Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[Random4811]

Rosalina does not have late aerials and Marth's aerials don't out range hers. Marth also cannot use anything like Lunar Landing (Rosalina AT that allows her to throw out Luma's aerials without suffering landing lag at all), but has extremely laggy aerials instead. Rosalina's landing lag is not even near as bad as Marth's either, and also allows her to perform Delayed Lunar Landing.

Marth also falls faster, making him easier to juggle and harder for him to juggle Rosalina.

Marth's aerial performance absolutely does not beat Rosalina's.

Compare her Uair/Dair start up time to Marth's aerials. They are comparatively late. I think even fair and bair are later than Marth's fair and bair.

Also Luma is inconsequential in the air. If Luma is anywhere near Marth in a way that is dangerous to him, he's playing poorly. He should /always/ outspace Luma cause he has no where near the range of Rosa.

Rosa's aerials arent super short or anything. Marth can outspace her though, he outranges her in a key places, or his aerials come out faster. Like Rosa's dair cannot challenge Marth's uair, ever. Its unlikely that her uair can challenge Marth's bair while descending, but she might be able to get that out on him. But Marth's fair outranges Rosa's, I'm almost certain.

She's kind of slower than Marth in the air too. While sure, Marth has more landing lag, with retreating aerials and choosing low lag landing options, Marth will be out of range and less able to be punished for using his aerials. Plus he can easily frame trap her by forcing an airdodge with uair, and then responding with a quick option (like Dsmash, for example) before air dodge's landing lag is up.

IMO Marth's aerial game is better than Rosa's. Only thing aerially she has over him is Lunar Landing, but I've never been particularly bothered by it while fighting Rosa's. Normally I don't have any trouble dealing with Rosa in the air.

I think Rosa's ground game with Luma really limits Marth, but once Luma is gone or has been swatted away, she loses more options and Marth gains several. Plus, shield breaker puts a damper on Luma's usefulness as a meatshield, because it will go right through Luma with its deceptive range for a tipper hit on Rosa, almost every time if you're minding Luma. It will also often kill Luma pretty fast because of its high damage.

I will maintain that in my opinion, it is 60:40 Marth's advantage.

However, based on the number of back and forth answers I've seen between my score, 50:50, and 60:40 rosa's advantage- I'd be willing to bet that the disparity is coming from the matchup being almost neutral, probably actually 55:45 or truly neutral. Any score disparity probably comes from skill gap and familiarity with the MU. We can all agree that neither character is a hard counter for the other, right? Rosa has nothing that Marth can't handle IMO, and Marth has nothing that Rosa can't really deal with either with her large tool kit and ability to stall like Dabuz has so gracefully shown us. They both have options that answer the other's option, but I'm inclined to think that the aerial game is tilted in Marth's direction from personal experience, and discussing the MU with others via Anther's Ladder, and that the ground game can go either way depending on where Luma is, and how safe Marth is playing the MU vs how aggressive Rosa is being.

F-air is sweeping, you can drag people off the ground with it and it does cover slightly above.

And if you are a master with Luma spacing, covering your bases is not a problem. Admittedly, nobody has even nearly reached that stage yet. Rosalina's meta is really in it's infancy.

Marth has grounded answers to Rosa's fair, though. Depending on where she is starting it from, due to her height he can get her easily with Utilt, possibly with Fsmash, probably with the sweep hitbox of Usmash, and even quite possibly with Utilt. All of which cover a wider range than Rosa's fair, and come out quicker before the hitbox of Rosa's fair does.

If your spacing with Luma is truly that magically good, you probably won't see a Marth. You'll be playing high skilled players, almost none of which are willing to try to pick up Marth. In the event that you do, he can answer Luma with retreating aerials depending on where it is, SB easily from anywhere, Ftilt grounded easily, possibly Dsmash, Utilt if Luma is kinda close grounded or a bit farther above, or behind, and maybe Usmash if Luma is close above or in range of the deceptively large feet hitbox of Marth's Usmash.
Gotta remember Luma has limited health. Even if you can save it from every time we knock it off, its gonna pop like a balloon eventually.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

That's completely false. I've never been KO'd by a Marth at lower than 80% (though getting KO'd that low is rare and due to my own carelessness. On average, I don't get worried about being KO'd until 120%).

Marths tipper f smash is to be feared, I died at 89% with captain falcon.

 

[ChikoLad]

Compare her Uair/Dair start up time to Marth's aerials. They are comparatively late. I think even fair and bair are later than Marth's fair and bair.

Also Luma is inconsequential in the air. If Luma is anywhere near Marth in a way that is dangerous to him, he's playing poorly. He should /always/ outspace Luma cause he has no where near the range of Rosa.

Rosa's aerials arent super short or anything. Marth can outspace her though, he outranges her in a key places, or his aerials come out faster. Like Rosa's dair cannot challenge Marth's uair, ever. Its unlikely that her uair can challenge Marth's bair while descending, but she might be able to get that out on him. But Marth's fair outranges Rosa's, I'm almost certain.

She's kind of slower than Marth in the air too. While sure, Marth has more landing lag, with retreating aerials and choosing low lag landing options, Marth will be out of range and less able to be punished for using his aerials. Plus he can easily frame trap her by forcing an airdodge with uair, and then responding with a quick option (like Dsmash, for example) before air dodge's landing lag is up.

IMO Marth's aerial game is better than Rosa's. Only thing aerially she has over him is Lunar Landing, but I've never been particularly bothered by it while fighting Rosa's. Normally I don't have any trouble dealing with Rosa in the air.

I think Rosa's ground game with Luma really limits Marth, but once Luma is gone or has been swatted away, she loses more options and Marth gains several. Plus, shield breaker puts a damper on Luma's usefulness as a meatshield, because it will go right through Luma with its deceptive range for a tipper hit on Rosa, almost every time if you're minding Luma. It will also often kill Luma pretty fast because of its high damage.

I will maintain that in my opinion, it is 60:40 Marth's advantage.

However, based on the number of back and forth answers I've seen between my score, 50:50, and 60:40 rosa's advantage- I'd be willing to bet that the disparity is coming from the matchup being almost neutral, probably actually 55:45 or truly neutral. Any score disparity probably comes from skill gap and familiarity with the MU. We can all agree that neither character is a hard counter for the other, right? Rosa has nothing that Marth can't handle IMO, and Marth has nothing that Rosa can't really deal with either with her large tool kit and ability to stall like Dabuz has so gracefully shown us. They both have options that answer the other's option, but I'm inclined to think that the aerial game is tilted in Marth's direction from personal experience, and discussing the MU with others via Anther's Ladder, and that the ground game can go either way depending on where Luma is, and how safe Marth is playing the MU vs how aggressive Rosa is being.



Marth has grounded answers to Rosa's fair, though. Depending on where she is starting it from, due to her height he can get her easily with Utilt, possibly with Fsmash, probably with the sweep hitbox of Usmash, and even quite possibly with Utilt. All of which cover a wider range than Rosa's fair, and come out quicker before the hitbox of Rosa's fair does.

If your spacing with Luma is truly that magically good, you probably won't see a Marth. You'll be playing high skilled players, almost none of which are willing to try to pick up Marth. In the event that you do, he can answer Luma with retreating aerials depending on where it is, SB easily from anywhere, Ftilt grounded easily, possibly Dsmash, Utilt if Luma is kinda close grounded or a bit farther above, or behind, and maybe Usmash if Luma is close above or in range of the deceptively large feet hitbox of Marth's Usmash.
Gotta remember Luma has limited health. Even if you can save it from every time we knock it off, its gonna pop like a balloon eventually.

I'm not going to address everything here because I don't have time to make long posts (though I still know a lot of what you said is incorrect), and from personal experience, I know that nobody in these threads ever changes their (arbitrary) scores over the course of the 3 day match up discussion period. But the reason why there is a back and forth is because Rosalina's meta is still well in it's infancy, and since Dabuz is the only high profile Rosalina player, he's the only one people reference, and most Rosalina players try to imitate him, and most people in these boards are of that kind. Then you have people like me who take a few notes from him, but try to innovate in areas where he is lacking. As I don't think his play style is the epitome of the character, far from it. That's why I often disagree with a large amount of points in this thread, and don't take it very seriously at the current time.

Marths tipper f smash is to be feared, I died at 89% with captain falcon.

It just about KO's early from the very edge, but nowhere else. You shouldn't get hit by it. But Marth players shouldn't rely on it much either. It can't be thrown out for free.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Marth's discussion period is now over. As such, after adding up all the ratio inputs, here's the ratio average for Rosalina vs. Marth.

[51:49]

The match-up is almost perfectly even here.

Next up, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against the Goddess of Light, Palutena.

On an extra note, here's the updated schedule for after Palutena's discussion period is over.

• 3/16/2015 - 3/18/2015:
• 3/19/2015 - 3/21/2015:
• 3/22/2015 - 3/24/2015:
• 3/25/2015 - 3/27/2015:
• 3/28/2015 - 3/30/2015:
• 3/31/2015 - 4/2/2015:

 

[mario123007]

Both Rosalina and Palutena have same speed attacks, and both have long attack range. Palutena can easily KO Rosalina, however, if Rosalina does a good air game on Palutena, she might have some advantages, and of course, Luma.

I fairly give 65:35, Rosalina has a bit upper hand.

I might change when there's more advance analysis arrives.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ mario123007 : You kind of goofed up with your ratio input there.

 

[Wintropy]

Okay, this matchup isn't nearly as much of a nightmare as Pit's is, but it's still a bit tricky.

Palutena has slow moves and wants to read her opponent before committing, so this can be used to Rosie's advantage. Palutena prefers to space her opponent and set them up for combos and punishes, so circumventing her defenses with quick strikes and forcing her to play at close range can be dangerous for the goddess.

That being said, while Palutena lacks close-range options for the most part, her greatest tool will come into play here: her jab. It activates stunlock and can setup for a grab combo or, at high percents, a u-smash. Both can be extremely dangerous, the former because of its setup for the ubiquitous d-throw -> u-air combo (juggles for days, kills at high percents), the latter because the base of u-smash is almost a guaranteed KO at high percents. She can also space with f-air and n-air, but jab is really what you want to be careful of.

As always, Luma is your greatest asset here. Palutena can use Autoreticle to lock you down, but Luma will automatically absorb the shots instead and acts as a great meat shield for Palutena's close-range options. This means that Palutena will have to get creative to get to Rosie, e.g. dash attack (invincibility frames, absolute priority) to blitz through Luma and launch Rosie, f-air (fast, string potential) to bat Luma away and follow-up on Rosie with a landing strike. Luma Shot is almost useless here, as a good Palutena will read it and send it right back with Reflect. Likewise, trying to bait and punish Palutena with distant Luma is tricky, as Palutena's excellent dash speed and invincible dash attack and b-air can get her out of a tight spot if needs be; and failing that, Counter can stave off Luma, but it's not recommended. You'll want to keep Palutena at arm's length and soften her up before you try to get the kill, since getting in jab or grab range will put you in a very dangerous spot indeed - so let Luma do the heavy lifting at first, while being prepared to get stuck in if Luma's defenses are compromised and you see an opening.

Palutena's greatest strength here is your frailty: Rosie's huge hitbox and lightweight physique makes her combo bait for Palutena, and getting hit with a u-air string or u-smash is going to hurt like hell. Her moves are slow, but they pack a punch, and when Luma is out of the picture, you need to be very careful: any damage racked up during the Luma phase, as with Pit, will allow Palutena to get more aggressive and force you into a tight spot to get the kill. Palutena is also difficult to juggle and combo in mid-air, as Warp will allow her to instantly get out of danger, and she can read the vector of your recovery and punish it with a u-smash if you fly over the stage. Basically, any sloppy mistake or unnecessarily aggressive tactics will get you punished by Palutena, and you'll suffer for it. Likewise, Palutena is very easy to read if she isn't being played well, so use that to your advantage and hit her when an opening presents itself. Just take care not to get too close to her or let her invade your own space, as playing right into her hand means you're liable to get punished hard.

It's close, but I think Rosie's superior range and defensive options, plus her weaker yet faster moves, put her slightly above Palutena. I think Rosie just about has the advantage here.

55 : 45 ​

 

[ChikoLad]

65:35 in Rosalina's favour at the least. That's my rating.

 

[Puppyfaic]

Default Palutena struggles in this matchup. She lacks reliable moves to kill Luma. Her Dash Attack can work, but it has enough end lag to be hard punished with any smash attack Rosalina wants. Palutena relies a lot on her Fair but that just won't cut it in this matchup; it doesn't knock Luma away and it can be out-spaced with Star Bits, or beaten out-right with up tilt/up smash.

Things aren't all bad for Palutena, though. While she definitely struggles to get in, once she does, Rosalina has to fear for her very life. Palutena has a Hoo Haa, and it kills significantly earlier than Diddy Kong's. Palutena's moves are strong, and she has one of the better dash grabs in the game. Her punish game is incredible, and if Rosalina messes up, she might very well pay for it with a stock. Rosalina's lack of weight and being one of the slowest fallers in the game means that down throw -> Up air can kill as early as 80%. All her smashes kill around the same range as well.

60:40, Rosalina's favor.

 

[9Tales]

Played around with Palutena a little. It's not like impossible to be good with her but she's kind of like Charizard or Ganondorf or something were at any point in the neutral you only have like 2 ish safe options at most. Most of her moves are so cool down heavy (and she herself is so big) that she's basically relying on reads to avoid getting punished for most of her stuff. My current perception is 70:30 Standard play and then 40:60 Customs on, because her ability to apply safe pressure, follow you off stage, or really just have any sort of movement option at all becomes really intense with Lightweight and Super Speed (plus Explosive Flame gives her a really solid tool in the neutral as well that also makes good combos) Tbh I might be underselling her a little bit customs off... not sure

Personally I'm a big fan of tournaments that allow customs for her and Miis. I really like playing as her when I'm playing for fun and it's extra fun to use her customs.

 

[Random4811]

I'm not going to address everything here because I don't have time to make long posts (though I still know a lot of what you said is incorrect), and from personal experience, I know that nobody in these threads ever changes their (arbitrary) scores over the course of the 3 day match up discussion period. But the reason why there is a back and forth is because Rosalina's meta is still well in it's infancy, and since Dabuz is the only high profile Rosalina player, he's the only one people reference, and most Rosalina players try to imitate him, and most people in these boards are of that kind. Then you have people like me who take a few notes from him, but try to innovate in areas where he is lacking. As I don't think his play style is the epitome of the character, far from it. That's why I often disagree with a large amount of points in this thread, and don't take it very seriously at the current time.



It just about KO's early from the very edge, but nowhere else. You shouldn't get hit by it. But Marth players shouldn't rely on it much either. It can't be thrown out for free.

I implore you to counter my points if you find something incorrect. It will only hurt your young meta to have "incorrect" information.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not going to address everything here because I don't have time to make long posts

Also anything said in this thread doesn't hurt much of anything. It isn't a super analytical discussion board, the numerical ratio system alone should tell you that.

 

[Wintropy]

Incidentally, just to add that with customs on...

Yeah, it becomes a whole 'nother ball game.

Super Speed can blitz through Luma and Rosie alike, and allows for substantial followup combos (n-air, f-air, even u-air if done right), and it improves Palutena's approach options tenfold; Lightweight makes her a much more slippery target and ensures she can go deep off-stage for early kills, and u-air can chase into the upper blast zone for even earlier kills; Jump Glide makes Palutena almost impossible to gimp and she can use it to retreat from Luma pressure; Angelic Missile is a decent kill move in its own right and covers decent range when activated, and then there's all the other moves you can play with. I'm just listing examples that I think are particularly useful in this matchup.

Basically Palutena can be customised into a rushdown combo machine, allowing her to knock Luma aside and catch Rosie a blindside with her powerful airgame. The only noticeable drawback here is that she has to go full-on aggro to be effective in this set, as moves like Reflect and Counter have little use. You may want to pull back and play defensively here, as Luma Shots and Star Bits will intercept Super Speed, and look for openings to exploit Lightweight's damage increase. I think Palutena potentially has a huge advantage with customs on, either way - it really does shake up her entire character in incredible ways, and makes up for some otherwise tough matchups with its variety and distinction.

30 : 70 ​

 

[Puppyfaic]

You can't forget that Rosalina gains what is one of the best projectiles and spacing tools in the game with customs. Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit makes her an absolute menace. Shooting Star Bit stops Super Speed in its tracks, and then Palutena can't use it until it's off cooldown, which throws off her rushdown game immensely. And if you don't think you can get a Shooting Star Bit out in time, or if Palutena is running Reflect, you can use Luma Warp to get behind her and attack her.

 

[Wintropy]

You can't forget that Rosalina gains what is one of the best projectiles and spacing tools in the game with customs. Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit makes her an absolute menace. Shooting Star Bit stops Super Speed in its tracks, and then Palutena can't use it until it's off cooldown, which throws off her rushdown game immensely. And if you don't think you can get a Shooting Star Bit out in time, or if Palutena is running Reflect, you can use Luma Warp to get behind her and attack her.

Most Palutena players pack Lightweight to mitigate Super Speed's cooldown, and Super Speed to balance Lightweight's super-heavy frames. So briefly losing one isn't much of an issue if you have the other - even with Lightweight itself, her rushdown game is significantly improved.

As for Luma Warp, that is true and well said, but it's also why Palutena players tend to back a get-out clause in their set. Warp is the default option, as it enables intangible movement in any direction with minimal landing lag, but Jump Glide can also be useful for covering pretty much the whole stage in a single leap (its only noticeable drawback is its limited vertical recovery). Sneaking up on Palutena is also tricky by default, since that opens up the option for a quick b-air: near-instant startup frames and absolute priority, plus it's a reliable kill move. It may work a couple of times if you get the jump on her, but a good Palutena player will read your approach and punish accordingly.

 

[Puppyfaic]

Rosalina shouldn't be approaching in the first place, which is why I believe she wins this matchup. Palu has to go on the offensive in this matchup, which is what makes it hard for her, since she's normally played defensively. If Palu goes with Auto Reticle, Rosalina can just absorb the projectiles and fire back with Shooting Star Bit if Palu is packing Super Speed or reflect, or Luma Warp if she's packing Reflect. Rosa wins the long-range game and Palu has to respect it, since she has no high-priority way in aside from Dash Attack.

 

[Wintropy]

Rosalina shouldn't be approaching in the first place, which is why I believe she wins this matchup. Palu has to go on the offensive in this matchup, which is what makes it hard for her, since she's normally played defensively. If Palu goes with Auto Reticle, Rosalina can just absorb the projectiles and fire back with Shooting Star Bit if Palu is packing Super Speed or reflect, or Luma Warp if she's packing Reflect. Rosa wins the long-range game and Palu has to respect it, since she has no high-priority way in aside from Dash Attack.

Agreed, but I think you're oversimplifying it somewhat. Palutena has the toolkit to go full-on aggro if she needs to, defensive Palutena only really applies to her default set. Autoreticle is only ever used for lockdown or pressure, it's not intended as a damage tool and not much is lost if Rosie can nullify it. And anyway, she has more sets besides Super Speed / Lightweight - that's just a popular combo. There's a near-infinitesimal amount of possible sets here, it's just a case of discerning which works best and applying it with the necessary clarity.

Palutena is normally played defensively - keyword here being "normally". Her default moveset has a lockdown, reflect, teleport and counter option: all decent tools for playing on the defensive. The rest of her moveset follows suit based on what basic set you're packing: if you go for a rushdown aggro set, you'll realise she is just as capable of playing offensively. Her n-air, f-air, b-air and u-air all have rushdown applications, especially with the expiated approach of Super Speed / Lightweight, and her smashes can be useful when the opponent has been pushed into a corner and is being pressured to act. She needs to respect Rosie's ranged options, but it's not difficult to work on a set to mitigate that - part of the integrity of customs is working out which set works best for any particular opponent. The fact that Palutena can cover practically the entire stage with minimal effort with at least three of her customs (Super Speed, Lightweight and Jump Glide) and follow up with a plethora of decent pressure and KO options means that, irrespective of whether she wins the matchup or not, she can make things very difficult for Rosie. Palutena is a character of strategy and contingency: one plan collapses, do something else, and keep at it, using whatever tricks and tactics necessary to get the kill.

 

[ChikoLad]

It's still in Rosalina's advantage with customs on, no lower than 60:40. Luma Guardian stops Lightweight and Super Speed no problem, it's like the perfect counter. It would also still protect against Auto Reticle too, not that it's ever much of a threat. Rosalina could literally stand there all day and mess with Palutena's approach all she wants. She could even place Luma out on the field and just use him as a land mine with this too, which would pop Palutena up at mid percentage and up, and can be followed up on, meaning fast movement is really risky.

Also Lightweight makes Palutena....well, lightweight. Begging to be KO'd or juggled, something Rosalina excels at. Luma Guardian would pop her up with even more hitstun in this state.

This is all ignoring the fact that these moves are easy to dodge by default. My friend uses Palutena with customs, and he's never given me any trouble as default Rosalina.

I honestly don't think customs improve Palutena's position that much in this match up, even without Rosalina using customs. Assuming Rosalina is using customs, using Super Speed and Lightweight is just asking to be KO'd earlier and Rosalina would now have access to the perfect counter to the move, so I'd actually be inclined to say Palutena is worse off there.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

I don't play against Rosalina very often and I've never come across a good one, so I have very little experience in this matchup. Just came here to clear a few things up.

It's still in Rosalina's advantage with customs on, no lower than 60:40. Luma Guardian stops Lightweight and Super Speed no problem, it's like the perfect counter. It would also still protect against Auto Reticle too, not that it's ever much of a threat. Rosalina could literally stand there all day and mess with Palutena's approach all she wants. She could even place Luma out on the field and just use him as a land mine with this too, which would pop Palutena up at mid percentage and up, and can be followed up on, meaning fast movement is really risky.

Also Lightweight makes Palutena....well, lightweight. Begging to be KO'd or juggled, something Rosalina excels at. Luma Guardian would pop her up with even more hitstun in this state.

This is all ignoring the fact that these moves are easy to dodge by default. My friend uses Palutena with customs, and he's never given me any trouble as default Rosalina.

I honestly don't think customs improve Palutena's position that much in this match up, even without Rosalina using customs. Assuming Rosalina is using customs, using Super Speed and Lightweight is just asking to be KO'd earlier and Rosalina would now have access to the perfect counter to the move, so I'd actually be inclined to say Palutena is worse off there.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Palutena can kill almost everyone around 50% with Lightweight D-throw>N-air>U-air. I've even heard that kills from as low as 20% are possible under certain circumstances! So while we may die earlier (Slightly. We only take 1.2x more damage while it's active, which isn't that bad), we're killing you earlier, too. Much earlier.

Of course, getting in is difficult and I don't think we have a reliable way to get rid of Luma, but once we're there we can rack up damage quickly. Just a few B-airs and we're ready to take a stock.

Also, if Rosalina has the tools to stop Palutena from blindly rushing in with Super Speed and Lightweight, then Palutena shouldn't be blindly rushing in with Super Speed and Lightweight, haha. Shooting Star Bit, Luma Warp, and Luma Guardian can all be blocked, can't they? Inching forward by dashing/SHFFing and blocking/airdodging seems like the best bet, at least in theory.

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't play against Rosalina very often and I've never come across a good one, so I have very little experience in this matchup. Just came here to clear a few things up.



You seem to be ignoring the fact that Palutena can kill almost everyone around 50% with Lightweight D-throw>N-air>U-air. I've even heard that kills from as low as 20% are possible under certain circumstances! So while we may die earlier (Slightly. We only take 1.2x more damage while it's active, which isn't that bad), we're killing you earlier, too. Much earlier.

Of course, getting in is difficult and I don't think we have a reliable way to get rid of Luma, but once we're there we can rack up damage quickly. Just a few B-airs and we're ready to take a stock.

Also, if Rosalina has the tools to stop Palutena from blindly rushing in with Super Speed and Lightweight, then Palutena shouldn't be blindly rushing in with Super Speed and Lightweight, haha. Shooting Star Bit, Luma Warp, and Luma Guardian can all be blocked, can't they? Inching forward by dashing/SHFFing and blocking/airdodging seems like the best bet, at least in theory.

That would be fine if that wasn't a completely punishable strategy. With Rosalina especially, she has a unique technique that pseudo-extends the range of her dash grabs to a high degree, as well as making them more accurate, making "inching in", especially with shields, a really unsafe move. And since Rosalina has long lasting and long ranged aerials and great aerial control, she can catch you in your air dodges very easily. And in general, Rosalina WANTS you to be trying to inch in. That means she has total control of the stage. If you are in a position where you are "inching in", you are not in the neutral - you are at a blatant disadvantage.

Also almost everyone =/= literally everyone, until I see proof that it is consistently doable on (a non training dummy) Rosalina, it means jack in this match up. And even if it does work, it doesn't automatically tip the scales in Palutena's favour, since you're not gonna be let pull it off very easily.

At the end of the day, Rosalina can exploit Palutena far more than Palutena can hope to exploit her.

 

[mario123007]

@ mario123007 : You kind of goofed up with your ratio input there.

Whoops, I was in a little hurry.
I'll correct that.

 

[Wintropy]

At the end of the day, Rosalina can exploit Palutena far more than Palutena can hope to exploit her.

I really, really, really, really doubt that's true.

Either you're playing some really terrible Palutena players or you're a god-level Rosaluma player, because there is no way that Palutena is as predictable and punishable as you're insinuating.

 

[ChikoLad]

I really, really, really, really doubt that's true.

Either you're playing some really terrible Palutena players or you're a god-level Rosaluma player, because there is no way that Palutena is as predictable and punishable as you're insinuating.

The vast majority of her normals have an insane amount of cooldown/landing lag, often times for a lackluster pay off upon a connected hit.

That is literally the definition of a a punishable character, and then some.

By contrast, Rosalina has a Luma that can punish punishes, shield her, and enable her to throw out (often times mid to high launching) attacks with absolutely no landing lag, start-up, or cooldown on her end. And beats Palutena easily in all of these areas even without Luma.

I'm honestly am not going to take things further if it's, yet again, going to devolve into "WELL THE PLAYERS YOU PLAY MUST BE TERRIBLE", as it tends to do in this thread, as I am sensing a repeat of the Zelda MU discussion period (albeit to a smaller degree) already. We're not doing that again. It's not productive, it's disrespectful, and it's egoism using a fictional character as the vehicle for it.

 

[Wintropy]

The vast majority of her normals have an insane amount of cooldown/landing lag, often times for a lackluster pay off upon a connected hit.

That is literally the definition of a a punishable character, and then some.

I'm honestly am not going to take things further if it's, yet again, going to devolve into "WELL THE PLAYERS YOU PLAY MUST BE TERRIBLE", as it tends to do in this thread, as I am sensing a repeat of the Zelda MU discussion period (albeit to a smaller degree) already. We're not doing that again.

And? Writing off her moves for such arbitrary reasons demonstrates a lack of faith in the opposing character, which I find to be quite detrimental to cohesive and progressive matchup discussions.

The point is that you don't let the opponent punish you. If they are, then they're not playing Palutena well. Quite bluntly, that's the crux of the issue. You seem to be disregarding the fact that Rosaluma is also punishable in their own way, which is exactly what Palutena is best at taking advantage of in any matchup.

Apologies if my comment has incensed you in some way, but you're doing little to progress this discussion in any meaningful way. You're not offering any balanced argument or robust justification for your perspective, just pointing out how Rosaluma apparently beats every character presented to you. I glanced at the Marth matchup earlier out of interest, and likewise, you did not seem to provide adequate counter-analysis of the opposing character; rather, you merely debunked the opponent's suggestions as being "incorrect" and "arbitrary", to the extent that the discussion seemed to reach a stalemate. I don't care if that's how you do things, more power to you, but I find that it is very unhealthy in a civilised debate to behave in such a manner and to not address all aspects of the matchup when that is quite clearly the purpose of the thread.

To wit: please tell us what Rosaluma's weaknesses are, rather than pointing out our own character's weaknesses. This thread is just as much for the opponents' benefit as it is for you players' benefit.

 

[Puppyfaic]

Also, if Rosalina has the tools to stop Palutena from blindly rushing in with Super Speed and Lightweight, then Palutena shouldn't be blindly rushing in with Super Speed and Lightweight, haha. Shooting Star Bit, Luma Warp, and Luma Guardian can all be blocked, can't they? Inching forward by dashing/SHFFing and blocking/airdodging seems like the best bet, at least in theory.

Point is, it means we negate your customs. At which point, you're basically a regular Palu against a custom Rosa. Also, if you're lacking in MU experience, I'd love to play you. I enjoy fighting good Palus.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

That would be fine if that wasn't a completely punishable strategy. With Rosalina especially, she has a unique technique that pseudo-extends the range of her dash grabs to a high degree, as well as making them more accurate, making "inching in", especially with shields, a really unsafe move. And since Rosalina has long lasting and long ranged aerials and great aerial control, she can catch you in your air dodges very easily. And in general, Rosalina WANTS you to be trying to inch in. That means she has total control of the stage. If you are in a position where you are "inching in", you are not in the neutral - you are at a blatant disadvantage.

If we're close enough that shielding means we could be grabbed, then we should stop shielding so much and start throwing out our safer moves such as Jab, F-air, and invincible B-air. Inching in like that is only effective at long range.

Also almost everyone =/= literally everyone, until I see proof that it is consistently doable on (a non training dummy) Rosalina, it means jack in this match up. And even if it does work, it doesn't automatically tip the scales in Palutena's favour, since you're not gonna be let pull it off very easily.

Last I checked, it's a true combo on everyone. What differentiates between characters is the percents it works and kills at. Rosalina is a featherweight with a low fallspeed (meaning she dies off the top easier than most characters) and a large frame (meaning she's easier to hit) so on paper she'd be one of the characters that's MOST susceptible to this combo.

And I'm not trying to say that Palutena beats Rosalina. As I said before I have very little experience in this matchup so I really don't know either way. The only reason I posted anything is because I felt there were some things you weren't considering.

Point is, it means we negate your customs. At which point, you're basically a regular Palu against a custom Rosa.

Not really. We can still use Super Speed and Lightweight, we just have to be smart about it. SS can still be used to punish mistakes and recover and LW can be used to get in quicker, dodge things easier, and expand our combo game.

 

[Wintropy]

Point is, it means we negate your customs. At which point, you're basically a regular Palu against a custom Rosa. Also, if you're lacking in experience, I'd love to play you. I enjoy fighting good Palus.

I'll take you up on that offer too, if that's possible. I need some serious training against Rosaluma. :3

 

[ChikoLad]

you did not seem to provide adequate counter-analysis of the opposing character; rather, you merely debunked the opponent's suggestions as being "incorrect" and "arbitrary", to the extent that the discussion seemed to reach a stalemate.

And that was intentional. If you thoroughly read the discussion instead of glancing at it, you would note how I (twice) mentioned that I was only doing that because I do not personally have the time to get really in depth in this thread (in fact, from now on, I plan to just give my votes and that's it, more or less - even here, I'm keeping things short). So yes, I brought the discussion to a stalemate. Thanks for pointing out the thing I intentionally did as if it were supposed to be an error on my part.

Also I definitely have gone over Rosalina's weaknesses on multiple occassions in multiple match-ups (again, thoroughly read the Marth MU discussion for one example). However, do remember that this character is wildly regarded as top 3 - it stands to reason that she would have much less perceivable weaknesses than other characters - there really isn't a lot to go over, and it's been done a thousand times since there isn't much. And judging by the fact that Rosalina mains and players of the characters being discussed alike, have awarded me with their likes on many of my posts in these MU discussions, I would say that, objectively, I'm doing more right than wrong here.

All I came back to say, moral of the story is:

 

[Wintropy]

Okay, I'm sorry, but you're just being rude now.

Apologies for the commotion, people, but I am afraid I cannot carry on this discussion any longer. Good luck with future matchup topics. I will provide what information I can in future, if needs be. :3

 

[Puppyfaic]

I'll take you up on that offer too, if that's possible. I need some serious training against Rosaluma. :3

Sure, if you want.

 

[Puppyfaic]

I think the rule on this discussion board from now on should be that noone should address another person's post unless they are agreeing/adding on on to that person's post. Personal opinion to stop further clashes in opinions.

That defeats the purpose of debate.

 

[Random4811]

I think the rule on this discussion board from now on should be that noone should address another person's post unless they are agreeing/adding on on to that person's post. Personal opinion to stop further clashes in opinions.

How very tumblr of you.

Like the post above me says, it defeats the purpose of debate. And it also destroys any meaningful discussion. If everyone is always agreeing with eachother all the time, nothing will get done. Especially if someone posts something blatantly wrong, this policy would be very ineffective for growing an understanding of the character's MU's

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Incidentally, just to add that with customs on...

Yeah, it becomes a whole 'nother ball game.

Super Speed can blitz through Luma and Rosie alike, and allows for substantial followup combos (n-air, f-air, even u-air if done right), and it improves Palutena's approach options tenfold; Lightweight makes her a much more slippery target and ensures she can go deep off-stage for early kills, and u-air can chase into the upper blast zone for even earlier kills; Jump Glide makes Palutena almost impossible to gimp and she can use it to retreat from Luma pressure; Angelic Missile is a decent kill move in its own right and covers decent range when activated, and then there's all the other moves you can play with. I'm just listing examples that I think are particularly useful in this matchup.

Basically Palutena can be customised into a rushdown combo machine, allowing her to knock Luma aside and catch Rosie a blindside with her powerful airgame. The only noticeable drawback here is that she has to go full-on aggro to be effective in this set, as moves like Reflect and Counter have little use. You may want to pull back and play defensively here, as Luma Shots and Star Bits will intercept Super Speed, and look for openings to exploit Lightweight's damage increase. I think Palutena potentially has a huge advantage with customs on, either way - it really does shake up her entire character in incredible ways, and makes up for some otherwise tough matchups with its variety and distinction.

30 : 70 ​

Man stop it Rosalina gets a lot of good stuff from customs also. Anyways check out iggy vs AeroLink they played a couple of weeks ago with customs.

Here's the matches I'm talking about

SW17 Smash 4 - AeroLink (Palutena) vs iiGGY (Rosa…: http://youtu.be/lUM4Kp6LLJQ

SW17 Smash 4 - iiGGY (Rosalina) vs AeroLink (Palu…: http://youtu.be/f3oRJQskpp0

From my understanding aerolink is the best Palutena. The MU doesn't look 7-3 from this but if you can break it down and point out what went wrong then Im all ears.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

I think without customs this matchup is a 60:40 in Rosalina's favor because secret service Luma has more range and can stuff alot of palutena approaches. With customs I think this matchup is a 50:50, both Rosalina and Palutena turn into monsters with customs on. Luma warp and shooting star bit are amazing, and you can't sleep on Palutena's Lightweight, Super Speed and Explosive Flame. When Palutena has customs, her approaches become alot harder to deal with because of all the raw speed she gets.

 

[xnine]

In a default match, its probably 60-40 or 55-45 in Rosalina's favor. The Luma zoning is tough as nails to get past. It's not impossible, but the pacing of the game is usually in Rosalina's favor (as it should be for most matchups!). With customs, I feel like the matchup is at least 50-50. Palutena gets a lot more offensive options, and the not useless Explosive Flame, which is much MUCH better than Autoreticle in this case.

It's not like Palutena will always be using Superspeed to dash faster across the ground. Of course you would use the Shooting Star Bit to counter that kind of approach. However, Luma is not always in that kind of position. and using Superspeed straight up on the ground is but one way to use it. It's a great recovery option, a gap closer that can be used in the air, and it can be jump canceled into things like upsmash. High speed anti-air laser? Please. Then there's Lightweight, which is a different kind of monstrosity. Yes Palutena takes more damage, but we get Sonic levels of mobility along with:

Invincible dash attack/bair
Very quick fairs
Grab->nair/uair true combos (which is a kill option)

If Rosalina does not respect these options, then she will have a very bad day and the momentum will quickly swing in Palutena's favor.

Now all that said and done, Rosalina's options, notably Luma Warp and Shooting Starbit are still rather insane. You guys do NOT give an inch without making us Palutenas work for it. Just make sure that if you Luma Warp, you have the presence of mind to be ready to call her back quickly. If you do not have Luma in front of Rosalina, then it is much easier for Palutena to go to town and rack percent. I say 60-40 in Palutena's favor mostly because I understand much of her options. I would not be surprised it if was 50-50, but nothing more than 60-40 to either side with customs on.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Palutena's discussion period is now over. Now, due to the way that Palutena operates with her special move options, getting an overall average for the Rosalina vs. Palutena match-up was on the tricky side, so I did the best that I could.

[61:39 - 62:38 (or 51:49)]

Overall, this match-up's outcome is dependent on whether or not the custom specials are involved.

Next up, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against Ike.

 

[Puppyfaic]

Destroys him, plain and simple.
Superior range.
Superior speed.
Equal power.
Gimps him very easily.

70:30.

 

[mario123007]

Destroys him, plain and simple.
Superior range.
Superior speed.
Equal power.
Gimps him very easily.

70:30.

I don't know if it's because Ike got muscular, or his sword got smaller, his range isn't that big as he was in Brawl, but like he was in Brawl, many of his attacks can launch Rosalina easily, ONLY if he can manage to hit her.
I give 70:30 too.

 

[Trunks159]

Well. Im an Ike main. I definitely dont see the matchup being 70:30. One thing: when you picture the matchup, dont always picture it in FD.

The thing is, its hard for Ike to get in. Well thats what its like for a ton of characters vs Rosalina. The thing is, once Ike hits with a Nair, hits with a dtilt, grabs, or takes out Luma, Ike can do some serious damage. Nair combos to bair, grab, jab, fair, up air sometimes. Dtilt goes into fair, and puts the opponent in a horrible position.

Rosalina wins the neutral (not by a lot, Ike just needs to put more effort) offstage Ike can edgeguard with eruption and against Rosalina, its not too hard to time. Keep that in mind.

Rosalina can juggle Ike well on Fd and the like.
I don't like to use ratios, since everyone has a different definition about what the difference between 60:40 and 70:30. Ill just tell you, Rosalina isn't a hard counter to Ike...at least imo.

 

[Parcheesy]

Going to go with 55-45 in favor of Rosalina.

Ike has all the advantages of being a swordfighter against Rosalina, so it can never be that bad for him. I wouldn't say gimping him is particularly easy either, as Aether straight out denies the attempt if you're too far away. His neutral involving nairs and fairs are generally good against Rosalina and Luma when spaced properly, and they lead to decent followups to get Rosalina offstage.

Rosalina has the slight edge in neutral, and has the option to use Smash attacks a bit more freely when searching for the kill, as they are significantly safer options than Ike's. She has all the quick Luma options available to her, which gives her decent pressure options if she wants to press the offense against Ike.