Ophelius
Smash Ace
The question was "what's the point of religon", right?
Wow, something like this is debateable?
Wow, something like this is debateable?
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Religion: what is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Huah!
- Thread starter PukeTShirt
- Start date
I never meant they where ****ed forever, I remember passages that state Jesus went into hell to save the "righteous Heathens", but that does not override the fact that for thousands of years these righteous people where in Hell.
Yeah, it must be nice to be a serial rapist and murderer who learns the error of his ways and truly repents his sins to go to heaven while millions of good people in Asia are condemned to the eternal fires that burn but do not consume because they were raised with the wrong religion.
That is sooooooo fair.
That is sooooooo fair.
commonyoshi
Smash Hero
I've always thought that people went into an unconsious state between the time they die and the time God does the final Judgement thing. I dont recall having a specific verse to back up this statement, but do you have one to back up yours that people lived in the afterlife?
I never thought that earth's time would matter once people died. :/
All were saved by grace. Even the most pious person belongs in hell so the comparisons between the saintly unbeliever and the wicked redeemed dont hold much ground. I think a better arguement would be to ask why we just dont all end up in the same paradise when we die.
Thats kind of the point. He loves us so much he is going to scorch us for eternity. Or as South Park puts it, "God gets power from our sadness."
There tend to be two schools of thought on it, that either when we die we immediately are sent to heaven or hell, or we aren't sent until Judgment day. I've always thought the first one.
I prefer the ideals of Greek mythology that no matter what you did in your life your still sent to Hades. I mean yes, there are several levels of Hades some worse than others, but the fact of the matter was that no matter what you did in life you were still ****ed.
The reason I like this idea is because of the fact that there is no in between, no wondering about the saintly unbeliever or the wicked redeemed, you all go to the same place. Now I'm sure your thinking, well, what about the people who lived proper lives, who lived for there God's and did nothing wrong? Well, what about them? Its the almighty that chooses what happens to the pitiful mortals, if they say that everyone is going to Hades when they die, then thats that. If people wanted to live good lives then they did, if they wanted to be murderous criminals they could. Now this may not seem like the ideal situation and we all know by now that Greek legend is just that, legend (Forgive me lord Zeus) but its the idea that everyones equal no matter what that I like. Im just sayin........
The reason I like this idea is because of the fact that there is no in between, no wondering about the saintly unbeliever or the wicked redeemed, you all go to the same place. Now I'm sure your thinking, well, what about the people who lived proper lives, who lived for there God's and did nothing wrong? Well, what about them? Its the almighty that chooses what happens to the pitiful mortals, if they say that everyone is going to Hades when they die, then thats that. If people wanted to live good lives then they did, if they wanted to be murderous criminals they could. Now this may not seem like the ideal situation and we all know by now that Greek legend is just that, legend (Forgive me lord Zeus) but its the idea that everyones equal no matter what that I like. Im just sayin........
slave1
Smash Lord
Morals came from riligion. the great country of America came from religion. and weak minded people dont grasp onto religion. religion is there for anybody who wants it. and if you want to find out what religion is all about and why people join it go to a church sometime. call some missionaries from different religions. i purpose the LDS relgion. partly because i am and i quite enjoy it. and i dont know about other riligions but i get amazing things from being apart of this faith.
Aesir
Smash Master
Actually America was founded on the idea to have any belief you want without the government saying otherwise.
One of our founding fathers didn't even believe in god >_>
Also morals don't just come from religion, they can come from anything. To be honest religion has a lot of evil things in it. For instance the Old Testament. >_>
commonyoshi
Smash Hero
I dissagree. ^_^
chaos_Leader
Smash Lord
Religion provides psychological solidarity, a sense of comunity and purpose to many individuals. With most religions come a set of moral laws that one can follow to lead a fulfilling life. Most nations' laws are based on some religious text. The "Bad" of religion generally comes not from the religion itself, but rather from gross misinterpretations of such a given religion. Example: 9/11 bombings and Islam, less than a handful of radical Islamic leaders can give a bad name for an entire religion. Example 2: Crusades and Christianity, same as above. Religion is in some ways like politics, you may not like it, but without it, some things just wouldn't get done. The Pastor at the church my family attends* is one of the kindest, most understanding people I know. even if I don't follow a given religion I cannot deny that it produces some of the nicest people I've met.
*I was raised with a religious background, my parents are devout Lutheran Christians. Sometimes I attend the church services, however I do not consider myself a practicing Christian, or any other religion for that matter
*I was raised with a religious background, my parents are devout Lutheran Christians. Sometimes I attend the church services, however I do not consider myself a practicing Christian, or any other religion for that matter
Aesir
Smash Master
Condoning slavery isn't evil?
commonyoshi
Smash Hero
The slavery in the Bible and the slavery we saw during the colonial ages are completely different. People in the Old Testament would sell themselves for a certain number of years as a way of getting out of debt. (Every fifty years was the Year of Jubilee in which all slaves were freed and land returned to its original family owners as a way keeping society from becoming one where the rich ruled the poor.) No one was mistreated or thought as sub-human.
Have you seen the Seinfeld episodes where Jerry sues a man who has no money so the judge orders the man to be Jerry's butler? It's like that, except there is no judge. The man voluntarily works under a contract.
Yes, it is considered slavery, but I'd hardly call it evil.
Have you seen the Seinfeld episodes where Jerry sues a man who has no money so the judge orders the man to be Jerry's butler? It's like that, except there is no judge. The man voluntarily works under a contract.
Yes, it is considered slavery, but I'd hardly call it evil.
And colonial slavery wasn't evil because we where giving poor africans the chance to live in nice homes in America, and we freed some of them, right?
If someone was only a slave for 50 years, would you really say "No, you weren't a slave! You didn't work your entire life!"? By that definition, Michael Douglas wasn't a slave. And that was pure evil.
If someone was only a slave for 50 years, would you really say "No, you weren't a slave! You didn't work your entire life!"? By that definition, Michael Douglas wasn't a slave. And that was pure evil.
smash superstar
Smash Ace
I used to have no religion for the longest time....and just like 4 years ago i became a Christian and I know im not the same person i was before.
Its something to hold on to true....but it doesnt mean you are weak minded...your probaly more weak minded for not opening up to a religion.
If it wasnt for religion i dont think i would just what true love is...and it shows you actualy believe and will stand for something
and true no one actualy knows 100% where you go if you go anywhere when you die....but i have confident there is a God out there and we will go somewhere after life here on Earth if we believe in him
Its something to hold on to true....but it doesnt mean you are weak minded...your probaly more weak minded for not opening up to a religion.
If it wasnt for religion i dont think i would just what true love is...and it shows you actualy believe and will stand for something
and true no one actualy knows 100% where you go if you go anywhere when you die....but i have confident there is a God out there and we will go somewhere after life here on Earth if we believe in him
Aesir
Smash Master
Try reading the OT before you defend it. Because I don't think you're fully understanding what slavery was like for them.
You could only be set free after a 6 year sentence if you were Hebrew. If you owned any other slave they could stay with you indefinitely as they are your property.
Lets also not forget the bible has a way of keeping Hebrew male slaves permanent slaves just by the owner keeping their wife and children hostage. What kind of **** is this?
Exodus 21:2-6
Leviticus 25:44-46
Read over those or perhaps you should read over the whole OT.
Lets also not forget the **** issues in the bible that were completely unjust for women. Or even better murder is condoned numerous times in the bible.
I dunno about you, but what kind of values is this teaching?
Tryptomine
Smash Journeyman
I can't find the original quote by Richard Dawkins, so I'll have to quote him by proxy by quoting Yahtzee (of ZP fame). Even if this particular quote is aimed more at patriotism, I think it illustrates my point here equally well.
Pikaville
Pikaville returns 10 years later.
That is what its all about.Not every religion can be right(can they?) only one of them can.(If even right?)I think the first religions could have been thought up by(very smart) people who were trying to think if there was any life after death.It was probably really depressing/unfullfilling to think that there was nothing else for us except living and dieing with no reality after death.Realising this,they probably began to tell their children(because it would probably offer them a bright happier future/psyki) that there was this almighty "GOD" that granted you an eternal afterlife,reincarnation etc. if you lived your live in accordance to how "GOD" saw fit(which would be your basic set of morals)Stories such as this were probably created all over the world,each with its own set of "morals"(which would be based around the already existing culture/ideals in the area)
So I beleive that religions were created to give future generations something to live for and to give peace of mind knowing that you wont have to just live life then die and stay in a world never ending,consciousless blackness.
All the religions could be right if some super advanced scientists called Jesus,Buddah,Allah etc created our universe in their super advanced labratory.(thats a whole different arguement though)
What do you think?
(Very
baked
Matt
Banned via Administration
pikaville is very wise. Albeit stoned.
slave 1 is not. I've banned people before just for being stupid. Not for necessarily breaking any rules, just because I couldn't bear their ignorance any longer. You're on my watch list.
slave 1 is not. I've banned people before just for being stupid. Not for necessarily breaking any rules, just because I couldn't bear their ignorance any longer. You're on my watch list.
Debt slavery is like regular slavery, only it's okay because the person was poor before they became a slave.
Pikaville
Pikaville returns 10 years later.
Wise really?Never had one of my posts quoted as wise.
I(by definition)am Catholic.I dont believe in God or in any of the teachings of the church but I hope for something more after life.
Aesir
Smash Master
Slavery is evil no matter what justifications you put on it, and I'm still in shock I was given an episode of Seinfeld as possible justifications.
Furthermore if my memory serves me correctly, that person was still a human being. Butler =/= Slave.
in the OT these people were treated as live stock, how is that not evil?
Furthermore if my memory serves me correctly, that person was still a human being. Butler =/= Slave.
in the OT these people were treated as live stock, how is that not evil?
What? Catholic Christians believe in God you know.
Slavery isn't necessarily evil. I am not going to defend slavery, but in the time of the Greeks they had slaves but not in the sense of the Hebrews or the colonies. All people, slaves and freed men, had rights and responsibilities. You couldn't just beat your slave or treat them harshly, they were still people. There were in fact very rich slaves who, themselves, owned their own slaves. And you could buy yourself out of slavery (some people found it more advantageous to remain slaves). There was also a separation of property between what the slave owned and what his master owned.
This all fell apart though, but it does show a model where slavery worked to most peoples benefit. It all comes down to treating all people humanely, regardless of station in life. If you first recognize that they are people with rights takes priority over your ownership of them as property, then you can establish a working philanthropic slavery model.
Again, I do agree that it is right or condone slavery. With our economic and industrial technology, we have moved beyond that. (Until we make humanoid robots and "enslave" them )
This all fell apart though, but it does show a model where slavery worked to most peoples benefit. It all comes down to treating all people humanely, regardless of station in life. If you first recognize that they are people with rights takes priority over your ownership of them as property, then you can establish a working philanthropic slavery model.
Again, I do agree that it is right or condone slavery. With our economic and industrial technology, we have moved beyond that. (Until we make humanoid robots and "enslave" them
)
Aesir
Smash Master
Thats sounds more like a boss / worker relationship rather then a slavery relationship. The idea of treating a human below a human is immoral and honestly thats all through out the bible.
Well, you are still "owned" by an individual and have a slightly different set of rights. But you still have rights, unlike the Hebrew brand of slavery.
Forgive my inquiry but does anybody really believe that we can prove or disprove whether religion is necessary? Bringing up different verses from the Bible and "facts" from hundreds of years ago probably won't make someone like Common say "You know, you're right. Religion has no purpose". One of the many missions of a Christian is to spread Christianity. The main mission of an Atheist is to remain an Atheist and keep others from shoving religions down their throats. All this discussion will do is create bad blood between smashers. I vote to drop the subject and pick up a different thread.
Some posts in this thread make me want to strangle people.
I fluctuate between atheism and agnosticism, because sometimes I wish there was some sort of afterlife; something to look forward to after our death. But just because I might think there's a higher power doesn't mean I'm going to apply a religion to my life.
Why would you be weak-minded for not opening up to a religion? Especially if you have experience with that religion already and know its members are fake phonies who are into sensationalism and fluffy gospels, much like most of the New Age church today, and Catholicism, which, I'm sorry to say for any of those in this thread that might be Catholic, has gone way downhill from what it initially was.
Believing in and standing for something in and of itself is foolish if the thing you're believing in is wrong.
.....so let me get this straight. You believe there is some sort of higher intelligence out there, but you don't know 100%, so you immediately latch onto Christianity, even though you're not sure of it? That's just dumb. If you're going to follow something, follow it through fully. There's nothing I hate more than people who claim to be a part of something, and then make a bad name for everyone else because they're fake. There's people like this in any religion / organization there is.
I fluctuate between atheism and agnosticism, because sometimes I wish there was some sort of afterlife; something to look forward to after our death. But just because I might think there's a higher power doesn't mean I'm going to apply a religion to my life.
straight8
Banned via Warnings
wisdom speaks... lol..
I have a question: if christian are all dumb, how come einstein believed in God? And basically every nobel prize winning scientist ever?
Your experience asis for what is true, RDK. So you meet some fake christians and throw all of christianity out the window.. does that make you smarter?
If you think christianity is wrong, prove it to me. I have my own proof it's real,my own experience. What happens when someone from a church is healed of nicotine addiction? Or when someone's back is healed instantly? Must not be God, cause in my experience, he's not real.. (sarcasm)
I have a question, RDK: if you are right and there is no afterlife and there is no God, what is the point of life? To have as much fun as we can? To beat as many people in smash as posssible? But what if there is a God? What if he does love you, and what if he can make your life a wonderful thing, and what if you can talk to God and know him? Think about that. and don't throw people with genuine hearts into some "christian pool" where you stereotype them. If there is something that's a lie in this world, it saying all christians are like that.
Jazriel
Smash Ace
www.godisimaginary.com
and
www.whywontgodhealamputees.com
Food for thought. They're non-offensive websites. I don't know who started them, but their attempt is to, as logically and rationally as possible, show why religion is a delusion and god doesn't exist. I enjoy them mightily and I think all people who have an interest in this thread should read them as well.
and
www.whywontgodhealamputees.com
Food for thought. They're non-offensive websites. I don't know who started them, but their attempt is to, as logically and rationally as possible, show why religion is a delusion and god doesn't exist. I enjoy them mightily and I think all people who have an interest in this thread should read them as well.
commonyoshi
Smash Hero
It was a contract. Businesses and people for hire sign them all the time, and they are expected to fulfill them just like a slave is expected to serve his master. However, our economy is different now so the idea of slaves in our society would be weird and rather uneccessary. Who knows? Someday after we have robots doing our bidding we might see the contracts we have presently to be crude. Crude, but not immoral.
No, it was evil because they were treated horribly and done without their consent. The Hebrew society was different.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to undermine my knowledge of the Bible by saying I dont read it. You may or may not be right, you'd be correct if we were talking about Revelations, but that's hardly the point.
Maybe you're the one not understanding what it was like for them.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus 25: 39-42;&version=31;
The life of a slave was always chosen. If I chose to be a worker under a contract who's only pay required was food, clothing, housing, and the little, extra stuff then would you proclaim my employer evil?
What you just did with that verse was clearly never the way the law was supposed to be intended. I'm not denying that something like what you painted out never happened, because someone corrupt would probably do such a thing, but that was never the purpose of the law. People fake mommentary insanity to get a lighter sentence for murder, but that doesn't mean our society thinks murder is alright.
Murder? Where.
ZOMG, see what he did there? Straight8 is such a card.
I never said all Christians are dumb. But most of the Christians today, or at least people who call themselves Christians, are.
Again--I didn't throw all of Christianity out of the window; I was making a point about how some sects of Christianity are phony. Don't put words in my mouth.
If you're talking about TV preachers, then you're kidding yourself. Ever hear of Benny Hin?
I have to stop you right there, because I never said I didn't believe in an afterlife. Try reading my posts harder.
What is the point of life? Who am I to say what the point of life is? We haven't figured everything out yet, including the origins of the universe, so I can't make that call on the flip of a dime.
If there was a God that loved me, He wouldn't play stupid "shadow games" with faith and make people believe in things that aren't real. I'll briefly restate my points about the Christian God being a paradox.
- If God is almighty, why did he feel the need to create humans? Surely God Himself doesn't need a personal relationship with fallen creatures.
- God is all-loving? The same God that d*mns people to Hell for an eternity for merely not hearing about his Son? Sounds like a loving God to me.
- Why did God choose to create sin--or a lack of good? Surely if He's almighty, he could have created something better than free will. He sets the rules.
Aesir
Smash Master
How does that prove my point wrong?
It was not always chosen, and the fact that the laws could be manipulated to a point where your employer would treat you lower then live stock that speaks volumes about the books author. Grey areas are nice in primitive societies
futhermore:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus 21:7-11;&version=31;
Lol man I'm glad I wasn't a woman in those times.
The example you just gave is incorrect, and I love how you hide behind. "well it wasn't suppose to be that way" Well the fact that it clearly can without any repercussions shows god didn't think things out fully.
Funny if he's suppose to be all knowing and powerful you would think he wouldn't allow such a Grey area to exist.
Death to a whole town?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:13-19;&version=31;
Death to Homosexuals?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus 20:13;&version=31;
wtf is this ****?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 22:20-21;&version=31;
Do I have to continue?
Yeah, you chose your city to get sacked and for you to be forced into slavery because the Jews decided to go to war with you (because god told them to).
commonyoshi
Smash Hero
That slaves weren't as oh-so-miserable as you play them out to be.
So the sum of your arguement is that God would not allow grey areas, correct? This is purely a subjective arguement which you chose to believe, and I cant phase you on that. But listen to this, there is no way any law could cover every little situation that may occur. Dont murder? What if it was self defense? Oh yeah, what if the victim was purposefully provoked to give a reason for the murder? Oh, but what if the murder victim was a horrible man who was not found guilty of eating babies, and it was out of justice that this act was done? But wait, what if this murderer was the one who gave him the babies to eat in the first place? yadda yadda yadda
It is impossible for a law to be perfect. Moses would have died writing it all down. That's why there were appointed God-fearing judges to handle things like this who could be appealed to in times of need. Please note that as God makes it pretty clear that He hates bribery, extortion, and favortism.
I cant really say anything if you dont say something first...
Please do.
If you are going to use the Bible as a text against me then the Bible is going to be used against you.
Devil worship and homosexuality are considered abominations and detestable practices. However, you would see nothing wrong with these as you dont believe that Satan is real or that God considers some things acts against His creation. I'm not sure how our arguement on this matter can go on if you dont at least try to see why these would be evil acts against God. We just cant see eye to eye.
As for the virgin thing, see verse 17... Yeah, I'm not going to pretend having "proof" isn't weird, but it was done by the parents. I dont see how it is immoral. It's just really, really, REALLY weird by our standards. If you're argueing that sex before marriage isn't bad then that's also something we're not seeing eye to eye with.
Besides the "some things acts His creation"(which I find appalling!), you are right that I don't believe in your god or Stan. Stan is a made up character to scare parents. I don't believe in Stan or Kyle or Eric. But I do believe in Kenny, I saw him just last week on a milk carton (although he was standing on his hands, upside down).
Aesir
Smash Master
But they were, what because of one group of slaves we ignore the others? there were more groups then just isrealites
If god was so perfect he could make a law that would not allow such a large Grey area. There was never a law saying you couldn't do this or that to slaves but it made **** sure it mentioned they were your property.
Again if god was perfect, how come he couldn't make them perfect? I have a hard time believing a perfect being couldn't at least make something with less Grey area then whats listed in the bible
I'm mearly pointing out things as I see them. It's quite obvious the bible supports evil actions.
Devil worship? Funny that verse never once said devil worship, so you think other gods are just the devil? What about Muslims? you believe their god Allah to be the devil also?
How is it immoral? maybe the girl took a liking to a certain male. Hell her father could have ***** her, you don't know.
How is sex without marriage immoral anyway? I'd like to hear the argument for this.
and lol @ homosexuality being immoral, you realize homosexuality isn't some anomaly just recently discovered? it happens all the time in nature.
Since you want more.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:7-12;&version=31;
Lol I'm sure a lot of fundies would love to practice this.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 17:2-5 ;&version=31;
Seems like a way to keep the world afraid so they don't "think"
Theres many others if I quoted all of them that would be a good part of the bible.
Grandeza
Smash Master
I'm 12 so I'm not too sure what my standpoint is. I'm Christian, but really my parents are deciding that for me. I'm trying to grasp the concept of life after death but I think I'm leaning towards being an aetheist. I'd like to be wrong about no god and no afterlife but i dont think I'll be changing my opinion any time soon.