Samochan
Smash Master
xD The dude is ridiculous. How did he even get any chars on brawl if he didn't compete (aka try to win over) against cpu's? Or anything unlocked, for that matter.
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Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise
- Thread starter Gimpyfish62
- Start date
BananaHammock
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 6, 2006
- Messages
- 247
Ok, I've only read about 3 pages of this thread and I'm already fuming at how narrow-sighted some of the posters are. Here are some facts:
1. Tripping is one of the worst game mechanics ever implemented into a fighting game. (probably THE worst)
2. The game is slow, and there a very, very few ways to speed it up.
3. The game only seems balanced because it has only been out for 2 months.
4. There are VERY, VERY, VERY FEW combos (a common and borderline necessary staple to fighting games)
5. Leaving out tripping and adding L-cancelling, Wavedashing and some hit-stun would not have affected sales at all.
Tripping is awful. It's not fun, it doesn't add skill, it doesn't balance the game, it doesn't make it more competitive. It is annoying, frustrating, and makes me want to vomit. On very rare occasions it can be amusing, but I would trade those amusing times for a less stupid mechanic any day of the week.
L-cancelling added a level of skill to Melee that Brawl is quite simply missing out on. It didn't hurt the game, and it certainly didn't make it less fun. In my opinion, the most likely reason is that the developers of Brawl didn't want to take the time to balance the game with both L-cancelling AND hitstun added into the mix. So what did they do? The got rid of both. How hard is it to balance a game with neither L-cancelling or Hitsun???
Granted, there are 39 characters to be balancing, but as a consumer, am I wrong to ask for the effort of trying to balance a TECHNICAL game. Even if it didn't get balanced out that well, would that mean less people would buy it? No. Look at how many people bought Melee. I know for a fact that a large part of the melee competitive scene didn't give up playing it just because there were only 6ish really good characters.
I can understand wanting to get rid of Wavedashing. It took a level of control out of the developers hands. I would rather they had built the game around being able to do it, but of all the cuts, it's the one that hurts me the least. The problem I see ,however, is with the new airdodge system. It's ok on it's own, but if you put it in a game where you can pretty much use it to dodge any follow up attack (due to the lack of hit stun), and can use it multiple times before landing (adds so much skill to getting back on the ground [mashes R button]), and you've got something that's just plain ridiculous.
ATTENTION: We have little to no idea if Brawl is balanced or not. It's been out for 2 months people. Stop trying to claim that it is balanced. It's most likely not balanced at all. My own personal opinion is that Brawl will be more unbalanced than Melee, but that's only my own prediction. Remember, back when Melee first came out, everybody thought Link was really really good. Guess what, we were wrong. Wait for Brawl to grow a metagame before making ridiculous claims like "any character can win" or "it all depends on the skill of the player".
Sorry if anybody is offended at anything I said, but some people in this thread are just making me crazy.
1. Tripping is one of the worst game mechanics ever implemented into a fighting game. (probably THE worst)
2. The game is slow, and there a very, very few ways to speed it up.
3. The game only seems balanced because it has only been out for 2 months.
4. There are VERY, VERY, VERY FEW combos (a common and borderline necessary staple to fighting games)
5. Leaving out tripping and adding L-cancelling, Wavedashing and some hit-stun would not have affected sales at all.
Tripping is awful. It's not fun, it doesn't add skill, it doesn't balance the game, it doesn't make it more competitive. It is annoying, frustrating, and makes me want to vomit. On very rare occasions it can be amusing, but I would trade those amusing times for a less stupid mechanic any day of the week.
L-cancelling added a level of skill to Melee that Brawl is quite simply missing out on. It didn't hurt the game, and it certainly didn't make it less fun. In my opinion, the most likely reason is that the developers of Brawl didn't want to take the time to balance the game with both L-cancelling AND hitstun added into the mix. So what did they do? The got rid of both. How hard is it to balance a game with neither L-cancelling or Hitsun???
Granted, there are 39 characters to be balancing, but as a consumer, am I wrong to ask for the effort of trying to balance a TECHNICAL game. Even if it didn't get balanced out that well, would that mean less people would buy it? No. Look at how many people bought Melee. I know for a fact that a large part of the melee competitive scene didn't give up playing it just because there were only 6ish really good characters.
I can understand wanting to get rid of Wavedashing. It took a level of control out of the developers hands. I would rather they had built the game around being able to do it, but of all the cuts, it's the one that hurts me the least. The problem I see ,however, is with the new airdodge system. It's ok on it's own, but if you put it in a game where you can pretty much use it to dodge any follow up attack (due to the lack of hit stun), and can use it multiple times before landing (adds so much skill to getting back on the ground [mashes R button]), and you've got something that's just plain ridiculous.
ATTENTION: We have little to no idea if Brawl is balanced or not. It's been out for 2 months people. Stop trying to claim that it is balanced. It's most likely not balanced at all. My own personal opinion is that Brawl will be more unbalanced than Melee, but that's only my own prediction. Remember, back when Melee first came out, everybody thought Link was really really good. Guess what, we were wrong. Wait for Brawl to grow a metagame before making ridiculous claims like "any character can win" or "it all depends on the skill of the player".
Sorry if anybody is offended at anything I said, but some people in this thread are just making me crazy.
The Executive
Smash Lord
You had a great, fully approved diatribe going, fear4. Please don't ever put Brawl and metagame in the same sentence again.
Samochan
Smash Master
Don't be a jerk executive. His points are all good and brawl does indeed have it's own, unique metagame just like melee did, while it's still being on development. Even if the metagame is picking up a top tier char and camping with projectiles/using ranged quick attacks and shielding stuff.
Wikipedia: "Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. In other words, sometimes using out-of-game information to affect one's in-game decisions."
Metagame is a board term and is used in competitive pokemon all the time, while all they do is get good pokemons and battle within the game's limit. Brawl has more technical limits sure, but that does not mean it lacks metagame.
Again with the acting superior. Unless you're going to stop acting like you're superior, there's no reason for me to treat you with any respect.
Now, I am treating you with respect, but if you want to play that game I can play it as well. I am not "siding" with anyone either, I am on no one's "team", I have an opinion which happens to coincide with others'. You're not superior for not having an opinion, you're a robot. And unless you become self-aware and destroy all humans, that's not superior.
It's great that you like Melee more, I respect that. I'm not going to ask you why you like it more because if you want to play it, that's your business, and questioning your opinion is just...weird. Unless it's something nuts, which it's not, it's nuts of me to ask you to prove it. Honestly, I read the one post before your post about all of us being unable to read noticing that you posted it. I read all of your posts before that, I just didn't notice that you posted them.
I'm not getting angry at you, I'm sorry if you're interpreting it that way. I suppose that's the way the internet is, emotions are hard to express/interpret, but in any case, I'm not angry at you. I'm a little bewildered by you acting superior when there was really no reason for you to, but not angry.
I'll be happy to explain why I like Brawl better, but I don't know what you classify as arbitrary and idiotic, because apparently, a game being fun isn't a good reason for liking it.
I'm not arguing it's better, I'm arguing that I like it better. Really, whichever you like better is better. It doesn't matter what anyone else says.
Golem the Stern Father
Smash Champion
Brawl may not have as much depth as Melee, but Brawl still has strategy, just different and limited as much as Melee had. In terms of 'balance', it's a toss up for me. It seems that the possible low tiers of Brawl have a higher chance of defeating the possible high tier characters of Brawl. Sure, weapon spamming and spamming overpowering attacks are huge in Brawl, but we will find ways around it.
After all, the game has been out in the US for only 35 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes, and 32 seconds; But who's counting?
After all, the game has been out in the US for only 35 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes, and 32 seconds; But who's counting?
I'm Tyfighter, and I approve this message. :bigthumbu
Cue ****ing eff tee
If by "depth" you mean exploitable glitches, then yes.
Golem the Stern Father
Smash Champion
Well, more combo potential, more hitstun, edgeguarding, dash-dancing, faster-pase overall, and yes, more glitches. (I could go on, but you can find that all in previous posts)
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Please tell me you did not create an account just to say that... because if you did, I will personally stalk you, find where you live, and make your world a swirling maelstrom of pain and suffering from which there is no escape.
On the plus side... 420 posts. Yeah. <_< >_> <_< ... *pulls out lighter*
I'm not sure you understand what depth means.
Depth is defined as the underlying aspects of something, a concept for which the Smash Bros franchise was not intended for. There is no elaborate system of combos to master and perform. Everything in Smash Bros. is right out in the open, available for all.
Sakurai has succeeded in creating his dream, a party game where combatants fight each other. With that in mind, he has eliminated need for depth, and added in variety, a far more importance concept for the Smash Series. New Items, new Characters, new Stages, rebalanced mechanics, (not to mention the removal of exploitable, unintentional glitches), all contribute to fleshing out the experience of Smash Bros, rather than diminishing it.
The fact is, you can't add or take away depth from Smash Bros., as it was never there to begin with. You can only remove the delusions of depth these glitch exploiters have convinced themselves of.
If you paid attention to the OP, you'd have noticed that this is the idea the creators have had in mind from the start.
NES n00b
Smash Master
You have got to be kidding...... There was depth and it was removed. There were lots of things to master in Melee. You are the one who is delusional. When it takes more than a year to get good at the game, there must be some kind of depth. >_>
That's exactly it, though.
It doesn't.
Just because you think that it is true does not make it so.
TRE1
Smash Apprentice
alright, I'm not one for trying to debate these things on the boards, but would you mind specifying some of these "glitches" that were being exploited? Wavedashing was the main and few non character specific glitches, and generally thats the first thing that comes to everyones mind when they hear glitch, so I'll assume that is one of the things you mean. forgive me if I'm wrong in assuming this.
Just remind how much damage did wavedashing do? What about when you sweet spotted it? Oh, how about the knock back?
I'm not trying to mourn the exclusion of wavedashing, I understand why it was taken out, and it doesn't bother me that it was. My point is, you speak of melee as if were a complete failure because of all the techniques be they glitches(wavedashing) or otherwise(i.e. L-canceling). Did you not like playing melee?
P.S. Do yourself a favor, and stop being such a Sakurai groupie. You speak of him like he actually did everyone a favor by creating possibly one of the greatest disappointments in recent video game history.
Just remind how much damage did wavedashing do? What about when you sweet spotted it? Oh, how about the knock back?
I'm not trying to mourn the exclusion of wavedashing, I understand why it was taken out, and it doesn't bother me that it was. My point is, you speak of melee as if were a complete failure because of all the techniques be they glitches(wavedashing) or otherwise(i.e. L-canceling). Did you not like playing melee?
P.S. Do yourself a favor, and stop being such a Sakurai groupie. You speak of him like he actually did everyone a favor by creating possibly one of the greatest disappointments in recent video game history.
Jewbacabra
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2008
- Messages
- 44
Fallacies all around.
Look at any pro videos. Look at any of the wild **** you can do in Melee, and tell me there's not depth to the game.
You, sir, are either a troll, or someone who has no idea what the meaning of competitive depth is.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Jesus... that's kind of an overstatement, don't you think? Sure, Brawl disappoints in some areas, but Jesus, you'd think there were more disappointing games that Brawl.
Shakezoola
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2007
- Messages
- 37
Tourney*** spotted
you gotta be ****ing kidding me. I know you and everyone else came when they saw Snake in that trailer.
Don't kid yourself just cause this isnt Smash Bros Melee 2
Enough to cripple the game if used.
Don't start putting words in my mouth! I loved Melee, and you're convolutint the argument.
Opinion.
stringing combos by exploiting glitches =! depth
secret techniques that, while actually intended for gameplay, still takes some experimentation to grasp. That is depth. Sorry, once you've unlocked all characters and trophies to melee, the depth is gone. that is to say, it not like it doesn't have replay value or nothin'
secret techniques that, while actually intended for gameplay, still takes some experimentation to grasp. That is depth. Sorry, once you've unlocked all characters and trophies to melee, the depth is gone. that is to say, it not like it doesn't have replay value or nothin'
BladeofKeyZ
Smash Rookie
I agree, the game falls flat gameplay-wise after everything is seemingly accomplished. But hey, same could be said about every Nintendo game.
Please elaborate.
This does not contradict my argument. These are characters pushing the limited game mechanics to their limits, and I applaud them for them (except when those illicit glitches are abused and proclaimed as "advanced'). This engine in both concept and execution are intended to be simple and open.
Is my argument really so infallible that you have to either fabricate my ignorance or declare me a troll rather than prove me wrong?
Aryman
Smash Master
You guys get trolled too easily.
KiddyDong
Smash Cadet
I don't see why you even think Sakurai wants brawl to be competitve. Were you expecting him to do so? This is a PARTY game. It's just by chance that they put in so many factors (i.e glitches) that you people can easily exploit to make into a competitive game, take out the stuff that was intended for the game (i.e smashball/items), that the creator of the game who has created a very very good game, is out to destroy you tourney***s.
But all you do is whine, and whine, and whine everywhere about the obvious flaws (or "improvements, since last time I checked, eliminating glitches in programming is an improvement.) in brawl, where you fail to realize that all you were looking forward to in brawl was melee, just with more characters and better graphics. Then you realize that brawl is melee, and then you get mad at the developers for taking out the things that made the game competitve, and adding in things that make the game less competitive. When it was never intended to be one in the first place.
But all you do is whine, and whine, and whine everywhere about the obvious flaws (or "improvements, since last time I checked, eliminating glitches in programming is an improvement.) in brawl, where you fail to realize that all you were looking forward to in brawl was melee, just with more characters and better graphics. Then you realize that brawl is melee, and then you get mad at the developers for taking out the things that made the game competitve, and adding in things that make the game less competitive. When it was never intended to be one in the first place.
BladeofKeyZ
Smash Rookie
There isn't. Everything they are doing is exploitation. Isn't this established.
Melee's level of "competitive depth" falls upon your judgment. But don't kid yourself by saying that breaking an already broken game justifies calling it deep.
TRE1
Smash Apprentice
WHOA! yeah, your right...overstatement. I agree with you all on that, I was a little too hasty. I should have been more specific. Brawl is by no means a bad game. But from a comparative and competitive standpoint it fails. and yes this is my opinion, but oviously I'm not the only one who feels this way.
and yes my jaw hit the floor when I first saw snake, I wont deny that for one second. I'm just saying, with the amount of time (delays) they had to work with, you'd think they'd be able to make a game where such large masses of people are in one way or another disappointed for whatever reason. And no this doesnt mean i expected it to be perfect.
Katanas- I wasn't putting words in your mouth. That was a question sir.
and yes my jaw hit the floor when I first saw snake, I wont deny that for one second. I'm just saying, with the amount of time (delays) they had to work with, you'd think they'd be able to make a game where such large masses of people are in one way or another disappointed for whatever reason. And no this doesnt mean i expected it to be perfect.
Katanas- I wasn't putting words in your mouth. That was a question sir.
Smash series has always lacked depth... Competitive Melee tried to make the game look deeper than it actually was, but when it comes down to it, it's still a party game, gameplay-wise along with what was the developers' intention. Just compare Smash to real competitive fighting games, GG, SF, etc. The level of technical gameplay just doesn't compare.
BladeofKeyZ
Smash Rookie
KiddyDong
Smash Cadet
Well, it was never intended to be competitive. You people who wanted it to be competitive make a small portion of the brawl player base, so why should sakurai implement things into the physics of the actual game just to please 20-25% of the people who are going to buy the game.
Kabyk-Greenmyst
Smash Lord
I can't wait for a troll here to rip apart my post.
Hitstun makes combos, not glitches.
Brawl's LACK of Hitstun is going to make it non-competitive, not the LACK of "glitches." (I'm only saying 'glitches' because I'm not debating that right now. Maybe some other time)
Hitstun makes combos, not glitches.
Brawl's LACK of Hitstun is going to make it non-competitive, not the LACK of "glitches." (I'm only saying 'glitches' because I'm not debating that right now. Maybe some other time)
Aryman
Smash Master
Obviously, it is impossible for it to be both a party game and a fighting game. Your logic is iinfallible.
1/10
BladeofKeyZ
Smash Rookie
Plus with the Wii's wide-spread appeal, the general consensus was that Brawl is designed for a large audience. Including children.
Aryman
Smash Master
Catfish_Mike
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 70
ITT, smashboards gets trolled by 4chan.
http://zip.4chan.org/v/res/13499949.html
Everyone can go home now.
http://zip.4chan.org/v/res/13499949.html
Everyone can go home now.
Shakezoola
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2007
- Messages
- 37
so "competitive players" were disappointed at a party game.
I, too was disappointed at FFXII (that's how you saw 12, rite?) for not being a porn.
an extreme example, but you get it, I'm sure. Play how you want, but dont get surprised when it isnt what you wanted it to be.
payasofobia
Smash Champion
started good, then became obvius, next time try not to take lots of people to troll at the same time, it takes away credibility
TKD+ITA+Mar=
Smash Ace
I feel that Brawl is less deep then Melee, but that it could be made deeper without the use of glitches. If he is worried about people losing, isn't there a reason for handicaps?