ROB+: Organic Meatbags Beware!

[Bandit]

I'm sorry but holy is the only player around here that even plays rob.

Wow, spoken with pure ignorance. (Trolling or not, you've said this a few times and it's incredibly wrong)

Yes veril i use TL. I am suppose to be a light character but di-ing out of the grab is very hard. Like i said,
maybe we are just di-ing wrong,
if so let us know how to di it.

Shiek i dont have a problem with, most of the time i can di cuz i am a light character, even if i get hit i will di the fair and live. This does not happen with rob.

@The Red: Yes and probably DI'ing Nair wrong as well when you get hit by that. Nair shouldn't kill you unless you are near the top of the stage unless you DI wrong.

How about:
A) Practice DI'ing this in a non-match so you can learn it
B) Ask Holy how to DI it

 

[kr3wman]

Holy is the only one that plays ROB in montreal...

 

[Veril]

Holy is not the only B+ Rob however, which was Bandit's point. He is the best, but there are also JC and Chibo repping him.

Rob has more than a few soft counters: Jigglypuff and MK come to mind immediately. I can't think of any truly one-sided matchups with Rob other than the ICs (who get ***** by nair), and they have gotten very little attention so I'm not even convinced of that. Even if his throw combos are great, he doesn't have nearly as reliable setups as the two characters I listed as having better throw games (Pika and Lucario). He can KO off a grab (potentially char, % and DI dependent), but so can: oh wait, everyone!

 

[kr3wman]

but it wasnt zaf's point... Zaf's point is that Holy is the only one that plays ROB well.

 

[zaf]

When i said holy is the only rob player, i meant in my region of montreal. No one else plays him so he is all the practise we get, which only happens at tournies.

About ness having a b-throw kill. I have never had a problem with that because i can camp the **** out of ness and he cant get grabs as easily as rob against me. ness is inferior to rob, but not in the sense that ness is **** either. How well or how many options does ness have for killing compared to rob? This is an honest question since we do not have a real ness main here, a few people play him though.

 

[Jer]

Let's get AvariceX up in this topic yo



*Summons AvariceX*

 

[JCaesar]

It's only because someone of Holy's caliber isn't playing Ness. Ness is better at getting grabs than ROB. Ness can literally combo a FF fair into grab. ROB has no grab setup that comes anywhere close to that reliability and ease. It's not even an arguable point. If you're getting grabbed by ROB a lot, it's because Holy is just that smart of a player.

 

[zaf]

You say that a ness can just djc ff fair, but in reality this just doesnt work like you say it does.
It is predictable and players are already expecting that from a ness player.
For this to work you would either have to be standing or shielding. The majority of the time, i would not be in either of those two states for a ness player to grab me. Why would i stand still and just let the ness player fair me when i know what would come next?

I play tl, and spend the majority of my time running away/around, and sh-ing. Rob can grab me out of the air, where as a ness cant. That is another reason why rob has more chances of grabbing me.

I dont think you can compare a ness grab kill to a rob one. Chet can play a lot of characters, i mean a lot. A LOOOOOOT. He has played ness before and i can say that ness does not get as much grabs as rob.

 

[chesterr01]

^ I don't stand by that. When's the last time I played ness against you? I'm sure you don't know how ness works, and neither do I, so before you say stuff and put my name in it, make sure it's accurate. I thought they changed ness' fair anyway. Sure I play a lot of chars, but I'm not a pro with everyone of them, just like in melee. I have no idea how imba djc fair into grab is, even though it was fairly easy in that really broken build a while back.

 

[zaf]

You do not know how a lot of chars work, but you still play seamlessly. You read and adapt and use the characters moves well. I know it was not a great example to use you, but it is the only experience i have with ness atm.

I still do not see a ness getting in as many grabs as a rob. Im not sure if it would work as well as i think it would, but if a ness is performing a djc ff fair on your shield, wouldnt you just be able to upb oos?

 

[chesterr01]

Depends with which character you're using, the spacing of the djc fair, whether it lands or not, and what's the usual trap the opponent uses if the djc fair gets shielded.
I have no idea of the new shield stun value the fair has, I think he'd be able to do a move before you can do something... and not many chars have up+b oos option, Marth, MK... Most others will have vulnerable frames so... Even upsmash oos would be iffy with like Fox.

Until I experience it myself, I can't tell. It's true that I adapt, but I don't have much choice, I only learn about other characters when I play random...

 

[JCaesar]

Only the last hit of Ness's fair was changed. The middle hits still have the 365 angle that drags you with them.

But that was just an example. My point is that ROB is not the only character who can kill with his throws. Other characters can get grabs just as easily and kill you without even having to follow up with an aerial because their throw is just that powerful on its own. Just think of ROB's dthrow->nair as a kill throw, only less reliable since it doesn't work on every character and it doesn't work when their % gets too high, and on top of that, the ROB player can still screw it up since they have to call your DI and the window is fairly tight.

 

[CountKaiser]

Since people wanted some info on Ness, I shall provide some.

Ness doesn't necessarily have a hard time killing. Dair to uair, uair itself, bair, dair, and fsmash can all kill. Landing these moves on a competent opponent, depending on what character they use, can be anywhere from okay to annoying. Should these fail, however, a FF fair into grab will always work. And since boundaries are being reduced, bthrow will be an even more potent killer.

And you don't have to be standing in order for the ff fair to work. You can drag an opponent from the air to the ground and then grab them. I've done it to Jiggs several times.

Also, not sure if this still works, but a perfectly djc bair on shield should guarantee a grab due to the shieldstun it causes, I THINK. It might not anymore, and in order for this to work, the bair must be canceled frame perfectly.

Either way, I'd wager that Ness can get a grab easier than a ROB can, since he has awesome setups into grabs.

 

[chesterr01]

Call your DI? What's up with people "calling" DIs or techs, if the guy DIs behind you, you do X, and if he DI's in front of you, you do Y, simple as that. If you're not reacting fast enough and you need to "call" DIs after throws, then you should pay more attention and/or try harder.

I don't think Holy calls the DI, I think he just attacks you, just like you can react to a spacies DI in melee to combo him with Marth after uthrow. Reaction > prediction, and reacting after a R.o.b. dthrow isn't as hard as techchasing a Melee Fox with Sheik on reaction.

Also, about R.O.B.s dthrow, if it works on a character, it will always work on that character, and even more at higher percentages, since there's more stun off the throw at high percentages, and the distance after the throw is not big enough to evade the throw. Also, like previously stated, most characters can't DI out of it.

Besides, it's not like Ness spams bthrow all stock, what's the point of Ness bthrowing at mid percentages? On top of that, he has a short grab range.
R.O.B. has more grab set ups then Ness and out camping Ness is easier than out camping R.O.B.
When you rush down Ness, it's less dangerous than rushing down R.O.B., more often than enough you'll get punished a lot harder if you're close to R.O.B. Ness having a kill throw can actually be motivated.

R.O.B. loses nothing from dthrowing to nair, except if the opponent is at low percentage or near the edge at low-mid percentages. After the initial combo, it's usually "back to dthrow" time. R.O.B. is a good character.

Also, how much damage does dthrow-nair do? Anyway, just make the move like a Falcon throw. At least give the opponent the chance DI the dthrow at higher percentages, and evade death.
Bad/No DI would result in linking the nair getting the kill/damage in, and DIing properly away will most likely put the opponent off stage anyway, so R.O.B. gets a free edge guard. At even higher percentages, Bad/No DI would get the opponent closer to the kill ceiling too, but DIing away would let you live, although you'd be farther from the edge, giving R.O.B. an easier edgeguard.
Would it still be ok like that? I'm just trying to find a good solution.
(also I hope you don't mind me referencing to melee all the time, I just assume you guys know what I'm talking about)

 

[Veril]

I still do not see a ness getting in as many grabs as a rob. Im not sure if it would work as well as i think it would, but if a ness is performing a djc ff fair on your shield, wouldnt you just be able to upb oos?

You need to play against more than just one Ness player.

Up-b OOS with TL isn't a good response to DJC FF fair. If the Ness player times and spaces this right and buffers a grab you will get grabbed prior to the up-b hitting.

Rob doesn't have comparable setups for a grab. Either way it doesn't change the fact that nothing about Rob's throw game is an outlier except for his f-throw startup, which wasn't the throw in question anyway.

Would it still be ok like that? I'm just trying to find a good solution.
(also I hope you don't mind me referencing to melee all the time, I just assume you guys know what I'm talking about)

I certainly don't mind the melee references.

I do mind the unsubstantiated claim that Rob has more grab setups than Ness (why Ness anyway? he doesn't have the best throw game, a much better example would be Pikachu/Lucario/Olimar).


Your solution would be good if there was a legitimate problem. I don't see how a 2-hit combo out of a grab is a huge issue when I'm focused on removing CGs and loop autocombos.

 

[CT Chia]

ROBs dthrow is no where near as good as it was a version or two ago.

It has more knockback now right? Just a little? It sure feels like it.

 

[zaf]

Besides, it's not like Ness spams bthrow all stock, what's the point of Ness bthrowing at mid percentages? On top of that, he has a short grab range.
R.O.B. has more grab set ups then Ness and out camping Ness is easier than out camping R.O.B.
When you rush down Ness, it's less dangerous than rushing down R.O.B., more often than enough you'll get punished a lot harder if you're close to R.O.B. Ness having a kill throw can actually be motivated.

R.O.B. loses nothing from dthrowing to nair, except if the opponent is at low percentage or near the edge at low-mid percentages. After the initial combo, it's usually "back to dthrow" time. R.O.B. is a good character.

this.


Also like chet previously stated in the same post, does ness really use b-throw at low/mid %? Im sure he doesn't due to the fact that it doesnt have as many follow ups compared to his other throws. Where as rob only needs a d-throw and then tries to get another d-throw in. Holy goes for grabs as often as he can get them and they all mainly end in a d-throw > nair. I also tested it yesterday and at low % d-throw > nair does set up nicely for follow ups. Granted it doesnt combo into another move after the nair, but whats stopping the rob from pivot-grabbing/ grabbing the player again right after into the same d-throw.

 

[zaf]

sorry for the double post but i had to address chibo

You need to play against more than just one Ness player.

Up-b OOS with TL isn't a good response to DJC FF fair. If the Ness player times and spaces this right and buffers a grab you will get grabbed prior to the up-b hitting.

Rob doesn't have comparable setups for a grab. Either way it doesn't change the fact that nothing about Rob's throw game is an outlier except for his f-throw startup, which wasn't the throw in question anyway.



I certainly don't mind the melee references.

I do mind the unsubstantiated claim that Rob has more grab setups than Ness (why Ness anyway? he doesn't have the best throw game, a much better example would be Pikachu/Lucario/Olimar).


Your solution would be good if there was a legitimate problem. I don't see how a 2-hit combo out of a grab is a huge issue when I'm focused on removing CGs and loop autocombos.

I was just saying upb oos in general, not just tl. i also use mk which i think would work against ness

ROBs dthrow is no where near as good as it was a version or two ago.

It has more knockback now right? Just a little? It sure feels like it.

dude you make me laugh so much. Please stop comparing anything or any character to older builds. The older builds are different from this one and a lot has changed. Rob and a lot of other characters had broken properties due to how we were going about the changes. All of your posts are " he isnt as good as before". Thats all you do, you come in here and say that.
you have no actual discussion and its annoying to see a name in red discuss as such.

 

[Veril]

whats stopping the rob from pivot-grabbing/ grabbing the player again right after into the same d-throw.

The fact that it doesn't work would probably be the most significant problem with that. I mean, not being a string or a combo...

lol

Please stop comparing anything or any character to older builds

Agreed. I pay little if any attention to statements that reference 5.0. Let's just pretend that build didn't happen ;p

The only exception to this really is when the hitstun change causes a move to no longer induce tumble, that's pretty significant.

 

[zaf]

No no, i mean look at it this way.

At low %, rob grabs you, d-throw > nair. You fly forward and will be landing on the ground soon. ( provided that is the option you took), once you land he can possibly grab you again. How he lands this grab is up to him. I know it is not a string or a combo, but it is a set up. You grab and throw someone, hit them and you want to grab again. It works. Therefore you set that second grab up. Does it seem any clearer :S ?

 

[chesterr01]

This set up is not character dependent though, it's a general set up lol. Every character can grab when the guy is landing (assuming there's an airdodge or blocked attack occuring).

 

[zaf]

Yes i know. It doesn't have to be character dependent. I was just stating that d-throw > nair is actually useful at low %. Therefore making it a clear go to grab everytime

 

[chesterr01]

Oh... ok I see where you're going.
Since his game revolves a lot on either solid combos at low percentages (assuming these combos aren't started with a grab), or grabs, grab is usually 1st or 2nd optimal strat when up close. R.O.B.s usually go for grabs a lot at low% and high%.

At this point we would have to know, what are R.O.B. other tactics when we take out his grabs? I know ftilt zones well and is safe, dtilt/jab lead into good follow ups and are pretty safe. His only unsafe aerial is dair, nair is hard to punish, uair doesn't miss often (at least, you should be comboing into it most of the time), and fair is a good move. Fair has a lot of mix ups after a sh fair like air dodge, another fair, or simply a spaced fast falled fair into poke or dash attack. Adding grabs into that mix makes him pretty solid.

Oh yeah (still trying to find solutions), if R.O.B. dthrows into nair, and you DI away to not DI off the top at higher percentages, R.O.B. gets a free laser attempt for the extra push. Then again, if the dthrow could be DIed to evade the nair, the laser would still have a chance of hitting at high%. And the pace would still be good considering that R.O.B. gets a charged laser every 20 seconds, right? That wouldn't necessarily nerf the character in my opinion, we do not want a nerf. I think he's near perfect except for the throw issue. If that's Fixed then we can move on to other issues like Yoshi's upthrow, the splash hitboxes on his eggs, the fact that he can eggroll recover more than once and that some people don't even question that, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Bandit]

Yes i know. It doesn't have to be character dependent. I was just stating that d-throw > nair is actually useful at low %. Therefore making it a clear go to grab everytime

Just about every character, to my knowledge, has an Uthrow or Dthrow or both that is useful to combo at low%, mid%, and high%. If it isn't a true combo, it's a good string or a positional thing.

Plus, you are Toon Link. Why the hell are you anywhere near ROB? Camp him hardcore and you won't have to deal with his grab. Besides, his dthrow is not broken, it is not anywhere near as powerful, and nair should not kill you until mid 100's or higher if you DI the nair right.

 

[Veril]

everytime I come to this thread I'm distracted by how awesome Chet's avatar is...

Yoshi's side-b stall is getting removed by limiting the egg-roll jump refreshes to 1 as opposed to infinite O.o

I remember when Holy told me Rob's d-throw sucked and raged about how he lost his combos... good times. I still don't know if he was cleverly trolling me lol

I was just saying upb oos in general, not just tl. i also use mk which i think would work against ness

MK's up-b doesn't have inv frames on startup like it did in vBrawl. Perfectly SHFFled aerials often lead into frame traps on shield due to ALR and increased shieldstun. I know that in the case of Marth, you can time a SHFFl non-tipper fair on shield and MK can't up-b OOS before the grab (and both Ness and Marth have the same fair ALR and startup on standing grab...)

 

[JCaesar]

Call your DI? What's up with people "calling" DIs or techs, if the guy DIs behind you, you do X, and if he DI's in front of you, you do Y, simple as that. If you're not reacting fast enough and you need to "call" DIs after throws, then you should pay more attention and/or try harder.

I don't think Holy calls the DI, I think he just attacks you, just like you can react to a spacies DI in melee to combo him with Marth after uthrow. Reaction > prediction, and reacting after a R.o.b. dthrow isn't as hard as techchasing a Melee Fox with Sheik on reaction.

Obviously it's not as hard as a lot of Melee stuff. I just mean that there is a room for error, unlike, say, Ness's bthrow.

Also, about R.O.B.s dthrow, if it works on a character, it will always work on that character, and even more at higher percentages, since there's more stun off the throw at high percentages, and the distance after the throw is not big enough to evade the throw. Also, like previously stated, most characters can't DI out of it.

That is incorrect. Dthrow has growth. Eventually it will send everyone out of range of nair (and not at completely ridiculous %s except FFers). Some characters get thrown too far before they even get to kill %.

Also, how much damage does dthrow-nair do?

20%

why Ness anyway? he doesn't have the best throw game, a much better example would be Pikachu/Lucario/Olimar

That's my fault. I was trying to think of a character who has both better grab setups and better kill power with his throw game than ROB. Ness is the first one that popped into my mind.

ROBs dthrow is no where near as good as it was a version or two ago.

It has more knockback now right? Just a little? It sure feels like it.

Nope, just a little less hitstun.

Yes i know. It doesn't have to be character dependent. I was just stating that d-throw > nair is actually useful at low %. Therefore making it a clear go to grab everytime

Dthrow->nair is never the best option ROB has from a grab at low %. Never. It never does the most damage or has the best followups or the best gimp setups. I pointed out why a couple days ago earlier in this discussion. If that's what Holy does, that's his choice, but there are better options.

What are we even arguing about anymore?

 

[Veril]

d-throw nair isn't that great. If I get a low% grab with anyone (that I play) but Jiggs and I only pull off a 20% combo, I'm upset with myself ;p

Granted, I've spent a LOT of time working on throw combos so I have a bit of an advantage by virtue of knowing more of them than uh... anyone, but still, 20% is not something to **** your pants over.

What are we even arguing about anymore?

You JC... its about you.

 

[ThatGuy]

Yoshi's side-b stall is getting removed by limiting the egg-roll jump refreshes to 1 as opposed to infinite O.o

OMG thank you!!!!

 

[zaf]

chet posting

WOW WTF this is why i was referring to it as zangief piledriver.

the piledriver throw is upthrow. i know we've been talking about dthrow, but holy never did that on me, he used the other throw to nair. that's the throw i've been complaining about, not the jackhammer throw. also i have to idea what are the effects of the jackhammer throw is but if they are talking about dthrow here too, then =\ because i only played for 30 seconds.

 

[Veril]

chet posting

WOW WTF this is why i was referring to it as zangief piledriver.

the piledriver throw is upthrow. i know we've been talking about dthrow, but holy never did that on me, he used the other throw to nair. that's the throw i've been complaining about, not the jackhammer throw.

reacting after a R.o.b. dthrow isn't as hard as techchasing a Melee Fox with Sheik on reaction.

Also, about R.O.B.s dthrow...

R.O.B. loses nothing from dthrowing to nair, except if the opponent is at low percentage or near the edge at low-mid percentages....

Also, how much damage does dthrow-nair do

Then again I can't DI out of R.O.B.'s down throw

Anyway, I think everything that has to be said about dthrow has been said.

 

[ThatGuy]

I thought it was dthrow too

 

[CountKaiser]

Wait, what?

All that arguing was all for nothing?

 

[kr3wman]

I think the only difference that it makes is a letter.

 

[JCaesar]

Wait, you're complaing about uthrow??? Uthrow has even more growth than dthrow and doesn't combo at all on any character at kill %s.

That's it. I'm now convinced that this was just an elaborate troll by the entirety of Montreal.

GJ Montreal, you got me.

 

[Bandit]

Wait, you're complaing about uthrow??? Uthrow has even more growth than dthrow and doesn't combo at all on any character at kill %s.

That's it. I'm now convinced that this was just an elaborate troll by the entirety of Montreal.

GJ Montreal, you got me.

I think you just gave them waaaaaaaaay too much credit...

@Veril

I haven't seen that one, and my sides still hurt from laughing at that picture.

-----

ROB+ is good, watch out for the "Fair Trap"

:bandit:

 

[zaf]

No, we meant u-throw the whole time. I do not know why we assumed it was the d-throw. sorry guys, let's get back on topic.

also, yes i know i should be camping holy hard with tl. He likes to use side-b to travel through all of my projectiles and get closer to me. Also there is a gyro constantly on the stage taking room away from me. Allowing him to close in on me. I also go MK, so now i will just state when i am talking about MK and when i am talking about TL so as not to confuse anyone.

 

[Bandit]

ROB's side b has a ton of holes in it to hit him with a projectile (drop a bomb on his head) plus he's vulnerable to punishment while in it from above. Just take his gyro if it bugs you. ROBs (in general) usually go nuts about their gyro, plus, if you grab it and throw it up, he is left without it for some time. Go nuts with the projectiles.

 

[CT Chia]

dude you make me laugh so much. Please stop comparing anything or any character to older builds. The older builds are different from this one and a lot has changed. Rob and a lot of other characters had broken properties due to how we were going about the changes. All of your posts are " he isnt as good as before". Thats all you do, you come in here and say that.
you have no actual discussion and its annoying to see a name in red discuss as such.

What's wrong with mentioning other versions? Are we supposed to just completely forget about the past? People were commenting/talking about ROBs dthrow and stuff so I was saying that it's not even as good as the last version (and alluding to him not even being broken then). And the hitstun change (almost forgot about it that JC brought up) is a BIG change. It changed it just enough to take away ROB's guaranteed kill on MK. I don't remember 5.0 too well since it's been a while since I've played it, but there was a window of about 8-10 percent in the 90s where if you got a grab on MK dthrow nair would work regardless of MK's DI, and the nair would kill him regardless of DI. It's no where near as good now in 6.0, and I'm not even sure if it works anymore. It might, but if it does it's a MUCH smaller window. I just haven't been playing Brawl+ as much since 6.0 came out.

So I'm not 100% in on the scene right now, you can't act like I shouldn't/am not aloud to discuss anything here. I'm still extremely talented in Brawl, and have proven myself multiple times in Brawl+ no matter when I enter a tournament.

 

[zaf]

thats cool and all, but the other versions had problems. That is what you dont seem to understand.
That's like me saying, oh toon link isnt as good as he used to be in ghs1, where his zair was a guarenteed follow up everytime. That was a problem with the character that wasn't touched until we took our heads out of our *****. All your arguements are just comparisons to when rob was a hell of a lot better. If you compare him now to then, then of course he wont seem as good, but that cant be said for any character no? lolz

 

[JCaesar]

No, we meant u-throw the whole time. I do not know why we assumed it was the d-throw. sorry guys, let's get back on topic.

Soooo... what is the complaint about uthrow then? It's a very mediocre throw. It doesn't kill most characters until >160% or so, and it doesn't combo into anything anywhere near kill %. It combos well at very low % but so does everything else. It's borderline useless and the only worse throw ROB has is fthrow.