ROB+: Organic Meatbags Beware!

[chesterr01]

people of this thread please pay attention to my last two posts, I would like to get past the drama and go into constructive discussion. please quote me and reply.

jer you don't have to upload any vids, also you no one needs to come here and ***** about other peoples ideas or skill level.

 

[stingers]

what does robs nair link to at low% chester? like, is there enough of a reason to nerf it at low% so they dont link? do you have a problem with it being a guaranteed kill at high%?

 

[Jer]

Chester, you know me, that's what i do, but as always, i'm not serious about that. I did the same thing with Silverdoc, but respected him in person.


Pay attention to what Chet has said please, he stated perfectly what i couldn't put into words.

 

[HolyNightmare]

Anywho like I was saying to Chester, character that are really floaty like Kirby, Jigglypuff, TL ect have an easier time dealing with ROB cause they can escape most of his combos but this is the same for everybody. Floaty characters are really good in this game since they can escape quick dmg and can combo back without too much of a problem. ROB is extremely easy to combo if you get an hit in and he's huge, I'm just good at avoiding getting hit which is why sometime I manage to 2-3 stock my opponents since they can't get the finishing hit in. I'm pretty sure melee works the same way, this isn't vBrawl. Combos make it so you can have a large stock ADV.

 

[zaf]

No, we know that holy is better, it is just how he is beating us right now. He is beatable, since we have beat him before but the main problem is definitely the grabs. They lead into too many options and follow ups for r.o.b without any way to DI. The spot dodge issue is maybe character dependent. I tried to bait them\ foresee them, but always ended up getting beat by a move as soon as the spot dodge is done.

Like chet said, grabs aren't hard to get in brawl+, and holy is profound for getting grabs in. I do not see why grabs should lead into a kill at high%. That is the main problem, getting grabbed at around 100% + and then just eating a nair. Then you have to try and recover against rob

 

[JCaesar]

His poke is crazy, it leads into grab, which leads into what was stated before.

If you mean jab->grab, that's not a true combo, you can spotdodge after the jab and some characters can even jump out or interrupt with their own jab.


Thanks chesterr for turning this into an actual discussion. I'll be sure to discuss this in the backroom. Maybe we can optimize his dthrow a bit differently to have a smaller guaranteed window for nair, and maybe add some base KB to f/bthrow to prevent inescapable low % gimps if those are the problems.

 

[stingers]

zaf are you approaching through the air? approaching through the air gives you limited options to countering spotdodges. just approach through the ground and you can just grab them/charge a smash instead. or use a multi-hit move to hit out of spotdodges (esp. since invuln frames have been cut down according to jcaes, that should be even easier)

spotdodges have counters just mostly not through the air. in brawl+ approaching through the air is more common since most characters have more aerial momentum so they can move further as well as ALR meaning it's "safer" to not connect with an aerial so you're more likely to try and use them. holy is just smart and uses more spotdodges to counter that

 

[stingers]

if you just make robs dthrow like falcons melee dthrow it'd be fine, right? make it so they can DI far enough away it won't CG (since robs dash isn't that great that shouldn't be a problem), but at higher %s it sends them high enough that if you're accurate enough you should get a nair off @.@

 

[Jer]

What about characters that can't approach from the ground, such as Jiggs, it's hard enough getting in sometimes, and i just get spotdodged>grabbed out of the air.

 

[zaf]

zaf are you approaching through the air? approaching through the air gives you limited options to countering spotdodges. just approach through the ground and you can just grab them/charge a smash instead. or use a multi-hit move to hit out of spotdodges (esp. since invuln frames have been cut down according to jcaes, that should be even easier)

spotdodges have counters just mostly not through the air. in brawl+ approaching through the air is more common since most characters have more aerial momentum so they can move further as well as ALR meaning it's "safer" to not connect with an aerial so you're more likely to try and use them. holy is just smart and uses more spotdodges to counter that

a few times i grabbed him with tl during the spot dodge just for him to do another one to avoid the grab in general. If i remember correctly i think that tl's grab is suppose to grab people out of roll/spot dodge.

 

[stingers]

play gay...wait for openings. jiggs in melee don't just play really aggro and into spotdodge range, you wall with bairs and wait for them to open up/push them far enough towards the ledge that they can't reliably retreat and then use that to your advantage

edit: idk if they added something weird in b+ but I don't think there is anything that can hit through invuln frames. toon links grab shouldn't be able to grab through robs spotdodge (or anyones). you're probably just so used to vBrawl's spotdodge timing, the reduced invuln frames of brawl+'s spotdodge made it seem like you were grabbing them too early, if you get what I'm saying.

 

[chesterr01]

what does robs nair link to at low% chester? like, is there enough of a reason to nerf it at low% so they dont link? do you have a problem with it being a guaranteed kill at high%?

Nair? I don't care about nair, there's nothing wrong with it. Just the throw. The throw that links into nair at any percentage. If it was ONLY has high percentages, it would be reasonable.

If you want nair to be a regular used attack AND kill move (like falcon's knee), then make it linkable at precise percentages only. You should be able to escape most follow ups at low percentages (at least the nair).
Throw into fair or uair is be ok at low percentages, but not into nair. Nair has so much start up, so at least remove stun off the throw at low percentages, or rework the scaling of it. I assume the game's stun is directly influenced by the percentage you're at. If throw into nair worked at 40-50% (about 1 ROB low percentage combo, excluding the current throw-nair set up) to around 1/0-120%. I'd be ok with that. At 160%? No way, if you're still alive at 160%, you should not be dying off a throw combo.

 

[zaf]

play gay...wait for openings. jiggs in melee don't just play really aggro and into spotdodge range, you wall with bairs and wait for them to open up/push them far enough towards the ledge that they can't reliably retreat and then use that to your advantage

edit: idk if they added something weird in b+ but I don't think there is anything that can hit through invuln frames. toon links grab shouldn't be able to grab through robs spotdodge (or anyones). you're probably just so used to vBrawl's spotdodge timing, the reduced invuln frames of brawl+'s spotdodge made it seem like you were grabbing them too early, if you get what I'm saying.

I fully understand that, but i do not think vbrawl's timing has anything to do with it, since i have not touched vbrawl in well over a year. The thing is, tl's grabs are supposed to grab you out of spot dodge/roll, but it isnt working. Is it the timing or is it just not meant to work at all

 

[stingers]

the throw that links into nair at any percentage. If it was ONLY has high percentages, it would be reasonable.

thats what I'm saying. does dthrow nair at low % really matter enough it needs to be nerfed? ie. what does nair link into at low %?

edit:

The thing is, tl's grabs are supposed to grab you out of spot dodge/roll, but it isnt working. Is it the timing or is it just not meant to work at all

I really doubt that, if jcaes or plum would come in here and clarify that'd be nice. moves aren't supposed to go through invuln frames, if tl's grab does that's pretty **** gay.

and just cuz you haven't touched vBrawl in awhile doesn't mean various timings aren't already ingrained in your head...it's just how your brain works. brawl+ looks just like vBrawl so you're expecting vBrawl timings for a good while until you really acclimate yourself to +.

 

[Jer]

I play an aggro Jiggs and i can usually get in fine, camping against a ROB on the otherhand, is really no that easy.


Gyros, Lasers, this mofo gots errthang

 

[stingers]

aggro jiggs doesn't beat ROB then...do you want aggro jiggs to beat every character? it's called a counter, play gayer or keep losing...ROB is amazing at stuffing approaches, but once you get in, ROB doesn't have much to get you out and gets comboed to hell and back. you've gotta work for it

 

[zaf]

A lot of characters have throws into moves at low %'s. That has never been a problem with me, unless it is leading into an edgeguard where rob can gimp a good amount of the cast. I just don't really understand the reasoning behind r.o.b throwing to nair at high %'s for the kill. Ganon had this problem at high % too, but it was changed

 

[stingers]

rob doesn't have a single other kill setup then dthrow to nair. take that away and he doesn't have much. consider why you're *****ing about it in the first place, it's the only way you really die because it's the only way rob has to kill. besides edgeguards

 

[5ive]

BRB CANADA WINS HOCKEY GOLD lololo

 

[zaf]

Ok, well if you are telling me that rob doesn't have many kill options then Re-working the throw to nair at low % would need to happen.

 

[stingers]

i don't see why not. making it like melee falcon's dthrow seems optimal. (exactly like it, in my head...ie. you can only go the direction that you're grabbed from, and if you don't DI it away, you get CGed, and at high %s, its a guaranteed kill as long as you dont **** it up, though it's moderately difficult without some practice)

 

[HolyNightmare]

Dthrow to Nair isn't even a 100% true combo at any %, It's only good vs fast fallers and you can still di away so it can't hit. I've only seen a few person di it right, KKong, Ally, Swordgard....oh wait those are the people I barely played with and they already found ways around nair. Why? Simple they're skilled players that place very good in Brawl and are already miles away in smartness, mindgames and more. This is why most people that are good but never play Brawl+ still end up doing great such as Ally, LeeMartin and many others. Point is you guys need to get better, I haven't gone to USA yet I'm pretty sure I'll have an harder time over there since they actually step their games up instead of crying about nerfs.

 

[stingers]

well how are u supposed to DI it? why dont u help them out

 

[chesterr01]

The fact that it works at low percentages is not the issue. If dthrow nair works at 0%, it shouldn't work at 160%. This is mostly the issue at stake here.

I'd be pissed if dthrow to knee worked from 0 to 160%. It would be illogical, no? I wouldn't mind if ROB's dthrow to nair worked from 0 to 60%, and not above that.

ROB at the moment has one of his main killing strats revolving around a particular grab, you need that grab to be tuned at various percentages. I'd compare it to Sheik's melee dthrow in NTSC. That thing was "fixed" in PAL for the same reasons I'm coming to you right now. ROB has a good grab, that consistently leads into good damage. Characters that are very powerful or advantaged naturally should have grab games that are balanced with the character's advantages.

ROB is really a tank. Hard to approach, good recovery, pretty safe too. Nice bread and butter combos.
Against him, I'd say he's a pretty big fellow, some would argue that he's easy to combo (although he's light enough to get out of Yoshi's uthrow and I'm guessing, ROB's dthrow =P). Relatively slow mobility.

So what's ROB to do if the opponent gets too close? Most of his pokes are safe. Anyway, most ROBs are more defensive than offensive, so I don't think this matters. He has very safe pokes, combined with good grabs, excellent long range game, a persistent projectile. And again, grabs are easy to land in this game... A lot of characters are at a disadvantage in the match up, without even mentioning ROB's grabs. Why give him one that works all the time on the majority of the cast?

 

[stingers]

i don't know if it's illogical or not. i don't see any reason why it would matter if you could do it at 0% if it doesn't really lead into anything else. it seems like a nonissue if thats the case, realistically anyway. I can understand you don't like things comboing at any % just for the sake of the precedent it sets but who cares if it doesn't really change anything?

but if it's a powerful (or the OPTIMAL) option at low%, mid% and high%, it should be changed just because ROB doesn't need something like that...is the way I see it

 

[zaf]

Dthrow to Nair isn't even a 100% true combo at any %, It's only good vs fast fallers and you can still di away so it can't hit. I've only seen a few person di it right, KKong, Ally, Swordgard....oh wait those are the people I barely played with and they already found ways around nair. Why? Simple they're skilled players that place very good in Brawl and are already miles away in smartness, mindgames and more. This is why most people that are good but never play Brawl+ still end up doing great such as Ally, LeeMartin and many others. Point is you guys need to get better, I haven't gone to USA yet I'm pretty sure I'll have an harder time over there since they actually step their games up instead of crying about nerfs.

This has nothing to do with any one from montreal being a bad player, and needing to step up their game. Don't degrade us like that holy. If i DI so badly, then why do i always DI your mk's dthrow, when practically no one knows how to di this lol. I've tried to DI robs throw, and even with TL i cant get out of the way from the nair.

The thing about robs grab at any %, is that he does not need something like that.

 

[VietGeek]

I fully understand that, but i do not think vbrawl's timing has anything to do with it, since i have not touched vbrawl in well over a year. The thing is, tl's grabs are supposed to grab you out of spot dodge/roll, but it isnt working. Is it the timing or is it just not meant to work at all

No I think what is happening is something gay about this game in general.

The beloved Z-plane...in a 2D party game/platformer/pseudo-fighter.

When characters spotdodge, to make the game "more realistic" they may sometimes go into the Z-plane outside 0 (as the spotdodge is literally a sidestep for many characters).

Even during vulnerable frames in the spotdodge, they still are in that plane until the animation is over. Therefore some attacks that only target the 0 Z-plane won't catch them. However, tether grabs such as TL's might be within Z-plane 1 (or -1) and be able to catch characters with spotdodge animations on such Z-planes.

Easy way to see this is to go to Melee. Choose Falco and Ganondorf. While Falco shoots a laser, get Ganon to Side-B. The Side-B should go pass the laser. Magus and get an explanation from him.

 

[stingers]

charizards nair hits in the z plane in vBrawl. have a charizard nair a ddd during his spotdodge. you'll hit him "early".

 

[Jer]

Good to know you pretty much tell us were bad, appreciate it.


I can get out of Robs throw>nair anytime, considering im light.


Remember getting Wop'd in dubs brah? Good times.



In all seriousness, don't degrade us as players, just because you're "Pro". Some of us aspire to being a top level player someday, and this doesn't help out. I remember i used to watch videos of Kage/PKM/Chet playing before i met them, and i was amazed. I met them, and they played me when i was garbage and didn't say anything to me about it, they helped me get better.


Stop being elitist

 

[zaf]

It is also funny how holy says that, but then at tournies he is like " jer you are the hardest person to face for me cuz u use jigz" lol
i swear holy plays just for money and does not appreciate the game at a level we do.

 

[chesterr01]

Dthrow to Nair isn't even a 100% true combo at any %, It's only good vs fast fallers and you can still di away so it can't hit. I've only seen a few person di it right, KKong, Ally, Swordgard....oh wait those are the people I barely played with and they already found ways around nair. Why? Simple they're skilled players that place very good in Brawl and are already miles away in smartness, mindgames and more. This is why most people that are good but never play Brawl+ still end up doing great such as Ally, LeeMartin and many others. Point is you guys need to get better, I haven't gone to USA yet I'm pretty sure I'll have an harder time over there since they actually step their games up instead of crying about nerfs.

Holy, I'm sorry, but I have one of the best and most consistent DIs in Melee.

I agree that I wasn't playing at my best during our sets, but dthrow has a long animation, so I have a million years to react and DI it. That being said, I could never ever get out of that throw set up, regardless of the characters I used. Actually, I think the thing that frustrates me the most is the fact that I cannot DI out of it.At any percentage.

The only reason I place high is because I'm smarter than the average bear. I never played high tiers in vbrawl, still placed high. It's bad that I don't play enough, but still, I know what I know. Even if brawl and melee are different, I know enough about fighting game mechanics to see when something is weird.

I would agree that most Montreal players aren't that good. The community isn't vibrant enough, and we do not have a lot of character variety either.

vbrawl is all Ally Holy SG and KK.
n B+, a few are decent, but most don't compare or wouldn't place high in a tournament. I choked hard at LBT2 unfortunately (actually I failed at all events I got in, car crap, slept on the floor, no sleep, no johns).
Still, a throw like that, you can't blame that on player skills.
Make it like the dthrow knee. I think Stinger liked the idea.

Also, aggro jiggs doesn't work on ROB, it's suicide. Anything aggro on ROB is suicide. You can't approach ROB the same way you approach Ivysaur. ROB, MK, Yoshi, and probably other characters cannot be played against the same, they are particular match ups. Just like how Melee falco cannot be approached the same as other characters in the game because he can zone you with lasers and has a sick up close match up.

 

[HolyNightmare]

I'm sick of all you degrading me except for Chester, so you can all go eat a ****
Chester is the only person that played all 3 games and has alway been a good person and a good player, he basically never john and if he post something it's actually readable and not biased. I'm done with this topic, ciao.

*Edit
Wait a minute the only people whining are Jer, Zaf, Elef and Chester to some degree, such a big community.

 

[Jer]

When do i john? I NEVER disrespect you as a player, i just diss the character, please get your **** straight.


I totally agree with what you said Reggie, you can't Aggro into ROB, it doesnt work. You have to play Aggroesque, yet defensive.

I can get in vs ROB, it's just there's some crazy stuff that happens. Some things need to be changed, and i now realized i need to change as a player to become acustomed to more matchups.

 

[zaf]

lol holy i dont degrade you. At most i said you were mindless for always grabbing into auto-combo. If chet can;t di the move there is something wrong with it since he has strong DI, that originated from melee.

 

[HolyNightmare]

lol holy i dont degrade you. At most i said you were mindless for always grabbing into auto-combo. If chet can;t di the move there is something wrong with it since he has strong DI, that originated from melee.

He won't di(even with perfect di) away from it with Fox nor Captain Falcon they fall too fast, he was avoiding it with Pit a few times. It doesnt work past 120-130 against character who has medium falling speed, so I can't kill after. ROB doesn't have any killing move except for Bair(easy to avoid), fsmash(predictable) and Nair(Slow start up)

*Edit
Chester even found a way to escape it with Captain Falcon by teching my dthrow into platforms so my nair couldn't hit him since he's invincible, I noticed that on Smashville, maybe you guys should practice that.
Also wtf at me not enjoying the game, you guys are the people that make me not enjoy the game by whining all the time. "oh noes rob grabbed me he winz, cant do anything"

 

[zaf]

Obviously those moves on their own won't kill. You have to create set ups with those moves for them to kill.

I used to think that f-smash was **** with toon link until i learned how to use it. Learn how to use all of your high KB moves and you won't complain if your throw is re-worked.

You dont even need to be complaining about kill moves when you 2/3/4 stock everyone. You complain about rob although you have always been winning.

 

[stingers]

rob doesnt have setups dude. dthrow to nair is basically it. or making someone fall on a gyro. lol

 

[HolyNightmare]

That's pure BS, because there's a lot of people who've beaten me or take me to last stock. ROB is fine how he is and he doesn't need any buffs nor any nerfs till there's actually data of him being "broken"

 

[zaf]

Create them! You are thinking more along the lines like this

" Ok, my opponent is at a high enough %, i need to do this move soon to kill them"

When it should be more like this

"Ok, my opponent is at a high enough percent, i know my opponent techs/rolls/*anything*, i can out think them and punish. Oh **** he is going to tech towards me, F-smash....."

Out think your opponent and the set up just happens, you don't need to always fall back to "Kill Moves", when you can out play your opponent for a kill

 

[HolyNightmare]

I love how you make it seem like I alway kill with dthrow to nair when it's not the case, most of the time it doesn't kill and I have to finish my opponent differently. I alway out play my opponents for kills since vBrawl, you ****ing think this is new to me?
You even start whining when I beat you in mk ditto in Brawl+, claiming im copying your ****? ahahaha I've learned everything from my MK from Ally. The Brawl+ version is no different except for Dthrow, I'm pretty sure you would whine with whoever character I would pick to be honest.