Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Swamp Sensei]

Because Iwata has been hinting that if he is unable to turn around the Wii U's fortunes that he may step down.

Really? Do you have a link? I want to look into this.

How long has he been the president?

 

[Oasis_S]

I like how you can pair up the FE and Pokemon characters.

Chrom and Zoroark
Ike and Lucario
Roy and Mewtwo
...Marth and Jigglypuff

 

[ChronoBound]

Really? Do you have a link? I want to look into this.

How long has he been the president?

I don't have a link on hand, however, Iwata has been president since 2001/2002.

 

[Baskerville]

The whole "I buy Nintendo Consoles for Nintendo Games " is such a stupid excuse. And these Nintendo fans wonder why they aren't getting any 3rd party games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The whole "I buy Nintendo Consoles for Nintendo Games " is such a stupid excuse. And these Nintendo fans wonder why they aren't getting any 3rd party games.

Seems like a pretty good reason to me.

 

[ChronoBound]

The whole "I buy Nintendo Consoles for Nintendo Games " is such a stupid excuse. And these Nintendo fans wonder why they aren't getting any 3rd party games.

Well back during the GameCube generation, Sonic games sold better on the GCN than on the other systems, the Viewtiful Joe games sold better on the GCN, Soul Calibur II sold best on the GCN, and RE4's lifetime GameCube sales were competitive with the PS2's (and the Wii version was the best selling version of RE4 I think).

During the Wii generation, there were barely any multi-platform releases for it due to the massive power discrepancy between the Wii and the PS3/360.

 

[N3ON]

Really? Do you have a link? I want to look into this.

How long has he been the president?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=510925

Personally, I miss Yamauchi.
(Not that I knew who he was back then)

 

[Deleted member]

@ N3ON

The voice of reason has spoken!

Anyway, Chu's post really begs the question, do: more sales = a better game?

I mean, we've talked about what sales mean in regard to what the companies can do and how they might behave, but lets think for a second about the implications of that and ponder if that's what we, the fans really want.

The "Smash Bros Brawl is the best selling fighting game of all time" gets brought up a lot around here, but now I dare you to answer, is Brawl the BEST fighting game of all time?

Think about that for a second guys.

During the Wii generation, there were barely any multi-platform releases for it due to the massive power discrepancy between the Wii and the PS3/360.

An apparently it'll be the same this generation as well.

It seems Unreal 4 and Frostbite 3 won't be on the WiiU. No matter how you look at it, this is bad news for Nintendo as they don't have the same install base as with the Wii. Imo, expect another Gamecube scenario but with less multiplats.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/30/unreal-engine-4-not-designed-to-work-on-wii-u/
http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/29/4162584/frostbite-3-engine-doesnt-support-wii-u

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=510925

Personally, I miss Yamauchi.
(Not that I knew who he was back then)

I remember reading some similar rumors a while back. Personally I'm glad. Not that I dislike Iwata, but I think it'll be better for the company if they get some new management.

 

[FalKoopa]

is Brawl the BEST fighting game of all time?

To a casual player, this is the hardest question of all time to answer.

 

[ChronoBound]

Personally, I miss Yamauchi.
(Not that I knew who he was back then)

Yamauchi was pretty much just a ruthless businessman. He had very little understanding of video games too.

I do like this quote from him though:
"Those who play RPGs are depressed people who play alone in their dark rooms."

I think Arokowa (Yamauchi's son-in-law) and Howard Lincoln were far superior to Reggie though. They were able to make the Nintendo 64 sell on par with the Super Nintendo in North America, and fostered an exclusive Western development environment for the N64.

Look at the shape of Western development for Nintendo platforms since the N64. Most of Nintendo's Western first-party and second-party studios are gone. Nintendo Software Technology Corporation (one of Nintendo's two remaining major Western first party studios) does not handle major releases any more, and has pretty much just become the Mario vs. Donkey Kong studio. Retro Studios, although they make magnifiscent games, only is able to release two games per generation.

Monster Games and Next Level Games have become somewhat second-party studios to Nintendo though. Monster Games made Excite Truck, Excite Bots, Excite Bike: World Rally, Pilotwings Resort, and the upcoming Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D, while Next Level Games is responsible for Super Mario Strikers, Mario Strikers: Charged, Punch-Out Wii, and Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Mario & Sonic at Olympic Games is the best Olympic Game of all time.

Yep, I said it.

d(-*v*-)b

 

[N3ON]

I don't have a negative opinion of Brawl, like many here do, but I'll freely admit it's hardly the best fighting game of all time.

As a more general answer, sometimes quality effects sales (mostly through promotion or word of mouth), but more often than not it's brand recognition. Usually originally good games in a series caused the brand recognition, but eventually it gets to an inferior or stale point in the series, yet will continue to sell well.

On the other hand, there are many quality games that do not get the commercial reception they deserve, so no, it's hardly as black and white as "more sales = better game".

Yamauchi was pretty much just a ruthless businessman. He had very little understanding of video games too.

I know, Yamauchi himself wasn't really into games, I mostly meant Nintendo as a whole when Yamauchi was in charge. And, to be fair, I recognize that Iwata has done many things better as well, I just preferred Yamauchi's tenure, personally.

 

[Baskerville]

Pretty much what Manly just said. If Nintendo is actually trying to get these 3rd parties to support them, they need to have the hardware to rival the other companies. (But sadly we have to wait another 5 or 6 years for that to happen)

 

[Metal Overlord]

sales talk? ew

reminds me of all the dickriding stans in hip hop who bring up how their favorite artist sells better than everyone else

 

[Deleted member]

To a casual player, this is the hardest question of all time to answer.

That's a very difficult question for just about anyone to answer. There are many contenders for the spot Including Tekken (3 I think it was), Virtua Fighter, KoF98, and Guilty Gear XX Accent Core.

The real answer is that it's not, but mostly because that's a tough question to answer as it can be very subjective. It all depends on what the individual seeks out of the gaming experience. However, if we were to compare Brawl to Guilty Gear, and compare them AS FIGHTING GAMES. Guilty Gear comes out on top as the better game, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. Brawl would be the better party game in that regard.

Pic very much related:

Spoiler

Anyway, I await the upcoming ****storm. Should I get an umbrella?

 

[FalKoopa]

Mario & Sonic at Olympic Games is the best Olympic Game of all time.

2008 or 2012?

@Manly
The pic says it all.

 

[N3ON]

2008 or 2012?

Vancouver ftw. 2010.

 

[Baskerville]

I love watching Marvel, but hate playing it. With all the Footdives, Helm Breakers, Touch of Death combos etc. Lets not even get into Derp Factor, not as bad as tripping but it comes VERY close to being the worst mechanic in a Fighting Game period.

 

[ChronoBound]

An apparently it'll be the same this generation as well.

It seems Unreal 4 and Frostbite 3 won't be on the WiiU. No matter how you look at it, this is bad news for Nintendo as they don't have the same install base as with the Wii. Imo, expect another Gamecube scenario but with less multiplats.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/30/unreal-engine-4-not-designed-to-work-on-wii-u/
http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/29/4162584/frostbite-3-engine-doesnt-support-wii-u

I said this in this very topic when the PS4 was first announce that there was a great power discrepancy between the Wii U and PS4.

However, in regards to multiplatform games, I think the Wii U will get some multi-platform ports, but only for the few games left that are still being made for the 360/PS3. I think Western studios will abandon PS3/360 development after 2014 (aside from the yearly update sports titles), so that will be bad news for the Wii U. However, if the PS4 and next X-Box have a rough start, I could see Western studios continuing making games for the PS3/360/Wii U.

However, in Japan, I could see them making games for the PS3 and Wii U for a while since they generally have smaller studios.

 

[Deleted member]

I love watching Marvel, but hate playing it. With all the Footdives, Helm Breakers, Touch of Death combos etc. Lets not even get into Derp Factor, not as bad as tripping but it comes VERY close to being the worst mechanic in a Fighting Game period.

People in general hate reversal techniques. The Ultra Combos in SF4 weren't too well received by the competitive crowd though I personally felt they were a good addition.

I think Reversal mechanics can be good, if planned and balanced properly.

X-Factor obviously wasn't.

 

[ChronoBound]

I don't have a negative opinion of Brawl, like many here do, but I'll freely admit it's hardly the best fighting game of all time.
.

Its not because Melee is. Brawl is just the second best fighting game of all time.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I wouldn't say that Melee is the best fighting game ether due to (not surprisingly) suffers from balance problems. Also the clone thing being a bit of a pet peeve.

 

[Baskerville]

The Ultras as a whole were fine, they didn't feel like a comeback factor and you actually needed to have patience or bait out other opponents Ultra, which Marvel does completely bass ackwards, just pop dat X-Factor and let that **** rip.

 

[Metal Overlord]

To a casual player, this is the hardest question of all time to answer.

as a casual player myself, I wouldn't say that lol

besides melee, my favorites would definitely be KI, UMK3, Tekken 3/4 and SC2

and I suck at every single of them

 

[SmashChu]

@NE0N: Most of your post is missing the forest for the trees. Your trying to hard to look at little details and not the big picture of why a game sell well. I'm not going to talk much about the post since it's not worth it to go though every detail, but I'm going to point out examples where your idea strays. Again, the idea is that "The characters are the main reason why Smash is doing well." If this is true, that would mean the characters are the main reason video games sell. If the character is the main determinate of success, than I should see characters push products and not the game itself. So, for example, if the Nintendo characters push Smash, then likewise, I should see Mickey Mouse games sell better than Mario as Mickey Mouse is a more popular character.

Mickey Mouse games by sales(estimate)

As you can see, sales are kind of low. Mario games do far better. If characters push products, then why is Mickey Mouse games selling less than Mario games? What this mean is that the products itself is the reason something sells and not the game itself. A better example.

No Sonic games do that well anymore, compared to games with Mario in them. The Sonic and Sega games sell pretty similarly to regular Sonic games, and really the only thing that still causes the Sonic games to be successful is brand recognition. It's not surprising Sega crossovers don't do any better than Sonic games, Sonic (and his dumb friends) are really the only highly marketable one out of all those characters they use. But Sonic isn't in traditional fighters, plus his games are fairly accessible, so I don't quite know why he was brought up...

This prove my point. Sonic 1 sold about 4 million and Sonic 2 sold 6 (about). Yet, Sonic games aren't doing as well. If the character is the reason a product sells, then sales should be better. Sonic games are sold on all three major systems and PCs. No longer does a customer have to by a Sega system to get Sonic. Using this idea that characters sell products, then I would expect to see sales go up. Instead, sales go down. This means the reason for Sonic sales has very little to do with the character. Likewise, Mario Sunshine and Galazy sold less than 64, and 64 sold less than the originals. But NSMB sells more. Why is there such inconsistency. The character, Mario, is the same in all of those games. Mario sales estimates. Look at the inconsistency. If Mario is the reason people buy the product, why did Mario go from 40 million to 6 (Sunshine). Let's look at Mario Golf. It sold about 1.5 million. Why is it not selling as well as Mario Kart? Mario is on the box for both. So, by your logic, then the games should do about the same. Let's look at Golf games. The besting selling game is called "Golf." The next best selling ones are Hot Shots Golf. While Mario is up there, he is beaten out by a game with no memorable characters.

I'm not saying the style of gameplay doesn't contribute to the success of the game, the marketability of the characters just contribute more. Unlike Marvel, Smash appeals to the core audience of the characters included, gamers. People are most familiar with Spider-Man from his movies or his comics, that's why he would do better than Mario would in movie or comic book sales. People are most familiar with Mario from games, that's where his audience lies, which is why games with him (even if they include many other characters - as long as Mario is clearly promoted in the game) sell well. The same could apply to the other big names in Smash, but to a lesser extent. Mario got to that point through quality games, sure, and he still has quality games (among weaker ones), but now he can get by on brand recognition. When other characters like Link, Pikachu, Kirby, etc. are also included, that only aggregates more audiences together into the same interest. By now the Smash name itself also has brand recognition, which it got partially through the gameplay, yeah, of course, but the thing that caused the majority of the interest in Smash in the first place were the characters included in it, that much is obvious.

Here is why what your saying is wrong. What you are saying is Marketing is the reason why products sell. As an up and coming investor, this makes me laugh. Marketing doesn't sell products. Products sell themselves. Given, it's easier to sell a products with better marketing because you get the name out. But if your selling a bad products, no amount of marketing in the world can save you. This is why sales are inconsistent. The reason why Smash does well is because the product is strong. It is easy to get into in a genre that focuses on more difficult gameplay. Go read the Blue Ocean Strategy.

That's not entirely true. Most series have fluctuated. The second Zelda game on a system never sells as well as the first. Overtime, starting with OoT, MM sold worse, then WW sold better than MM, TP did better than WW (though not the Gamecube version), and SS didn't do as well as TP. The only consistency is that the first Zelda on the system sells better (as do most series) because it has a longer time on the market and usually is on the market when the console is at its peak, not afterwards. Corruption did better than Echoes, there has been no consistent decline in Metroid either. Awakening has been the best selling FE in a long time, AC is doing ridiculously in Japan, better than ever before, Galaxy 1 & 2 both sold better than Sunshine (Galaxy isn't in the same series as Brawl, they're not comparable), DKCR did better than all previous DK games since the original DKC, Kirby's as profitable as it ever was, very few major Nintendo series are in chronic unavoidable decline. The next Zelda (not the WW remake) and Metroid games will almost definitely sell better than SS and Other M, as long as the Wii U has at least a decent player base, and the games arrive in the next few years, because the system also matters.

This paragraph is where your argument falls apart. There are so many consistent elements that can't be explained in your current context. The other question I have is how is any of these relevant. Are you trying to say your argument is right because Nintendo series are not in decline (which they are. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that old sales are higher than new ones). Even then, how does this help you? What point are you trying to get across? This is probably why you shouldn't split up a paragraph into 4-5 points.

The characters are obviously moving the game. They aren't the only thing moving the game, that much is true, the gameplay does play not an insignificant part, but the majority is the characters. Do you really mean to say that if Smash Bros had only ever had original fighters, it would be in the same position it is today? That's just totally unrealistic.

There is no way to prove this, so what your saying is faulty anyway.

Smash isn't the only accessible game series in the world, yet it sells better than 90% of other "accessible" series, if not more. Plus, there are many "accessible" game series that sell very poorly, even if they are easy to understand and play proficiently. How are people even going to be drawn to accessibility in a game they haven't played before? They know Mario, they know Link, they know Pikachu, they know some other character, they like those games, they buy Smash. Sure that doesn't apply to every person who's bought Smash, but the majority.

What are these other "accessible" games. You never say.

Another thing: You don't give any evidence on why you are right. If what you are saying is true, then it shouldn't be hard to get some facts.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing.

If we compare Melee to Guilty Gear for example, GG still comes out on top despite Melee's unique and addicting mechanics. GG is a much more polished game, with a more diverse roster. No two characters in GG are alike and it's very well balanced, where lower tier characters can fight toe to toe with top tier characters if the player is good and knows their character enough.

Roy getting owned by Fox wouldn't happen in GG.

Whereas Melee has the clone issues as well as a very poorly balanced roster, albeit still better balanced than Brawl's imo. Brawl is a balancing nightmare, and I don't even mean Meta Knight.

In Melee's defense, GG is a competitively focused game which had 3 series installments, each with around 2-3 polished remakes to get it right. Smash Bros on the other hand has less direction and there are no updates to the game.

If Melee had the same direction, focus and effort put into making it a polished game it COULD stand as the best.

For the time being I'd put it a couple notches below the likes of GG, and KoF98. Still a great game, and a great competitive game, but not the best.

Brawl on the other hand. While a good game in it's own regard. And a very fun party/fighting game all on it's own. Doesn't come close to being the best. At least to me, it lack the polish and focus that even Melee managed to get right.

 

[Banjodorf]

I really don't think the two games are comparable due to not just mechanics, but the feel and the structure. Melee might be a fighting game, but can also feel like a party game. Who knows, their intent may be to make it a party game, with competitive undertones in Melee's case and possibly Smash 4's case.

I really don't think two can be compared, and it doesn't really make sense to me to do a rigorous analysis of two games that could never even work properly up next to one another, or to really even say Melee/Brawl is "best fighting game of all time" because that's just going to lead to a mess.

 

[Baskerville]

ArcSys games are usually very well balanced. Same goes for SNK.

 

[Deleted member]

let that **** rip.

We talking about Beyblade again?


Hahahaha, nah but I agree entirely with everything else you said. I think Ultras were a bit too powerful for a turnaround move.

I never played much of MvC3, how DOES the X-factor work exactly? Is it like Alpha 3's Bism, where you get lagless combos?

@NE0N: Most of your post is missing the forest for the trees. Your trying to hard to look at little details and not the big picture of why a game sell well.

I'm sorry bro, but N3ON's post was quite possibly the most rational post I've seen posted in this thread in the longest time. I fear that you simply can't accept that you might be wrong on something and thus fail to understand what the other person may be trying to tell you.

Anyway, I'm not gonna get into this discussion, but can we please stop this sales talk? It's getting very dry, and overall, sales are irrelevant in regard to the discussion of a roster.

I really don't think the two games are comparable due to not just mechanics, but the feel and the structure. Melee might be a fighting game, but can also feel like a party game. Who knows, their intent may be to make it a party game, with competitive undertones in Melee's case and possibly Smash 4's case.

I really don't think two can be compared, and it doesn't really make sense to me to do a rigorous analysis of two games that could never even work properly up next to one another, or to really even say Melee/Brawl is "best fighting game of all time" because that's just going to lead to a mess.

I agree entirely, hence one of my previous posts saying the same thing. I was merely saying how I felt about the two in contrast with each other.

 

[FalKoopa]

SmashChu, calm down. Seriously, from where do you get the time and patience to write so much? lol.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's a very difficult question for just about anyone to answer. There are many contenders for the spot Including Tekken (3 I think it was), Virtua Fighter, KoF98, and Guilty Gear XX Accent Core.

The real answer is that it's not, but mostly because that's a tough question to answer as it can be very subjective. It all depends on what the individual seeks out of the gaming experience. However, if we were to compare Brawl to Guilty Gear, and compare them AS FIGHTING GAMES. Guilty Gear comes out on top as the better game, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. Brawl would be the better party game in that regard.

Pic very much related:

Spoiler

Anyway, I await the upcoming ****storm. Should I get an umbrella?

Tekken 3 was always the biggest game in terms of popularity, though Tekken Tag 2 might be given it a run for its money. It also helps that Tag 1 was one of the more popular games in the series.

When it comes to fighting game preferences, I think you're right that it depends on what the player is looking for. However, the options not preferred by a player aren't necessarily bad. I can see the appeal of King of Fighters, but I have a difficult time getting into it (****ty netcode doesn't help at all).

Actually, here's Marvel and Brawl:

Spoiler

Marvel:

Brawl:

I said this in this very topic when the PS4 was first announce that there was a great power discrepancy between the Wii U and PS4.

However, in regards to multiplatform games, I think the Wii U will get some multi-platform ports, but only for the few games left that are still being made for the 360/PS3. I think Western studios will abandon PS3/360 development after 2014 (aside from the yearly update sports titles), so that will be bad news for the Wii U. However, if the PS4 and next X-Box have a rough start, I could see Western studios continuing making games for the PS3/360/Wii U.

However, in Japan, I could see them making games for the PS3 and Wii U for a while since they generally have smaller studios.

What was the power discrepancy between the PS2 and Gamecube?

People in general hate reversal techniques. The Ultra Combos in SF4 weren't too well received by the competitive crowd though I personally felt they were a good addition.

I think Reversal mechanics can be good, if planned and balanced properly.

X-Factor obviously wasn't.

Reversal isn't the word I'd use here. Reversals typically refer to counter moves like Aoi's counters.

 

[FlareHabanero]

ArcSys games are usually very well balanced.

Which is why I personally wanted to see ArcSys to work on Super Smash Bros. instead of Namco.

 

[ChronoBound]

I think Melee is better than most other fighting games because it has an equal appeal to casual fans and hardcore fans. Most of these fighting games mentioned (King of Fighters, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear) only appeal to a specific minority of gamers, whereas the Smash Bros. series (and maybe Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Marvel vs. Capcom) attempt to reach out to a much broader market.

Melee as a game appeals not only to people that play fighting games, but also people who have never even touched one in their life.

However, I do agree the balance for Melee left much to be desired (its my hope that someday a HD re-release will happen with Melee, with a lot of re-balancing).

As for the complaints about clones, I personally liked them. Arguably, you might argue someone like Donkey Kong Jr. (a representative for arcade DK) would have been a better clone choice than Dr. Mario (whom many casuals did not think was different at all from Mario aside from throwing pills). I still liked Doc though, and preferred him over regular Mario.

 

[yani]

Game Informer posted a little news article about what Grant said about Banjo Threeie on Wii-U. http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...er-wishes-for-new-banjo-kazooie-on-wii-u.aspx

Nice to see it getting some attention.

 

[Baskerville]

X-Factor has 3 levels and the level is dependant how many characters are active in your team. Every time a character on your team dies, the damage, speed & activeness is raised, on top of that you recover red health quicker and you don't suffer from chip damage throughout the entire thing.

3 characters (10 seconds)
2 characters (15 seconds)
1 character (20 seconds)

 

[Big-Cat]

I think Melee is better than most other fighting games because it has an equal appeal to casual fans and hardcore fans. Most of these fighting games mentioned (King of Fighters, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear) only appeal to a specific minority of gamers, whereas the Smash Bros. series (and maybe Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Marvel vs. Capcom) attempt to reach out to a much broader market.

Except we're not talking about demographic appeals here. We're looking at the games in regards to how well designed they are.

 

[N3ON]

It almost feels surreal that I have to argue over whether having Mario in a game helps sell that game...

I'll respond later SmashChu, don't have enough time now.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Melee is better than most other fighting games because it has an equal appeal to casual fans and hardcore fans. Most of these fighting games mentioned (King of Fighters, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear) only appeal to a specific minority of gamers, whereas the Smash Bros. series (and maybe Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Marvel vs. Capcom) attempt to reach out to a much broader market.

Melee as a game appeals not only to people that play fighting games, but also people who have never even touched one in their life.

That's when you look for the "Best Fighting Game of All-Time" you aren't gonna judge it by mass appeal, because otherwise Call of Duty is better than Unreal Tournament or Doom 2. Which I'm sure we can all agree isn't true in the slightest. You are instead you go by overall polish and how much the game is engineered toward being a good Fighting Game.

That whole debate is mostly subjective so w/e. All I can say that I feel Guilty Gear is a better fighter than Melee, though I technically hold Melee in higher preference to GG, simply because I grew up with Melee.

I do a agree that a Melee HD remake would be GLORIOUS. **** WW HD, give me Smash Melee HD and F-Zero GX HD, with a good Netcode and online play like they did for Guilty Gear with #R.

Which is why I personally wanted to see ArcSys to work on Super Smash Bros. instead of Namco.

That's my wet dream bro, don't get my hopes up.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I don't understand how people could like the clones in Melee personally, considering it's lazy character design.

 

[Deleted member]

Game Informer posted a little news article about what Grant said about Banjo Threeie on Wii-U. http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...er-wishes-for-new-banjo-kazooie-on-wii-u.aspx

Nice to see it getting some attention.

Hahahaha!!

Did they really make an article talking about a Game Grumps episode?

Anyway, I watched that last week, it was a pretty good show. Grant's a cool guy. Anyway, I'm not sure if this is news for any of you, but some of the Ex-Rare staff, Grant included are getting together to work on the spiritual successor to Banjo. That's why Grant made that comment on Game Grumps. I was actually curious as to why Jon and Ego didn't ask about that...

X-Factor has 3 levels and the level is dependant how many characters are active in your team. Every time a character on your team dies, the damage, speed & activeness is raised, on top of that you recover red health quicker and you don't suffer from chip damage throughout the entire thing.

3 characters (10 seconds)
2 characters (15 seconds)
1 character (20 seconds)

That's ****ing bull****! Who thought that up? Recovering Health? Really?