Sakurai: "If we Direct Smash ONLY at The Competitive Players, It Will Have No Future."

[LimitCrown]

I personally think that the problem of that could simply be elevated by giving us the option to switch on/ off such things as L canceling and Wave dashing and what not...

Of course, I have never made a game, so what can I say?

Wavedashing would require changing the air dodge, while L-cancelling wouldn't really provide any inherent benefits.

 

[KiTsuNe_23]

This, this and this 10 times over. Even with a bit of context Japanese often leaves so much information out of a sentence and expects you to fill in the blanks.

If Japanese was a more direct language, there would be a lot less gamers running around freaking out about out of context comments mistranslated with information missing.

Someday maybe the people reading this post will understand that. And please don't take anything away from the original translator, all-in-all he did a good job. But because Japanese is hard (and according to him he did this at 2am) he made a mistake. He is a person after all.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

It is exactly this. I'm Japanese, and this is not what the original article says. It says "If [I, as director,] were to throw all of it [effort into making Smash 4] into the competitive aspects, the game [as in the smash bros series] would have no future."
All Sakurai is saying is that he feels that it is vital that Smash Bros. be a combination of casual and hardcore aspects.
This misleading and useless argument-creating article should be removed from the front page, and a corrected new article should be created.

please try to get this through these peoples heads but that might be hard seeing how they are so far up their own asses

 

[JoeRo]

I don't understand how saying if he made the game more hardcore would inhibit beginners from being able to play. Melee is hardcore as ****, but no one ever had a problem with playing it for fun.

 

[FoxMcClown]

You can see his point of view either way if you know what was his premise for the original super smash bros. He wanted to make an easy version of arcade fighting games for everyone to pick up.

The whole game is based on his will to make a fighting game thats less competitive. So every demand for perfect competitive games in smash bros is just gona be ignored.

Since what he really says is that he would not put all his effort in the competitive part of smash, because otherwise the franchise had no future, which is true. The whole premise of the game is to be less competitive. When ever you want to believe it or not, it should be obvious who gives in the most money to carry these projects.... pro tip: its not competitive players that makes up the bulk of sales.

 

[JoeRo]

I don't understand how saying if he made the game more hardcore would inhibit beginners from being able to play. Melee is hardcore as ****, but no one ever had a problem with playing it for fun.

 

[ssknight7]

Honestly doesn't make sense. Because it's not Melee? Is that why? WHO CARES?!

The reason this "honestly" doesn't make sense to you is because you've taken no time to consider a point of view other than your own, and you've made a baseless inference that people dislike Brawl and 4 because they aren't Melee. You should actually pay attention the next time someone decides to waste their time trying to use the English language to convey ideas to you.

You're dumb.

 

[Jellyfishn]

Someday maybe the people reading this post will understand that. And please don't take anything away from the original translator, all-in-all he did a good job. But because Japanese is hard (and according to him he did this at 2am) he made a mistake. He is a person after all.

And I understand that. I didn't mean to point any fingers. When I pointed out his mistake he fixed it immediately and was really cool about it.

 

[EmblemCrossing]

Hmmmm... Sakurai says we should just go play another more competitive fighter because smash isn't supposed to be competitive? Soul Calibur Link just isn't the same ;-;

Soul Calibur II Link is sooper broken.

 

[Vaidya]

The reason this "honestly" doesn't make sense to you is because you've taken no time to consider a point of view other than your own, and you've made a baseless inference that people dislike Brawl and 4 because they aren't Melee. You should actually pay attention the next time someone decides to waste their time trying to use the English language to convey ideas to you.

You're dumb.

Lmao you're weak.

That's literally why elitists hate Brawl and SSB4. "It's not Melee." You can cry, rage, and flame at me all you want, hate me all you want. At the end of the day, Melee will be the reason competitive babies can't play the much better recent games.

 

[KiTsuNe_23]

And I understand that. I didn't mean to point any fingers. When I pointed out his mistake he fixed it immediately and was really cool about it.

My comment about "don't take away from the original translator" was mostly for other people. Sorry about that. My head is switching back and forth between English and Japanese too much right now.

 

[Dragoomba]

Sometimes I wish an Indie developer would make a proper Smash-esque game, a complete and original one, so not Smash Flash or Project M. So that there are no licensing issues, no problems with Nintendo, and overall a developer that concentrates on the competitive aspects. Sort of like Skull Girl's developer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGwdhC8OZg8

 

[JayTheUnseen]

My comment about "don't take away from the original translator" was mostly for other people. Sorry about that. My head is switching back and forth between English and Japanese too much right now.

I think he made a mistake in putting it up without the whole translation though.Normally you could say:OK,that's not the whole translation,so take it with a grain of salt.
But the Smash community just isn't like that...they don't care whether it's out of context or 1/100 of the interview,or if the full translation is put up later.

 

[THK]

Hmmmm he really isn't saying anything new here is he?

I mean I get what he's saying; trying to make a game appeal to everyone with the competitive elephant standing in the room can't be easy.

I would assume he's still haunted by the negative casual outburst which honestly was by a loud minority that act like Melee killed their family and kicked their dog. The word wavedashing haunts them like the killer in a slasher movie.

But I'm still in the belief that casuals will still play the game anyway even if it's more competitive, and this doesn't have to be done by adding complicated manuvers. You don't have to add multishining to make it competitive, you don't need wavedashing (though more movement options are always welcome) to make it competitive, you don't need an input context Smooth Landing (I'm still in the belief that l-canceling should be an option like mobility methods, not a mandatory thing to learn for success) to be competitive.

Really all you need for something to be competitive are people and a scene. But minor adjustments wouldn't hurt (rolls, shields, Lucario & rage).

But alas, many companies seem to have this fear of scaring away weaker players, which is why we have comeback mechanics now. :/

 

[platomaker]

It removes movement options, ways to approach, and generally makes things much more unsafe to do considering how powerful defensive options are.

Definitely agree with making things much more unsafe to do in smash 4 as there is almost no safe landings in the game, planking is not a thing to do anymore, and landing from ledges or recoveries are even worse. Approaching an enemy, especially campers require extreme caution and thought and, once breached, you can never let up or face more of camping.

yeah, the game is indeed different. To anyone who says its dumbed down is missing the point of it all completely. Going ALL offense is not an option anymore.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I think he made a mistake in putting it up without the whole translation though.Normally you could say:OK,that's not the whole translation,so take it with a grain of salt.
But the Smash community just isn't like that...they don't care whether it's out of context or 1/100 of the interview,or if the full translation is put up later.

as much as i dislike sakurai's "comment" about competitive smash has no future, you do make a good point. Most of us jump to conclusions too easily. This is why when a japanese articlepops up and gets translated, i mostly stay open-minded and wait till it's fully 100% translated!

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Yes, do your job and patch everything, leave no technique, nothing, make it what you promised it to be, 'balanced'.

 

[ThePhoenixDown]

Anyone wanna play Persona 4 Arena with me now?

 

[platomaker]

I don't understand how saying if he made the game more hardcore would inhibit beginners from being able to play. Melee is hardcore as ****, but no one ever had a problem with playing it for fun.

ever had... like when? 10, 11, 12 years ago? You gotta ask when wavedashing began. L-canceling ain't anything to write home about, but when did it and other movement options become the majority of the game's tactics. What were casuals doing then? Probably mario kart double dash.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

People need to realize that Nintendo is a family-friendly focused company, and as a company they want to get the more people as possible to play and enjoy their games. Sakurai is not dumb or anything for thinking that way, even though I would prefer *MYSELF* a more competitive focused game, I can understand his point of view.

And also remember that Melee wasn't also intended to be the way it is right now.

The community that enjoy playing the game competitively is the one that has driven this scene where it is right now, and we will continue to do so with or without developer support.

But this tho?
http://www.computerandvideogames.co...lains-nintendos-renewed-passion-for-the-core/

 

[Kink-Link5]

A number of people are calling Smash 4 watered down, have they played Brawl?
Removal of techs, but then addition of other ones.
hit stun differences (n64 still has the most exaggerated though)
differences of "control", later games do have more variety.

It doesn't hurt the characters in the game by changing the game, simply changes how these characters are played. Ask anyone who still plays marth in smash 4.

Smash 4 really does feel like a watered down version of Brawl. The movement somehow became even clunkier and recovery is free.

 

[Spurgis22]

At least we have melee.

 

[BobVance_]

Honestly doesn't make sense. Because it's not Melee? Is that why? WHO CARES?!

Melee's not even the first ****ing game in the series. Stop expecting Melee every time.

No, it's because they just are bad fighting wise. Seriously, the brawlies are always like "y u haet cuz it not melee?" No, because it's just got bad game design. Great with friends, not much else.

 

[LimitCrown]

ignore this post

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Wavedashing would require changing the air dodge, while L-cancelling wouldn't really provide any inherent benefits.

Never said that it had to be those specific techniques, and they if things like wavedashing was ever in the game they could make it closer to Marvel wavedashing in some way
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[smashbroskilla]

please try to get this through these peoples heads but that might be hard seeing how they are so far up their own *****

How are you still posting in this thread? Your profile says you're a 20 year old girl who keeps referring to other posters as children yet a handful of people have agreed with you in this thread. Those few people being massive Sakurai fans. I'm surprised you haven't recieved several warnings for blatantly trolling people and name calling for 10 pages now. It's not even like you're even trying to remotely debate or understand someone elses perspective; you're just an unwitty wannabe troll.

 

[TheGrooseofLegend]

So, many people are saying that the majority of the people here are misinterpreting Sakurai. That he is not saying that "the competitive scene will die" and is saying something more along the lines of "a Smash game that focuses solely on competitive play will not be successful". I agree that this is more likely what he is saying, considering what follows after the highlighted paragraph.

However, I'd like to argue against this point.

What Sakurai said would have probably been true back in 2001: if a different company made a game with the exact same physics and mechanics as Melee, but removed the Nintendo characters and said this game is meant to be competitive, I doubt there would be any interest for the game at all.

But in the present day, when Melee has made its mark on Esports by being featured in two Evos and an MLG, interest in competitive Smash has never been higher. In fact, I'd say that any developer who was making a platform fighter would be guaranteed some interest if they said "It's similar to Melee". Even though Air Dash Online is dead, you can't argue that people weren't interested at first when they heard the dev team were fans of Melee and included people like Mew2King. Rivals of Aether is sure to gain some players from Melee (I know I'm one of them) once it's released. If a larger company made a platform fighter and planned to cater to the Melee scene, it would probably have a solid solid playerbase if they did things right. Sure, the numbers will be smaller than the "casual" playerbase, as Sakurai fears, but in return you get a dedicated number of consumers who will look forward to your next game.

Someone might bring up Allstars as an example of a competitive-focused Smash failing, but I'd say that Allstars didn't fail because it focused on competition. There are a lot of horror stories regarding Allstars's functionality as a game. I heard that the super system destroyed character balance, as it screwed over characters without easy combos into supers. I've read a TO's experience with setting up Allstars in his tourney and noted how it had more glitches than Brawl. I'd say that Allstars failed because it was a hamfisted attempt at implementing traditional FG mechanics to platform fighters.

TL;DR Smash as a competitive game does have a future, and its all thanks to Melee.

 

[platomaker]

Smash 4 really does feel like a watered down version of Brawl. The movement somehow became even clunkier and recovery is free.

recovery is free ...how? even the villager has trouble. Can you elaborate please?

 

[Zoa]

Definitely agree with making things much more unsafe to do in smash 4 as there is almost no safe landings in the game, planking is not a thing to do anymore, and landing from ledges or recoveries are even worse. Approaching an enemy, especially campers require extreme caution and thought and, once breached, you can never let up or face more of camping.

yeah, the game is indeed different. To anyone who says its dumbed down is missing the point of it all completely. Going ALL offense is not an option anymore.

Never said it was dumbed down. Just watered down. It takes away good movement options that provide defensive and offensive options. Hell, L-cancel alone would actually provide much needed safe options for characters like G'dorf.

 

[Jellyfishn]

The real reason we should be ranting is because of this quote:


So you mean there were a few more characters in the original plans than made it into the final roster?

Sakurai: Yes... but I am not going to tell you who it was.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

How are you still posting in this thread? Your profile says you're a 20 year old girl who keeps referring to other posters as children yet a handful of people have agreed with you in this thread. Those few people being massive Sakurai fans. I'm surprised you haven't recieved several warnings for blatantly trolling people and name calling for 10 pages now. It's not even like you're even trying to remotely debate or understand someone elses perspective; you're just an unwitty wannabe troll.

thanks for pointing out my mistakes XD I take all responsibility for them. I'm only hear because I want to watch things get better, in all honestly. I just want everyone to stay calm and wait till this article is all the way translated properly

 

[KiTsuNe_23]

So, many people are saying that the majority of the people here are misinterpreting Sakurai. That he is not saying that "the competitive scene will die" and is saying something more along the lines of "a Smash game that focuses solely on competitive play will not be successful". I agree that this is more likely what he is saying, considering what follows after the highlighted paragraph.

However, I'd like to argue against this point.

What Sakurai said would have probably been true back in 2001: if a different company made a game with the exact same physics and mechanics as Melee, but removed the Nintendo characters and said this game is meant to be competitive, I doubt there would be any interest for the game at all.

But in the present day, when Melee has made its mark on Esports by being featured in two Evos and an MLG, interest in competitive Smash has never been higher. In fact, I'd say that any developer who was making a platform fighter would be guaranteed some interest if they said "It's similar to Melee". Even though Air Dash Online is dead, you can't argue that people weren't interested at first when they heard the dev team were fans of Melee and included people like Mew2King. Rivals of Aether is sure to gain some players from Melee (I know I'm one of them) once it's released. If a larger company made a platform fighter and planned to cater to the Melee scene, it would probably have a solid solid playerbase if they did things right. Sure, the numbers will be smaller than the "casual" playerbase, as Sakurai fears, but in return you get a dedicated number of consumers who will look forward to your next game.

Someone might bring up Allstars as an example of a competitive-focused Smash failing, but I'd say that Allstars didn't fail because it focused on competition. There are a lot of horror stories regarding Allstars's functionality as a game. I heard that the super system destroyed character balance, as it screwed over characters without easy combos into supers. I've read a TO's experience with setting up Allstars in his tourney and noted how it had more glitches than Brawl. I'd say that Allstars failed because it was a hamfisted attempt at implementing traditional FG mechanics to platform fighters.

TL;DR Smash as a competitive game does have a future, and its all thanks to Melee.

The difference is I'm interpreting it in his (Sakurai's) native language, and not from someone else's interpretation of Sakurai's native language. And from someone who has been reading the article in Japanese all day, I can say with certainty that he is NOT trying to kill the competitive side.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Smash 4 really does feel like a watered down version of Brawl. The movement somehow became even clunkier and recovery is free.

i understand because some of the mechanics in brawl were removed, but they heavily promoted camping alongside it's slow gameplay and i thought removing them was a good idea. Although i do agree to some extent that defensive play is still strong in Smash 4 and recoveries are too good most of the time, it's defensive options aren't as broken as brawls. IMO, i don't think smash 4 is more watered down than brawl.

 

[Opana]

It'll be competitive regardless so I don't really care. People seem to whine and complain each new installment; just accept that he's not going to cater to any particular crowd and you won't be disappointed.

 

[Geoffrey Druyts]

Maybe people will finally realize how dumb Sakurai is and stop worshipping him now.

No more smash for you.

 

[Zoa]

recovery is free ...how? even the villager has trouble. Can you elaborate please?

Removal of edgehogging coupled with floaty physics, generally good distance recoveries across the cast, and an auto snap ledge grab that can actually punish someone who tried to go deep for edgeguarding are my guess.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

How are you still posting in this thread? Your profile says you're a 20 year old girl who keeps referring to other posters as children yet a handful of people have agreed with you in this thread. Those few people being massive Sakurai fans. I'm surprised you haven't recieved several warnings for blatantly trolling people and name calling for 10 pages now. It's not even like you're even trying to remotely debate or understand someone elses perspective; you're just an unwitty wannabe troll.

I agree with her... but I'm not a Sakurai fan.... U wot m80? Also if you are surprised she hasn't received warnings for blatant trolling, trust me you haven't seen other people that been on some certain Smash 4 threads >_>

 

[BobVance_]

It'll be competitive regardless so I don't really care. People seem to whine and complain each new installment; just accept that he's not going to cater to any particular crowd and you won't be disappointed.

He caters to the crowd who fails at everything in life, apparently.

 

[platomaker]

Never said it was dumbed down. Just watered down. It takes away good movement options that provide defensive and offensive options. Hell, L-cancel alone would actually provide much needed safe options for characters like G'dorf.

hm...do we keep L canceling to benefit some characters more than others or eliminate it so almost everyone has to work around that? The same argument was applied to custom moves too.

While I was for custom moves, the majority of feedback was simply "get over it". It would add more to the game, but would wreck balance in the end, even though there are ways around it. Some of the things you have in mind may fall in the same category, it would help but some other characters might exploit it to broken levels.

I don't see it yet, and I would definitely like a chance to disprove it, but oh well.

 

[hivetyrant36]

I agree with his stand point, however, I do think he could release a competitive version. I've seen it happen time and time again, a popular franchise chose to make the gameplay less forgiving and more for eSports and the pro scene. Immediately the fan base died. Players like me who don't want to have to know about wave dashes and the like stopped playing because we lost too much.

BUT, I think there is something to be done. I have seen the competitive side in smash, and I think it is one of the few games that should be competitive as well as beginner friendly. I played my fair share of Project M. I think on top of SMASH FOR WII U, they should release something basic, simple, stipped down for tournament play, like, SMASH FOR WII U: TOURNAMENT. I think this would go over greatly. Who said you can only make one iteration of a game? Hopefully the Project M guys will find a way to get Smash WIIU to mod.