I like this. It's risky and creative. Some decisions are questionable, but it's unlike most rosters. 7/10
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Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)
- Thread starter Xiivi
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@Reyson: Because replacement is not the right word. If something is removed late in the game for time, it was not "replaced" with something else that was added earlier if BOTH things were intended to be in the game in the first place.
Take Street Fighter 4 for example. Now, first, let's remember that it's supposed to take place before 3, so ignore that most of those characters aren't it in. Go back to 2.
Everyone that was in Street Fighter 2 as of the most updated version of that game came back for Street Fighter 4, except for two: T. Hawk and Dee Jay. They were unfinished.
There were also newer characters as well, including El Fuerte, a Mexican luchador, and Rufus, an obese martial artist. Why do I bring these two up? Because, like Lucario and Ike, they could have been falsely claimed as replacements.
T. Hawk, despite being Native American, was typically refered to by fans as a Mexican wrestler. So, when he's out of the game, while a REAL Mexican wrestler comes in...do the math.
Rufus' original design was that of a skinny black man who had a breakdance style of fighting, quite comparable to Dee Jay's rhythm dancing style. So despite the final outcome of Rufus being much different, the fact he was initially quite similar to Dee Jay could lead into speculation that he was to replace him.
However, Super Street Fighter 4 came in, and brought in the two unfinished characters, as well as some more new fighters, proving that they weren't replaced. Same is likely to happen in Smash 4 with Mewtwo and Roy.
@ManBearPig: Sakurai didn't even THINK of Uprising when Pit was added into Brawl, so no, three of his characters were NOT added; only two. Also, Pit, as well as Palutena and Medusa aren't even his characters anyway! He didn't make them. Gunpei Yokoi did.
Take Street Fighter 4 for example. Now, first, let's remember that it's supposed to take place before 3, so ignore that most of those characters aren't it in. Go back to 2.
Everyone that was in Street Fighter 2 as of the most updated version of that game came back for Street Fighter 4, except for two: T. Hawk and Dee Jay. They were unfinished.
There were also newer characters as well, including El Fuerte, a Mexican luchador, and Rufus, an obese martial artist. Why do I bring these two up? Because, like Lucario and Ike, they could have been falsely claimed as replacements.
T. Hawk, despite being Native American, was typically refered to by fans as a Mexican wrestler. So, when he's out of the game, while a REAL Mexican wrestler comes in...do the math.
Rufus' original design was that of a skinny black man who had a breakdance style of fighting, quite comparable to Dee Jay's rhythm dancing style. So despite the final outcome of Rufus being much different, the fact he was initially quite similar to Dee Jay could lead into speculation that he was to replace him.
However, Super Street Fighter 4 came in, and brought in the two unfinished characters, as well as some more new fighters, proving that they weren't replaced. Same is likely to happen in Smash 4 with Mewtwo and Roy.
@ManBearPig: Sakurai didn't even THINK of Uprising when Pit was added into Brawl, so no, three of his characters were NOT added; only two. Also, Pit, as well as Palutena and Medusa aren't even his characters anyway! He didn't make them. Gunpei Yokoi did.
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
Really what it comes down to is how you interpret the word "replace" in the context of Smash. Obviously, since Mewtwo and Roy were planned to appear alongside Lucario and Ike, one could argue that they were not replaced.
You could also think about it this way... Lucario and Ike were higher priority than Mewtwo or Roy and so appeared in their respective series instead of Mewtwo and Roy. Of course all were planned. Why wouldn't you want all characters to return (Golden, you've already stated why Young Link and Pichu were most likely not among the cut characters that were also planned for Brawl)? If you can get all to return, great, so plan for it, but if time is short and you have to decide between introducing a newcomer (such as Lucario/Pokemon Trainer or Ike) over a veteran (such as Mewtwo or Roy), you may need to pick one over the other, which is exactly what happened. Roy is not on the roster. Mewtwo is not on the roster. Ike and Lucario are instead. You could say that they were, in the end, replaced, although unintentionally, which is correct.
...
I don't see why such a big fuss is made over the word "replace" anyway. It's not like it matters. The only time when it does is when people believe that Lucario will be replaced by Zoroark or Ike replaced by Krom because the newer generations need to be represented. This is completely false. As long as you don't believe this, and as long as you know that Lucario and Ike replacing Mewtwo and Roy in Brawl was unintentional, you can use the word "replace" as much as you damn well please.
That's my take on the silly subject.
You could also think about it this way... Lucario and Ike were higher priority than Mewtwo or Roy and so appeared in their respective series instead of Mewtwo and Roy. Of course all were planned. Why wouldn't you want all characters to return (Golden, you've already stated why Young Link and Pichu were most likely not among the cut characters that were also planned for Brawl)? If you can get all to return, great, so plan for it, but if time is short and you have to decide between introducing a newcomer (such as Lucario/Pokemon Trainer or Ike) over a veteran (such as Mewtwo or Roy), you may need to pick one over the other, which is exactly what happened. Roy is not on the roster. Mewtwo is not on the roster. Ike and Lucario are instead. You could say that they were, in the end, replaced, although unintentionally, which is correct.
...
I don't see why such a big fuss is made over the word "replace" anyway. It's not like it matters. The only time when it does is when people believe that Lucario will be replaced by Zoroark or Ike replaced by Krom because the newer generations need to be represented. This is completely false. As long as you don't believe this, and as long as you know that Lucario and Ike replacing Mewtwo and Roy in Brawl was unintentional, you can use the word "replace" as much as you damn well please.
That's my take on the silly subject.
JPW
Smash Ace
i've been actually thinking seeing as Nintendo will be pushing for DLC this time for the Wii U generation what are the chances they'll try to release Smash 4 by the end of next year and give us characters and extra via DLC.
Yeah Nintendo have their 6 months and there's some great stuff on the horizon for Wii U. But Nintendo's always been guilty of losing the hype and appeal due to long droughts..... So they need a big game and they love having big games ready to go at November. Now Smash Bros is a sure fire hit and would do the Wii U very well to have it out earlier in the Wii U's lifespan than later. So would Nintendo push Sakurai to give us something half done. And then tons of DLC for the next 6 months. So we can feel like we weren't robbed and the Wii U is strong.
Now Pikmin Wii U could be a November 2013 release but is it enough to keep the Wii U going. Unless Nintendo have a Mario, Pokemon or Zelda game up their sleeve the Wii U could be in trouble.
Of course there is one other possibility a Mario Kart Wii U, or Mario and Sonic Spinoff would be a quick fix.
But i'm really thinking could they rush a Smash Bros. release to save the Console? Of course there's also a chance of 3rd parties saving it.....
Let me know if this belongs in the other thread i can't tell the difference between the two half the time lol.
Yeah Nintendo have their 6 months and there's some great stuff on the horizon for Wii U. But Nintendo's always been guilty of losing the hype and appeal due to long droughts..... So they need a big game and they love having big games ready to go at November. Now Smash Bros is a sure fire hit and would do the Wii U very well to have it out earlier in the Wii U's lifespan than later. So would Nintendo push Sakurai to give us something half done. And then tons of DLC for the next 6 months. So we can feel like we weren't robbed and the Wii U is strong.
Now Pikmin Wii U could be a November 2013 release but is it enough to keep the Wii U going. Unless Nintendo have a Mario, Pokemon or Zelda game up their sleeve the Wii U could be in trouble.
Of course there is one other possibility a Mario Kart Wii U, or Mario and Sonic Spinoff would be a quick fix.
But i'm really thinking could they rush a Smash Bros. release to save the Console? Of course there's also a chance of 3rd parties saving it.....
Let me know if this belongs in the other thread i can't tell the difference between the two half the time lol.
D
Deleted member
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@Spyder: Except that's not what happened either.
You are acting as though Sakurai WILLINGLY CHOSE to put in Ike and Lucario at their expense.
As if Ike and Lucario were just as unfinished as they were and he had to decide between them near the end, when this is not true.
No, Ike and Lucario were already finished before the time issues arose. Their addition has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Mewtwo's and Roy's removal.
So again, to use the word "replace" or try to stretch the meaning of the word as you did is incorrect. It's next to impossible to "unintentionally" replace something.
Situation: Mewtwo and Roy are not in the game. Lucario and Ike are in the game.
Logical solution: Mewtwo and Roy are not in the game. Lucario and Ike are in the game. Period.
Illogical solution: Mewtwo and Roy were replaced by Lucario and Ike because like, they have very miniscule similarities which other existing characters totally don't have amongst themselves.
You are acting as though Sakurai WILLINGLY CHOSE to put in Ike and Lucario at their expense.
As if Ike and Lucario were just as unfinished as they were and he had to decide between them near the end, when this is not true.
No, Ike and Lucario were already finished before the time issues arose. Their addition has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Mewtwo's and Roy's removal.
So again, to use the word "replace" or try to stretch the meaning of the word as you did is incorrect. It's next to impossible to "unintentionally" replace something.
Situation: Mewtwo and Roy are not in the game. Lucario and Ike are in the game.
Logical solution: Mewtwo and Roy are not in the game. Lucario and Ike are in the game. Period.
Illogical solution: Mewtwo and Roy were replaced by Lucario and Ike because like, they have very miniscule similarities which other existing characters totally don't have amongst themselves.
3Bismyname
Smash Champion
IDK i think the Wii U has an alright line up so far. Epic Mickey 2, New Super Mario Bros, Rabbids Land, Scribblenauts Unlimited, and of course Nintendo Land are all exclusives that im sure are gonna do pretty well at the Wii Us launch. I think those among all their other games coming with the Wii U launch will keep fans satisfied for a while.
And i'm sure they're already planning a new Mario Kart for the Wii U.
and isnt Pikmin 3 planned for the spring.
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Meh, I really dislike the higher priority argument, as it's really only assuming that they were higher up in Sakurai's eyes. For all we know it could have been a mere coincidence that they were finished first, maybe there was some problem in implementing them like there was Dixie? It also doesn't give a reason for their high priority, hence all the flame wars this topic always starts.
All we know is that they weren't replaced in the traditional sense because of the time factor and the leftover data, anything beyond that is anyone's guess.
As a fan of all 4 of those characters and as a believer that there'll be no cuts I find the word "replace" offensive.
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
@ Golden and Tryphen
But wouldn't a character being finished first logically indicate higher priority in Sakurai's opinion? When you have a deadline and a lot to finish before that deadline, you need to make some decisions, like what needs to be in and what does not. That's prioritizing. We don't need a specific reason why they would be higher priority, because its Sakurai making these decisions (although I would guess that it is because four of the five cut characters were late additions in Melee, hardly unique and not terribly popular anyway. In Mewtwo's case, maybe Sakurai noted Lucario's popularity and liked the idea of the Pokemon Trainer, making them both more important than Mewtwo in Sakurai's eyes. Just guesses). I also doubt the technical difficulties thing... I can understand why Dixie could bring up some difficulties, but characters like Mewtwo and Roy seem unlikely to have any major technical difficulties, and if they did, the team would probably want to work around those before finishing other characters had they been higher priority, which they obviously weren't.
...
Basically, I myself don't use the word replace, I'm only explaining why I can understand when some people use that term, as long as they're using it correctly. And again...
I don't see why such a big fuss is made over the word "replace" anyway. It's not like it matters. The only time when it does is when people believe that Lucario will be replaced by Zoroark or Ike replaced by Krom because the newer generations need to be represented. This is completely false. As long as you don't believe this, and as long as you know that Lucario and Ike "replacing" Mewtwo and Roy in Brawl was unintentional (if you really have such a big issue with the word "replace", you can read this differently as "as long as you know that Mewtwo and Roy being cut in Brawl was unintentional), you can use the word "replace" as much as you damn well please.
But wouldn't a character being finished first logically indicate higher priority in Sakurai's opinion? When you have a deadline and a lot to finish before that deadline, you need to make some decisions, like what needs to be in and what does not. That's prioritizing. We don't need a specific reason why they would be higher priority, because its Sakurai making these decisions (although I would guess that it is because four of the five cut characters were late additions in Melee, hardly unique and not terribly popular anyway. In Mewtwo's case, maybe Sakurai noted Lucario's popularity and liked the idea of the Pokemon Trainer, making them both more important than Mewtwo in Sakurai's eyes. Just guesses). I also doubt the technical difficulties thing... I can understand why Dixie could bring up some difficulties, but characters like Mewtwo and Roy seem unlikely to have any major technical difficulties, and if they did, the team would probably want to work around those before finishing other characters had they been higher priority, which they obviously weren't.
I don't quite recall myself or anyone in this particular debate using this argument, so I don't see the point in bringing it up...Golden said:
...
Basically, I myself don't use the word replace, I'm only explaining why I can understand when some people use that term, as long as they're using it correctly. And again...
I don't see why such a big fuss is made over the word "replace" anyway. It's not like it matters. The only time when it does is when people believe that Lucario will be replaced by Zoroark or Ike replaced by Krom because the newer generations need to be represented. This is completely false. As long as you don't believe this, and as long as you know that Lucario and Ike "replacing" Mewtwo and Roy in Brawl was unintentional (if you really have such a big issue with the word "replace", you can read this differently as "as long as you know that Mewtwo and Roy being cut in Brawl was unintentional), you can use the word "replace" as much as you damn well please.
evilsmashbrosfan
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Hehe,here`s a bunch of characters that i think will NEVER be playable in a Smash Bros game.Just be aware that you may not be happy with what i`m saying;
-King K.Rool;the majority of his fans are overestimating his importance.Donkey Kong has several foes;Mario,those things from DKCR,heck those many identities of K.Rool could almost seem like separate characters.Basically,he`s just like Krystal from Star Fox;a random nintendo character.
-Megaman;Capcom aren`t even THAT interested in making Megaman`s fans happy so who would think that they`d even push for him to be playable in Smash Bros.Heck,he might as well be a joke character to insert randomly like Street Fighter x Tekken
-The majority of assists trophies;most of the time those trophies represent the C-D corner of Nintendo or the C-D corner of their big franchises.Isaac and Little Mac are probably the only ones that could work as a good,unique character and even then,the former hasn`t been relevant since the third Golden Sun game.
-Takamaru;He`s already ressurected,Sakurai might as well pick other retro characters so he can re-invent them.
-Zoroark;his unique ability makes him...take on the apparence of other Pokemons.I have nothing else to say about him.
-Bowser Jr;If you want to play as Shadow Mario that badly,they can simply make it an alternate costume for Mario.beyond that,Mario is already super-crowded and i doubt the franchise will get more than 3-4 Mario characters.
-Pacman;He can punch,kick,roll and somehow could have a ground-pound attack...If you through Sonic`s attacks were repetitive,then just imagine how boring Pacman would be.Any other Namco characters could make for a more interesting playable characters than him.
Also,the importance of the characters doesn`t mean shiz at the end because if Sonic ended up playable in Brawl it wasn`t because he`s Sega mascot but because people wanted him badly.Most characters from third-parties can easily be imagined with a moveset,the ones that ends up being added simply makes sense when they`re added,and certaintly NOT before.
-King K.Rool;the majority of his fans are overestimating his importance.Donkey Kong has several foes;Mario,those things from DKCR,heck those many identities of K.Rool could almost seem like separate characters.Basically,he`s just like Krystal from Star Fox;a random nintendo character.
-Megaman;Capcom aren`t even THAT interested in making Megaman`s fans happy so who would think that they`d even push for him to be playable in Smash Bros.Heck,he might as well be a joke character to insert randomly like Street Fighter x Tekken
-The majority of assists trophies;most of the time those trophies represent the C-D corner of Nintendo or the C-D corner of their big franchises.Isaac and Little Mac are probably the only ones that could work as a good,unique character and even then,the former hasn`t been relevant since the third Golden Sun game.
-Takamaru;He`s already ressurected,Sakurai might as well pick other retro characters so he can re-invent them.
-Zoroark;his unique ability makes him...take on the apparence of other Pokemons.I have nothing else to say about him.
-Bowser Jr;If you want to play as Shadow Mario that badly,they can simply make it an alternate costume for Mario.beyond that,Mario is already super-crowded and i doubt the franchise will get more than 3-4 Mario characters.
-Pacman;He can punch,kick,roll and somehow could have a ground-pound attack...If you through Sonic`s attacks were repetitive,then just imagine how boring Pacman would be.Any other Namco characters could make for a more interesting playable characters than him.
Also,the importance of the characters doesn`t mean shiz at the end because if Sonic ended up playable in Brawl it wasn`t because he`s Sega mascot but because people wanted him badly.Most characters from third-parties can easily be imagined with a moveset,the ones that ends up being added simply makes sense when they`re added,and certaintly NOT before.
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Logically yes, but we don't know anything about the development process to say for sure. I already gave a couple of examples of that. All we know is that one was finished, the other wasn't for whatever reason, besides time obviously, which can be approached in multiple ways (ex. shifting resources to finish at least one of the two characters, a character was harder to program and took more time, ect.) we don't know any of the other specifics behind Sakurai's decisions.
The way priority, as I think you're taking it, is that it's Sakurai valuing a certain character over another (for reasons that flame wars are often started upon, ex. Lucario/Ike being newer), which could very well be the case (not that we'll ever know). Overall we know nothing about the internal development of the game and that time is too general to make such an accusation. In fact at this point all we can truly speculate is which characters will be planned for the game rather than the final final roster to which we'd have to know the development process to truly make an accurate guess towards.
Hopefully some of this makes sense, I want to use it as an argument for when we go back to Lucario/Zoroark (keep both on the roster) in the Discussion Group. lol
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
I guess what you're saying makes sense. But to me, it just seems totally obvious that certain characters were indeed priority over others. I'm not arguing why they were priority (although I did make some uneducated guesses), because that information is locked somewhere within Brawl's development history or Sakurai's head. I think that if there were any technical difficulties with characters that were high priority, the team would have wanted to work out those difficulties before finishing lower priority characters. I'm sure plenty of character on the roster right now had even bigger technical difficulties than Mewtwo or Roy would have had, but the team worked around those difficulties because those characters are priority. That's why I'm not buying the whole "possible technical difficulties" thing. I also don't see any other possible explanation that isn't just scraping the barrel for an explanation. It's most likely just simply prioritization.
jigglover
Smash Lord
Um... Isn't Lucario just higher priority because he was newer, and at the time more popular?
Besides, with 2 new generations between melee and brawl, and another generation unrepresented, would newcomers of a different generation be higher on his list than another generation 1 pokemon? I mean, Jigglypuff was only just in, and if Jigglypuff was a newcomer for melee or mewtwo got into 64, then I can almost guarantee you we would have either Mewtwo without Jigglypuff, or neither Mewtwo or Jigglypuff.
Besides, with 2 new generations between melee and brawl, and another generation unrepresented, would newcomers of a different generation be higher on his list than another generation 1 pokemon? I mean, Jigglypuff was only just in, and if Jigglypuff was a newcomer for melee or mewtwo got into 64, then I can almost guarantee you we would have either Mewtwo without Jigglypuff, or neither Mewtwo or Jigglypuff.
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@Spydr: Like I said, who knows what goes on behind the development curtain? lol
Anyway I just don't like prioritization as an argument. It feels like a cheap way to say why you think a character will be cut without giving a reason as to why a character is to be cut. It also kinda goes and claims that you're Sakurai because you know what characters he values more than others.
Anyway I just don't like prioritization as an argument. It feels like a cheap way to say why you think a character will be cut without giving a reason as to why a character is to be cut. It also kinda goes and claims that you're Sakurai because you know what characters he values more than others.
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
We don't know that for sure, which is what Tryphen has been trying to say, and I'd agree with him on that.
I've been thinking about this long before you mentioned it. It is much easier to determine what characters will most likely be planned than what characters will most likely end up on the final roster. Like, if someone was to predict the final roster (as we are attempting to do in the discussion group) before Brawl and they were spot-on with their predictions, their roster would include all 39 Brawl characters as well as the forbidden 7, because they would have been on the roster anyway had it not been for problems such as technical difficulties and time limitations, which we are unable to speculate upon. I hope that makes sense.
For our own roster in the DG, it might be best to predict not only the final roster but that plus the planned characters as well. Like you said, we can't really speculate a true, final roster at this point anyway, since we know nothing about the development process or priorities. Good point.
Reyson
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Isn't that more or less what Spydr has been saying? His guess was that the more relevant and new characters getting priority over those that weren't.
With Pokémon Trainer adding 3 more gen 1 pokemon, losing Jigglypuff(who was less relevant) wouldn't have been so bad and losing Toon Link/Young Link(also at the end of the list) wouldn't have been such a big deal since he was a clone. I don't think it was a coinsidence that most of the clones and less relevant characters from SSBM were at the bottom of the to-do list.
If the same thing happened in SSB4 we could see characters like Ike, Lucario, Toon Link,.. be on the chopping block due to time constraint and less relevance, though it'll be harder because there aren't really any clones in SSBB.
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
Be careful with that whole "Jigglypuff barely got in" thing. That has hardly any evidence to back it up, and it's a weak theory based off of another theory that someone came up with a while ago. The real theory is that Wolf was the character who "barely made it," and there really is evidence to support that. Not really the case with Jigglypuff and Toon Link. Those two are only clumped together with Wolf because all three characters are among the last to be unlocked and none appeared in the Subspace Emissary, which could simply be because Sakurai didn't know how to fit them in.
The "barely just got in" thing works for Wolf. Not so much for Jigglypuff or Toon Link.
The "barely just got in" thing works for Wolf. Not so much for Jigglypuff or Toon Link.
Reyson
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Ah, I didn't realise. Considering quite a few people on here mentioned it as Toon Link, Jigglypuff and Wolf being the last ones in, I assumed this was found out by people checking the gamefiles and was considered fact.
As for Wolf, I don't think many people would have minded him not being in the game at the time. While we know now that he is a character with a mostly unique moveset, at the time he could've just as easily been a slower, stronger Fox with the same moveset. Just like Dr. Mario could've been a completely unique character in Brawl or he could've been the same as he was in Melee.
SmashGuy
Smash Journeyman
I'm sure that their gonna add pacman cuz namco badi's dumb like that! Ssb4 I don't think Is gonna be very good... But they HAVE to get Mewtwo back! Also, when smash ball is on low, it appears like every 45seconds! Like6 times in a 5 minute game!
Also level 9 s should be harder or have lv 15 s or somethin. Finnaly, they should make it like PM the 4th! Brawl was way to light and the gravity wasn't near anything to melee! Like captain falcon was AWESOME in melée cuz he could get someone w/ like 5 kicks then knee of justice them! Greatest combo ever!
O I forgot about sunspace emissary too! It was fun but it should be cooler and harder to beat and longer! I don't have an idea of what it could be but they need to fix/ make that also better too!
They should have cooler music and cooler (less run awayable) stages! And custimzing miis moves? IDK about that..?..?
Last of all, they should include me! As a boss in a boss battle! And the wifi battling and stuff, they should make it to where the wii shows up a messege that one of your friends or someone is online so you don't have to wait in a friends room 4 like an hour!
They shall make the game better!!! Hopefully they don't just make it worst by saying," Oh well everyone likes to hack so we'll give away free hackings!!"
Also level 9 s should be harder or have lv 15 s or somethin. Finnaly, they should make it like PM the 4th! Brawl was way to light and the gravity wasn't near anything to melee! Like captain falcon was AWESOME in melée cuz he could get someone w/ like 5 kicks then knee of justice them! Greatest combo ever!
O I forgot about sunspace emissary too! It was fun but it should be cooler and harder to beat and longer! I don't have an idea of what it could be but they need to fix/ make that also better too!
They should have cooler music and cooler (less run awayable) stages! And custimzing miis moves? IDK about that..?..?
Last of all, they should include me! As a boss in a boss battle! And the wifi battling and stuff, they should make it to where the wii shows up a messege that one of your friends or someone is online so you don't have to wait in a friends room 4 like an hour!
They shall make the game better!!! Hopefully they don't just make it worst by saying," Oh well everyone likes to hack so we'll give away free hackings!!"
3Bismyname
Smash Champion
Question, if Sonic was added because he was heavily requested wouldn't that give all of your Never gonna happens a better chance? because many of the characters u say won't make are still heavily requested and are still important to Nintendo. and importance does matter greatly. But obviously there is no point in talking sense to a Troll. next time try to seem less obvious by choosing a better name.
Sir Ilpalazzo
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I saw this a few pages back and I thought I'd respond.
Pichu didn't necessarily get in as a "second-generation representative", but the reason Sakurai considered him in the first place was because he wanted a new Pokemon. It's true that he ultimately only got in as a filler character, but him being from Gold and Silver played a role too.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37915502&postcount=7506
I'm sure this exact post has come up in the thread before, since it's pretty old, but I can say that the person who posted that is totally reliable when it comes to stuff like this, so I would take it at face value even without the original source.
D
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It was Pichu's promotion as a result of G/S that made Sakurai look back to add it, not the fact it was from G/S.
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Meh, I'm not sure about the user who posted it (says he's banned) but most of the information does hold up (hense why I added it to the Directory thread a while back, but with a grain of salt warning). Just don't be using that as a case for a new Pokemon this time around though.
D
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I think the Pichu interaction does further prove that Sakurai does have some say in who gets in with regards to Pokemon.
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I'd honestly bet he has the vast majority of control and that TPC is very open. He does get access to more than just the playable Pokemon doesn't he (trophies, Pokeballs, cameos, bosses, Melee intro, stages)? The amount of Pokemon related things that appear in each game is staggering to say the least. For TPC to have as much control and influence as people say they do, the games would take forever to develop in that regard.
I'll try and tie this into some of the roster selection theories later if it comes up.
I'll try and tie this into some of the roster selection theories later if it comes up.
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lolwut at awful troll. All of the reasons you posted are terrible. Go back to Gamefaqs
Ember Reaper
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I was waiting for someone to react, I was surprised he was ignored for an entire page
Vintage Creep
Smash Master
- King K. Rool: just no. He has an awesome personality, he looks great and could offer an amazing moveset. This one is just wrong. Waluigi is a random Nintendo character, not K. Rool.
- Megaman: I can somewhat agree with this. Capcom will be hard to reach and convince, but I think is one of the most likely third parties.
- Well Isaac and Little Mac are in fact the two most requested assist trophies to become actual characters. Samurai Goroh has a chance. I understand is not like, official, but they totally have a chance, and the point you brought up is simply false.
- Takamaru: resurrected? In NintendoLol? I would rather stay dead and forgotten. He and Little Mac are the retro ones which have more chances, if you ask me.
- Zoroark: sadly I don't think you're right. I don't like Zoroark, at all, but if a 5th-gen pokémon is going to be in, he and Victini are the most likely. Again, sadly, because Mewtwo and Lucario are both far better for me.
- Bowser Jr.: he would probably have his own moveset. I don't think people are again into the Shadow Mario thing. I would hate to see Jr. as an half-clone, it wouldn't make sense. I agree that he's not that likely, but impossible? Lol. Master Chief is impossible.
- Pacman: I loved Sonic in Brawl, repetitive? Who cares. I'm sure Pacman will be in. Him or no Namco/Bandai rep at all.
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
Don't respond/react to him. He's obviously trolling... he wants you to react so he can keep on trolling. Just ignore him.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Smash Apprentice
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I'm not sure if that's a meaningful distinction. Unfortunately there's no way to tell exactly what Sakurai said, since the original text isn't available, but my point was only that he did get in largely because Sakurai saw an opportunity to easily represent the newer Pokemon games, and that he wasn't just a filler character.
Of course, considering the circumstances of how Pichu finally got into Melee and Brawl's roster, it's clear that generation representation isn't particuarly important to Sakurai, but I think that, considering the nature of Pokemon, we'll always see a new or recent Pokemon character in each Smash Bros. game.
Your response made me check out the directory thread, and that is pretty awesome.
Is there any particular reason you think there wouldn't be a new Pokemon, or am I reading that wrong?
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
It's always a treat to hear from you, Sir Ilpalazzo. 
While you're around, I would love to hear your thoughts in the Discussion Group, if you have the time.
EDIT: Nevermind, I see you've already contributed. Stick around for a while if you can!
While you're around, I would love to hear your thoughts in the Discussion Group, if you have the time. EDIT: Nevermind, I see you've already contributed. Stick around for a while if you can!
It's a bit of a difficult situation... See, most agree that Mewtwo will return. Most also agree that there won't be any cuts. If we have Mewtwo and Lucario still around, would that leave enough room for a new Pokemon? I myself am constantly changing positions on the subject. It's too tricky.
Sir Ilpalazzo
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I agree, the Pokemon situation is difficult to predict. I would say that out of all the big series, it's going to be the hardest to predict.
I don't think that Pokemon will be (or should be) represented by Pokemon from each generation or anything like that, but I just cannot see this game coming out without a Black / White Pokemon (or maaaybe something from future Pokemon games, but I really doubt that). Minus a few mainstays like Pikachu, a few legendaries, is constantly changing, and like Fire Emblem, I don't believe the series can be properly represented without at least one character from the newest generation. I know there was a big discussion on priority going on earlier, but I think that no matter how popular Mewtwo was, he will not beat out some new character at this point, especially since Mewtwo has already been cut from one Smash Bros. game. I also think that the amount of newcomers will probably be somewhere between Melee's and Brawl's, and that if character resources are limited at all, Mewtwo won't return.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't agree that Mewtwo definitely will return or even that he's likely to. I think it's certainly possible, and that he's more realistic than, say, most characters brought up as Zelda newcomers or any F-Zero newcomer, but I think it might be too optimistic to call him a lock. I think I would also say that arguments could be made for the removal of any of the Pokemon characters aside from Pikachu (not that I would make them).
I don't think that Pokemon will be (or should be) represented by Pokemon from each generation or anything like that, but I just cannot see this game coming out without a Black / White Pokemon (or maaaybe something from future Pokemon games, but I really doubt that). Minus a few mainstays like Pikachu, a few legendaries, is constantly changing, and like Fire Emblem, I don't believe the series can be properly represented without at least one character from the newest generation. I know there was a big discussion on priority going on earlier, but I think that no matter how popular Mewtwo was, he will not beat out some new character at this point, especially since Mewtwo has already been cut from one Smash Bros. game. I also think that the amount of newcomers will probably be somewhere between Melee's and Brawl's, and that if character resources are limited at all, Mewtwo won't return.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't agree that Mewtwo definitely will return or even that he's likely to. I think it's certainly possible, and that he's more realistic than, say, most characters brought up as Zelda newcomers or any F-Zero newcomer, but I think it might be too optimistic to call him a lock. I think I would also say that arguments could be made for the removal of any of the Pokemon characters aside from Pikachu (not that I would make them).
jigglover
Smash Lord
OK, this will be my first crack at a prediction roster, and it will be in list form. Tell me any comments (I have only added one Yoshi newcomer!!!)
Mario:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
I added bowser junior, not only from personal bias, but because he is very largely requested, and is a major plot point in the mario series.
DK:
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
King K Rool
I added K rool because he is the second most requested character, and is incredibly relevant to the series.
Yoshi:
Yoshi
Baby bros.
Baby bros. has a lot more move-set potential than that of Kamek, from the mario sports games and the stork call for an up B, and Sakurai already feels baby mario is rather important, due to him having a trophy in melee and brawl.
Wario:
Wario
Simples!
Legend of Zelda:
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Majora's mask link
Sakurai feels it important to have a child link (not to mention adding young link before ganondorf in melee, and almost not adding Ganondorf at all!) and since both wind waker link and OoT link has gotten in, it looks like it's the final identified young link's turn, Majora's mask! I don't think any one-shots, however relevant to the story they may be, should get in just yet. I also don't believe Vaati should get in right now.
Metroid:
Samus/ZSS
Ridley
Everyone knows why Ridley will be in. The single most requested character, done.
Kid Icarus:
Pit
Palutena
Kid Icarus: Uprising has been voted the most popular game for 3DS, and Palutena deserves to be in if Kid Icarus does get a new rep.
Ice climbers:
Ice climbers
Done.
R.O.B series:
R.O.B
Kirby:
Kirby
King Dedede
Meta-knight
There are lots of possible newcomers for the Kirby series, but with places tight, my money is that none are quite deserving enough right now.
Pikmin:
Olimar
Yeah, I don't think that Pikmin should get a new rep for 2 games or so, unless they start scraping the battle or need last-minute clones like in melee.
Star Fox:
Fox
Falco
Wolf
I can't tell you how much I want Slippy in smash, but this is a prediction roster, not a want roster.
F-Zero:
Captain falcon
Samurai Goroh
Goroh is very popular, and F-zero has actually been voted tenth most popular franchise among boys, this puts it more than worthy of at least 2 reps in smash.
Pokemon:
Pikachu
N
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Meloetta
Mewtwo
N will not be like the current pokemon trainer, but will be a human fighter, using at least one pokemon every move, just like on the new pokemon trainer thread. Getting rid of PT's three pokemon let me add Mewtwo from popularity, and a popular 5th gen. My reason for adding Meloetta over Zoroark is not only personal bias, but due to Zoroark's signature illusion ability being possibly unfeasible to Sakurai (and me), and Meloetta being a simple second choice.
Fire emblem:
Marth
Ike
Krom
Krom is in from being the newest lord, simple as that. The backlash won't be very big if Roy isn't in this time around, and it just makes more sense to out in Krom.
Mother/Earthbound:
Ness
Lucas
No newcomers here.
GaW:
Mr. Game and watch.
Simples!
Third parties:
Snake
Sonic
Black mage
I think that squeenix should get a rep in smash, and black mage is the most likely in my opinion. Megaman seems a push to get in, really.
Unrepresented series':
Golden sun:
Isaac
I think that Golden sun should definitely get represented in this game, and Isaac is just more likely than Matthew!
Punch out!!!:
Little mac
Little mac seems almost at a shoo-in position to me, extremely popular and more expecdted than wanted, really.
Wow, not too big at all! Almost too small in fact!
Please post any comments you may have:
Mario:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
I added bowser junior, not only from personal bias, but because he is very largely requested, and is a major plot point in the mario series.
DK:
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
King K Rool
I added K rool because he is the second most requested character, and is incredibly relevant to the series.
Yoshi:
Yoshi
Baby bros.
Baby bros. has a lot more move-set potential than that of Kamek, from the mario sports games and the stork call for an up B, and Sakurai already feels baby mario is rather important, due to him having a trophy in melee and brawl.
Wario:
Wario
Simples!
Legend of Zelda:
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Majora's mask link
Sakurai feels it important to have a child link (not to mention adding young link before ganondorf in melee, and almost not adding Ganondorf at all!) and since both wind waker link and OoT link has gotten in, it looks like it's the final identified young link's turn, Majora's mask! I don't think any one-shots, however relevant to the story they may be, should get in just yet. I also don't believe Vaati should get in right now.
Metroid:
Samus/ZSS
Ridley
Everyone knows why Ridley will be in. The single most requested character, done.
Kid Icarus:
Pit
Palutena
Kid Icarus: Uprising has been voted the most popular game for 3DS, and Palutena deserves to be in if Kid Icarus does get a new rep.
Ice climbers:
Ice climbers
Done.
R.O.B series:
R.O.B
Kirby:
Kirby
King Dedede
Meta-knight
There are lots of possible newcomers for the Kirby series, but with places tight, my money is that none are quite deserving enough right now.
Pikmin:
Olimar
Yeah, I don't think that Pikmin should get a new rep for 2 games or so, unless they start scraping the battle or need last-minute clones like in melee.
Star Fox:
Fox
Falco
Wolf
I can't tell you how much I want Slippy in smash, but this is a prediction roster, not a want roster.
F-Zero:
Captain falcon
Samurai Goroh
Goroh is very popular, and F-zero has actually been voted tenth most popular franchise among boys, this puts it more than worthy of at least 2 reps in smash.
Pokemon:
Pikachu
N
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Meloetta
Mewtwo
N will not be like the current pokemon trainer, but will be a human fighter, using at least one pokemon every move, just like on the new pokemon trainer thread. Getting rid of PT's three pokemon let me add Mewtwo from popularity, and a popular 5th gen. My reason for adding Meloetta over Zoroark is not only personal bias, but due to Zoroark's signature illusion ability being possibly unfeasible to Sakurai (and me), and Meloetta being a simple second choice.
Fire emblem:
Marth
Ike
Krom
Krom is in from being the newest lord, simple as that. The backlash won't be very big if Roy isn't in this time around, and it just makes more sense to out in Krom.
Mother/Earthbound:
Ness
Lucas
No newcomers here.
GaW:
Mr. Game and watch.
Simples!
Third parties:
Snake
Sonic
Black mage
I think that squeenix should get a rep in smash, and black mage is the most likely in my opinion. Megaman seems a push to get in, really.
Unrepresented series':
Golden sun:
Isaac
I think that Golden sun should definitely get represented in this game, and Isaac is just more likely than Matthew!
Punch out!!!:
Little mac
Little mac seems almost at a shoo-in position to me, extremely popular and more expecdted than wanted, really.
Wow, not too big at all! Almost too small in fact!
Please post any comments you may have:
Vintage Creep
Smash Master
Well I wasn't angry or anything. He was provocative for sure, that's good, it gives food for thought.
@jigglover
Don't know really. As you stated, the roster seems too small. I would be disappointed by that, first. The Mario, DK, Metroid, Wario, Kid Icarus, Kirby, StarFox, Pikmin and F-Zero franchises would be fine. Or at least if you ask me, I think they're nice and deserving additions, so they're OK.
Now, Zelda: if by Majora's Link you mean a Young Link able to wear different masks and then having different moveset, I think it could work. Obviously it would be interesting. But I think there are characters with more chance, as these:
- Toon Link with a different moveset. He could use the Deku leaf and other things.
- Lord Ghirahim represents the last Zelda.
- Toon Zelda / Tetra only because they were scrapped from Brawl.
- Skull Kid really requested character and one of the best of the series.
That said, for me Zelda deserves five reps. We can say that with Zelda/Sheik they're already there, but I mean five slots.
Yoshi franchise: even if the Baby Bros. would be interesting, I don't think they deserve the spot. I've been thinking about a new Yoshi, with babies on his top, and obviously a new moveset. I would miss Yoshi as a "solo", but I really think is the only way to see babies as a character.
Pokémon franchise: very, very unpopular reps you have. Eliminating Pokémon Trainer? He's the most original, funny new fighter from Brawl. They obviously put a lot of effort on him. I don't see him scrapped off AT ALL. Not even substituted by a new one. N: a human character as a fighter for the Pokémon franchise? And I don't really understand his moveset, seems slow and difficult to make. If really, he would be exactly as the Pokémon Trainer but with his own trio. And in the end... Meloetta? She's probably the most hated Pokémon of the 5th gen. Can't happen, and a lot of people would hate her. If there is going to be a 5th gen pkmn, I bet all my money it won't be her. If not Zoroark, then Victini, or a new trio of starters (Snivy, Dewott and Emboar?).
For the rest... Meh. Black Mage is too much. And I don't really see Sakurai, which has probably the possibility of use almost any Namco/Bandai character, go get someone unreachable like Black Mage without Pac-Man, for example.
For Fire Emblem, I don't really know the series, but I think two reps are enough. But don't know really.
Isaac and Little Mac are good and almost no-brainers, but only two? C'mon it can be better.
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Thank you. And don't worry I added your old character thread to it.
I think there could be a new Pokemon, it's just that arguing using that particular information is bad for the following reasons:
1. It's still technically shaky and cannot be fully proven just yet.
2. It talks about there being no viable Pokemon in 2nd Gen, which could lead to some very subjective arguments when talking about new Pokemon.
3. Most importantly, Pokemon has grown a lot as a series since then.
4. Also the Mewtwo factor which I'm just going to throw into this for whatever reason.
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That was the point. The kids a troll trying get an reaction out of people. I was quite happy to it ignored for so long. It showed how unimportant and meaningless his rants are.
SmasherMaster
Smash Lord
Pokemon is the hardest series when it comes to characters, probably even harder than the retro characters
evilsmashbrosfan
Smash Cadet
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1-Bowser.Jr could be a considered a major points...before Mario...before Luigi...before Peach...before Bowser...before goombas...before koopas...before boos...before the kameks...can i go on
2-A cameo in a slighly old Mario sport game and an complete absence doesn`t make him seems important if you ask me.
3-I`m not sure about another Link,but Majora Mask Link is still better than young or toon Link
4-Ridley would make for a good playable character if good efforts are put behind him.
5-I agree about Palutena
6-All the major Kirby characters are already in,so maybe they`ll be newcommers from this franchise in the MUGEN edition of the next Smash Bros.
7-Olimar alone is fine,next.
8-To me,it seems 97 percent of every suggested roster is a WANT roster instead of a PREDICTION roster,so that`s not a good thing to say.But yes,Star Fox has enough representatives.
9-F-zero is fine with Captain Falcon alone.More characters wouldn`t make sense since there hasn`t been a new game in a while.
10-It`s nice to see someone who doesn`t simply replace Lucario with Zoroark.10 points for originality.
11-Sure,except that if you count the DLCs that`s being released in Awakening,many old Fire Emblem characters are appearing,so Krom isn`t definitive.
12-Thank god,Earthbound doesn`t need more,in reality it should have less,1 minimum and minus 1 at the maximum.
13-Mr Game and Watch is a god.
14-I agree that Megaman doesn`t stand a chance however i`m not sure Final Fantasy characters should get in since people are probably going to request Cloud and Sephiroth then they`ll troll the fans by putting Lightning.
15-Golden Sun could be ressurected,yup.
16-You should thank Namco for the chance that Little Mac has.Since Sakurai had no idea how to make him playable in Brawl Namco had Steve from Tekken 5 has experience with boxing characters in a fighting game.
Final comment;Your roster actually has 47 characters if you exclude Sheik and ZSS.That`s too big and frankly unrealistic.Remember that Sakurai already commented on how they reached the limits of what`s possible in term of roster size so expecting something any bigger than 35 slots is unrealistic.But hey,people look at me like i`m a troll...
Sir Ilpalazzo
Smash Apprentice
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I get what you mean about that information seeming shaky. It's a shame that the source isn't available to us, but honestly, as someone who's crazy about SSB trivia stuff, I am confident that that poster, cednym, is 100% reliable when it comes to things like this. He dug up a lot of stuff about Marvel vs. Capcom 3 before it was released, and I firmly believe he has no reason to lie.Thank you. And don't worry I added your old character thread to it.
I think there could be a new Pokemon, it's just that arguing using that particular information is bad for the following reasons:
1. It's still technically shaky and cannot be fully proven just yet.
2. It talks about there being no viable Pokemon in 2nd Gen, which could lead to some very subjective arguments when talking about new Pokemon.
3. Most importantly, Pokemon has grown a lot as a series since then.
4. Also the Mewtwo factor which I'm just going to throw into this for whatever reason.
I do agree with your third point - I don't actually think it will happen, but I could maybe imagine Lucario staying as the sole representative of the new Pokemon games since he's being used to promote Black and White as well - but I don't really agree with your second point. All Sakurai said there is that Pokemon who aren't heavily promoted by Nintendo or are otherwise very important to the game aren't going to get used, and I think most people agree on that anyway.
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Sorry if some of the stuff I said sounds weird. I responded too late and forgot what I was originally going to say.
My first point, while I do think it holds up, I'm the kinda guy who likes to have the hard evidence. You don't win debates with stuff you can't properly back up. With my second point, I was actually viewing it more as moveset/fitting into Smash point of view, as I'm seeing some parallels between Gen 2 and 5 in that regard. To say that Nintendo didn't promote any Gen 2 Pokemon would be ridiculous. lol
Also you don't think we'll get a newcomer Pokemon? Could you explain a bit further, I'm curious to hear your opinions on that as well as Mewtwo.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Smash Apprentice
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I get where you're coming from with the evidence thing. I thought that was what you meant with the second point, but I think the original point Sakurai was trying to make was that the second generation didn't have very many characters who were both very popular or promoted by Nintendo and were also obvious fits for Smash Bros. I don't think subjectivity plays much of a role here, since that was Sakurai himself making a statement and not us fans speculating on what Sakurai thinks.Sorry if some of the stuff I said sounds weird. I responded too late and forgot what I was originally going to say.
My first point, while I do think it holds up, I'm the kinda guy who likes to have the hard evidence. You don't win debates with stuff you can't properly back up. With my second point, I was actually viewing it more as moveset/fitting into Smash point of view, as I'm seeing some parallels between Gen 2 and 5 in that regard. To say that Nintendo didn't promote any Gen 2 Pokemon would be ridiculous. lol
Also you don't think we'll get a newcomer Pokemon? Could you explain a bit further, I'm curious to hear your opinions on that as well as Mewtwo.
I must not have been very clear. I meant that I absolutely think there will be a Black / White character from the game, but in the extremely unlikely event there isn't, Lucario might be able to represent those games since he is still pretty prominent in promotional stuff for them.
There may be hundreds more Pokemon now than there were when Melee was in development, but I think the number of potential playable candidates has grown only slightly.
Honestly, I don't think Isaac is. If he really was, he would have gotten into Brawl, when his million-selling games were more recent. As things stand now, the last game he was in (where he was a supporting character) apparently underperformed, so he neither "relevant" or "retro". If you look in the SSB directory topic, Sakurai was even quoted as saying that he believes the only relatively recent (at the time of Brawl's release) worthy of playable representation were Pikmin and Animal Crossing. Golden Sun had no problems with sales or recognition at the time, so doesn't it say something that it wasn't counted among those series?
There's also the fact that he's really just a "second-party" character. Every playable character in Smash Bros. (except for Snake and Sonic, of course) comes from series that have been primarily handled by Nintendo's internal studios. This is part of the reason why I've come to believe it's very unlikely that characters from Golden Sun, Sin and Punishment, or other series in similar situations will be playable.
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