You guys might want to get back on topic and less of attacking each other. 
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ROB+: Organic Meatbags Beware!
- Thread starter JCaesar
- Start date
stingers
Smash Obsessed
no, i'm thinking along the lines of, "hey as long as my opponent isn't stupid there's no way I can land any of my kill moves because they're all too slow or predictable"
like, what you said is the only way ROB can get kills, he doesn't have anything that leads into kills. if you get what I'm saying. that's not the way things should be.
like, what you said is the only way ROB can get kills, he doesn't have anything that leads into kills. if you get what I'm saying. that's not the way things should be.
zaf
Smash Lord
This was not posted towards you holy. I am not saying you only kill with dthrow>nair. I was just stating that characters should not rely on kill moves in general, but how they are worked into their play style. The thing is that rob does not need a grab to kill set up. He is great enough on his own. I can DI, sometimes i Di the wrong way but i learn that, and then next time DI properly. Even this past weekend when we played you hit me with some move at like 150% and i survived. You were like " nice di". I always di out of peoples grabs, half of it being since i am a light character, but i cant get out of yours.
besides zaf, all holy has to do against you is fthrow off stage to fair, since you always rejump into the aerial lol. and your last post is bleh (well the post about using only kill moves). Holy is good, you're blaming the player more than the character at this point. You'd never make the back room with these arguments.
You're not giving him enough credit. The only thing that's wrong is the percentage where the throw links into nair. And no, you don't need to read your opponent to deserve a kill, if you want to land something and you do, that's all you need. Evidently, if Holy can grab you that easily, then it's because you're too predictable, or your approach is bs. Especially with TL. I really don't understand how come he's grabbing you. Marth spamming his fsmash will most likely not connect often with it if he doesn't have the smash sense of using another move where it would kill more appropriately (like utilt or a dj dair off stage to intercept the enemy. Adaptation is key, and Holy is good at adapting.
I think there's nothing else to add. Fix the ROB throw accordingly. He should still keep his dthrow to nair kill set up, but only at higher percentages where the throw would stun the guy for long enough. Otherwise, the character should be allowed to escape the nair at low-mid percentages.
You're not giving him enough credit. The only thing that's wrong is the percentage where the throw links into nair. And no, you don't need to read your opponent to deserve a kill, if you want to land something and you do, that's all you need. Evidently, if Holy can grab you that easily, then it's because you're too predictable, or your approach is bs. Especially with TL. I really don't understand how come he's grabbing you. Marth spamming his fsmash will most likely not connect often with it if he doesn't have the smash sense of using another move where it would kill more appropriately (like utilt or a dj dair off stage to intercept the enemy. Adaptation is key, and Holy is good at adapting.
I think there's nothing else to add. Fix the ROB throw accordingly. He should still keep his dthrow to nair kill set up, but only at higher percentages where the throw would stun the guy for long enough. Otherwise, the character should be allowed to escape the nair at low-mid percentages.
zaf
Smash Lord
noooo fthrow to fair stopped working yesterday, i stopped rejumping and just fell and got back XD
although i sometimes ate a bair on the way back >_>
although i sometimes ate a bair on the way back >_>
ThatGuy
Smash Master
Addressing the issues presented by chesterr01, please read the following: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9689553
E For Eugene
Smash Apprentice
I didn't john when i played Holy ;D
Jer
Smash Ace
But you're just legit bad, that's why.
E For Eugene
Smash Apprentice
zaf
Smash Lord
no you are legit bad, cuz you are just bad. Nothing to do about complaining dude
E For Eugene
Smash Apprentice
stingers
Smash Obsessed
its okay eugene i respect you
Jer
Smash Ace
I haven't played Holy 1v1 since like, forever, so i don't complain about losing to him, just ROB in general.
You're just bad brah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7etd1yjhL2U
You're just bad brah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7etd1yjhL2U
zaf
Smash Lord
*Missy Elliot voice* I dont want no 7 second man
E For Eugene
Smash Apprentice
Eugene/zaf/Jer/etc: Take it to the Social thread.
zaf
Smash Lord
sry for the offtopicness
Jer
Smash Ace
Yeah im done being offtopic 
Just so easy for me to be distracted.
Yes Eugene, i'd LOVE to MM you next time we meet up
Just so easy for me to be distracted.Yes Eugene, i'd LOVE to MM you next time we meet up
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Dthrow->nair is not optimal at low or mid %. Nair only does 10% and hits them away unless they're a fastfaller and DI wrong. Fair also does 10% and has better followups (including gimp potential near the edge) and uair just does a crapton of damage depending on their SDI skills (up to 21% I believe). Hell, you can dthrow->usmash fastfallers at low %.
Which is why I don't understand:
Does it matter if he can dthrow->nair at low %? Is it just the principle of it? Because he has better options, so I don't see why it's an issue.
Anyway, hopefully Veril can come in here and lay some data down on us, because I don't think dthrow->nair at high % works quite as well as you guys make it out to be. On fastfallers, yeah, but on a majority of the cast at 160%? I don't think so. I play a Zelda (floaty I know) all the time and it doesn't even work at kill % on her.
Have you guys tried jumping out instead of mashing airdodge? Because jumping is significantly faster than airdodging during tumble and will get you out of a lot more combos.
zaf
Smash Lord
I think it is not being able to act at all after the throw happens. I'm sure chet tried all options to get out, even jump. I don't see why he would leave out that option.
Also at low %'s i think he meant all of the aerials and not just nair?
Nair doesn't follow up well i find, there are better follow options at the lower %'s. Such as fair.
At low %'s rob is more likely to use a an aerial that will allow for a good follow up. But being at low % against rob is essential. I believe this because the higher % you have, the more likely you are to eat a nair after the next dthrow. It's kinda like rob's go to grab. Other grabs should be utilized more often comparable to the stage, stage placing and %. I'm not saying that's all rob players do, im saying they should not be given the option. At higher %, after being hit with a nair, you are not placed in a good situation. Even at lower % close to the edge, dthrow>nair just sets up well for an edgeguard.
Also at low %'s i think he meant all of the aerials and not just nair?
Nair doesn't follow up well i find, there are better follow options at the lower %'s. Such as fair.
At low %'s rob is more likely to use a an aerial that will allow for a good follow up. But being at low % against rob is essential. I believe this because the higher % you have, the more likely you are to eat a nair after the next dthrow. It's kinda like rob's go to grab. Other grabs should be utilized more often comparable to the stage, stage placing and %. I'm not saying that's all rob players do, im saying they should not be given the option. At higher %, after being hit with a nair, you are not placed in a good situation. Even at lower % close to the edge, dthrow>nair just sets up well for an edgeguard.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
I don't see anything broken about ROB in Brawl+. He's no where near as good in the current version as he used to be. He's a very very solid character though by all means.
zaf
Smash Lord
By "as he used to be" do you mean, when he was broken in GSH1? A lot of problems with characters were fixed, because we were moving towards a purely statistic build (everything was based off the changelists rather then playing the game). That was addressed already and taken care of.
Of course you will not see any problems with r.o.b because you thought he was fine before when he clearly was worse then he is now. I will try my best to stay on topic about rob and bring only reasonable discussion but im sorry i can not take anything you say seriously chibo.
Of course you will not see any problems with r.o.b because you thought he was fine before when he clearly was worse then he is now. I will try my best to stay on topic about rob and bring only reasonable discussion but im sorry i can not take anything you say seriously chibo.
Spin
Smash Journeyman
whats Brawl +?
160% is a random number. I could have put 1 million instead. I just mean "at a percentage where the combo would usually stop working".
I usually mash up on joystick + Y to jump + X to dodge when I'm trying hard to escape a throw like that.
I love this guy already.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
I don't even know, I hardly play Brawl+ lol. I just practice for the 2 days b4 I go to a Brawl+ tourney and adjust to w/e happened and then **** at the game.
Hehe that was a fun read. Wow chet is so smart and well articulated. Anyways From the small things i know of the game some thing looks not so well balanced, so certain Rob attack could fit in the broken category, i can easily imagine. But you will never convince me no other character has broken stuff
Now i like all you guys but as holy's biggest fan i have to give him a bit of support.
You guys are trying to balance the game, each from your diferent point of view, but know that holy is a special player. He and his brother are on a whole other level then us. His brother has beaten m2k twice in the last 10 days. Normal player like me and most of you will never get close to anything like that.
And i have said it a few times, i believe he could have been better then Ally in vBrawl if he had picked MK from day 1. And that both brother are very very close in skill.
Holy know Rob like the back of his land. So if they made him slightly good in Brawl + he will win, its that simple. And its sad but even if you guys manage to make Rob a crapy character, Holy will probably still win with him, or just change character and still win. Because yes Holy likes money haha.
Anyways since i like loosing,I feel lucky to have a bunch of great player here in montreal at melee/brawl to practice with. So i rather make homosexual post like that then john
Now i like all you guys but as holy's biggest fan i have to give him a bit of support.
You guys are trying to balance the game, each from your diferent point of view, but know that holy is a special player. He and his brother are on a whole other level then us. His brother has beaten m2k twice in the last 10 days. Normal player like me and most of you will never get close to anything like that.
And i have said it a few times, i believe he could have been better then Ally in vBrawl if he had picked MK from day 1. And that both brother are very very close in skill.
Holy know Rob like the back of his land. So if they made him slightly good in Brawl + he will win, its that simple. And its sad but even if you guys manage to make Rob a crapy character, Holy will probably still win with him, or just change character and still win. Because yes Holy likes money haha.
Anyways since i like loosing,I feel lucky to have a bunch of great player here in montreal at melee/brawl to practice with. So i rather make homosexual post like that then john
JCaesar
Smash Hero
^ Haha well said
I was just covering all the bases. Depending on how close you guys follow Brawl+, you might not have known that airdodge during tumble was nerfed by 5 frames, since there isn't a changelist yet. I didn't mean to imply anything.
HolyNightmare
Smash Champion
Tin Man
Smash Hero
Does anyone know the Brawl+ results from LBT2?
ThatGuy
Smash Master
Lol yes, you even made shoutouts based on it.
Jer
Smash Ace
LMAO.
Stupid Tinman
Stupid Tinman
Veril
Frame Savant
Rob's d-throw is amazing but not like, omg broke-sauce. Cry about it if it upsets anyone that much. I can't throw an enormous mountain of data at you on it, but the stuff I posted for GSH2 throws is still accurate for Rob, so you can take a look at the **** that is his d-throw.
Lol at anyone who thinks I'd nerf Rob cause of Holy, or Lucario cause of Lee Martin (though Lucario does have a CG that needs to be fixed), or Wario cause of Ally. That isn't how things are done and its one of the single worst misconceptions people have about the project.
Lol at anyone who thinks I'd nerf Rob cause of Holy, or Lucario cause of Lee Martin (though Lucario does have a CG that needs to be fixed), or Wario cause of Ally. That isn't how things are done and its one of the single worst misconceptions people have about the project.
zaf
Smash Lord
I'm sorry but holy is the only player around here that even plays rob. The thing about the better players playing the characters is that they are most likely to exploit the characters aspects better than anyone else. Of course we would "complain" about rob because of holy. There is no one better then he is. If we take myself for example and put rob in my hands, ill most likely just fail. So the players do matter when it comes down to it. I honestly do not care that holy beats us, it is just how he does it like i explained. Sorry if my trolling came off to strong and made myself seem less educated then i actually am. But i think we need to record holy playing and just allow the people to see for themselves. I know d-throw is ****, but it isnt fair to have a character always be able to attack out of a grab, even at higher % when it means a kill. If we are di-ing the grab that horribly, then please educate us on how we should be doing this
Veril
Frame Savant
Why? Several characters have killing throw combos and everyone except Jiggs/Zelda has some legit throw combos. There are lots of throw combos throughout the cast. Rob's aren't the best either. Lucario, Pikachu, and the ICs all are a step above Rob in this respect.
I'll look into rob's d-throw combos again after I've finished the new stage boundaries and I'm done getting ***** by my lab practical D:
<3
Who do you main in B+? TL? I can check his options out of Rob's d-throw (frame perfect) when I get the chance if that would help.
You also have to keep in mind how often people tell me character x is broken/sucks. Its pretty unbelievable. At least half the cast has been labeled as broken by someone. The only clear outlier characters are Lucario (mostly due to his up-throw and the ******** stage boundaries) and olympic tier (Sonic/Mario, who are notably below the rest of the cast both on paper and in practice).
I think Yoshi and ROB are just ****ing stupid. Yoshi is okay overall, but hes so ******** dumb. Elef beats me and thats because I play like an *** most of the time, no johns, but even if he didnt play better than me yoshi is just ********.
Everyone except a few need to kill at lower %s, it makes the game way too slow-paced in my opinion. Like, characters move fast and combo comboes and ****, but ****, killing just 20-30% earlier would make it such a better game.
ROB vs Falcon is just bleh, ROB jabs me, and no matter if its on hit or block all I can do is like UpB and thats like a huge risk against any character. Gyro/Laser make it stupid to approach because those are, to me, the better projectiles against falcon except for like Falco lasers. Bair ***** Falcon recovery. Falcon can't punish much things ROB throw out and ftilt angled up beats most aerials except like dair but thats just asking to get upsmashed.
Everyone except a few need to kill at lower %s, it makes the game way too slow-paced in my opinion. Like, characters move fast and combo comboes and ****, but ****, killing just 20-30% earlier would make it such a better game.
ROB vs Falcon is just bleh, ROB jabs me, and no matter if its on hit or block all I can do is like UpB and thats like a huge risk against any character. Gyro/Laser make it stupid to approach because those are, to me, the better projectiles against falcon except for like Falco lasers. Bair ***** Falcon recovery. Falcon can't punish much things ROB throw out and ftilt angled up beats most aerials except like dair but thats just asking to get upsmashed.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Seriously, sheik's dthrow fair doesn't kill if properly DIed until "1 million percent".
Then again I can't DI out of R.O.B.'s down throw so I guess I can't DI after all.
Anyway, I think everything that has to be said about dthrow has been said. If nothing will be done about it, then so be it. This is a discussion thread, and the discussion has been served. I don't want another serving.
Then again I can't DI out of R.O.B.'s down throw so I guess I can't DI after all.
Anyway, I think everything that has to be said about dthrow has been said. If nothing will be done about it, then so be it. This is a discussion thread, and the discussion has been served. I don't want another serving.
zaf
Smash Lord
Yes veril i use TL. I am suppose to be a light character but di-ing out of the grab is very hard. Like i said, maybe we are just di-ing wrong, if so let us know how to di it.
Shiek i dont have a problem with, most of the time i can di cuz i am a light character, even if i get hit i will di the fair and live. This does not happen with rob.
Shiek i dont have a problem with, most of the time i can di cuz i am a light character, even if i get hit i will di the fair and live. This does not happen with rob.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Chester made it sound like the problem was not that ROB has a throw-kill combo, but that it works so well at such a wide % range on so many characters. I realize that Sheik's aerials generally don't kill as well as ROB's nair, but they do work more consistently than ROB's, on characters and at %s where ROB's doesn't work. Anyway, it was a minor point.
Tell me this: What's the difference between ROB's dthrow->nair killing at 120% and Ness's bthrow by itself killing at 120%? What makes it so people complain about ROB's throw-kill combo but no one complains about Ness's kill throw, or any of the numerous other kill throws out there, even though ROB's is inferior due to requiring more work and thought on the part of the ROB player (and much more easily thwarted in teams)?
Is it that ROB gets grabs easier? Doubtful. Ness can combo directly into grab with a DJC fair which is very easy to land. ROB's only true combos into grab that I can think of are out of a dtilt trip (unreliable) or after a weak hit fair or bair (only at low %) and techchases of course (which ROB doesn't exactly have any good setups for). The only decent ones are jab->grab (can be dodged after the jab) and gyro glidetoss->grab (avoidable if you do anything other than sit there in your shield). Other than that, the ROB player has a bait a mistake to grab you.
I think it's all psychological. People don't like inescapable combos, even if they're perfectly balanced within the game. People don't like the fact that you can't escape Sheik's fsmash anymore, but if it was a single-hit fsmash with exactly the same stats, no one would have a problem with it.
Tell me this: What's the difference between ROB's dthrow->nair killing at 120% and Ness's bthrow by itself killing at 120%? What makes it so people complain about ROB's throw-kill combo but no one complains about Ness's kill throw, or any of the numerous other kill throws out there, even though ROB's is inferior due to requiring more work and thought on the part of the ROB player (and much more easily thwarted in teams)?
Is it that ROB gets grabs easier? Doubtful. Ness can combo directly into grab with a DJC fair which is very easy to land. ROB's only true combos into grab that I can think of are out of a dtilt trip (unreliable) or after a weak hit fair or bair (only at low %) and techchases of course (which ROB doesn't exactly have any good setups for). The only decent ones are jab->grab (can be dodged after the jab) and gyro glidetoss->grab (avoidable if you do anything other than sit there in your shield). Other than that, the ROB player has a bait a mistake to grab you.
I think it's all psychological. People don't like inescapable combos, even if they're perfectly balanced within the game. People don't like the fact that you can't escape Sheik's fsmash anymore, but if it was a single-hit fsmash with exactly the same stats, no one would have a problem with it.