Sakurai: "If we Direct Smash ONLY at The Competitive Players, It Will Have No Future."

[Overtaken]

Casuals still played melee. The game being more "hardcore" doesn't stop them from enjoying it. It's bull**** logic.

This, so much this. I was a filthy casual playing 64 and for a long time playing Melee yet I had a god damned blast. My 7 year old sister and I, age 11 (at the time) were as far removed from the hardcore/competitive crowd as humanly possible yet we never felt alienated from Melee, like as if it were designed to exclude us because we weren't 1337 enough. Stahp it Sakuray! You're hurting everyone!

 

[hivetyrant36]

He caters to the crowd who fails at everything in life, apparently.

Nah, dude, he caters to the kids, the teens, and the adults, who come home from work and school and just want to relax and have a bit of fun.

 

[Vaidya]

No, it's because they just are bad fighting wise. Seriously, the brawlies are always like "y u haet cuz it not melee?" No, because it's just got bad game design. Great with friends, not much else.

Riiiight. Bad design choice. Tripping. Alright. Nice. Everyone hated it. Now tell me what else besides that and L canceling.

 

[Zoa]

hm...do we keep L canceling to benefit some characters more than others or eliminate it so almost everyone has to work around that? The same argument was applied to custom moves too.

While I was for custom moves, the majority of feedback was simply "get over it". It would add more to the game, but would wreck balance in the end, even though there are ways around it. Some of the things you have in mind may fall in the same category, it would help but some other characters might exploit it to broken levels.

I don't see it yet, and I would definitely like a chance to disprove it, but oh well.

No matter what it will always be imbalanced because each character has different physics. The point is the removal of these options would be bad to everyone even if others do have better options. It's removing a footsies option and etc.

 

[Ziem'sPit]

Eh....I really don't care. That's just Sakurai's opinion and he's leaving us to ours. I mean it's like he said: "If people want to play seriously 1v1, they should do that, and if people simply want to enjoy the game, they should do so." I like doing both so I'mma do both. I dunno bout you guys but this isn't ruining my New Years Eve.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Movement options, ledge mechanics, hitstun and combo mechanics, I can go on and on. This is just a sorry display of vision. I have the deepest respect for his game development ability, but the biggest disappointment at his vision.

That Wavedashing, but movement isn't a raw issue. Though I agree I wish it stuck around.

Outside of Wavedashing I don't see how a lot if this is really "more depth" when trumping pivoting customs larger cast all do affect the depth of the game in ways Melee doesn't do. Even then some aspects of Melee aren't real depth, l-Cancel.

Hitstun and combo are pretty good this time around and he actually gave a lot more back than he did in Brawl.

This is always something that confused me. Since if depth of options was the raw thing that made something.

Then why don't we all play tekken?

 

[PlateProp]

No more smash for you.

You're funny

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think once again we are misinterpreting what he is saying. Which is understandable, because first his words are recorded in text and then translated, and then finally we have to read it ourselves.

He seems to be saying that Smash isn't a very good competitive game because, for example, it doesn't have as many inputs or as high of a technical skill curve than other games... but wait, no he isn't saying that. First of all that makes no sense. We all know Smash Bros is a genius franchise that has so much depth and complexity but with much simpler and more intuitive inputs than traditional fighting games. So what is he saying?

When he's talking about serious gamers, hardcore games, and competitive fighting games, he's specifically referring to games that have a high technical requirement. When he's saying that you need skill, he's talking about technical skill. That's why when he talks about the kind of "competitive game" he does not want, he compares it to a sport, because they are hard to play physically. Not because he thinks depth and complexity (strategy, mindgames, etc.) are bad. If he did, he wouldn't compare it to sports but to chess or starcraft or something.

This isn't the first time he referred to technically challenging games as "competitive" games. In the past he's described such games as "maniac" and "hardcore" (the latter of which he uses here). When he says he can make a more hardcore game, and that he can make it fast and increase the inputs, he is alluding to Melee (intentionally or unintentionally). Therefore, he is NOT saying that Melee is a better competitive game, but rather the only conclusion you can make from what he's said is that Melee simply is more technically challenging.

I think when you look at it in this perspective, this initially confusing statement makes much more sense



Actually there are possible 2 interpretations of this (does anyone know what the japanese really means?), but they both support my interpretation.

1) How do you make something entertaining to spectators? Have the players do crazy techs, which would "downgrade" the game because he doesn't want it to be technically and physically demanding. He wants it to be easy to learn, impossible to master, but without a high technical skill floor too.

2) How do you make something more spectator friendly? You make things easier to see and understand, and that means removing advanced techniques, depth, and complexity. Surely removing those things would make a worse [competitive] game, and indeed he agrees that it would be a bad thing.

His next few words confirm that he's referring specifically to the unwanted physical aspect of the more technically challenging games.



I'm sure we can all agree on that. Easy to learn, impossible to master.

So no, he isn't saying Melee is a better competitive game than Smash 4, and he isn't saying that Smash 4 has no future as a competitive game. Replace his use of the word "competitive" (remember translating will lose connotations and twist meanings) with "technically difficult", and reread his words:

Smash 4 as a technically difficult game has no future if you are expecting it to be like those "hardcore" games that have really high technical skill requirements. He isn't saying anything against Smash 4's design and he isn't saying that Smash 4 was not made to be a good competitive game. He's talking specifically of the act of Smash 4 being played by people who desire a very technically demanding game, and that Smash 4 won't satisfy them. Hence, it has "no future" as a technically difficult game.

In the interview he says that he thinks it's good that Smash 4 can be played in so many different ways, which only supports that he is happy that people play Smash competitively. If you interpret his words so that he doesn't think Smash 4's competitive scene has a future, that interpretation would contradict this.


This is what I currently think, open to change.

Agreed, very well-made post

 

[smashbroskilla]

I agree with her... but I'm not a Sakurai fan.... U wot m80? Also if you are surprised she hasn't received warnings for blatant trolling, trust me you haven't seen other people that been on some certain Smash 4 threads >_>

You can agree with her all you want. That doesn't mean I'm going to refer to you as a child or that you need to pull your head out of your butt. No one wants to debate with anyone typing like that plus it creates clutter.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Riiiight. Bad design choice. Tripping. Alright. Nice. Everyone hated it. Now tell me what else besides that and L canceling.

Crouch Cancelling to punish someone for hitting you.

Spacies horrible character design.

Can't grab the ledge backwards just cause.

Battlefields awful ledges.

Character diversity in terms of design.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

You can agree with her all you want. That doesn't mean I'm going to refer to you as a child or that you need to pull your head out of your butt. No one wants to debate with anyone typing like that plus it creates clutter.

Like I said, if you have a problem with her, you haven't seen the worst of this site.... trust me, I know >_>

 

[Jellyfishn]

Alright I am going to be done in this thread, but I just wish that someone could change the title of the article. It's on the front page with a title that even the original poster on Reddit has changed.....

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

How are you still posting in this thread? Your profile says you're a 20 year old girl

And you are a 33 year old boy

Now lets all AT LEAST have a friendly debate with no name calling anymore. I'll stop my name calling.

 

[PokÉmblem]

Guys he has always been a casual at smash bros even though he created it, how has no one expected this?

 

[MagiusNecros]

I tend to ignore any PR this egocentric guy has to say. Mr. Ridley too big could be scaled down but dun want to and no more patches because buggy Bowsercide is what you get. Grump Grump

 

[Tino]

Meh, I don't give a **** about the "competitive" scene in the Smash community. That's his opinion right there and everyone should be respecting it instead of tossing around unnecessary flame wars about it. Really, all of y'all seriously need to stop overreacting and get over it.

 

[platomaker]

Removal of edgehogging coupled with floaty physics, generally good distance recoveries across the cast, and an auto snap ledge grab that can actually punish someone who tried to go deep for edgeguarding are my guess.

I do understand about the deep edgeguards as that does interfere (as it did in brawl) on SOME stages (generally stages that you can't go under won't suffer from this as much as say, Final D and smashville).

Edgehogging is elimintated but that's not for defensive purposes: jump on the ledge and whoever is on there will pop off....at the same angle as always...at the same speed as always... why are people complaining when the developer is giving you this super obvious ultimatum? Especially people who complain of defensive gameplay complaining about this. Am I the only one who sees what this is for? "Get off the ledge or Die" seems pretty NOT defensive to me. But hey, I'm in the minority in this notion it seems.

floaty physics = "#notmelee2008" in my eyes. The developer made this choice twice in a row. Does PM also have this problem of floatiness?

 

[RanserSSF4]

I think many have forgotten that you have SLHG mode in smash 4. it doesn't turn the game into melee 2.0. it just speeds up the game, buffs combos even more, buffs aggressive play, and buffs edgeguardiing by nerfing most recoveries.

It will be great alongside the main game itself as a side event, and who knows, it could become the new main ruleset in smash 4's competitive future. the only downside is that you still don't every movement option that was in melee, but it doesn't matter in SLHG!

 

[Vaidya]

Crouch Cancelling to punish someone for hitting you.

Spacies horrible character design.

Can't grab the ledge backwards just cause.

Battlefields awful ledges.

Character diversity in terms of design.

Wtf is "spacies"

Battlefield is one stage, and I never noticed anything bad.

You're a moron. Bad diversity? Pokemon Trainer, yeah really bad diversity. Samus transforming from a FS? Yep, horrible diversity indeed. Making the clones from Melee less cloney? Oh, the horror!!!

 

[platomaker]

No matter what it will always be imbalanced because each character has different physics. The point is the removal of these options would be bad to everyone even if others do have better options. It's removing a footsies option and etc.

Been a while since I've played melee, and to be honest, whenever I hear footsie I think more to street fighter 3 than melee so, can you go into a bit more detail in what is lost in the transition from melee to smash 4?

 

[Kempatsu]

I have no problem with anything he said. His approach is what makes this game amazing. The patches will likely continue anyway so it's all good in my eyes.

 

[ItsChon]

Then why don't we all play tekken?

Ignoring everything else you said. I just really hate that type of camera view. MK does it, SF does it, it's just boring. Super Smash's version is the best hands down. Even Brawl and Sm4sh.

 

[D.A. RAFA]

Other movement options such as dash dancing, techniques that speed up the game (l and z cancelling), both of which are present in the first two games. Another thing that I personally miss is the ability to play how I want to play without being at a disadvantage from the start. I'm a very aggressive player, so I don't do too well in the defense-oriented environments of Brawl or Smash 4. In Melee and 64, you can play your character however you want (in most match ups) and still do well if you know what you're doing.

Excuse me dude...Smash 4 is very much rush down. I don't know who you be facing or how you do versus camping characters but It's not that easy to camp in this game. BRAWL on the other hand was a very defensive game. Although MK put that all to bed w/ his broken moves. You're clearly not watching streams of Smash 4. So please...Stop speaking of things you know nothing about.

 

[platomaker]

Excuse me dude...Smash 4 is very much rush down. I don't know who you be facing or how you do versus camping characters but It's not that easy to camp in this game. BRAWL on the other hand was a very defensive game. Although MK put that all to bed w/ his broken moves. You're clearly not watching streams of Smash 4. So please...Stop speaking of things you know nothing about.

duck hunt dog.

 

[Zoa]

I do understand about the deep edgeguards as that does interfere (as it did in brawl) on SOME stages (generally stages that you can't go under won't suffer from this as much as say, Final D and smashville).

Edgehogging is elimintated but that's not for defensive purposes: jump on the ledge and whoever is on there will pop off....at the same angle as always...at the same speed as always... why are people complaining when the developer is giving you this super obvious ultimatum? Especially people who complain of defensive gameplay complaining about this. Am I the only one who sees what this is for? "Get off the ledge or Die" seems pretty NOT defensive to me. But hey, I'm in the minority in this notion it seems.

floaty physics = "#notmelee2008" in my eyes. The developer made this choice twice in a row. Does PM also have this problem of floatiness?

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. I'm no Melee player, so that's far from the issue. I'll break down my thoughts for you.

It's the culmination of the things I mentioned that make recovery that much more forgiving for the one recovering. If you're offstage, then you should be at a massive disadvantage because your options are limited, and your only goal should be to get back to the stage. The floaty physics actually allow you to use the knockback you've suffered to recover high. This wasn't the issue in other games because fall speed, gravity, etc. was higher. It also works in combination with lower hitstun to make gimps and semi spikes that less valuable.

The recoveries are generally okay to beat out because they're very linear most of the time. It's just that it removing the option of edgeguarding period, with an auto ledge snap feature present, make it that much more forgiving. Smash 4 is already very defensive. Removing edgeguarding without offering something as a substitute removed an offensive option.

 

[D.A. RAFA]

I don't fully agree, but I understand.

Best comment I've read all day. Thank you. Happy New Year to you sir.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. I'm no Melee player, so that's far from the issue. I'll break down my thoughts for you.

It's the culmination of the things I mentioned that make recovery that much more forgiving for the one recovering. If you're offstage, then you should be at a massive disadvantage because your options are limited, and your only goal should be to get back to the stage. The floaty physics actually allow you to use the knockback you've suffered to recover high. This wasn't the issue in other games because fall speed, gravity, etc. was higher. It also works in combination with lower hitstun to make gimps and semi spikes that less valuable.

The recoveries are generally okay to beat out because they're very linear most of the time. It's just that it removing the option of edgeguarding period, with an auto ledge snap feature present, make it that much more forgiving. Smash 4 is already very defensive. Removing edgeguarding without offering something as a substitute removed an offensive option.

COUGH *Smooth lander Heavy gravity* COUGH

 

[GangsterPuff]

To think there is still so many people licking his boots and worshiping him.

 

[Zoa]

COUGH *Smooth lander Heavy gravity* COUGH

Not everybody has that equipment, nor will the special modes be applicable in tournaments unless agreed upon.

 

[platomaker]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. I'm no Melee player, so that's far from the issue. I'll break down my thoughts for you.

It's the culmination of the things I mentioned that make recovery that much more forgiving for the one recovering. If you're offstage, then you should be at a massive disadvantage because your options are limited, and your only goal should be to get back to the stage. The floaty physics actually allow you to use the knockback you've suffered to recover high. This wasn't the issue in other games because fall speed, gravity, etc. was higher. It also works in combination with lower hitstun to make gimps and semi spikes that less valuable.

The recoveries are generally okay to beat out because they're very linear most of the time. It's just that it removing the option of edgeguarding period, with an auto ledge snap feature present, make it that much more forgiving. Smash 4 is already very defensive. Removing edgeguarding without offering something as a substitute removed an offensive option.

edgeguarding hasn't been removed at all, its just way more varied. Ask a megaman player. Spikes in this game have been neutered for the majority of players but they are still there and are often required in some matchups.
I'm sure you heard about people complaining that Diddy Kong is OP, yeah, just get him off stage and edgeguard as hard as possible. Its definitely possible and again, required in many matchups. That auto ledge snap was present in brawl too. People abused the ledge to no end by planking.

I'm telling you, they nerfed spikes simply because there is now a mechanism that pretty much dictates where an opponent will be if they try to abuse the ledge. The auto snap isn't a big deal, but if it is then CHOOSE another stage, one with walls running to the abyss.

 

[D.A. RAFA]

Sakurai is a washed-up designer who has lost sight of what is truly important.

He lacks the basic understanding that a game can be both deep and accessible. It is this kind of narrow-minded thinking that has destroyed the smash community and replaced it with separate sub-communities filled with cynicism.

Melee was fun at both a party and competitive level. it was easily approachable, but also extremely deep. The "online" argument is pointless with decent matchmaking options. Understanding that distinction is the single most important thing a designer should keep in mind. Ana ccessible game allows for new players to get into the game, but depth keeps them hooked. Depth and accessibility are not on a continuum. They are two entierly separate entities that can co-exist.

I used to respect Sakurai, he was someone whom I aspired to be like when I was younger. To see the personr esponsible for my favourite game of all time turn out like this... it's a hard pill to swallow.

Smash Bros. needs new blood, a designer capable of actually interacting and respecting its competitive community. I'm sorry Sakurai, but you are the bigger problem. You need to go.

No...YOU need to Go. lol

 

[RanserSSF4]

Not everybody has that equipment, nor will the special modes be applicable in tournaments unless agreed upon.

i know that but i'm just saying this mode just nerfs most recoveries. i do agree that recoveries are too good, but you get kills offstage if you know what to do. i do that all the time, and most of my kills from that!

 

[Zoa]

Been a while since I've played melee, and to be honest, whenever I hear footsie I think more to street fighter 3 than melee so, can you go into a bit more detail in what is lost in the transition from melee to smash 4?

I'm no active Melee player. I'm an active 64 and PM player, so I cannot go into MU knowledge very well. What I can tell you is this:

Wavedash offered the option to do anything out of it. It was a great movement tool for spacing, footsies, movement, etc. L-cancel sped the game up, but also offered aerial approaches and options that are safe when spaced properly over those that aren't L-cancelled. This gave more defensive and offensive footsie options in the form of movement and less lag on aerials.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think we're taking this out of context.. Especially when he mentions how if you want to play 1v1, you can.

Sakurai is talking about future entries, and how they will never become like SF or Tekken as far as input skill.

Smash is attractive because it is simple. That's all Sakurai means.

 

[Kymnosk]

Making a more competitive smash would be a much better marketing decision than some people think. Also Smash 4 is probably the worst casual entry in the serious. They shouldve not even done smash blast or events since the casuals that theyre meant for will only play them a maximum amount of 1 time. No subspace, no adventure mode, most of the stages are from brawl. Where did the 2 years of development time go into? Making two versions of the same game? A casual will only buy 1 anyway since dad argument (Oh you already have this game so why do you need it again)

I feel disapointed by this game from a casual perspective, all they did was add smash tour/run. I can't imagine if the next smash game would be more hardcore focused to be worse to a casual player. They can just add more "neutral ground" stuff that both sides would like. Something more useful than crawling though....

BTW Come on now, Project M is played casually by some

 

[Diamond DHD]

Nah, it would be lame Smash sells itself on the fact its Nintendo characters fighting.

You've been out of the loop for a while, huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGwdhC8OZg8

You da real MVP, 8-bit graphics are a bit overdone, but this looks cool.

 

[Zoa]

edgeguarding hasn't been removed at all, its just way more varied. Ask a megaman player. Spikes in this game have been neutered for the majority of players but they are still there and are often required in some matchups.
I'm sure you heard about people complaining that Diddy Kong is OP, yeah, just get him off stage and edgeguard as hard as possible. Its definitely possible and again, required in many matchups. That auto ledge snap was present in brawl too. People abused the ledge to no end by planking.

I'm telling you, they nerfed spikes simply because there is now a mechanism that pretty much dictates where an opponent will be if they try to abuse the ledge. The auto snap isn't a big deal, but if it is then CHOOSE another stage, one with walls running to the abyss.

I never did say it was removed. I said it's much more forgiving for the individual in question recovering. I'm personally not against the auto ledge snap or good distance recoveries so long as they're not too polarizing for the one trying to edgeguard. It's the addition of removing edgehogging without adding anything in return to prevent someone getting back to the stage. It removes an option period.

 

[D.A. RAFA]

Honestly doesn't make sense. Because it's not Melee? Is that why? WHO CARES?!

Melee's not even the first ****ing game in the series. Stop expecting Melee every time.

Don't pay any mind to that fool. He clearly doesn't know the definition of "competitive." He still thinks that a game that has more technical ability is more competitive. WRONG! It only makes a game more TECHNICAL. That is all. What makes a game more competitive than another?? NUMBERS! HOW MANY PPL TURN UP FOR A TOURNAMENT! THAT'S HOW YOU MEASURE WHAT GAME IS MORE COMPETITIVE. I'm holding back on insults sooooo hard right now.

 

[platomaker]

I'm no active Melee player. I'm an active 64 and PM player, so I cannot go into MU knowledge very well. What I can tell you is this:

Wavedash offered the option to do anything out of it. It was a great movement tool for spacing, footsies, movement, etc. L-cancel sped the game up, but also offered aerial approaches and options that are safe when spaced properly over those that aren't L-cancelled. This gave more defensive and offensive footsie options in the form of movement and less lag on aerials.

I know about wavedashing, I meant what else? PM sorta fills the gap though.

 

[LRodC]

Don't pay any mind to that fool. He clearly doesn't know the definition of "competitive." He still thinks that a game that has more technical ability is more competitive. WRONG! It only makes a game more TECHNICAL. That is all. What makes a game more competitive than another?? NUMBERS! HOW MANY PPL TURN UP FOR A TOURNAMENT! THAT'S HOW YOU MEASURE WHAT GAME IS MORE COMPETITIVE. I'm holding back on insults sooooo hard right now.

lol relax dude it's just a game, go outside