Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[FlareHabanero]

Technically speaking Hal Laboratory and Game Freak are also second party, meaning that technically speaking all characters form the Kirby, Mother, and Pokemon series were made by secondary companies as opposed to a first party company like Intelligent Systems or Retro Studios. So technically a character that comes from a secondary company is just as viable as any other character.

But I do admit that people do exaggerate how Issac is important and NEEDS to be in the next Super Smash Bros. and stuff. Then again Golden Sun wasn't exactly a very memorable series to me, so maybe I don't know any better and should exit stage right.

 

[3Bismyname]

Honestly, I don't think Isaac is. If he really was, he would have gotten into Brawl, when his million-selling games were more recent. As things stand now, the last game he was in (where he was a supporting character) apparently underperformed, so he neither "relevant" or "retro". If you look in the SSB directory topic, Sakurai was even quoted as saying that he believes the only relatively recent (at the time of Brawl's release) worthy of playable representation were Pikmin and Animal Crossing. Golden Sun had no problems with sales or recognition at the time, so doesn't it say something that it wasn't counted among those series?

There's also the fact that he's really just a "second-party" character. Every playable character in Smash Bros. (except for Snake and Sonic, of course) comes from series that have been primarily handled by Nintendo's internal studios. This is part of the reason why I've come to believe it's very unlikely that characters from Golden Sun, Sin and Punishment, or other series in similar situations will be playable.

Pokemon is second party. and to a certain degree DK would even be considered second party in his first appearence in ssb. (by that i mean that while the original idea for DK came from Nintendo originally, that interpretation of DK was created by Rare). Second party's have just as big a chance to get in as any first party's if the demand and popularity is there. personally i feel like Matthew should get in but thats just me

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Technically speaking Hal Laboratory and Game Freak are also second party, meaning that technically speaking all characters form the Kirby, Mother, and Pokemon series were made by secondary companies as opposed to a first party company like Intelligent Systems or Retro Studios. So technically a character that comes from a secondary company is just as viable as any other character.

But I do admit that people do exaggerate how Issac is important and NEEDS to be in the next Super Smash Bros. and stuff. Then again Golden Sun wasn't exactly a very memorable series to me, so maybe I don't know any better and should exit stage right.

HAL and Ape Inc. aren't / weren't second party. HAL started out as an independent company but they were later bought by Nintendo. Ape was always a Nintendo subsidiary (although Mother 3's development was mainly handled by Brownie Brown, which is "second-party" - but the series was originally created and developed by Nintendo). You're right on Pokemon, I forgot about that, but that does bring me to that fairly recent Sakurai interview and to the discussion from the last page where he talks about how Pokemon is different from all of the other series with playable in that it isn't a purely Nintendo-owned thing.

So let me amend my statement: aside from Pokemon, which Sakurai has said is a special case, and the third-party series, every other series in Smash Bros. is first-party.

Pokemon is second party. and to a certain degree DK would even be considered second party in his first appearence in ssb. (by that i mean that while the original idea for DK came from Nintendo originally, that interpretation of DK was created by Rare). Second party's have just as big a chance to get in as any first party's if the demand and popularity is there. personally i feel like Matthew should get in but thats just me

Having several games developed by an outside developer doesn't make a series second-party, no matter how good the games were. Just about every series in Smash Bros. has had some outsourced games.

And I just don't think there's any evidence to your second point.

 

[Deleted member]

@Sir Ilpalazzo: Glad to see you here. Enjoyed viewing the few posts you've made on the forum.

I know there was a big discussion on priority going on earlier, but I think that no matter how popular Mewtwo was, he will not beat out some new character at this point, especially since Mewtwo has already been cut from one Smash Bros. game. I also think that the amount of newcomers will probably be somewhere between Melee's and Brawl's, and that if character resources are limited at all, Mewtwo won't return.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't agree that Mewtwo definitely will return or even that he's likely to. I think it's certainly possible, and that he's more realistic than, say, most characters brought up as Zelda newcomers or any F-Zero newcomer, but I think it might be too optimistic to call him a lock

I wouldn't say that a Pokemon newcomer will definitely beat Mewtwo out. Yes it is true that he was cut from the roster (granted due to time constraints), but like you said, generational representation is not top priority for Sakurai. Mewtwo was added in Melee before Pichu and if the data in Brawl is any indication, Pokemon Trainer was technically added before Lucario as well. What's also important is that Mewtwo is likely the most wanted character for SSB4. Second most popular character in Japan (only slightly beaten by Roy; both are very highly requested there, which can't be said for any newcomers) and most certainly in the Top 5 here. I am confident that the most wanted character will be in and if that most wanted character is Mewtwo, not only would I see him as a lock, I could see him get priority over a Pokemon newcomer/Lucario.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Yeah, I'm really starting to feel more pessimistic about the inclusion of new series characters. like Isaac or Saki (and especially Shulk, who I still believe is more unlikely than the others).

For Pokemon, I don't think that the latest generation needs to be represented with a playable character. That can be done quite easily and effectively with stages, music, and Pokeball appearances. As you said, Sir Ilpalazzo, Lucario has been used to promote fifth generation, and so I think it wouldn't be too terribly wrong if he remained and a fifth-generation was absent. I'd say it could go either way, one way isn't any more likely than the other.

How do you feel about eight Pokemon reps, Ilpalazzo? Those include everyone from Brawl, plus Mewtwo and a fifth-generation?

I wouldn't say that a Pokemon newcomer will definitely beat Mewtwo out. Yes it is true that he was cut from the roster (granted due to time constraints), but like you said, generational representation is not top priority for Sakurai. Mewtwo was added in Melee before Pichu and if the data in Brawl is any indication, Pokemon Trainer was technically added before Lucario as well. What's also important is that Mewtwo is likely the most wanted character for SSB4. Second most popular character in Japan (only slightly beaten by Roy; both are very highly requested there, which can't be said for any newcomers) and most certainly in the Top 5 here. I am confident that the most wanted character will be in and if that most wanted character is Mewtwo, not only would I see him as a lock, I could see him get priority over a Pokemon newcomer/Lucario.

Agreed with this. Mewtwo is probably one of the most popular, highly-requested characters, if not the most popular (Roy seems to be in a similar place as well). For that reason, I think we will see these two characters make a return in Smash 4, leaving less room (potentially) for a fifth-generation Pokemon and a new Fire Emblem character.

 

[3Bismyname]

@Sir Ilpalazzo: the evidence is Pokemon. but beyond that Sakurai acknowledges that second party's are still quite important with all the Trophy's, assist trophy's, and in the case of Pokemon complete characters. and yes Hal is owned by Nintendo now, but they weren't always.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Pokemon is quite a massive cultural phenomenon though. You can't say the same with Golden Sun. Still not much evidence there. And trophies/stickers/etc. are nice, but we're talking about playable characters, the most important aspect of the game I'd say (content-wise, not gameplay-wise).

And I'm pretty sure HAL Labs (not HAL Corp) was owed by Nintendo long before the first Smash game even existed.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

@Sir Ilpalazzo: Glad to see you here. Enjoyed viewing the few posts you've made on the forum.

Thanks.

I wouldn't say that a Pokemon newcomer will definitely beat Mewtwo out. Yes it is true that he was cut from the roster (granted due to time constraints), but like you said, generational representation is not top priority for Sakurai. Mewtwo was added in Melee before Pichu and if the data in Brawl is any indication, Pokemon Trainer was technically added before Lucario as well. What's also important is that Mewtwo is likely the most wanted character for SSB4. Second most popular character in Japan (only slightly beaten by Roy; both are very highly requested there, which can't be said for any newcomers) and most certainly in the Top 5 here. I am confident that the most wanted character will be in and if that most wanted character is Mewtwo, not only would I see him as a lock, I could see him get priority over a Pokemon newcomer/Lucario.

I just don't believe Mewtwo could beat out a new Pokemon. Yes, Mewtwo absolutely is still popular and he totally could make it back in, but Pokemon's cast is constantly changing. No matter how popular Mewtwo is, I don't think Pokemon can be properly represented in Smash Bros. without a new character. It's not like most of the other series with playable characters, which can just stick with a small core cast - I think Pokemon's representation needs to be constantly changing, and a new Pokemon is probably more important than bringing back an old favorite.

I do think there's a minute chance that maybe Lucario could stay on as the sole "new-gen Pokemon representative" but I really doubt that.

Yeah, I'm really starting to feel more pessimistic about the inclusion of new series characters. like Isaac or Saki (and especially Shulk, who I still believe is more unlikely than the others).

For Pokemon, I don't think that the latest generation needs to be represented with a playable character. That can be done quite easily and effectively with stages, music, and Pokeball appearances. As you said, Sir Ilpalazzo, Lucario has been used to promote fifth generation, and so I think it wouldn't be too terribly wrong if he remained and a fifth-generation was absent. I'd say it could go either way, one way isn't any more likely than the other.

How do you feel about eight Pokemon reps, Ilpalazzo? Those include everyone from Brawl, plus Mewtwo and a fifth-generation?



Agreed with this. Mewtwo is probably one of the most popular, highly-requested characters, if not the most popular (Roy seems to be in a similar place as well). For that reason, I think we will see these two characters make a return in Smash 4, leaving less room (potentially) for a fifth-generation Pokemon and a new Fire Emblem character.

Pokemon is certainly a big enough series; it deserves that many characters. I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Your idea about the fifth-gen only being represented through Pokeballs and other things totally could happen. I don't think it's unrealistic. But Smash Bros. does partially serve the function of advertising all of these series and I really don't think that it will not be represented through a playable character.

I sort of feel the same way about Fire Emblem too, to be honest. I think Roy is less likely to return than Mewtwo just because Fire Emblem isn't as big of a series, but again, I wouldn't rule it out. Awakening has been doing really well in Japan, so I have absolutely no doubt that Krom will be in the next SSB; he's one of the only characters I would consider a lock, and I don't think Roy's tenure is enough to beat him. I think that in order for Roy to get in, either Fire Emblem will have to get four characters or Ike will be dropped (and really, Roy and Ike have almost exactly the same credentials at this point, the biggest difference being that one was in the last SSB and one wasn't). Considering Roy was just a clone to begin with, I don't think it's especially likely that he'll come back even if he does have Melee on his side. What would Roy really bring to the table that Marth, Ike, and Krom wouldn't?

 

[jigglover]

Only 2 replies to my roster, and only one being serious. Honestly, N seems like a logical replacement to PT right now, freeing up space for Mewtwo, a popular 5th gen rep and even a possible second and/or third. I used this in my roster by including Meloetta and Mewtwo, technically making pokemon have 1 less rep than brawl to avoid over-crowding. Meloetta being the most hated 5th gen? This is the first time I've ever heard about that, usually she's very, very popular. The reason I included Meloetta is that she has a nice gimmick that Sakurai likes exploiting, compared to that of Victini. The only other viable fifth rep I see worthy is Genesect, but I can't see how his move-set would work other than the final smash, which would be installing a random drive, releasing a beam like Samus', and it would do a random effect depending on the drive installed. Anyway...

 

[3Bismyname]

im just saying that characters who are second party are well acknowledged even in the event of not being a playable character. and if we were to throw out every character who is second party then a large chunk of possibilities would be lost. characters that a lot of people would like to see wouldn't even be considered. Saki, Isaac, Starfy, Ray even more pokemon. (thats all i can think of off the top of my head). I just feel that when it comes to character selection it really comes down to was the series popular and how much influence does Nintendo have to get that character in. and when it comes to second party's they still get a lot of pull.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I sort of feel the same way about Fire Emblem too, to be honest. I think Roy is less likely to return than Mewtwo just because Fire Emblem isn't as big of a series, but again, I wouldn't rule it out. Awakening has been doing really well in Japan, so I have absolutely no doubt that Krom will be in the next SSB; he's one of the only characters I would consider a lock, and I don't think Roy's tenure is enough to beat him. I think that in order for Roy to get in, either Fire Emblem will have to get four characters or Ike will be dropped (and really, Roy and Ike have almost exactly the same credentials at this point, the biggest difference being that one was in the last SSB and one wasn't). Considering Roy was just a clone to begin with, I don't think it's especially likely that he'll come back even if he does have Melee on his side. What would Roy really bring to the table that Marth, Ike, and Krom wouldn't?

I guess that is all one way to look at it. I myself do not consider Krom a lock at all, simply because I think Roy's popularity alone will win him a spot in Smash. Roy can easily be de-cloned in ways similar to Falco and Ganondorf should he return. Why would he need to stay completely identical to his Melee appearance?

Would I be right in guessing that you view cuts as an inevitable possibility?

Only 2 replies to my roster, and only one being serious. Honestly, N seems like a logical replacement to PT right now, freeing up space for Mewtwo, a popular 5th gen rep and even a possible second and/or third. I used this in my roster by including Meloetta and Mewtwo, technically making pokemon have 1 less rep than brawl to avoid over-crowding. Meloetta being the most hated 5th gen? This is the first time I've ever heard about that, usually she's very, very popular. The reason I included Meloetta is that she has a nice gimmick that Sakurai likes exploiting, compared to that of Victini. The only other viable fifth rep I see worthy is Genesect, but I can't see how his move-set would work other than the final smash, which would be installing a random drive, releasing a beam like Samus', and it would do a random effect depending on the drive installed. Anyway...

Honestly jigglover... your roster seems VERY unrealistic for a prediction roster. I can go into more detail if you'd like.

im just saying that characters who are second party are well acknowledged even in the event of not being a playable character. and if we were to throw out every character who is second party then a large chunk of possibilities would be lost. characters that a lot of people would like to see wouldn't even be considered. Saki, Isaac, Starfy, Ray even more pokemon. (thats all i can think of off the top of my head). I just feel that when it comes to character selection it really comes down to was the series popular and how much influence does Nintendo have to get that character in. and when it comes to second party's they still get a lot of pull.

But characters are what we are talking about here. And if a large chunk of possibilities are lost, so be it. It's not up to us. Also, you seem to be misguided in thinking that Nintendo pushes for certain characters and this is what decides the roster. This certainly is not the case... Sakurai decides the roster, and takes the suggestions of various companies, but ultimately it is Sakurai himself that decides what characters make it. If Nintendo had that much of a say, we probably wouldn't see many of the series represented, including F-Zero and MOTHER, as well as much less Star Fox characters and a ton more Mario characters.

 

[jigglover]

I am interested why my roster is so bad. I tried being original with the Pokemon section, and avoid over-crowding, but really, why is it so bad?

 

[SmashShadow]

Personally, I don't think there is any "accurate representation" for the Pokemon series at this point. The only way I could have seen that happening is if they added in 1 character from each gen. We already have 5 Pokemon from 1st gen and have none from 2nd or 3rd gen as reps. This leads me to believe that they are either placed in because they are extremely popular(Mewtwo, Lucario), mascots of the series(Pokemon trainer, Pikachu) or easily implemented due to other characters already in the game(Jigglypuff, Pichu).

If it is a necessity to rep 5th than why isn't it to have pokemon from 3rd gen? The answer is, it's not. Look, Zoroark definately deserves to get in but using the fact that he's from the latest generation doesn't justify him getting in over a more warranted, in every aspect, character like Mewtwo.

 

[3Bismyname]

But characters are what we are talking about here. And if a large chunk of possibilities are lost, so be it. It's not up to us. Also, you seem to be misguided in thinking that Nintendo pushes for certain characters and this is what decides the roster. This certainly is not the case... Sakurai decides the roster, and takes the suggestions of various companies, but ultimately it is Sakurai himself that decides what characters make it. If Nintendo had that much of a say, we probably wouldn't see many of the series represented, including F-Zero and MOTHER, as well as much less Star Fox characters and a ton more Mario characters.

i never said Nintendo pushes for characters. however in the event that Sakurai wants to include certain characters i believe he probably has to go through certain channels with the guys who pay them. I honestly think everyone gives Sakurai more credit then he deserves. yes he heads the team but he doesn't make all the decisions. But let's talk just the inclusion of Pokemon real quick. Sakurai says "hey Pokemon is kind of a big deal, we want Pikachu in the game." in a business sense its highly unlikely that he could just do that. especially considering that when dealing with second parties there is the possibility that they may not do business with that company in the future. like with Rare. more likely scenario is that Sakurai says "Pokemon is a big hit right now, is there any chance we could use them in our game." someone makes a call to someone at Gamefreak and gains permission to use the Pokemon. that's just a more realistic viewpoint and the fact that Nintendo has financial influence and in most cases is the reason that some of those second parties are even around i believe that saying this is a big Nintendo project holds a lot of weight. thats how the guys behind Playstation all stars have to do it so logically thats what Sakurai would have to do.

on another note im sure there's certain things Sakurai may have wanted to do differently with the games that we don't know about including certain character choices. its doubtful that he has completely free reigns.

 

[jigglover]

Personally, I don't think there is any "accurate representation" for the Pokemon series at this point. The only way I could have seen that happening is if they added in 1 character from each gen. We already have 5 Pokemon from 1st gen and have none from 2nd or 3rd gen as reps. This leads me to believe that they are either placed in because they are extremely popular(Mewtwo, Lucario), mascots of the series(Pokemon trainer, Pikachu) or easily implemented due to other characters already in the game(Jigglypuff, Pichu).

If it is a necessity to rep 5th than why isn't it to have pokemon from 3rd gen? The answer is, it's not. Look, Zoroark definately deserves to get in but using the fact that he's from the latest generation doesn't justify him getting in over a more warranted, in every aspect, character like Mewtwo.

Well, at the time of brawl the newest generation was the 4th gen, and a 4th gen got in. It does hold some weight. The reason characters like P&M and Deoxys are requested is because they are third gen anyway. Plus, there was (probably) a third gen pokemon duo planned for brawl anyway, so that kind of flaws your argument.

 

[Reyson]

Using polls to see which character should be in the game, especially when talking about characters excluded from Brawl, isn't really the best way to decide your roster. Sure, Mewtwo and Roy are characters people would like to see return, but does it warrant replacing characters that are in Brawl?
Do people expect these characters to be added on to the existing roster or do they want them to take the place of others?

This is especially relevant to the Fire Emblem characters, it's not that big of a series compared to Legend of Zelda, so I don't think it should get 4 characters. So you have the issue of having Marth, Ike, Roy and Krom being in the running with no clear idea of whether people want Roy to replace Ike or take the position that would otherwise be taken by Krom. Hell, even if all 4 of them get into SSB4, there is so little variation between them that it doesn't even represent Fire Emblem very well. Fire Emblem has mages, lancers, assassins, berserkers, pegasus riders, paladins, myrmidons, laguz,... yet all that will be represented are (mostly) swordwielding lords.

 

[splat]

[...] Look, Zoroark definately deserves to get in [...]

I agree with your post on the most part but this one got to me. How does Zoroark deserve it?

Zoroark appears to be heavily influenced by Lucario's 'success', so I understand people see him as Lucario's spiritual successor. Does that mean he should actually take Lucario's spot on the roster? I don't think so, simply because Lucario seems to be more important in the Pokémon universe.

Both the Pokémon got a movie, granted, but so did lots of other Pokémon, so I hardly consider that an actual argument.
Now, if we were to look at how we obtain both the Pokémon we learn that neither of the two can be caught, but their basic stage is handed out to the player a single time - there's no way of capturing more of them apart from breeding them.
These two points are often brought up as a means of describing why Zoroark is special. Makes some sense, but not as much as most people think they do.

Because if we look at the spin-offs we see little to nothing from Zoroark. He appears in Rumble Blast, Pokepark 2 and Conquest, but as far as I'm concerned he is used in every of those games as a filler character.
Lucario on the other hand, appears in Pokepark 2 as the most powerful Pokémon in the Arena, in Ranger 2 he has a key role as 'Gem Guardian' - the other two guardians are legendary - and there are two characters that are somewhat dressed like him in the games; Riley and Dusty.

Lucario seems more recognizable as a Pokémon due to more prominent roles, whereas Zoroark's only 'shine' has been his movie.

TL;DR version: Zoroark doesn't deserve it.

 

[SmasherMaster]

Using polls to see which character should be in the game, especially when talking about characters excluded from Brawl, isn't really the best way to decide your roster. Sure, Mewtwo and Roy are characters people would like to see return, but does it warrant replacing characters that are in Brawl?
Do people expect these characters to be added on to the existing roster or do they want them to take the place of others?

This is especially relevant to the Fire Emblem characters, it's not that big of a series compared to Legend of Zelda, so I don't think it should get 4 characters. So you have the issue of having Marth, Ike, Roy and Krom being in the running with no clear idea of whether people want Roy to replace Ike or take the position that would otherwise be taken by Krom. Hell, even if all 4 of them get into SSB4, there is so little variation between them that it doesn't even represent Fire Emblem very well. Fire Emblem has mages, lancers, assassins, berserkers, pegasus riders, paladins, myrmidons, laguz,... yet all that will be represented are (mostly) swordwielding lords.

I agree with this. That's why I have put Maiciah in my roster instead of Roy or Krom as the newest Fire Emblum character

 

[SmashChu]

Technically speaking Hal Laboratory and Game Freak are also second party

HAL has already been spoken for, but Nintendo owns 66% of Pokemon. The right are split between Nintendo, Game Freak and Creature Inc (which Nintendo owns). Each have 33%, so Nintendo has control over Pokemon.

Thanks.



I just don't believe Mewtwo could beat out a new Pokemon. Yes, Mewtwo absolutely is still popular and he totally could make it back in, but Pokemon's cast is constantly changing. No matter how popular Mewtwo is, I don't think Pokemon can be properly represented in Smash Bros. without a new character. It's not like most of the other series with playable characters, which can just stick with a small core cast - I think Pokemon's representation needs to be constantly changing, and a new Pokemon is probably more important than bringing back an old favorite.

I do think there's a minute chance that maybe Lucario could stay on as the sole "new-gen Pokemon representative" but I really doubt that.



Pokemon is certainly a big enough series; it deserves that many characters. I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Your idea about the fifth-gen only being represented through Pokeballs and other things totally could happen. I don't think it's unrealistic. But Smash Bros. does partially serve the function of advertising all of these series and I really don't think that it will not be represented through a playable character.

I sort of feel the same way about Fire Emblem too, to be honest. I think Roy is less likely to return than Mewtwo just because Fire Emblem isn't as big of a series, but again, I wouldn't rule it out. Awakening has been doing really well in Japan, so I have absolutely no doubt that Krom will be in the next SSB; he's one of the only characters I would consider a lock, and I don't think Roy's tenure is enough to beat him. I think that in order for Roy to get in, either Fire Emblem will have to get four characters or Ike will be dropped (and really, Roy and Ike have almost exactly the same credentials at this point, the biggest difference being that one was in the last SSB and one wasn't). Considering Roy was just a clone to begin with, I don't think it's especially likely that he'll come back even if he does have Melee on his side. What would Roy really bring to the table that Marth, Ike, and Krom wouldn't?

On Mewtwo and Roy: One thing to point out is that they are some of the most popular characters right now. On our Smashboard poll, Mewtwo is above every other Pokemon. Roy, from what I've heard, is the most popular character in Japan. Besides this, from what we've seen on the disc, they were always meant to return and I dont think there will be a problem with the next game. I do agree there is some advertising, but I don't think Sakurai will add the newest characters just because.

Good to see you here though!

 

[SmashGuy]

Who's votes Mewtwo should come back? !!!!

 

[SmasherMaster]

I like Mewtwo but I would only put him in if Lucario fights more like a Lucario and that another one of the Melee rejects return.

 

[evilsmashbrosfan]

I realised that i made some mistakes on my roster and decided to create a new one.I didn`t cut as many characters this time around,that said you probably still wont be happy about it for whatever reasons.Here it is;

Returning characters from the original;
-Mario
-Luigi
-Kirby
-Pikachu
-Link
-Donkey Kong
-Samus and Zero Suit Samus
-Fox
-Captain Falcon
-Jigglypuff
-Ness
Returning characters from Melee;
-Marth
-Peach
-Mr.Game and Watch
Returning characters from Brawl;
-Pit
-Metaknight
-Wario
Remplacements;
-Legendary trainer;with a roster consisting of Mewtwo,Lucario and a new Legendary Pokemon
-Toon Zelda and Tetra;the Zelda remplacement
-Diddy Kong and Dixie Kong;they work as a duo this time around.
Newcommers;
-Mach Rider;the retro character of this game,re-invented so he can fight independently from his bike.
-Little Mac;got playable thanks to Namco
-Palutena
-Shulk
-Guiharim
-Ridley
-Bayonetta
-Yoshimitsu

Now i`ll explain the changes;
-I haven`t added a second Donkey Kong character and haven`t being considerate of the amount of swordmen in the game as well.I also brought back the majority of the cast from the original except Yoshi since he`s nothing more than a power-up in the Mario games these days,so he`s not relevant.I also considered how Mario could be based on multiple games at once so i kept Peach and ditched Rosalina,through i think she will be there at least as an alternate costume.I also took off Pra Mai but added the Diddy and Dixie duo that Sakurai intended and cut off some of the newcommers because i couldn`t consider a full moveset for some of these characters.

Now feel free to hate and complain about this roster as much as you want.

 

[SmashShadow]

Well, at the time of brawl the newest generation was the 4th gen, and a 4th gen got in. It does hold some weight. The reason characters like P&M and Deoxys are requested is because they are third gen anyway. Plus, there was (probably) a third gen pokemon duo planned for brawl anyway, so that kind of flaws your argument.

Except that it's doesn't. Plusle and Minun did not make it in brawl and are not likely to get put in Smash4. It also is not a far stretch that we probably won't get a rep from either 3rd or 2nd gen. Yet, 3 more pokemon from first gen were added into brawl. If we go by that then there still isn't accurate representation until a rep from those 2 are put in. On top of that we'd need a 5th gen this time around so unless you think that we're getting 3 new pokemon(2nd gen, 3rd gen and 5th) in the next game then then all the generations aren't going to be represented character wise.

I agree with your post on the most part but this one got to me. How does Zoroark deserve it?

Zoroark appears to be heavily influenced by Lucario's 'success', so I understand people see him as Lucario's spiritual successor. Does that mean he should actually take Lucario's spot on the roster? I don't think so, simply because Lucario seems to be more important in the Pokémon universe.

Both the Pokémon got a movie, granted, but so did lots of other Pokémon, so I hardly consider that an actual argument.
Now, if we were to look at how we obtain both the Pokémon we learn that neither of the two can be caught, but their basic stage is handed out to the player a single time - there's no way of capturing more of them apart from breeding them.
These two points are often brought up as a means of describing why Zoroark is special. Makes some sense, but not as much as most people think they do.

Because if we look at the spin-offs we see little to nothing from Zoroark. He appears in Rumble Blast, Pokepark 2 and Conquest, but as far as I'm concerned he is used in every of those games as a filler character.
Lucario on the other hand, appears in Pokepark 2 as the most powerful Pokémon in the Arena, in Ranger 2 he has a key role as 'Gem Guardian' - the other two guardians are legendary - and there are two characters that are somewhat dressed like him in the games; Riley and Dusty.

Lucario seems more recognizable as a Pokémon due to more prominent roles, whereas Zoroark's only 'shine' has been his movie.

TL;DR version: Zoroark doesn't deserve it.

I'm never said he should replace Lucario in smash cause he shouldn't. What I meant is that he is a good choice Pokemon wise ,as are many others, and that if we're going to have a 5th gen get in it should be him. He is sort of the mascot of 5th gen as well as arguably the most popular pokemon from that gen. Of course he's going to pale in comparison to Lucario's popularity but most Pokemon do.

Not only that but as far as movies go they do hold some weight. They not only make the character more popular but when you look at the fact that other than Lucario, he's the only non legendary to be the focus of a movie. Most legendary's are going to be put in movies regardless simply because they're legendary's.

Also, Zoroark can actually be obtained in the game without catching it as its baby form but it's a special event in the game.

 

[jigglover]

I never, ever said that we needed a rep from gen 2, 3 and 5, and you are largely mistaken if you thought I did.

 

[Deleted member]

Pokemon can go either way in terms of having a 5th Gen. I personally think having Kyurem in its three forms as a boss would be the best route to go.

 

[Deleted member]

I just don't believe Mewtwo could beat out a new Pokemon. Yes, Mewtwo absolutely is still popular and he totally could make it back in, but Pokemon's cast is constantly changing. No matter how popular Mewtwo is, I don't think Pokemon can be properly represented in Smash Bros. without a new character. It's not like most of the other series with playable characters, which can just stick with a small core cast - I think Pokemon's representation needs to be constantly changing, and a new Pokemon is probably more important than bringing back an old favorite.

I do think there's a minute chance that maybe Lucario could stay on as the sole "new-gen Pokemon representative" but I really doubt that.

If we look back at this post, you'll see that Mewtwo was grouped in the "fan demand" section in Melee. Fan demand was enough for Mewtwo to get in Melee and it was enough for Mewtwo to be prioritized over a second-gen Pokemon. With Mewtwo now likely the most wanted character for SSB4, it could very well get priority over a new Pokemon (of which it'd probably be Zoroark, assuming we get one).

As for being properly represented without a 5th gen Pokemon, I believe that it can be done towards others methods; stages, musics, and especially the Pokeball. That's not to say that we shouldn't get a 5th gen rep as I do agree that a situation in which Brawl's Pokemon return along with Mewtwo and a 5th gen rep (Genesect/Meloetta/Zoroark/Victini in that order) would be the most ideal, but if it came down to a seven character situation, I wouldn't say there's an urgent need to represent it with a playable character with Brawl's cast and Mewtwo already considerably more popular and having made a bigger impact on the Pokemon scene than anything that 5th gen could offer.

(and this is more of what I think, but I don't think any specific addition "needs" to be in. A combination of good to great additions will surely help sales, but I don't think any potential addition has what it takes to make a noticeable different in sales; not even Mega Man)
---
edit: - Toad
- King K. Rool
- Ridley
- Mewtwo
- Little Mac
- Mii
- Mega Man

If we only want additions filled with "all-stars" or "deserving" additions, this is pretty much all we're going to get. At this rate, less than half of potential candidates can argue to be "all-stars". Heck, I would even argue that many characters already in Melee or Brawl aren't "all-stars". "All-stars" and "deserving" are such subjective term that all it really does is unfairly exclude good or great choices (would have thrown Duck Hunt Dog into there as well given how recognizable he is, but he has no chance and I don't need anyone to get on my case).

The reason why we can hope for more than ten newcomers is not because they're "all-stars" but because the potential candidates we do have are good characters in their own rights and in some cases, have interest from Sakurai (Saki and Takamaru being the best example).

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Responses in Lime Green.

OK, this will be my first crack at a prediction roster, and it will be in list form. Tell me any comments (I have only added one Yoshi newcomer!!!)
Mario:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.

I added bowser junior, not only from personal bias, but because he is very largely requested, and is a major plot point in the mario series.
I won't argue this too much, because it isn't a bad choice. I personally feel that at this point, Toad is far more likely than Bowser Jr., and some will even question the idea of Mario even getting a newcomer. Still, Bowser Jr., isn't a bad choice.

DK:
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
King K Rool

I added K rool because he is the second most requested character, and is incredibly relevant to the series.
K. Rool is perfect, but I would also add Dixie. Two newcomers in one series isn't a crazy idea, it has happened in the past. Dixie is also very popular and is very relevant to the Donkey Kong series. Plus, she was planned for Brawl... that helps her case a lot.

Yoshi:
Yoshi
Baby bros.

Baby bros. has a lot more move-set potential than that of Kamek, from the mario sports games and the stork call for an up B, and Sakurai already feels baby mario is rather important, due to him having a trophy in melee and brawl.
NO YOSHI NEWCOMERS. This is more of a dream/bias pick than a prediction, I'm assuming. This is what makes me question your entire prediction as a whole. The chances of Yoshi getting a newcomer are extremely slim. Baby Mario is important to his own series and Sakurai has acknowledged that with trophies, but not as a playable character. Someone getting a trophy in the past two games does not automatically warrant them a playable spot.

Wario:
Wario

Simples!
Good.

Legend of Zelda:
Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Majora's mask link

Sakurai feels it important to have a child link (not to mention adding young link before ganondorf in melee, and almost not adding Ganondorf at all!) and since both wind waker link and OoT link has gotten in, it looks like it's the final identified young link's turn, Majora's mask! I don't think any one-shots, however relevant to the story they may be, should get in just yet. I also don't believe Vaati should get in right now.
NOT good. Why in the world would Sakurai cut Toon Link? Toon Link represents a vast majority of Zelda games... Majora's Mask Link represents one. It's not his "turn," they were never taking "turns."

Metroid:
Samus/ZSS
Ridley

Everyone knows why Ridley will be in. The single most requested character, done.
Good.

Kid Icarus:
Pit
Palutena

Kid Icarus: Uprising has been voted the most popular game for 3DS, and Palutena deserves to be in if Kid Icarus does get a new rep.
I myself question the idea of a Kid Icarus newcomer, but I won't complain here because it is certainly possible and Palutena is the obvious choice. I'm just glad you didn't put two Kid Icarus newcomers up there... *shudder*

Ice climbers:
Ice climbers

Done.

R.O.B series:
R.O.B

Kirby:
Kirby
King Dedede
Meta-knight

There are lots of possible newcomers for the Kirby series, but with places tight, my money is that none are quite deserving enough right now.

Pikmin:
Olimar

Yeah, I don't think that Pikmin should get a new rep for 2 games or so, unless they start scraping the battle or need last-minute clones like in melee.

Star Fox:
Fox
Falco
Wolf

I can't tell you how much I want Slippy in smash, but this is a prediction roster, not a want roster.

F-Zero:
Captain falcon
Samurai Goroh

Goroh is very popular, and F-zero has actually been voted tenth most popular franchise among boys, this puts it more than worthy of at least 2 reps in smash.
All the above is perfect.

Pokemon:
Pikachu
N
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Meloetta
Mewtwo

N will not be like the current pokemon trainer, but will be a human fighter, using at least one pokemon every move, just like on the new pokemon trainer thread. Getting rid of PT's three pokemon let me add Mewtwo from popularity, and a popular 5th gen. My reason for adding Meloetta over Zoroark is not only personal bias, but due to Zoroark's signature illusion ability being possibly unfeasible to Sakurai (and me), and Meloetta being a simple second choice.
No to N and Meloetta. There is no way the Pokemon Trainer is getting replaced with his current Pokemon, considering they are some of the most popular and iconic Pokemon to ever exist. It's not gonna happen, sorry. And no matter how "unfeasible" Zoroark may seem to you, the team could get his illusion ability to work somehow if they really wanted to, and I would guess that Zoroark would be a much better choice in the fan's and in Sakurai's eyes than Meloetta

Fire emblem:
Marth
Ike
Krom

Krom is in from being the newest lord, simple as that. The backlash won't be very big if Roy isn't in this time around, and it just makes more sense to out in Krom.
I won't argue this too much but I still say that Roy is far more likely simply due to his immense fan demand.

Mother/Earthbound:
Ness
Lucas

No newcomers here.

GaW:
Mr. Game and watch.

Simples!
All good.

Third parties:
Snake
Sonic
Black mage

I think that squeenix should get a rep in smash, and black mage is the most likely in my opinion. Megaman seems a push to get in, really.
Definitely not gonna happen. This one is clearly bias, based on the fact that you started out saying "I THINK squeenix should get a rep in Smash..." Mega Man or Pac-man are probably the only realistic choices for third party characters.

Unrepresented series':

Golden sun:
Isaac

I think that Golden sun should definitely get represented in this game, and Isaac is just more likely than Matthew!

Punch out!!!:
Little mac

Little mac seems almost at a shoo-in position to me, extremely popular and more expecdted than wanted, really.
The above is good as well. I'm a bit skeptical on Isaac but, it's fine.

Wow, not too big at all! Almost too small in fact!
Please post any comments you may have:

It's an okay dream roster, but a very unrealistic prediction roster due to choice such as N, Meloetta, Majora's Mask Link, and ESPECIALLY Baby Mario Bros. and Black Mage (those last two additions kind of kill its credibility). Also, you have no new retros.....

Well, at the time of brawl the newest generation was the 4th gen, and a 4th gen got in. It does hold some weight. The reason characters like P&M and Deoxys are requested is because they are third gen anyway. Plus, there was (probably) a third gen pokemon duo planned for brawl anyway, so that kind of flaws your argument.

We do not know for sure if pra_mai is indeed Plusle & Minun, but even if it was, they still didn't make the final roster. In no way does that "flaw" SmashShadow's argument. In fact, it actually helps. He is pointing out that generation representation is obviously last on the agenda when it comes to Pokemon representation. He is right, too. I don't see how his argument is flawed.

 

[splat]

I'm never said he should replace Lucario in smash cause he shouldn't. What I meant is that he is a good choice Pokemon wise ,as are many others, and that if we're going to have a 5th gen get in it should be him. He is sort of the mascot of 5th gen as well as arguably the most popular pokemon from that gen. Of course he's going to pale in comparison to Lucario's popularity but most Pokemon do.

I'm aware you didn't, but many people do. I was just taking the opportunity to speak my mind.
On the fifth generation subject - I wouldn't be surprised if there was no rep for it in Smash at all. Heck, I would be surprised it there was one, actually. Don't cross out Victini though, I think he's a fair competitor to Zoroark's already slim chances.

Not only that but as far as movies go they do hold some weight. They not only make the character more popular but when you look at the fact that other than Lucario, he's the only non legendary to be the focus of a movie. Most legendary's are going to be put in movies regardless simply because they're legendary's.

Of course they hold some weight - they wouldn't be made if they did not do anything for the reputation/popularity of Pokémon. Though, as we're approaching movie 15, appearing as the main character of a movie does not guarantee anything. Do note that Victini was the star of movie 14.

 

[Deleted member]

*sees Victini discussion*

*shudders*

 

[splat]

Haha I'm no fan of Victini, but even less of Zoroark.

Here's hoping we end up with Pikachu, PT, Jigglypuff, Lucario and Mewtwo.
And Vigoroth. Vigoroth is always good.

 

[Deleted member]

Haha I'm no fan of Victini, but even less of Zoroark.

Here's hoping we end up with Pikachu, PT, Jigglypuff, Lucario and Mewtwo.
And Vigoroth. Vigoroth is always good.

Oh it has nothing to do with me disliking Victini. As a matter of fact, I quite like the Pokemon (don't really care for Zoroark). It's just that it reminds me a lot of when I used to be a massive Victini fanboy and that recently reminded me of that. Wouldn't want to go down that path again.

 

[jigglover]

Actually, if you want a dream roster, then I'll give it to you, make note of dream:

Spoiler

Mario:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser junior

Funny, I'm not actually a huge fan of the mario cast.

DK:
DK
Diddy Kong
Dixie Kong
Lanky Kong
Retro DK
Pauline
Cranky Kong
Funky Kong

I like the DK cast.

Yoshi:
Yoshi
Shy guy
Baby bros
Kamek

These are the only yoshi reps I care overly about.

Wario is cut.

LoZ:
Link
Zelda
Toon link
Young link
MM Link
Ganondorf
Ganon
Sheik
Toon Zelda
Tetra
The pigs from wind waker (it's not THAT strange)
Skull kid
Vaati
Oocoo (Not sure if I spelled it right, you get out the dungeons with him in TP)

I also like LoZ

Metroid:
Samus
Ridley

Not a big metroid fan, at all.

Kid Icarus:
Pit
Palutena
Dark Pit (Pitooey)
Medusa
Hades

Just the main crew !

Ice climbers:
Ice climbers
The polar bear with the sunglasses

Cool! (Terrible pun, I know)

R.O.B:
R.O.B

I can't physically do anything here, except maybe evilsmashbrosfan's virtual boy character !

Kirby:
Kirby
King dedede
Meta knight
Dark Matter
Adeleine
Sailor dee
Prince fluff
Yarn Kirby

meh, not a big fan of kirby, just it's characters!

Pikmin:
Olimar

I don't like Pikmin, I'm sorry.

Star Fox:
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Slippy
Peppy
Panther
Leon

All of the main characters except Krystal!

F-Zero:
Captain Falcon

I do not like F-Zero (Biting off heads is strictly prohibited)

Pokemon:
Pikachu
Ivysaur
Squirtle
N
Snover
Gligar
Piloswine
Plusle and Minun duo
Umbreon and Espeon duo
Wes
Michael
Looker
Galactic grunt
Altaria
Flygon
Swablu
Dunsparce (he's here!)
Qwilfish
Politoed
Starmie
Ferrothorn
Forrotross
Scizor
Tentacruel
Seel
Jigglypuff
My list could go on.

Pokemon is my favourite franchise, and I don't see that changing.

FE:
Ike
Roy
Micaiah

Meh, not a FE fan, but I like Ike in brawl, Roy in melee, and Micaiah looks interesting.

Mother:
Ness

I like Ness' playstyle, but I've never played a mother game and we only need one.

GaW:
Mr. Game and watch
Mrs. Game and watch

Just imagine it!

Third-parties:
Spyro
Snake
Black Mage
Moogle
White Mage
Ninja

I like squeenix, a lot. I also like MGS!

Other reps:
Balloon fight:
Balloon fighter

Pretty much it.

That, my friend, is a dream roster.

 

[splat]

Star Fox:
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Slippy
Pepper
Panther
Leon

All of the main characters except Krystal!

All of the main characters? Where is Peppy?
General Pepper is the Hound.

Because you did it, I too will make a list with my favorite characters, though not to clutter the thread I'll put it in a collapse tag.

Spoiler

Mario

• Mario
• Luigi
• Peach
• Bowser
• Bowser Jr.
• Toad
• Toadsworth
• E. Gadd
• Pianta
• Midbus

I like the Mario universe. Both E. Gadd and Pianta are so darn quirky and awesome.
Midbus always seemed awesome to me as a rival to Bowser. No clue why.


DK

• Donkey Kong
• Diddy Kong
• King K. Rool
• Kritter

I'm just no fan of most of the Kongs.


Yoshi

• Yoshi
• Kamek

Wario

• Wario
• Waluigi

Waluigi, what are you doing here?


Zelda

• Link
• Zelda / Sheik
• Ganondorf
• Tingle
• Impa
• Skull Kid

Metroid

• Samus / Zamus
• Ridley

I never really played Metroid. In all honesty, I don't know many more characters from the series.


Kid Icarus

• Pit
• Dark Pit

Because gods should not be playable.


Kirby

• Kirby
• Metaknight
• King Dedede
• Bandana Dee

I also like Carry Dee, but he might be too close to Bandana Dee. Rick the Hamster would be nice, too.


Pikmin

• Olimar

Enough.


Star Fox

• Fox
• Falco
• Slippy
• Peppy
• Wolf
• Pigma

The old school cast is better than Krystal, in my opinion.


F-Zero

• Captain Falcon
• Black Shadow
• Samurai Goroh

What else to say?


Pokémon

• Pikachu
• Pokemon Trainer - Squirtle / Ivysaur / Charizard
• Jigglypuff
• Mewtwo
• Lucario
• N
• Vigoroth
• Pansage
• Excadrill

I like Pokémon.


Fire Emblem

• Marth
• Ike
• Roy
• Ephraim

Representing each universe within Fire Emblem.


Earthbound

• Ness
• Lucas
• Claus

Over representing the series, but whatever. Lucas and Claus would've been all we needed, but I've grown attached to Ness.


Retro Series

• Mr. Game and Watch (Game and Watch)
• Ice Climbers (Ice Climber)
• ROB (ROB)
• Takamaru (Murasame)
• Mr. Peepers (Duck Hunt)
• Muddy Mole (Mole Mania)
• Mach Rider (Mach Rider)
• Balloon Fighter (Balloon Fight)

Minor Series

• Little Mac (Punch-Out!!)
• Isaac (Golden Sun)
• Grunt (Wars)
• Max (Wars)
• Saki (Sin and Punishment)
• John Raimi (Geist)
• Dillon (Dillon's Rolling Western)
• Tom Nook (Animal Crossing)
• Weakened Tabuu (Smash)
• Mii (Wii)

Lots of oddballs here. Almost every single one listed here is vastly different from everyone else on the character roster.


Third Parties

• Snake
• Sonic
• Pac-Man
• Ratchet and Clank
• Spyro, pre-Skylanders design

Ratchet and Clank will never happen, obviously, but they would fit so darn well in Smash's style. Insomniac makes such great games.

 

[jigglover]

ARGH!
I meant Peppy, I edited it in.

I forgot Spyro!!!

 

[Reyson]

Since people are listing their rosters, can we please agree not to quote the entire thing when replying too it? It creates a cluster****.

As for your roster jigglover, what's with the Wario hate? You've got so many one-shot characters in it yet you cut a character who's had his own games for almost 20 years?

 

[jigglover]

I just don't like Wario. I don't like his design. I don't like his personality. I don't like his games. I don't like his playstyle.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I guess that is all one way to look at it. I myself do not consider Krom a lock at all, simply because I think Roy's popularity alone will win him a spot in Smash. Roy can easily be de-cloned in ways similar to Falco and Ganondorf should he return. Why would he need to stay completely identical to his Melee appearance?

Would I be right in guessing that you view cuts as an inevitable possibility?

But I don't see why Roy's popularity and the fact that he was in a previous Smash Bros. game would get him in over Krom, whose game is selling really well and just came out. Roy could be decloned, but why wouldn't Krom take that moveset instead? Why would you say Roy would beat out Krom?

Like I said, I think Roy is competing with Ike more than Krom. Roy and Ike are more or less in the same situation: each has been in one Smash Bros. game (and so both of them are more popular than most other Fire Emblem characters), both of their games came out a while ago, and they both make appearances in Awakening. The only differences are that Roy's game sold better in Japan and that Ike was in the more recent Smash Bros. game.
I can see Ike getting cut and Roy being added, but just like Pokemon, I don't think Fire Emblem won't get a new character.

I don't think cuts are inevitable, but unfortunately I do think that we'll at least see a few. I think Ike would be first on the list unless Snake doesn't make it back for whatever reason, too. I would have said that Lucario and Ike would be the most likely characters to get dropped, but I'm getting convinced more and more that Nintendo still wants to push him and that he'll stick around.

On Mewtwo and Roy: One thing to point out is that they are some of the most popular characters right now. On our Smashboard poll, Mewtwo is above every other Pokemon. Roy, from what I've heard, is the most popular character in Japan. Besides this, from what we've seen on the disc, they were always meant to return and I dont think there will be a problem with the next game. I do agree there is some advertising, but I don't think Sakurai will add the newest characters just because.

Good to see you here though!

Yeah, I mean, I do think Mewtwo is more likely to get in than any Pokemon newcomer barring a fifth-gen Pokemon and that Roy is the clear fourth choice for a Fire Emblem character with the third being Krom. I won't argue that either of those characters are unlikely; I know they were planned to come back, that they probably made it farther than any of the other cut Brawl characters, and that there's a pretty solid amount of fan demand for both - but I do think that Nintendo is going to keep moving forward, and because of that, I'm not extremely confident that they'll both return.

Personally, I don't think there is any "accurate representation" for the Pokemon series at this point. The only way I could have seen that happening is if they added in 1 character from each gen. We already have 5 Pokemon from 1st gen and have none from 2nd or 3rd gen as reps. This leads me to believe that they are either placed in because they are extremely popular(Mewtwo, Lucario), mascots of the series(Pokemon trainer, Pikachu) or easily implemented due to other characters already in the game(Jigglypuff, Pichu).

If it is a necessity to rep 5th than why isn't it to have pokemon from 3rd gen? The answer is, it's not. Look, Zoroark definately deserves to get in but using the fact that he's from the latest generation doesn't justify him getting in over a more warranted, in every aspect, character like Mewtwo.

I agree with your argument, but not your point. Generation representation is clearly not that important - I do think Sakurai sort of had it in mind, since Plusle and Minun were considered at one point (probably), but we know it's not a deciding factor or anything. But both Melee and Brawl had characters who got in at least partially because they were new Pokemon. I still think this is a very important factor and that, when combined with a Pokemon who could be a good fit for Smash Bros., it will beat out whatever Mewtwo has going for him.

 

[Deleted member]

Why would a moveset that involves a fencing style and flaming sword strikes go to Krom?

If anything, Krom would either have a style similar to Ike's but faster and weaker or have more "flashy" moves involving practical and impractical flips of the sword, like in the cutscene fight between him and "Marth".

 

[---]

I'm guessing Ilpalazzo only thinks we'll be seeing two FE characters while the rest of us are thinking three...

Anyway I might as well start off by asking, why cut Ike and add Krom? And what are some of the differences that Roy/Ike/Krom have between each other to make them each viable candidates under the character criteria? And in Roy/Ike's case how did they get in the game to begin with and how that might apply now?

 

[SmashChu]

Yeah, I mean, I do think Mewtwo is more likely to get in than any Pokemon newcomer barring a fifth-gen Pokemon and that Roy is the clear fourth choice for a Fire Emblem character with the third being Krom. I won't argue that either of those characters are unlikely; I know they were planned to come back, that they probably made it farther than any of the other cut Brawl characters, and that there's a pretty solid amount of fan demand for both - but I do think that Nintendo is going to keep moving forward, and because of that, I'm not extremely confident that they'll both return.

Again, I disagree on the grounds that Smash isn't just an advertisement vehicle. If it was, Nintendo would control the roster. Instead, Sakurai has full control of the roster. The reason Ike is in at all is because he wanted a Fire Emblem characters. And as the data on the Brawl disc showed, he intends to keep most of the cast (only Pichu was gone).

What I'm saying is I don't feel Sakurai would remove a character just to add another, and I don't think there is some kind of order (like a fourth Fire Emblem character). He plans out the roster from the start and if he wanted Krom or another Pokemon character he wouldn't throw an old character under the bus. I'm confident that Sonic was the only reason Mewtwo (and probably Roy too) are not in Brawl. I don't think we'll have the same problem as I don't think there will ever be another Sonic situation ever again.

But that's just what I think. We'll have to see.