Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[ChikoLad]

I have no idea why you guys are having a continued conversation with someone that refuses to change his mind. Just focus on something else or wait until someone with a more open mind is willing to arrive, you all are just wasting your energy.

It is a shame that Ike is so poorly received by so many other people though, and it really does show that if Ike didn't require a different mind-set entirely going from Brawl - Smash 4 that Ike would be received a lot better as there would be more Ike's that abuse his combo game and his almost lagless aerials.

My mind is perfectly open. If you have something that turns the MU on it's head, feel free to provide it.

I have yet to see that though, from anyone. You all insist that I simply don't "get" Ike, but I am fully aware of what he can do. Again, I accounted for these things you are mentioning, and I don't think Brawl Ike = Smash 4 Ike. However, I am basing my MU rating on Smash 4 Ike. If it was Brawl Ike, I'd be giving Ike a much less favourable vote.

 

[MezzoMe]

Literally all Rosalina has to do is wait. Ike is super punishable, and cannot effectively intercept Rosalina in the air at all, you can see anything he tries to pull from a mile away, and her aerial mobility is too good. What I often do is dance around above Ike. If he comes for me, I beat him easy. If he stays on the ground and tries to punish me with a Smash, Tilt, Aether, or Counter, well... he's not going to get me, I literally don't need to make a move until he does, because I can always weave around him and punish him. Lunar Landing is especially a big factor in that, I can literally punish him without suffering any landing lag and can follow up. Luma can also run circles around him in the right hands (I play differently to other Rosalina players, as well as the standard "keep Luma by you", I also practice moving Rosalina and Luma around as separate entities since I understand Luma's controls to a tee. I have done this for whole matches, including just today. It's a surprisingly under-developed playstyle in the community at large, because nobody wants to think about controlling two characters at once). Ike is also super easy to juggle for ages with U-air, he often can't escape before hitstun goes away. Also, we have just as much power as he does, but are way faster than him.
I would actually give the MU something as drastic as 85:15 in Rosalina's favour, but Ike does have a few saving graces:

- He does have formidable range

-Aether makes low gimping near the edge nearly impossible. If you want to gimp Ike, you have to stage spike him, or low gimp him further away from the stage. And even then, he can potentially drag you down with him with his Aether, if you are not fast enough. I generally don't think it's necessary to gimp him, but it is a less viable option, and it's something Rosalina is normally excellent at, so it does mean something.

-We can't afford to make silly mistakes at high percents, since he will launch us far. However, this is offset by the fact we have way more options and just control the flow of the battle entirely.

-His B-air is legitimately something we need to watch out for. It's his fastest and strongest aerial, and it's the one he will most likely try to KO us with. Unlike most other characters, Ike can get Rosalina with it at ground level, due to her tall frame.

However, I find these points nuisances as opposed to game changers. It just means we can't play rushdown or anything as much as normal. Rosalina will dominate him if she plays patiently though.

Two things:
1. Ike has actually faster air speed than Rosalina(1.08 vs. 1.00)
2. From my experience, Ike nearly always dies before Rosalina even without DI when hitting her with Aether, so that shouldn't be much of a problem most of the time barring the case where Rosalina has a stock disadvantage, since Rosalina's damage is often more precious to her than Ike's is to him.

 

[Karinole]

70-30 in Rosie's favor. I love ike but his range in this game is terrible for how offensive he's supposed to be. Because of this rosalina punishes him all day and luma prevents him from ever getting in. Rosalina should pretty much beat ike every time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Anyway, I do respect sonicbrawler182's ratio input, since that's how he sees the match-up. But in the end, what truly matters is the overall average that I get for adding up all the ratio inputs that the other users made.

If you're just taking w/e numbers random people throw up with little to no explanation, there is no point in bothering to ask us as other character uses to talk about it. Those people don't discuss at all, but by the sounds of things have an equal vote no matter how clueless they are.

If its simply taking the ratios no matter what, then I say 100:0 in Ike's favour. Only way to balance out the meaningless 3 line "7-3" votes that are flooding in.

You're free to continue this method if you want wildly laughable MU numbers and be like some of the Brawl character boards. If you want real numbers to even have a hope of showing up at this point in the metagame (particularly when lots of people don't even want to put numbers to their opinions yet), you need a completely new method.

When you want an actual discussion without worthless posts or stubborn individuals who don't seem to realize that they don't actually know what they're talking about, let us know. Until then, there is no point in us or any other character board taking part in the discussions in this topic.

 

[ChikoLad]

Only way to balance out the meaningless 3 line "7-3" votes that are flooding in.

My initial post when asked for why I gave my rating:

Literally all Rosalina has to do is wait. Ike is super punishable, and cannot effectively intercept Rosalina in the air at all, you can see anything he tries to pull from a mile away, and her aerial mobility is too good. What I often do is dance around above Ike. If he comes for me, I beat him easy. If he stays on the ground and tries to punish me with a Smash, Tilt, Aether, or Counter, well... he's not going to get me, I literally don't need to make a move until he does, because I can always weave around him and punish him. Lunar Landing is especially a big factor in that, I can literally punish him without suffering any landing lag and can follow up. Luma can also run circles around him in the right hands (I play differently to other Rosalina players, as well as the standard "keep Luma by you", I also practice moving Rosalina and Luma around as separate entities since I understand Luma's controls to a tee. I have done this for whole matches, including just today. It's a surprisingly under-developed playstyle in the community at large, because nobody wants to think about controlling two characters at once). Ike is also super easy to juggle for ages with U-air, he often can't escape before hitstun goes away. Also, we have just as much power as he does, but are way faster than him.

I would actually give the MU something as drastic as 85:15 in Rosalina's favour, but Ike does have a few saving graces:

- He does have formidable range

-Aether makes low gimping near the edge nearly impossible. If you want to gimp Ike, you have to stage spike him, or low gimp him further away from the stage. And even then, he can potentially drag you down with him with his Aether, if you are not fast enough. I generally don't think it's necessary to gimp him, but it is a less viable option, and it's something Rosalina is normally excellent at, so it does mean something.

-We can't afford to make silly mistakes at high percents, since he will launch us far. However, this is offset by the fact we have way more options and just control the flow of the battle entirely.

-His B-air is legitimately something we need to watch out for. It's his fastest and strongest aerial, and it's the one he will most likely try to KO us with. Unlike most other characters, Ike can get Rosalina with it at ground level, due to her tall frame.

However, I find these points nuisances as opposed to game changers. It just means we can't play rushdown or anything as much as normal. Rosalina will dominate him if she plays patiently though.

3 lines eh? Literally, **** you. You're just being ignorant and salty now.

I agree the number system is flawed, but don't act like everyone else doesn't know what they're talking about. Just because you can't see why someone gives their MU rating, doesn't mean their points on the matter are invalid. Again, you say "BLUH YOU HAVEN'T FACED ANY GOOD IKES", but that's a straw man and nothing more, and the same claim could easily be directed at you, especially since you LITERALLY have barely any experience with the MU, as you said yourself. On the other hand, I main Rosalina, my brother mains Ike, I've fought a lot of other Ike mains, and they DO demonstrate these points you and other Ike mains keep bringing in, claiming I'm not aware of them yet. I still say it's 70:30, and I have plenty of experience to base that on.

 

[PyroTakun]

How many people actually have enough experience in this MU? I for one have played Forte's Rosalina numerous times.

It's definitely in her favor, but not impossible for Ike. Rosa's real advantages are Luma and her U-Air juggles.

Ike gets rid of Luma fairly easily, and is able to kill Rosalina pretty early.

Pre-patch, I could definitely see 70-30 arguments, but now I say 60-40 in Rosa's favor. It's definitely one of the harder MUs for Ike.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

How many people actually have enough experience in this MU? I for one have played Forte's Rosalina numerous times.
It's definitely in her favor, but not impossible for Ike. Rosa's real advantages are Luma and her U-Air juggles.

Ike gets rid of Luma fairly easily, and is able to kill Rosalina pretty early.

Pre-patch, I could definitely see 70-30 arguments, but now I say 60-40 in Rosa's favor. It's definitely one of the harder MUs for Ike.

I agree with you, and did you know Luma does not obey the rules of priority? It tends to catch people off guard since their approaches get beaten out the Luma

 

[Arrei]

Ike does not want to approach directly against Rosa, anyway. With his sword's disjoint range being his main claim to fame and his endlag being his greatest weakness, Ike would be a fool to not account for the Luma's attacks in his spacing.

My experience is limited at best, since I haven't the time to set up many matches that aren't FG, but I have had little issue chewing up most of the Rosalinas I encounter there - for example, the last one I faced made mincemeat of my Ganondorf as expected but Ike was an entirely different story. Using the most of Ike's range, he can smack Luma away from Rosalina with Fair, Nair, and Bair when she tries to defend and still be far enough to not get traded, especially if autocanceling, Luma's very easy to land a hit on with Ike's range when he's separated from Rosa, and it's also very easy to brush it off the stage with any of Ike's followups should the first hit not knock it far enough to make it fall off.

Ike is capable of playing defensively and aggressively fairly well, whereas trying to be defensive doesn't work out too well in Rosalina's favor in this matchup because of his ability to take Luma out with an aerial and still not get punished. Ike thrives on punishing mistakes, as well, and a single jab combo is going to threaten Luma pretty hard. Ike is weak to gimping, but unlike the characters like Sheik that really give him trouble Rosa's not as quick in the air nor is she as well equipped to avoid Aether and still land a good hit on him. On top of being light, Rosalina's recovery also doesn't have a hurt box should she find herself offstage, making it slightly easier to land Eruption on her since Ike can use Ragnell's blade hitbox for the maximum number of frames. Her other option is to recover high, but going helpless above Ike is just about a death sentence for her.

 

[Parcheesy]

I agree with you, and did you know Luma does not obey the rules of priority? It tends to catch people off guard since their approaches get beaten out the Luma

Someone still needs to do all the science for exactly how luma priority works. In the air, I've found luma tends to tie and only protect itself from getting hit whenever it clashes. On the ground, when the luma parties it will often put the opponent in the short clank animation, which Rosalina tends to hit them out of. I'd agree that against sword characters, sending the Luma out and playing as two entities can definitely work out.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Someone still needs to do all the science for exactly how luma priority works. In the air, I've found luma tends to tie and only protect itself from getting hit whenever it clashes. On the ground, when the luma parties it will often put the opponent in the short clank animation, which Rosalina tends to hit them out of. I'd agree that against sword characters, sending the Luma out and playing as two entities can definitely work out.

Kinda off topic but congratulations I saw you took 3rd a tournament.

 

[Cyrrona]

I think this matchup is much closer than some of these scores suggest...I'd probably call it 55:45. Rosalina has impressive range, but unlike Ike's sword, her range is vulnerable. Considering Ike's crazy knockback, this makes most of his toolkit somewhat risky for Luma to challenge directly. Rosalina's weight also puts her at risk of dying much sooner than Ike.

That said, Rosalina is generally the more flexible of the two, especially off-stage--she does a decent job of gimping Ike's linear horizontal recovery. Most of her attacks are quicker than his in execution and cooldown, so she usually has a wider variety of punish options available. Perhaps most importantly, Rosalina has a relatively easy time juggling Ike with UAir (which is disjointed enough to avoid attempted retaliation from Counter). I also agree with Parcheesy's point about sending Luma out in this matchup. Ike struggles against that kind of split offense, and I'd rather intentionally separate and position Luma myself than have Ike bat it off the stage while I'm shielding with it beside me. I find Star Bits really useful in this matchup as well--they disrupt most of Ike's approaches and keep him at bay more safely than some other Luma options. I think all of the above gives Rosalina a slight edge overall, but I certainly wouldn't call it a shutout.

Unrelated to Ike, but I've noticed some other character boards adopting a simpler numerical system for matchups: +2, +1, 0, -1, and -2. (I could also see value in adding +/-3 if people feel like that range isn't descriptive enough.) A narrower spectrum leaves less room for wild discrepancy, so there's some food for thought!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It has come to my attention that I had to make a small change to the rules. From here on out, if you're going to input a ratio for a match-up, please give good reasons for the ratio.

 

[MezzoMe]

I wonder if it was possible that we also had an overview of the match-up gathering the data from the discussion in the OT, such as those in the Zelda, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff and Peach match-up threads, so that someone searching for match-ups can easily find the digital vademecum about the one/ones the player needs, though I can see that this can become quite expensive time-wise.

 

[Xuan Wu]

It is in Rosalina's favor definitely; however, the match-up for Ike is far from impossible.

Although my MU experience against Rosalina is limited only to FG, I did encounter a few that I would consider strong. @AceStarThe3rd, for instance. It has been at least a month or two since we last fought on there, I think. I'm not sure if you remember me.

Sorry if anything said in the following is a reiteration.

Anyway, as for every character, Rosalina is strongest when Luma is present. Luma is an annoyance, allowing Rosalina to attack from a distance, but many of Ike's attacks are capable of easily sending it off-stage (i.e. F-tilt, F-air, B-air, Quick Draw). After five months since SSB4's release, it is still uncertain, even to the Ike boards, whether or not Ike lost range in many of his attacks from SSBB; we were only able to confirm this range reduction in F-air. Despite this, however, F-air now has faster start-up, swings faster, and most importantly, gains the ability to auto-cancel on short hops via the 1.0.4. update. His B-air also retains this property from SSBB. These allow Ike to space, approach, and retreat more safely. Should Rosalina move in to attack, Ike can cover his landing from a short-hopped F-air by immediately using his quicker attacks, such as Jab and D-tilt. Ike's F-tilt is especially helpful as a pivot due to its decent start-up, power, and range.

Attributes aside, now onto recoveries. Rosalina's recovery, although lacking a hitbox, is better as it launches her far and can be angled; the latter quality can especially throw off Ike's edge-guarding attempts. Ike's recovery has been buffed in SSB4, thanks to the combination of gameplay and mechanics changes. The removal of ledge-hogging vastly improves Quick Draw, which can also now be used together with Aether if Quick Draw connects. Aether's horizontal movement was nerfed slightly but Ike's considerably buffed air speed compensates for that. Like in SSBB, Aether can thwart edge-guarding attempts.

As for combos, Rosalina also wins in this category, though Ike's combo game is not too shabby either. Ike's D-tilt before the update was already fast. Now, it inflicts 1% damage more and becomes his main combo tool along with D-throw and U-throw. Unfortunately for Ike, Rosalina's light weight makes her harder to combo compared to other characters, and Ike himself is susceptible due to his status as a heavy.

For edge-guarding, Ike has Eruption. Ledge snap vulnerability renders characters vulnerable for 1 frame and is useful for Eruption's lingering hitbox, which lasts for I forgot how many frames. However, as I have stated previously, Rosalina does not have to aim for the ledge when recovering.

I don't know too much about the customs metagame, but I heard Ike is supposedly a monster with customs enabled, especially when using them to edge-guard. Rosalina's deadly with them, too, I believe. Sadly, videos of customs Ike is lacking at the moment, so Ike being a so-called "beast" with them remains a bold claim to me.

These are what I can recall from my experiences. The match-up is skewed toward one character but shouldn't be as bad as many perceive it to be. Hence, my ratio is...

60:40. Advantage

^-^

 

[9Tales]

Attributes aside, now onto recoveries. Rosalina's recovery, although lacking a hitbox, is better as it launches her far and can be angled; the latter quality can especially throw off Ike's edge-guarding attempts...
[snip]
...For edge-guarding, Ike has Eruption. Ledge snap vulnerability renders characters vulnerable for 1 frame and is useful for Eruption's lingering hitbox, which lasts for I forgot how many frames. However, as I have stated previously, Rosalina does not have to aim for the ledge when recovering.

I actually think you might be giving a little too much credit to Rosalina's Launch Star. If the enemy character is standing on the stage the only safe place to aim is the edge. A Launch Star that doesn't connect with the edge is a field day of landing lag for anyone who wants to punish Rosalina (like even if you're skilled enough to minimize the time you spend in vulnerable tumble) Launch Staring over the edge is totally legit but only if the enemy has committed to going off stage to get you. In that situation pretty much every character is incapable of catching up to Rosalina before she can get her footing. You know? It's a mix up, after Rosalina recovers low once or twice the enemy gets all wound up to jump off and spike her out of her next recover but instead she just shoots over them. Outside of that scenario it's wildly unsafe.

That said Eruption is a heavy lag move itself and Ike's run speed isn't like incredible or anything. So if Ike starts building an eruption while Rosalina is at a higher elevation I think she's safe (in most circumstances) to Launch Star over him without him being fast enough to catch and punish her lag.

Basically what I'm getting at is Rosalina maybe doesn't have to aim for the edge but she almost certainly should unless the enemy has put them selves in a situation were they can't punish her for not going to the edge. Additionally if Ike begins building an Eruption while Rosalina is at lower elevations the angle she has to use to go over Eruption means she has to suffer her landing lag closer to Ike (and spend more time in tumble), meaning he still get's to punish her hard.

The trick is just to hold your footing long enough or space your self high so that Rosalina reaches the elevation where she has to go for a edge snap before you fully commit to some sort of low edge guard on her (or Eruption) And then lastly is the fact that without even testing it I'm pretty sure well timed Eruptions can catch Rosalina's hurt box before she even makes it to the edge snap, like, disregarding that whole one frame of vulnerability deal.

if you play it out right Eruption definitely has a big use as an edge guard tool in this match up.

 

[Parcheesy]

Just going to pop in to point out Luma is free to act if rosa lands on stage with launch star, so the punish you take should at worst be a dash attack. You can go as far as turn the luma with a tilt, and have it advance behind you with jabs while you're still in landing lag. Best case scenario is they run into the desynched luma spin and you get a hard punish yourself.

Landing on stage isn't terribly bad for Rosalina assuming your opponent doesn't make a hard read on the option.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

After a few days of some match-up arguments, Ike's discussion period is now over. As such, I've added up the ratio inputs for the Rosalina vs. Ike match-up to get an average.

[62:38]

This average may be on the sketchy side after what has happened during the discussion period, so I'll just say that the match-up slightly favors Rosalina more.

Now, while Pit did have his discussion period, it's now time for Rosalina to analyze her match-up against Pit's doppelganger, Dark Pit.

 

[mario123007]

Okay, I know that Dark Pit is similiar to Pit, but he still has some minor difference, like his arrows is harder to turn like Pit. Use Electro Arm which is way more powerful than Pits. So I think Dark Pit has slightly advantage against Rosalina than Pit. Dark Pit can also use his arrow to stung Rosalina or take down Luma first. And I hope some of you guy can introduce me some combos of Dark Pit. I really want to know.
The air game between these two I think Rosalina has more advantage, since she has more hitbox of course.
So far I give 60:40

 

[FiXalaS]

Okay, I know that Dark Pit is similiar to Pit, but he still has some minor difference, like his arrows is harder to turn like Pit. Use Electro Arm which is way more powerful than Pits. So I think Dark Pit has slightly advantage against Rosalina than Pit. Dark Pit can also use his arrow to stung Rosalina or take down Luma first. And I hope some of you guy can introduce me some combos of Dark Pit. I really want to know.
The air game between these two I think Rosalina has more advantage, since she has more hitbox of course.
So far I give 60:40

It isn't like that.

The matchup is very similar to Pit, except that Electroshock can send the luma to die by one hit in short stages or omega stages (if hit from mid to edge) because the angle of the knockback is diagonal, luma will be sent off-stage and goes dooowwnn....~

^ 1 point more for Dark Pit, but this point is a strong one as luma is integral in Rosa's play.

Dark Pit's arrows are less intimidating, they can barely be curved and this is 1 point less for Dark Pit.

 

[9Tales]

Generally inclined to agree that Pit is probably just barley better than Dark Pit. In this matchup though having one more tool for KOing Luma prolly slightly out weighs arrow mobility, especially since arrow can't really gimp Rosalina and the general use for arrows is to wrack up a tiny bit more follow up damage after launching an enemy far (Just spam Gravity after you get launched far by Pit) So while in a lot of matches I'd consider Pit barley better, in this one I think it's the reverse. I guess I don't have a strong understanding of arrow tech and what you can do with mobile arrows besides what i already mentioned but from what I know i kind of don't believe Pit and Dark Pit warrant more than a 5:5 difference in any matchup and I think it's even less than that here, so just gonna go with the same ratio I did for Pit 60:40

Here's my post on Pit
(PS Pit and Dark Pit get the same customs and the ability to use each other's arrows so custom Dark Pit > Pit for sure)

 

[Karinole]

55-45 in favor of Rosalina. While I think Rosalina is a overall more powerful character, dark pit has some very useful tools in the matchup, namely the electro arm being able to install kill Luma on shield. The arrow game isn't much of a factor as she has gpull and pittoo's arrows are pretty easy to evade. In neutral they are around equal in that they space similarly and can rack up medium damage combos on each other. Where Rosalina gains an advantage is her superior aerial game wherein her hair beats all his air moves (also beats most of the cast's aerials but whatever). Very close, interesting, and fun matchup.

 

[MezzoMe]

And I hope some of you guy can introduce me some combos of Dark Pit.

Here you go

I don't have enough experience with the match-up, but I'm pretty sure that Pit's vertical knockback kills earlier because of Rosalina's floatiness, though probably not by much.

 

[Wintropy]

Basically everything I said recently with regards to Pit stands here, with the following exceptions:

- Electroshock Arm is more useful for disposing of Luma, since it launches at an angle; however, it's less useful for KOing Rosie as a result
- Arrows are stronger, but can't be controlled as much; this can be mitigated with customs, which allow for free guidance or piercing properties

Beyond that, there's not much of a different between the two Pits. I'd argue this matchup is very slightly better for Dark Pit than Pit, purely because of Electroshock Arm and its ability to KO Luma with greatest ease, but it's still a toughie.

 

[Katakiri]

Hey all, the Meta Knight board is discussing the Rosalina & Luma match-up now. Any input would be appreciated! http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-7-rosalina-luma.395463/

 

[mario123007]

Here you go

I don't have enough experience with the match-up, but I'm pretty sure that Pit's vertical knockback kills earlier because of Rosalina's floatiness, though probably not by much.

Thanks, gonna go and watch it.
If Dark Pit can get a good aim on Rosalina when at air, he can easily KO her.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well, Dark Pit's discussion period is over. Of course, the discussion period was quite empty, but apart from that, here's the ratio average for Rosalina vs. Dark Pit, based on the inputted ratios that I've gotten.

[58:42]

I guess in a way, Dark Pit fights better against Rosalina than how Pit could handle her.

Next up, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against Robin.

 

[mario123007]

Robin has less combos but has many awesome projectiles, can take down Luma first with projectiles like arc fire, of course, Rosalina can just use GP, but when she does that it's Robin's chance to strike.
Rosalina should pay more attention when Robin uses thunder and arc fire. Beware of that when getting close to Robin. When get close also beware not to get cause by Robin's down B (I don't know how to spell Robin's down B move)
I give 50:50 both have equal advantage.

 

[tconan]

I just want to point out that since Robin doesn't have a strong recovery, he is edgeguarded heavily by Rosalina and Luma. If you just look at Dabuz vs. Nairo at Apex, Dabuz just does bair a couple of times and Robin is dead. Happened twice in that set.

 

[TriTails]

I just want to point out that since Robin doesn't have a strong recovery, he is edgeguarded heavily by Rosalina and Luma. If you just look at Dabuz vs. Nairo at Apex, Dabuz just does bair a couple of times and Robin is dead. Happened twice in that set.

Or just D-air him to oblivion since Elwind does not have any hitbox above Robin.

Though, if Robin is equipped with Levin Sword, I'd watch my back. Those aerials hurts, a lot. My Luigi was send off-screen (Not KO'd yet, though, may be related to rage) with an U-air at about 100%, and that is in 3DS' high ceilings, and Luigi is WAY heavier than Rosalina.

Wait, can Luma attack while Robin connected Nosferatu? I figure not because Luma can't attack when Roslaina is grabbed, only when thrown.

 

[mario123007]

I just want to point out that since Robin doesn't have a strong recovery, he is edgeguarded heavily by Rosalina and Luma. If you just look at Dabuz vs. Nairo at Apex, Dabuz just does bair a couple of times and Robin is dead. Happened twice in that set.

I wanna see the match, any videos?

 

[The_Cardinal]

I just want to point out that since Robin doesn't have a strong recovery, he is edgeguarded heavily by Rosalina and Luma. If you just look at Dabuz vs. Nairo at Apex, Dabuz just does bair a couple of times and Robin is dead. Happened twice in that set.

It's true: Robin's pretty easy to gimp. But I also wouldn't use Dabuz vs Nairo at Apex as a framework of how Robin fares against Rosalina because to be blunt, Nairo was off with his Robin game, probably as a result of playing many different characters. If anything, although a bit outdated, their match at the Xanadu 3DS invitational is a slightly better frame of reference. Dabuz was even using the custom starbit at the time.

By the way, when doing these match-up numbers, do you fine Rosalina mains take into account of customs given recent rulesets?

 

[Mondrae205]

My friend used to main robin and although he is better then me and almost always beat me with any other character he could not beat me with robin. Or at least had a very hard time. Although Robin's magic is very potent against luma often knocking him into tumble as long as you stay away from the ledge it should not kill. Thoron is the most useful since you can't react to it, although if you are far enough away you can spam gravitational pull and robin's slow run speed means she can not punish. I believe that nosforatu hurts luma if he is close enough so he can't save you. Robin also has the problem of not being able to combo you or juggle you due to you being light enough to escape her rapid jab and Elfire. Robins sword can cause problems but if (s)he is not careful can run out and then you can have an easy time with them due to your way bigger range.
When Luma dies Rosalina can run away and stall more effectively since robin is slow and you can gravitational pull. Robin's off stage game is worse then Rosalina due to rose recovery but that doesn't mean you can't have to be careful as robin does have a powerful sword that can launch you if you are predictable with how you recover, but you can land on the stage safer against her then most characters (watch out for thoron.)
Robin's grab is short so you should be safe in your shield and they do not get much from their grab when they do get it. When you get a grab tho the juggle is real due to low mobility and a good weight and fall speed you should get quite a few up airs, just watch out for down air).

Overall I say this match up is 65:35 a good matchup for rosalina just be careful of her powerful hits, robin has to play smart to be able to keep up.

It's true: Robin's pretty easy to gimp. But I also wouldn't use Dabuz vs Nairo at Apex as a framework of how Robin fares against Rosalina because to be blunt, Nairo was off with his Robin game, probably as a result of playing many different characters. If anything, although a bit outdated, their match at the Xanadu 3DS invitational is a slightly better frame of reference. Dabuz was even using the custom starbit at the time.

By the way, when doing these match-up numbers, do you fine Rosalina mains take into account of customs given recent rulesets?

We haven't had a ratio for customs on yet but it doesn't hurt to talk about them (other people have). I believe that the idea was to wait until the second round of matchup analysis to have an official ratio for customs on.

 

[ChikoLad]

Wait, can Luma attack while Robin connected Nosferatu? I figure not because Luma can't attack when Roslaina is grabbed, only when thrown.

Actually, it's the other way around - Luma can't attack while Rosalina is being thrown, but can attack while she is being grabbed/pummeled. However, he can still break Rosalina out of a throw if the attack is buffered.

However, he can't attack during command grabs (grabs initiated by any means not involving the universal grab button), which Nosferatu falls under.

 

[The_Cardinal]

My friend used to main robin and although he is better then me and almost always beat me with any other character he could not beat me with robin. Or at least had a very hard time. Although Robin's magic is very potent against luma often knocking him into tumble as long as you stay away from the ledge it should not kill. Thoron is the most useful since you can't react to it, although if you are far enough away you can spam gravitational pull and robin's slow run speed means she can not punish. I believe that nosforatu hurts luma if he is close enough so he can't save you. Robin also has the problem of not being able to combo you or juggle you due to you being light enough to escape her rapid jab and Elfire. Robins sword can cause problems but if (s)he is not careful can run out and then you can have an easy time with them due to your way bigger range.
When Luma dies Rosalina can run away and stall more effectively since robin is slow and you can gravitational pull. Robin's off stage game is worse then Rosalina due to rose recovery but that doesn't mean you can't have to be careful as robin does have a powerful sword that can launch you if you are predictable with how you recover, but you can land on the stage safer against her then most characters (watch out for thoron.)
Robin's grab is short so you should be safe in your shield and they do not get much from their grab when they do get it. When you get a grab tho the juggle is real due to low mobility and a good weight and fall speed you should get quite a few up airs, just watch out for down air).

Overall I say this match up is 65:35 a good matchup for rosalina just be careful of her powerful hits, robin has to play smart to be able to keep up.

I have never had any problem comboing or at least down chasing down Rosalina after Arcfire, especially since she's so tall. Also, no half-decent Robin would rely on dair in any situation. While juggling can be an issue, Robin can at least b-reverse in conjunction with airdodge to escape it and depending on the stage, Elwind as well.

Robin has an easier easier time dealing with Luma when compared to the rest of the cast thanks to arcthunder, thoron, and the levin sword. Depending on the position of the characters, a simple sh levin fair can even do trick. Heck, sometimes dash attack also gets the job done if Rosalina and Luma are seperate. Admittedly, it can be annoying when Luma starts acting like a bodyguard for Rosalina but than be used to our advantage. For example, if Luma is near Rosalina and gets hits by arcthunder, than Rosalina may also be forced to block the arcthunder as well and potentially take a mix-up.

While Rosalina can score an early ko offstage, I would argue Robin is better at koing onstage. Levin uair, a discarded tome (great for baiting gravitational pull when used in sync with another projectile), and a good dsmash punish will tear right through her, potentially scoring a relatively early ko by this game's standard. I, for one, have ko'ed numerous Rosalinas at around 80% with Levin uair.

In my opinion, the match-up is pretty evenish. I would say anywhere from 50:50 to 55:45 in Rosalina's slight favor.

 

[Seleir]

think rosa vs robinis 60 40 for the down b, also is more easyer to hit rosa with the arcfire because she is so large. also sfacvilotto cand die more easier for levin sword. a cons is that robin is more gimpable so it`s easier with rosa gimp robin.

 

[Mondrae205]

I have never had any problem comboing or at least down chasing down Rosalina after Arcfire, especially since she's so tall. Also, no half-decent Robin would rely on dair in any situation. While juggling can be an issue, Robin can at least b-reverse in conjunction with airdodge to escape it and depending on the stage, Elwind as well.

Robin has an easier easier time dealing with Luma when compared to the rest of the cast thanks to arcthunder, thoron, and the levin sword. Depending on the position of the characters, a simple sh levin fair can even do trick. Heck, sometimes dash attack also gets the job done if Rosalina and Luma are seperate. Admittedly, it can be annoying when Luma starts acting like a bodyguard for Rosalina but than be used to our advantage. For example, if Luma is near Rosalina and gets hits by arcthunder, than Rosalina may also be forced to block the arcthunder as well and potentially take a mix-up.

While Rosalina can score an early ko offstage, I would argue Robin is better at koing onstage. Levin uair, a discarded tome (great for baiting gravitational pull when used in sync with another projectile), and a good dsmash punish will tear right through her, potentially scoring a relatively early ko by this game's standard. I, for one, have ko'ed numerous Rosalinas at around 80% with Levin uair.

In my opinion, the match-up is pretty evenish. I would say anywhere from 50:50 to 55:45 in Rosalina's slight favor.

Arcfire is more of a problem then I let on. it always stuffs my approach and even if I do gravitational pull it I can't punish. I wasn't really saying dair was an option they should use, just one to keep watch out for since it has a good disjoint. I forgot about using Elwind to escape since its so risky but I guess that is an option.

While I can agree that luma has a tough time robin can't really chase down rosalina and does not have a downsmash that can cover rolls and does not have much mobility to be able to chase down rosalina. It is annoying when luma gets hit by arcthunder but it should be used sparingly since It can be reacted to, unlike thoron.

I agree with Robin killing onstage better, although I have not had experience dealing with discarded tomes so I don't know how well luma blocks them.

I think it comes down to how well Robin can manage to juggle their abilities to make sure they always have an option and how good rosalina is at baiting them out and playing with a sepperated or KO'd luma. I will change my ratio to 60-40

 

[DisidisiD]

The thing with the Elwind escape is that, if Rosalina senses that Robin is going to try escape that way, a simple gravitational pull leaves them helpless and allows us to continue our juggle. Also, if Robin fires Thoron, one way I like to deal with it is to jump and then use GP. That covers a ton of range, especially if GP is used when Thoron is at the tip of GP's AOE. It works especially well if the Thoron is still exiting the tome, as the tail will hit Robin.

 

[Chapter Serf]

Or just D-air him to oblivion since Elwind does not have any hitbox above Robin.

Though, if Robin is equipped with Levin Sword, I'd watch my back. Those aerials hurts, a lot. My Luigi was send off-screen (Not KO'd yet, though, may be related to rage) with an U-air at about 100%, and that is in 3DS' high ceilings, and Luigi is WAY heavier than Rosalina.

Wait, can Luma attack while Robin connected Nosferatu? I figure not because Luma can't attack when Roslaina is grabbed, only when thrown.

Robin's Uair is really good, and has a nice wide 270 degree arc. It can counter most Dairs. You don't want to be above Robin. @Raziek was whooping my ass with Uairs last night.

And by counter, I don't mean clank. It outright goes through it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The main problem that I seem to find with fighting Robin is how quickly his projectile attacks are fired. That can make it pretty hard for Rosalina to counter them with Gravitational Pull. Even Thoron is a threat with how quickly it gets executed, along with its high movement speed, so Rosalina really needs good reflexes if she wants to use Thoron against Robin.

 

[The_Cardinal]

Arcfire is more of a problem then I let on. it always stuffs my approach and even if I do gravitational pull it I can't punish. I wasn't really saying dair was an option they should use, just one to keep watch out for since it has a good disjoint. I forgot about using Elwind to escape since its so risky but I guess that is an option.

While I can agree that luma has a tough time robin can't really chase down rosalina and does not have a downsmash that can cover rolls and does not have much mobility to be able to chase down rosalina. It is annoying when luma gets hit by arcthunder but it should be used sparingly since It can be reacted to, unlike thoron.

I agree with Robin killing onstage better, although I have not had experience dealing with discarded tomes so I don't know how well luma blocks them.

I think it comes down to how well Robin can manage to juggle their abilities to make sure they always have an option and how good rosalina is at baiting them out and playing with a sepperated or KO'd luma. I will change my ratio to 60-40

I was actually testing earlier today how tomes interact with luma and unfortunately for us Robins Luma takes it like a boss. Having said that, both tomes and luma are small so it's very easy to just lob it over luma and hit Rosalina. Since you said you're unfamiliar with tomes, let me just tell you this: discarded tomes are Robin's fastest AND strongest projectiles clocking in a at whopping 18%. In rare cases it can even break shields. You can use gravitational pull on it and since it's a physical projectile I think you can even grab it, but as a I said before, it's good for baiting so it goes both way.

Dsmash can cover rolls actually and yes, Robin's poor mobility is a detriment in this matchup. Although to be clear, it's only her ground speed that's slow; her airspeed is still about average. Also, it's not as if Rosalina is the fastest thing alive. There will be times when Robin will catch up, depending on the situation. And even if Robin doesn't, just the lack of luma affords Robin much more space which can be enough. We can use that time to charge thunder, let our spells and weapons regenerate and if we're in the lead, we can force the approach, which Rosalina is not the best at.

The thing with the Elwind escape is that, if Rosalina senses that Robin is going to try escape that way, a simple gravitational pull leaves them helpless and allows us to continue our juggle. Also, if Robin fires Thoron, one way I like to deal with it is to jump and then use GP. That covers a ton of range, especially if GP is used when Thoron is at the tip of GP's AOE. It works especially well if the Thoron is still exiting the tome, as the tail will hit Robin.

Elwind is definitely risky but as I said before, it depends on the stage as well. Elwind as an escape option becomes slightly more viable on a stage like Town and City and Delfino.