash community fellas, where everyone is a much better game designer than those who have dedicated their lives to it and where opinions are fact and melee is the way to go.

"Sakurai is a ******!", "Sakurai has no idea what smash is about!", "I wich they fire the man and put someone else". I am simply in awe at how childish and ******** these statements are.

Sakurai is right. Smash was never intended to be a competitive game because it was never envisioned to be such. The game has never, ever, been programed with a competitive mindset... we as gamers took it and shifted it from a party game to a more competitive one, however Sakurai is not in the wrong here... he is not the one completely warping the original vision of the game, it is us who are completelly disregarding the original design of the game.

We dont want items, we want more neutral-like stages, we want more balance, we want more speed, we want more hit-stun and shield-stun, we want more combos, we want more features, we want.... jesus christ do we want everything...

Sakurai is right. If it is a competitive game what you want, you might as well play Melee or P:M, wich IS a blalant "f. you" to Sakurai envision of the game and designing skills.

We might as well do what every other figthing game franchise does... rehashing the same stuff over and over, only amping graphics and making slight tweaks here and there, obviously, always with Melee on our minds because thats the status quo we have created for ourselves. Super smash melee apha edition, super smash melee ultra edition, super smash melee 4 wiiU edition

Bah..

Why cant we love the game for what it is?, why cant we play the game wathever way we want without having to point our fingers at each other?

Smash4 might not be as competitive as people would like it to be, but it is at least a fair game, balance-wise. There are no crazy inputs nor steep learning curves but it is still a game that holds true for all the stuff that makes a figthing game a figthing game. Zoning, footsies, reading your opponent...

 

[Zoa]

I know about wavedashing, I meant what else? PM sorta fills the gap though.

Well, just keep in mind PM its own unique thing. It still has different stats in comparison to Melee. The techs for the Melee part I typed up still apply, but lemme see what else I can remember off the top of my head.

The waveland option is one of them. It gives you the options similar to a wavedash, but you use it as you descend. It's great for platform movement, or after doing an aerial like Luigi's fair for instance. Then there's DACUS and aerial glide tossing.

 

[platomaker]

Taken from comment #465: "It's just that it removing the option of edgeguarding period, with an auto ledge snap feature present, make it that much more forgiving. Smash 4 is already very defensive. Removing edgeguarding without offering something as a substitute removed an offensive option."

to which I replied that the first individual will pop off at the same speed and distance EVERYTIME, if you want an offensive option in teams then you spike. You want to force them off, you jump on the ledge. You want offense? Then GET at them. FORCE them to do something. The only thing this game does is make you unsafe when you're fighting.

Phantom mewtwo, you might have lost focus on what you were trying to say. Just make a deliberate statement on it.

wavedash is gone, but the game isn't less competitive for it. Just allows for more defensive gameplay which isn't to say offensive gameplay isn't there, just one cannot go ALL offensive and expect to win. More variety is needed to progress. Brawl may have been boring to watch to some, but there are mind games that only exist because of brawl. Some even carried over to Smash 4.

 

[DDDchu]

I don't he meant it the way people are taking it. Like any game can be used competitively that has just enough mechanics, like Pokemon and even Mario Kart. I think he was talking about making so competitively complicated it wouldn't be fun for everyone, which Nintendo tries their best to do.

 

[platomaker]

What is the point of competitive play then if you work hard to get good and ten you can get beaten by somebody who never plays and it's because of a bad game engine?

That happened to you?

 

[D.A. RAFA]

lol relax dude it's just a game, go outside

I'm completely okay bro. I just finished my workout. About to shower and get ready for my NYE party. I like how every time I make a solid argument, instead of getting a rebuttal all I get is, "Geese guy, take it easy. It's just a game."

I know it's just a game. It's the level of STUPIDITY in a lot of these comments that get me all fired up.

 

[Zoa]

Taken from comment #465: "It's just that it removing the option of edgeguarding period, with an auto ledge snap feature present, make it that much more forgiving. Smash 4 is already very defensive. Removing edgeguarding without offering something as a substitute removed an offensive option."

to which I replied that the first individual will pop off at the same speed and distance EVERYTIME, if you want an offensive option in teams then you spike. You want to force them off, you jump on the ledge. You want offense? Then GET at them. FORCE them to do something. The only thing this game does is make you unsafe when you're fighting.

Ooops. Sorry. That was a huge typo on my part. I meant edgehogging.

 

[ToPple]

Sometimes I wish an Indie developer would make a proper Smash-esque game, a complete and original one, so not Smash Flash or Project M. So that there are no licensing issues, no problems with Nintendo, and overall a developer that concentrates on the competitive aspects. Sort of like Skull Girl's developer.

Sometimes I wish an Indie developer would make a proper Smash-esque game, a complete and original one, so not Smash Flash or Project M. So that there are no licensing issues, no problems with Nintendo, and overall a developer that concentrates on the competitive aspects. Sort of like Skull Girl's developer.

See Rivals of Aether

 

[platomaker]

Well, just keep in mind PM its own unique thing. It still has different stats in comparison to Melee. The techs for the Melee part I typed up still apply, but lemme see what else I can remember off the top of my head.

The waveland option is one of them. It gives you the options similar to a wavedash, but you use it as you descend. It's great for platform movement, or after doing an aerial like Luigi's fair for instance. Then there's DACUS and aerial glide tossing.

well, what else was lost in transition? Besides melee fox, melee falco, melee captain falcon, and melee jigglypuff.

 

[D.A. RAFA]

duck hunt dog.

Congratulations...You've accomplished nothing by simply stating the name of a character. Are YOU having problems with DHD? Is that it? I feel sorry for you if that's the case. But to state your opinion as fact simply because you are trash at playing against certain characters doesn't mean that game is less or more rush down than it's predecessor.

 

[THK]

I think many have forgotten that you have SLHG mode in smash 4. it doesn't turn the game into melee 2.0. it just speeds up the game, buffs combos even more, buffs aggressive play, and buffs edgeguardiing by nerfing most recoveries.

It will be great alongside the main game itself as a side event, and who knows, it could become the new main ruleset in smash 4's competitive future. the only downside is that you still don't every movement option that was in melee, but it doesn't matter in SLHG!

Smooth Lander is cool but 1) is equipment, and 2) alters stats.

Heavy Gravity is fun but it messes up quite a few characters in obnoxious ways, thins the balance considerably.

 

[Praxis]

If Smash Bros. taught us anything, it's that it doesn't take complex button presses a la Guilty Gear or BlazBlue to be competitive. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a competitive Smash scene or even a Pokémon scene to begin with. Sometimes, it's all about one's intuition that wins.

You're foolish if you think I'm talking about just Melee. I'm talking about the series as a whole. While the games have their share of advanced techniques, with Melee being the most technical game, they're still by and large simpler by design than most other fighters.

But, you're still wrong if we're talking about the series as a whole. I played competitive Brawl at a high level and saying it's "all about one's intuition" in Smash but that that's not true in Street Fighter is simply false.

Yeah, the inputs to do a Special in Smash might be easier than Street Fighter, but the logic and flow are pretty similar, and in Melee/PM the input difficulty and complexity ends up being similar.

I don't see how anything Smash has done proves that "it's all about one's intuition that wins". Have you ever played another fighting game semi-seriously?

 

[D.A. RAFA]

Meh, I don't give a **** about the "competitive" scene in the Smash community. That's his opinion right there and everyone should be respecting it instead of tossing around unnecessary flame wars about it. Really, all of y'all seriously need to stop overreacting and get over it.

Such a simple request and yet impossible for so many ppl to do. Sad, isn't it?

 

[platomaker]

Ooops. Sorry. That was a huge typo on my part. I meant edgehogging.

but even then, edgehogging is gone but is replaced by this mechanism that forces a player off the stage into the same animation everytime. How can someone not see the potential in that? Forcing a player off + no safe landings.

 

[Zoa]

Phantom mewtwo, you might have lost focus on what you were trying to say. Just make a deliberate statement on it.

wavedash is gone, but the game isn't less competitive for it. Just allows for more defensive gameplay which isn't to say offensive gameplay isn't there, just one cannot go ALL offensive and expect to win. More variety is needed to progress. Brawl may have been boring to watch to some, but there are mind games that only exist because of brawl. Some even carried over to Smash 4.

Er...how have I lost focus? You're asking questions and I'm answering them specifically. I've never really said it was less competitive either. That's your inference. Every Smash is competitive by definition, and you will indeed see players make games competitive. That's fine and dandy. There's nothing wrong with that. But my original point is that the game play is watered down because it removes options. That's not good in my book.

 

[platomaker]

Congratulations...You've accomplished nothing by simply stating the name of a character. Are YOU having problems with DHD? Is that it? I feel sorry for you if that's the case. But to simply state your opinion as fact simply because you are trash at playing certain characters doesn't mean that game is less or more rush down than it's predecessor.

Duck hunt Dog IS camping in this game. If you ignore that then there's not much else I can tell you.

 

[platomaker]

Er...how have I lost focus? You're asking questions and I'm answering them specifically. I've never really said it was less competitive either. That's your inference. Every Smash is competitive by definition, and you will indeed see players make games competitive. That's fine and dandy. There's nothing wrong with that. But my original point is that the game play is watered down because it removes options. That's not good in my book.

this statement was put in before I read about your typo. I thought you might have gotten confused for a bit. somehow our replies are growing further apart.

 

[Zoa]

but even then, edgehogging is gone but is replaced by this mechanism that forces a player off the stage into the same animation everytime. How can someone not see the potential in that? Forcing a player off + no safe landings.

You're going to need to elaborate here. I'm confused what you mean. Do you mean stealing the ledge from someone?

 

[D.A. RAFA]

Duck hunt Dog IS camping in this game. If you ignore that then there's not much else I can tell you.

Okay, let me explain something real quick to you and I'm going to dumb it down as best as I can for you. This game came out on console on Nov. 21st and today is Dec. 31st. The game has only been out for 1 month and 10 days. If for that amount of time you've only fought against camping DHD, THAT DOESN'T MEAN that the character was designed to be a camper. It only means that every DHD player you've ran into decide to play that character in that way. I'm a firm believer that if you really know how to utilize your character, you can rush down w/ ANYONE, however that is my opinion. And that doesn't even support your original statement. Just because DHD camps doesn't make it a camping game. You said that you can't rush down in this game. You've never watched competitive smash 4 streams? Show me a DHD that can camp successfully versus a Pro Diddy Player like JTails. Show me that much and I'll agree to what you are saying.

See...that wasn't so hard was it? Separating fact from opinion. There was my example. Now go...you try. lol

 

[Kingkool]

alright let's not all have a fit, we all already knew he felt this way. And while I adore Smash Bros. as a competitive game if Sakurai hadn't wanted to make a non-competitive game so many years ago Smash wouldn't exist. So regardless of Sakurai's position on the competitive potential of the game I'm just glad that he made it. We can all get upset that he doesn't understand but without him none of us would be here.

 

[platomaker]

You're going to need to elaborate here. I'm confused what you mean. Do you mean stealing the ledge from someone?

...dude, the point about no edgehogging. You said it was removed. You understand the process, right? Just in case, when two people grab on, the first to grab gets knocked off if they don't leave the ledge quick enough, they "pop" off. That's what i was saying.

after testing it out, the lag from a jump isn't that bad, but the lag after jumping back from off the ledge or from a recovery is a bit more so. No safe landing, the player trying to land is better off attacking in air rather than trying to dodge or simply land. if they attack, if whiffed, then they are really in trouble.

that's what I was saying.

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

LoL I am not even surprised by the things this man says anymore. I truly do appreciate what Sakurai has done in the past because who knows if we would have ever gotten a Super Smash Bros. on N64 or any other future console with out him showing that tech demo to Nintendo with Mario punching stuff.

At the same time I really think he needs to practice interviews or get a rep to speak on his behalf because some of the comments he makes are basically assassination attempts on his own franchise. I would hope he doesn't actually mean "competitive Smash has no future" and " I feel that if you want to play a fighting game seriously, there are other competitive fighting games that are more suited to that, and people like that could have fun playing those." That is basically telling long time fans to go play another fighting game, and essentially telling consistent consumers not to buy this product or the next.

As a developer, who works for a business, I find it hard to fathom why you would tell potential buyers if you're looking for this one aspect of my game you should play something else. I would hope he realizes that the competitive scene he's trying to alienate are the consistent consumers and fans of the franchise. I understand the need to draw in a ever increasing wave of "new" costumers, but it is bad business practices to purposely purge "returning" consumers with statements like that.

I would personally love to see the franchise in the hands of a new lead director; one that understands the importance of giving fans what they want and innovate the series with each entry like Sakurai honestly does with each iteration.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

The bolded bit was misinterpreted and taken out of context. Especially since he says that you can play both 1v1 or FFA with items with no problem. The "go play a real fighter" bit is really alienating coming from a director though. Last time I checked, party games didn't need 7 years worth of dev time, huge playtesting staff, and balance patches.

Though it does strike me that he's holding some sort of bias towards the competitive community, or competitive gaming in general. Sounds like he and his dev team need to seek better rapport with the tourney players and maybe he'll understand where we're coming from.

 

[platomaker]

Okay, let me explain something real quick to you and I'm going to dumb it down as best as I can for you. This game came out on console on Nov. 21st and today is Dec. 31st. The game has only been out for 1 month and 10 days. If for that amount of time you've only fought against camping DHD, THAT DOESN'T MEAN that the character was designed to be a camper. It only means that every DHD player you've ran into decide to play that character in that way. I'm a firm believer that if you really know how to utilize your character, you can rush down w/ ANYONE, however that is my opinion.

See...that wasn't so hard was it? Separating fact from opinion. There was my example. Now go...you try. lol

Nah, it just means the most EFFECTIVE DHD players were campers. That isn't to say its bad, I'm talking from experience here so tone down the attitude a bit and let me explain clearly so that you might get something from this. The only way to really overcome a DHD is to render one of its projectiles or specials useless. He is a camper, and if you ignore that and try to go all in through offense you're going to have a bad time. its not enough to reflect it either.

 

[Tino]

Such a simple request and yet impossible for so many ppl to do. Sad, isn't it?

It's not just sad, it's a tragedy. That's the main reason why I don't like Smash community's competitive scene and the reason why I don't play the Smash games competitively. People out there just takes this way too damn seriously like they're battling over who's gonna win a million dollars or who's gonna win a new car. I mean, why can't they ever learn to just play these games just for fun like me, huh?

 

[Zoa]

...dude, the point about no edgehogging. You said it was removed. You understand the process, right? Just in case, when two people grab on, the first to grab gets knocked off if they don't leave the ledge quick enough, they "pop" off. That's what i was saying.

after testing it out, the lag from a jump isn't that bad, but the lag after jumping back from off the ledge or from a recovery is a bit more so. No safe landing, the player trying to land is better off attacking in air rather than trying to dodge or simply land. if they attack, if whiffed, then they are really in trouble.

that's what I was saying.

My apologies. I'm tired as hell. My cognitive abilities are getting worse with each reply. I just finished a 14 hour shift a while ago, and just got stuck in that limbo where you want to sleep but can't. I'm gonna get a coffee. Do you have frame data for this finding?

 

[platomaker]

My apologies. I'm tired as hell. My cognitive abilities are getting worse with each reply. I just finished a 14 hour shift a while ago, and just got stuck in that limbo where you want to sleep but can't. I'm gonna get a coffee. Do you have frame data for this finding?

nah its cool. and nah i don't have the frame data, its just something I was playing around with. the lag is definitely longer if you're coming up from the ledge or did a recovery. Then again it could be the height of the jump/fall too but I didn't think to test that.
Its little things like that which give people the edge, but most players overlook it.

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

Another mind boggling notion of these statements is the fact both Tekken and Street Fighter have HUGE hardcore followings and they consistently sell enough to make back production cost AND THEM SOME! Especially in Tekken's case; it is the top selling fighting game franchise world wide. Hell, didn't Namco help develop Smash Wii U/3DS. Why make these comments AFTER enlisting the staff of the most successful hardcore fighter out there? I've seen casuals enjoy Tekken personally, and if sales are any indication the rest of the world has, too.

M. Sakurai is a brain fart wrapped in a mind blown sandwich.

 

[Zoa]

nah its cool. and nah i don't have the frame data, its just something I was playing around with. the lag is definitely longer if you're coming up from the ledge or did a recovery. Then again it could be the height of the jump/fall too but I didn't think to test that.
Its little things like that which give people the edge, but most players overlook it.

Alright. I'll get back with you later when I feel better. PM if you want.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I don't see how anything Smash has done proves that "it's all about one's intuition that wins". Have you ever played another fighting game semi-seriously?

Mortal Kombat 1-3 and 9, Street Fighter 4, Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and 3, and BlazBlue: Continuum Shift. Yes, I know what I'm talking about.

 

[platomaker]

Another mind boggling notion of these statements is the fact both Tekken and Street Fighter have HUGE hardcore followings and they consistently sell enough to make back production cost AND THEM SOME! Especially in Tekken's case; it is the top selling fighting game franchise world wide. Hell, didn't Namco help develop Smash Wii U/3DS. Why make these comments AFTER enlisting the staff of the most successful hardcore fighter out there? I've seen casuals enjoy Tekken personally, and if sales are any indication the rest of the world has, too.

M. Sakurai is a brain fart wrapped in a mind blown sandwich.

From the investment of street fighter 4 they made 5 games that, outside tweaks, are almost identical with some new updates and characters. Then they made a spin-off... and street fighter 5 looks like the final polished product in comparison. Though many would (and should) still wait for it's update.

 

[KiTsuNe_23]

LoL I am not even surprised by the things this man says anymore. I truly do appreciate what Sakurai has done in the past because who knows if we would have ever gotten a Super Smash Bros. on N64 or any other future console with out him showing that tech demo to Nintendo with Mario punching stuff.

At the same time I really think he needs to practice interviews or get a rep to speak on his behalf because some of the comments he makes are basically assassination attempts on his own franchise. I would hope he doesn't actually mean "competitive Smash has no future" and " I feel that if you want to play a fighting game seriously, there are other competitive fighting games that are more suited to that, and people like that could have fun playing those." That is basically telling long time fans to go play another fighting game, and essentially telling consistent consumers not to buy this product or the next.

As a developer, who works for a business, I find it hard to fathom why you would tell potential buyers if you're looking for this one aspect of my game you should play something else. I would hope he realizes that the competitive scene he's trying to alienate are the consistent consumers and fans of the franchise. I understand the need to draw in a ever increasing wave of "new" costumers, but it is bad business practices to purposely purge "returning" consumers with statements like that.

I would personally love to see the franchise in the hands of a new lead director; one that understands the importance of giving fans what they want and innovate the series with each entry like Sakurai honestly does with each iteration.

The comment about the competitive scene was mistranslated. Please read through the comments to find mine, and others post on this matter.

 

[D.A. RAFA]

Nah, it just means the most EFFECTIVE DHD players were campers. That isn't to say its bad, I'm talking from experience here so tone down the attitude a bit and let me explain clearly so that you might get something from this. The only way to really overcome a DHD is to render one of its projectiles or specials useless. He is a camper, and if you ignore that and try to go all in through offense you're going to have a bad time. its not enough to reflect it either.

I'm gonna wrap this up for this will be the last time I respond to you. You said that Brawl and Smash 4 are not rush down smash games. Your argument behind that is because of DHD being designed to be a "camper" according to you. So.... that's it? Because YOU FEEL that one character was designed to camp, because the only "effective" DHD players camped, you feel the entire game is defensive? Because that's all I got from what you said. And look, if I insulted you in anyway, I apologize. I don't mean to insult, but just because I enjoy to debate doesn't mean I have an attitude problem. That is all.

P.S. I read my previous statement to you. That last bit did come across as condescending and I apologize.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Smooth Lander is cool but 1) is equipment, and 2) alters stats.

Heavy Gravity is fun but it messes up quite a few characters in obnoxious ways, thins the balance considerably.

as much as i love this mode, i do agree whith you. the random stats and getting the equipment is a pain in the butt. it could take a year or so for everyone in the smash 4 scene to get most of the equipment and balance the stats, but it's still worth testing!