Religion: what is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Huah!

[Venom Dream]

For some reason, when religious conversations start up, the words 'true' and 'truth' tend to pop up. A lot.

Who's to say there's one definitive truth? And if there is, who's to say you're that one single person on the Earth that knows it? You're giving yourself too much credit.
When something can't be explained, falling back to, "Well, since ____ is true, it follows that..." isn't always an acceptible response.

This always bugs me I just thought I'd get it off my gigantic muscly chest

 

[commonyoshi]

Yeah, you chose your city to get sacked and for you to be forced into slavery because the Jews decided to go to war with you (because god told them to).

The Jews never took slaves from the cities they attacked. I looked through all of Joshua and Judges, books with lots of warfare, and couldn't find anything you described.

But they were, what because of one group of slaves we ignore the others? there were more groups then just isrealites

Again, you assume that the Jews invaded a city and took slaves, but this was never the case. They only bought them and in that time it was common to sell yourself to get out of debt rather than getting thrown in jail for life.

If god was so perfect he could make a law that would not allow such a large Grey area. There was never a law saying you couldn't do this or that to slaves but it made **** sure it mentioned they were your property.
...
Again if god was perfect, how come he couldn't make them perfect? I have a hard time believing a perfect being couldn't at least make something with less Grey area then whats listed in the bible

Slaves were property, but you make it sound like God commanded slave owners to do horrible things to their slaves. This was never the case. Look into the New Testament for more verses about this. You were supoosed to look after their safety, provide them with clothing, food, shelter, yadda yadda. heck, sometimes they'd get wages, but that was really up to the master's generosity.

Didn't you read what I said? Laws can never be perfect because human laws are under the constraints of a finite universe. This is something most people cant seem to understand about God, a perfect being who is outside third-dementional boundaries. It's like asking if God could microwave a burrito so hot even He Himself couldn't eat it. There were God-fearing judges who mediated all legal decisions. The Law was just a boundary for them to follow.

I'm mearly pointing out things as I see them. It's quite obvious the bible supports evil actions.

I'm still not seeing it. Do you think police officers "support evil actions" since they capture people and throw them in jail? I sort of see your stance on this, but to carry out justice for the good of society and future generations you need to do things that in themselves aren't so great but certainly isn't immoral. (I wouldn't consider police officers immoral) Look at what happened to Israel whenever they started worshiping other gods and so forth. Their nation fell apart.

Devil worship? Funny that verse never once said devil worship, so you think other gods are just the devil? What about Muslims? you believe their god Allah to be the devil also?

Um... yes it did. >_>
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:13;&version=31;

Other gods are demons, or "devils" if you prefer to call them that. Idols are little figurines people carve for themselves. They have no power.

Yeah, Allah is most probably a demon from my point of view. How else did the religion survive and grow so large? I dont doubt that there is some supernatural force behind it. Using this point of view, if I was somehow a Muslim I'd probably think the same way about Christianity. The cool thing about Islam and Christianity is that both were predicted way back during Abraham's lifetime.

How is it immoral? maybe the girl took a liking to a certain male. Hell her father could have ***** her, you don't know.

How is sex without marriage immoral anyway? I'd like to hear the argument for this.

If the father ***** her then she obviously would have told the judges or something to that effect. The father would have been killed for incest. All you're doing right now is proving how necessary it was for the Judges to govern the people. There are many variables which can come up which can lead to someone being guilty or innocent. No law can ever cover every single situation.

Alright, but I dont think I can convince you on the sex before marriage thing, but perhaps we can at least come to an understanding. Sex was meant for one male with one female for them to be exclusive with. It says in the Bible that with sex "two are made one in union" or something like that, and this union should never be broken as long as both members are alive. Adultery or divorce divides this union appart, and God hates these acts.

Tell me, do you think adultery is evil? If yes then ask yourself why; you could probably follow the logic back to sex before marriage.

and lol @ homosexuality being immoral, you realize homosexuality isn't some anomaly just recently discovered? it happens all the time in nature.

Yeah, and people being born with sin in their hearts since infancy is even more common and we know God holds us accountable for our actions. Just because it is common or if people are "born that way" doesn't mean anything. I sympathize with homosexuals who become Christans. I really do. It means that they are pretty much forced with a life without marriage and singleness, but we believe there is more to life that what the world is offering so we can bear with it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:7-12;&version=31;
Lol I'm sure a lot of fundies would love to practice this.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 17:2-5 ;&version=31;
Seems like a way to keep the world afraid so they don't "think"

I already covered the detestable practice of worshiping demons. If the people wanted to do that, they should leave Israel.

Theres many others if I quoted all of them that would be a good part of the bible.

Please do.

 

[Aesir]

The Jews never took slaves from the cities they attacked. I looked through all of Joshua and Judges, books with lots of warfare, and couldn't find anything you described.

I remember reading it, I dunno I'll drop it for now.

Again, you assume that the Jews invaded a city and took slaves, but this was never the case. They only bought them and in that time it was common to sell yourself to get out of debt rather than getting thrown in jail for life.

Sex Slavery. Father selling her daughter that seems kind of evil don't you think?

Slaves were property, but you make it sound like God commanded slave owners to do horrible things to their slaves. This was never the case. Look into the New Testament for more verses about this. You were supoosed to look after their safety, provide them with clothing, food, shelter, yadda yadda. heck, sometimes they'd get wages, but that was really up to the master's generosity.

Yet there were no laws protecting their rights. THe fact that if a master beats his slave and dies 3 days later he isn't held accountable. really speaks volumes about biblical laws

Didn't you read what I said? Laws can never be perfect because human laws are under the constraints of a finite universe. This is something most people cant seem to understand about God, a perfect being who is outside third-dementional boundaries. It's like asking if God could microwave a burrito so hot even He Himself couldn't eat it. There were God-fearing judges who mediated all legal decisions. The Law was just a boundary for them to follow.

Lol where do you get the idea that "god" is outside a the 3rd dimension.

But lets humor that, if he's perfect how come he can't make a perfect law? Sure the imperfections of our world are not out of his grasp.

Um... yes it did. >_>
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:13;&version=31;

Other gods are demons, or "devils" if you prefer to call them that. Idols are little figurines people carve for themselves. They have no power.

Evidence? Do you have evidence that all gods aside from yours are merely demons?

Yeah, Allah is most probably a demon from my point of view. How else did the religion survive and grow so large? I dont doubt that there is some supernatural force behind it. Using this point of view, if I was somehow a Muslim I'd probably think the same way about Christianity. The cool thing about Islam and Christianity is that both were predicted way back during Abraham's lifetime.

How do you know Allah is a demon? maybe your god is a demon and Allah is the one true god? What makes your god the right one?

Alright, but I dont think I can convince you on the sex before marriage thing, but perhaps we can at least come to an understanding. Sex was meant for one male with one female for them to be exclusive with. It says in the Bible that with sex "two are made one in union" or something like that, and this union should never be broken as long as both members are alive. Adultery or divorce divides this union appart, and God hates these acts.

Tell me, do you think adultery is evil? If yes then ask yourself why; you could probably follow the logic back to sex before marriage.

Adultery is something I would not condone, not because it's sex without marriage but because someone who is already in another union breaks that union with another.

Adultery =/= Sex without marriage

Yeah, and people being born with sin in their hearts since infancy is even more common and we know God holds us accountable for our actions. Just because it is common or if people are "born that way" doesn't mean anything. I sympathize with homosexuals who become Christans. I really do. It means that they are pretty much forced with a life without marriage and singleness, but we believe there is more to life that what the world is offering so we can bear with it.

God sounds like a prick here, Yeah your body tells you you're attracted to someone of the same sex but if you do you're ****ED!

Seriously why did allow homosexuality to exist then?

 

[SuperBowser]

I already covered the detestable practice of worshiping demons. If the people wanted to do that, they should leave Israel.

sorry, but, umm, are you promoting the removal of people who do not worship your god from Israel? What happenned to freedom of religion?

 

[commonyoshi]

I remember reading it, I dunno I'll drop it for now.

No you dont.

Sex Slavery. Father selling her daughter that seems kind of evil don't you think?

No, it wasn't "sex slavery". You mean arranged marriages? I dont really agree with arranged marriages either in this day and time, but seeing as how arranged marriages in India have a 4% divorce rate...

Yet there were no laws protecting their rights. THe fact that if a master beats his slave and dies 3 days later he isn't held accountable. really speaks volumes about biblical laws

There are laws protecting them. If someone knocks out a slave's tooth or damages his eye then the slave is set free. Exodus 21:26-27. There are others, but I cant find them right now. I'll get back to you on this.

Lol where do you get the idea that "god" is outside a the 3rd dimension.

God is Spirit. Why on earth would the astral plane and the physical plane be the same? How would such a God do miracles? How would He be all-knowing and powerful? How does He redeem the dead? It's pretty obvious. >_>

But lets humor that, if he's perfect how come he can't make a perfect law? Sure the imperfections of our world are not out of his grasp.

I like how you phrased that. No, the imperfections of the world mean nothing to Him, but they mean something to us. I've said this three times already. God-fearing Judges who knew His will was the best system.

Evidence? Do you have evidence that all gods aside from yours are merely demons?
...
How do you know Allah is a demon? maybe your god is a demon and Allah is the one true god? What makes your god the right one?

Of course I dont have "evidence", and you know this. You're better than resorting to mocking comments like this. Next you'll be asking "if God is there, then what does He look like?".

You're asking why I believe God to be the God, and I will attempt to answer that. A lot of it is first-hand experience. Divine interventions, miracles, changes in people's lives, people's lives who haven't changed at all despite rough times, and numerous other things I've been able to see and "feel" (for lack of a better word). I dont really know how to describe God and Christianity, but it's definitely... good.

Some things are from the Bible from which I see as perfect. (not literally letter by letter perfect)

Then I see other religions and they just feel so, I dont know, man made. Christianity has a sense of unbelievability yet remains believable, and other religions just feel so bleh and unpowerful. For example, in Heaven we will eternally praise God forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. So it's kinda like church... but forever. [sarcasm]Yeah![/sarcasm] I really dont see a human coming up with that. Then take Islam's idea of the afterlife (from Wiki "Their life is one of bliss including: wearing costly robes, bracelets, perfumes; partaking in exquisite banquets, served in priceless vessels by immortal youths; reclining on couches inlaid with gold or precious stones. Other foods mentioned include meats, scented wine and clear drinks bringing neither drunkenness nor rousing quarrelling." No offense to Muslims, but I can just imagine someone, man or demon, imagining what their perfect conditions on earth would be and taking it to describe what heaven will be like.

Adultery is something I would not condone, not because it's sex without marriage but because someone who is already in another union breaks that union with another.

Adultery =/= Sex without marriage

Right, and in sex without marriage two people take light of such a perfect union and use it for pleasure. Then they leave each other and make unions with other people, then they leave those people and continue the cycle. By the time they really do get married then their union with their spouse is corrupt.

God sounds like a prick here, Yeah your body tells you you're attracted to someone of the same sex but if you do you're ****ED!

I could say the same about adultery. >_>

Seriously why did allow homosexuality to exist then?

I think it was a natural result from the fall of man/creation.

sorry, but, umm, are you promoting the removal of people who do not worship your god from Israel? What happenned to freedom of religion?

Why the deuce should God allow freedom of religion in Israel? He's God Almighty, the one and only God, the beginning and the End, the Lord of all. Why should He allow His people whom He chose to redeem in free grace, not because of their own righteousness but because of His, to worship demons who's missions were to take as many humans as they could with them to hell in defiance against God? The Israelites were God's chosen people in whom salvation for all people's would come. They needed to be perfect.

 

[Aesir]

No you dont.

It's not the exact verse I was looking for but here ya go.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers 31:7-12;&version=31;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 13:15-18 ;&version=31; lol

No, it wasn't "sex slavery". You mean arranged marriages? I dont really agree with arranged marriages either in this day and time, but seeing as how arranged marriages in India have a 4% divorce rate..

LOL wtf? No it wasn't arranged marriages wow.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus 21:7-11;&version=31; thats not an arranged marriage thats a sex slave lol..

There are laws protecting them. If someone knocks out a slave's tooth or damages his eye then the slave is set free. Exodus 21:26-27. There are others, but I cant find them right now. I'll get back to you on this.

Lol yet if I die 3 days later from the beating he'll get no punishment? that doesn't seem right.

God is Spirit. Why on earth would the astral plane and the physical plane be the same? How would such a God do miracles? How would He be all-knowing and powerful? How does He redeem the dead? It's pretty obvious. >_>

Pretty obvious that it makes no sense? yes. I've never once seen evidence that points to the astral plane existing or a spirit for that matter existing. Or is it magic? Is that the basis of this argument? It's magic.

I like how you phrased that. No, the imperfections of the world mean nothing to Him, but they mean something to us. I've said this three times already. God-fearing Judges who knew His will was the best system.

So a perfect being put his will in the hands of imperfect beings.

Of course I dont have "evidence", and you know this. You're better than resorting to mocking comments like this. Next you'll be asking "if God is there, then what does He look like?".

If you have no evidence then how do you know?

You're asking why I believe God to be the God, and I will attempt to answer that. A lot of it is first-hand experience. Divine interventions, miracles, changes in people's lives, people's lives who haven't changed at all despite rough times, and numerous other things I've been able to see and "feel" (for lack of a better word). I dont really know how to describe God and Christianity, but it's definitely... good.


Some things are from the Bible from which I see as perfect. (not literally letter by letter perfect)

Then I see other religions and they just feel so, I dont know, man made. Christianity has a sense of unbelievability yet remains believable, and other religions just feel so bleh and unpowerful. For example, in Heaven we will eternally praise God forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. So it's kinda like church... but forever. [sarcasm]Yeah![/sarcasm] I really dont see a human coming up with that. Then take Islam's idea of the afterlife (from Wiki "Their life is one of bliss including: wearing costly robes, bracelets, perfumes; partaking in exquisite banquets, served in priceless vessels by immortal youths; reclining on couches inlaid with gold or precious stones. Other foods mentioned include meats, scented wine and clear drinks bringing neither drunkenness nor rousing quarrelling." No offense to Muslims, but I can just imagine someone, man or demon, imagining what their perfect conditions on earth would be and taking it to describe what heaven will be like.

Right, and in sex without marriage two people take light of such a perfect union and use it for pleasure. Then they leave each other and make unions with other people, then they leave those people and continue the cycle. By the time they really do get married then their union with their spouse is corrupt.

I could say the same about adultery. >_>

I think it was a natural result from the fall of man/creation.

Why the deuce should God allow freedom of religion in Israel? He's God Almighty, the one and only God, the beginning and the End, the Lord of all. Why should He allow His people whom He chose to redeem in free grace, not because of their own righteousness but because of His, to worship demons who's missions were to take as many humans as they could with them to hell in defiance against God? The Israelites were God's chosen people in whom salvation for all people's would come. They needed to be perfect.

After reading all this I've decided to just stop lol, I mean its pretty obvious neither of our opinions will change, and this has gone on for almost a month now? Lol I frankly don't want to attack religion and it seems thats all I've been doing and I really don't want to.

Agree to disagree? >_>

Anyone else is free to pick up where I started but I really just don't want to bicker about it anymore since it's just turning into a bicker fest.

 

[darkshy]

I have a challenge. I would like someone to tell me something good that has come out of religion that couldn't have been there anyway. I have been been thinking about this for a while and I can't think of any reason to believe in any kind of god, other than for weak minded people to latch onto something so that they won't feel like their life is out of control.

There's something I think you should know before I reply. Why is it that people who do NOT believe in God or think that religion is useluess have to think that people who do are dumb? Yes there are extemists there always will be, but for someone to call me "weak minded" because of it. I find the **** insulting. Watch it.

To respond to your question about something good coming out of religion that I can answer easily. What I find religion to be is a basis at which people can stay moral and do the right thing because it's the right thing. Religion can premote better ideas to situations that pobably never would've been thought of. Take for instance Martin Luther King. He promoted nonviolence during the black movement, and he was a religious man. The connection? Look up some bible verses nonviolence is was something to normally abide by. Also what about crackheads, or other drug users who got clean and devoted themselves to God. Does that make them "weak minded" for entrusting themselves to a higher power?

I could go on if you would like.

 

[commonyoshi]

I dont have time now, but I'll finish the rest tommorrow.

Lol yet if I die 3 days later from the beating he'll get no punishment? that doesn't seem right.

I dont recall seeing this 3 day thing anywhere. If you hit your servant and he dies, the master will die as well.

Pretty obvious that it makes no sense? yes. I've never once seen evidence that points to the astral plane existing or a spirit for that matter existing. Or is it magic? Is that the basis of this argument? It's magic.

Have you ever read the book "Flatland"? It's an awfully boring book, it really is, but it describes perfectly what you're doing here. In a nutshell, beings in a 1-D universe, or in other words, points or dots, can never see or picture what a line would look like. For all the residents of a 1-D universe know, they are the universe and there is nothing outside them. The beings of the 2-D universe see this and think it is sad and think themselves superior because they can see more of themselves and the world around them. They are lines, squares, and circles. Yet these shapes are no better than the points in the 1-D plane because they do not know anything outside their own world, and it takes the intervention of a sphere, a 3-D being, to show them how wrong they are. These 2-D figures can not truly understand what the sphere is as they are limited to their perception capabilities, but they acknowledge that the sphere who is visiting them is capable of doing things they can not do and knowing things they do not know because the sphere is outside their world.

The point of the whole book is that we can never truely understand more than what we can see, and yet we can see signs of things greater than us which lead to our conclusion that there is something more. I've seen these things and believe me when I say it is impossible to describe fully what they are. You can call it miracles, magic, or whatever you fancy. I cant blame you for not believing seeing as how you haven't seen them for yourself, but this is why we're discussing all this, right.

 

[Aesir]

darkshv: MLK wasn't the other civil rights activist, the only reason he's the most famous is well he died for one and two he was a minister. He used the church to promote his protests.

There was a study during the civil rights movement in a nutshell it showed

People who were religious where less likely to take part in civil rights activities then someone who was non religious.

CommonYoshi: Again you're just hiding behind the "if we can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there!" argument. the fact that you're you using the string theory to try and back up your claims doesn't make me think "well maybe he's right". The string theory isn't even falsifiable (has yet to be tested.)

So what you really have is a hypothosis that theres other planes and god exists in one of them. Thus he isn't bound by our sense of logic.

IE hiding behind a shroud of mystery to make god seem likely.

I know the argument I used to be a Christian.

 

[darkshy]

Yo show me that study. Seriously.

 

[Aesir]

It's hard to find sociological studies on the internet, they're usually published in books.

Gary Marx (1967), looking at religiosity and militancy among blacks, found that high levels of religious involvement for blacks were associated with low levels of militancy on civil rights issues. His study also indicated that an other-worldly emphasis was negatively related to race protest.

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/Stratification.htm

twas found there. THis article basically talks about religion and inequality and their impact on each other.

 

[jaej]

God of Shadows, eh? lol. 'god only exists in the holes science can't yet explain'. or something like that. anyway, the point is that the burden of proof is on you religious guys. i digress....

i have a question though. i was on this forum fairly often about a year and a half ago, back when i was a christian, and i remember commonyoshi being one of the few people that agreed with me, so my question is for you: you seem like a fairly intelligent person, so do you believe in ID? do you take the bible literally like a fool, or do you at least understand that parts of it are metaphor?

as a former christian i really and truly don't understand how someone with a rational mind can believe that christian nonsense.

sorry if i offended. it wasn't my intention. i respect your right to your belief, but i don't respect your beliefs themselves.

ps, if anyone likes this stuff im a member of a forum where all discussions are ones like this.

http://www.agnosticforums.com

in case you're interested. i haven't been there in a while because there's a bunch of idiots there, but it used to be good.

 

[AltF4]

Adultery or divorce divides this union appart, and God hates these acts.

You know, I've always had an issue with the entire concept of god having human emotions. First off, emotions are caused by chemical imbalances in our brains, a purely physical process. If god is not physical, why would he have these emotions?

Second, it is a sign of fault, of imperfection. Hate is not a positive thing, it never is. Emotions imply a loss of control. I just can't picture an all perfect being getting so angry that two dudes are having sex that he thinks they ought to be killed.

It used to make sense on a story-level. Think of the Greek gods. Those gods were used to explain things like the weather and astronomical phenomenon that were beyond the current understanding of science. To those people, the world must have felt harsh and random, almost as if someone is controlling it all to mess with them. So the Greek gods are depicted as having human emotions, getting into fights, having faults, etc...

But these are not the qualities that a judeo-christian "perfect" god should have.

 

[SuperBowser]

Why the deuce should God allow freedom of religion in Israel? He's God Almighty, the one and only God, the beginning and the End, the Lord of all. Why should He allow His people whom He chose to redeem in free grace, not because of their own righteousness but because of His, to worship demons who's missions were to take as many humans as they could with them to hell in defiance against God? The Israelites were God's chosen people in whom salvation for all people's would come. They needed to be perfect.

see, this kind of crosses the line from being religious to borderline crazy. When groups of people begin to hold opinions like this, it only leads to one thing. Maybe you should think about the implications of banning other religions in a whole country. I seriously doubt it will lead to anything your God wanted. Or at least I hope so.

 

[commonyoshi]

CommonYoshi: Again you're just hiding behind the "if we can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there!" argument.

Actually, I'm saying I have seen it. I'm saying you haven't, no offense to you in any way.

So what you really have is a hypothosis that theres other planes and god exists in one of them. Thus he isn't bound by our sense of logic.

No, the other planes thing was a metaphor. I dont think comparing God to a sphere and humans as polygons explains exactly correct.
And you just said something that always puzzles me, however. Everyone I've ever argued against has rejected God because they, in some way, say humans are incapable of being on God's level of wisdom so therefore He must not exist. It's really something I've never been able to argue against since I cant convince people that they aren't/shouldn't be on par with a diety. They seem prideful to me for thinking that way, but I suppose they could argue I'm gullible for believing in something I cant see physically.

You know, I've always had an issue with the entire concept of god having human emotions. First off, emotions are caused by chemical imbalances in our brains, a purely physical process. If god is not physical, why would he have these emotions?

Hahaha, I'm trying to imagine a God without emotions. Would it be like some sort of computer system purging viruses here and there?

And no, I do think God has emotions, though they aren't exactly like ours. God "created humans in His own image" which, I guess, people could think of as a head, body, and limbs, but another explanation would be having free will, emotions, and reason which animals do not have. It does make sense for God to create his most beloved possession with attributes like Him. He just put those attributes into a brain.

Second, it is a sign of fault, of imperfection. Hate is not a positive thing, it never is. Emotions imply a loss of control. I just can't picture an all perfect being getting so angry that two dudes are having sex that he thinks they ought to be killed.

How is hate always bad? Does not everyone hate ****, murder, malicious lieing, and violence? If you dont feel anything against these actions...

I'm glad we've come to this point, however, as it was Jesus' whole message. God seeks repentence and forgiveness, not justice. There was a part in Jesus' ministry when an adulteress was dragged in front of him, and he was asked if she should be killed. This was a trap the Jews set up having to do with obeying the Laws of Leviticus, the Roman law, or something like that. Jesus, under Leviticus, would have had every right to tell the Jews to stone her, but he didn't and saved her life. The very first thing he said to the adulteress following that was to tell her, "Leave your life of sin."

So Jesus, I can't ever imagine, appoaved of her actions, yet she was saved through mercy.

see, this kind of crosses the line from being religious to borderline crazy. When groups of people begin to hold opinions like this, it only leads to one thing. Maybe you should think about the implications of banning other religions in a whole country. I seriously doubt it will lead to anything your God wanted. Or at least I hope so.

Do you even realize what you're saying? Just assume for a second that there was some sort of diety out there who created everything. Why should he allow the people whom he created to worship his own enemies? I understand humans wanting freedom of religion, but why should a diety accept that kind of insult?

Oh, and just so you get the record straight, Israel was God's chosen nation, set apart so tht through them they would bless the whole human race. The countries we have now are absolutely nothing, ruled entirely by people, so that's why we shouldn't ban people from worshiping whoever they want. You seem to think Leviticus holds true for all people. The morals behind them still apply, dont murder/steal/blah, but society has created their own government to function however they want. Heck, they can allow baby killing, and we wouldn't be able to stop them. We could preach to them to ask them to stop, but the decision is entirely up to them.

 

[SuperBowser]

If you want to preach about banning ''false'' religions in Israel go ahead. Just don't be surprised with the reaction you get. It's a disgusting notion and, frankly, if I don't follow your religion, I shouldn't have to give a **** whether or not you like what I believe.

 

[Aesir]

Then I'm confused, wheres god? if he's isn't on another plane of existence where can he be? I mean you claim you've seen it.

 

[commonyoshi]

If you want to preach about banning ''false'' religions in Israel go ahead. Just don't be surprised with the reaction you get. It's a disgusting notion and, frankly, if I don't follow your religion, I shouldn't have to give a **** whether or not you like what I believe.

Honestly, you're not even giving the notion that there is a diety a single possibility of being true, and that's why nothing is getting to you. NOTHING will get to you because you refuse to let it happen. You're holding on that absoluutely no religion is true, but people should have the right to chose their own.

I'll try to get this into context. What would happen if people started teaching incorrect math in all the schools in England? Wouldn't you ban them? This is exactly the same for the Israelites. God and demons, at that time, were not something you "believed in". They were part of their lives. God was the one true God. All other demons were false gods.

Then I'm confused, wheres god? if he's isn't on another plane of existence where can he be? I mean you claim you've seen it.

Perhaps I phrased my last post incorrectly. I meant to say God wasn't on any physical plane, but if you'd like to call heaven another plane then I guess that could work too. And God does not have a location as location would make Him physical.

I dont think I've "seen God" as much as I've felt Him. It's really hard to explain. How can I describe divine intervention? If I could, it wouldn't be divine, now would it? ^_^ I'll try though.

The first time God "spoke" to me, if you will:
It was more than happiness or excitement, but it was... elevating.
I knew in an instant that it was God, even though I had never really been religious or even thought about Him much.
It was more loving than I could ever describe.
It was powerful, convicting, and grand yet peaceful, forgiving, and personal.

I can barely classify it as a feeling, but there you go.
And I've never done drugs nor do I have some sort of mental illness.

 

[Aesir]

Perhaps I phrased my last post incorrectly. I meant to say God wasn't on any physical plane, but if you'd like to call heaven another plane then I guess that could work too. And God does not have a location as location would make Him physical.


I dont think I've "seen God" as much as I've felt Him. It's really hard to explain. How can I describe divine intervention? If I could, it wouldn't be divine, now would it? ^_^ I'll try though.

The first time God "spoke" to me, if you will:
It was more than happiness or excitement, but it was... elevating.
I knew in an instant that it was God, even though I had never really been religious or even thought about Him much.
It was more loving than I could ever describe.
It was powerful, convicting, and grand yet peaceful, forgiving, and personal.

I can barely classify it as a feeling, but there you go.
And I've never done drugs nor do I have some sort of mental illness.

So god is superstition, since there is no evidence for anything you've said. Again you're using the argument; "if I can't see it it doesn't mean it isn't there" Feelings can be deceiving you realize the very same thing you described is exactly same thing a Muslim describes? or a Hindu or a Pagan.

 

[commonyoshi]

I have no idea if what you say is actually real or not, but if it is, does that not indicate to those who have experienced them that there is something greater than ourselves out there? I already explained why I considered Christianity the only faith. We already discussed this, didn't we?

 

[Aesir]

Lol what are you saying? I'm saying since you offer no reasonable evidence or even a reasonable concept to how god can exist. (let alone the way you're discribing god he might as well not exist.) I've yet to see anything, it's like you created this invisible shroud of mystery and to explain things you just say the invisible man in the sky did it!

How is that any different from other religions?

 

[Pikaville]

What? Catholic Christians believe in God you know.

Yes I know.I was born and baptised a Catholic christian but I don't follow the teachings of the church anymore(I think it's b******t)I may not believe in God or heaven but I hope im proved wrong when I die.I think its called being agnostic.

Commonyoshi has said he's been talked to by God.Whether or not I believe him doesn't matter If he thinks or knows that God has talked to him,who are you to tell him otherwise.May be some are to against religion to even think a God could possibly exist.I would say these are closed minded people.I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.But that doesn't mean I think he cant exist(or that there is a possibility for him to exist)In other words I think he could exist,but I wont believe it till I see it.

 

[jaej]

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence" -- no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it -- is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

I came across this a few months ago and thought it was a neat analogy to theism.

 

[commonyoshi]

You're right when you say I dont have a clear concept of what God is, I dont pretend to know, nor do I even attempt to figure it out for myself. It's something too great for me to understand comepletely, and while you may see humanity's lack of understanding as a reason not to believe in God, I find it perfectly logical to find God just a tad unlogical and unseen.

Think about this. Any diety who can be wrapped in human logic is clearly a diety made up by human minds. Zeus is a great example of one of these. Assuming there is a diety out there, that diety must be logical, yet unlogical at the same time to logically be a real diety. Aesir, if you ever find a god who you can understand completely, I guarentee you it's a fake.

 

[shminkledorf]

You're right when you say I dont have a clear concept of what God is, I dont pretend to know, nor do I even attempt to figure it out for myself. It's something too great for me to understand comepletely, and while you may see humanity's lack of understanding as a reason not to believe in God, I find it perfectly logical to find God just a tad unlogical and unseen.

this sounds to me like saying you believe in god because you don't understand him, or the way that he works? The universe is something too great for me to understand completely, I don't follow that as a faith. What if you don't understand how the truly unviewable objects such as electrons, quarks, etc. They don't quite make logical sense, shouldn't we be following them religiously, too?

Think about this. Any diety who can be wrapped in human logic is clearly a diety made up by human minds.

Are you kidding me? Who wrote the **** bible? Jesus and his disciples were all humans, as was basically everyone else involved in the bible. How do you think the concept of Christianity came forth? Christianity has been a large religion for a relatively short time., actually If it hadn't been made up by human minds, then it would have existed forever. However, it hasn't, and we know that for a fact.

Zeus is a great example of one of these. Assuming there is a diety out there, that diety must be logical, yet unlogical at the same time to logically be a real diety. Aesir, if you ever find a god who you can understand completely, I guarentee you it's a fake.

I can't even imagine what to say to this. What if the deity he found actually, yknow, communicated with his followers instead of hiding back there in the shadows for 2000 years? People would have a pretty good understanding of the Christian god if he did something other than stay back saying "Brb, I'm testing ur guyz faiths LOL" then just left for a few thousand years.

 

[commonyoshi]

Woah... I remember you from Gamefaqs. Your signiture haunts me to this day.

this sounds to me like saying you believe in god because you don't understand him, or the way that he works? The universe is something too great for me to understand completely, I don't follow that as a faith. What if you don't understand how the truly unviewable objects such as electrons, quarks, etc. They don't quite make logical sense, shouldn't we be following them religiously, too?

I dont think you understand where I was coming from. There are things about Christianity that make sense like how God is loving, perfect, slow to anger, abounding in love, quick to forgive and some things that dont make sense like why He cares about piddly humans in the first place if He's God.

Are you kidding me? Who wrote the **** bible? Jesus and his disciples were all humans, as was basically everyone else involved in the bible. How do you think the concept of Christianity came forth? Christianity has been a large religion for a relatively short time., actually If it hadn't been made up by human minds, then it would have existed forever. However, it hasn't, and we know that for a fact.

Any Christian would tell you that Jesus was more than just a man, and his disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. They were much more than men.

Why would Christianity have lasted forever if Jesus didn't die until 2000 years ago?

I can't even imagine what to say to this. What if the deity he found actually, yknow, communicated with his followers instead of hiding back there in the shadows for 2000 years? People would have a pretty good understanding of the Christian god if he did something other than stay back saying "Brb, I'm testing ur guyz faiths LOL" then just left for a few thousand years.

Meh, there are lot of things I could say here. For example, God did reveal Himself to His Israelite people, and you know what? A lot of them rejected Him anyway because they liked serving gods who fulfilled their human desires. This happened again and again and again... for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Your point is squat because people suck. People will always reject God even if He does something like hover over the earth every Christmas Eve handing out presents to all the little Christian boys and girls all over the world.

 

[Warlock*G]

Religion is good for one thing above all else as far as I'm concerned : hope.

 

[Aesir]

Any Christian would tell you that Jesus was more than just a man, and his disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. They were much more than men.

Why would Christianity have lasted forever if Jesus didn't die until 2000 years ago?

There is no historical evidence that says Jesus ever existed. The gospels were written decades after the events of Jesus Christ. Other then that, there is no evidence and if a man was walking around performing miracles I bet you anything people would have remembered it.

So basically Jesus died, everyone forgot, and then the gospels.

 

[shminkledorf]

I dont think you understand where I was coming from. There are things about Christianity that make sense like how God is loving, perfect, slow to anger, abounding in love, quick to forgive and some things that dont make sense like why He cares about piddly humans in the first place if He's God.

god slow to anger? Despite the fact that the bible itself says he's a man of war? I'm pretty sure it isn't saying god is a brainless jellyfish that sort of floats there randomly killing and eating things. Now that I think about it...

Any Christian would tell you that Jesus was more than just a man, and his disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. They were much more than men.

Why would Christianity have lasted forever if Jesus didn't die until 2000 years ago?

People tend to fall back on this a lot. "Oh they were filled with the holy spirit". So? Don't people say god is in everyone? So what makes them any different? They were homies with Jesus?
what i meant by Christianity lasting forever was that if it was the case that god created everything, adam, eve, etc. The Christian faith would be much older than it is now. And well, it isn't.

Meh, there are lot of things I could say here. For example, God did reveal Himself to His Israelite people, and you know what? A lot of them rejected Him anyway because they liked serving gods who fulfilled their human desires.

Of course they do, the don't want to worship a petty god who claims that you aren't allowed to worship anyone but himself, they want a god that actually is willing to help them when they need help, instead of sending some obscure message. they think he's omniscient and omnipotent, so he would be able to just help people when needed, instead of abandoning those direly in need. Don't say he works in strange ways, because that's just ignorant.

people suck

Yeah, but not for this reason.

People will always reject God even if He does something like hover over the earth every Christmas Eve handing out presents to all the little Christian boys and girls all over the world.

Well of course, because if he did that he'd be contradicting the bible. Aren't all equal in the eyes of god? He would simply run around giving presents to everyone, as he's an incredibly forgiving person. despite this, why does denying his existence **** you to eternal hell?

Woah... I remember you from Gamefaqs. Your signiture haunts me to this day.

If that was directed at me, which sig was that? >_>

 

[SuperBowser]

Honestly, you're not even giving the notion that there is a diety a single possibility of being true, and that's why nothing is getting to you. NOTHING will get to you because you refuse to let it happen. You're holding on that absoluutely no religion is true, but people should have the right to chose their own.

I'll try to get this into context. What would happen if people started teaching incorrect math in all the schools in England? Wouldn't you ban them? This is exactly the same for the Israelites. God and demons, at that time, were not something you "believed in". They were part of their lives. God was the one true God. All other demons were false gods.

You are free to believe that all you want and I'm not stopping you. But you are expressing the desire to remove my choice because I must be too stupid to decide what religion I believe to be correct for myself. Don't you see the problem here? At least I'm open enough to allow other people to believe what they want, whether or not I agree with them.

Why should muslims in Israel (who happen to outnumber christians that reside there, not that it matters) be forced to convert or leave because your book doesn't like their presence. It's not a healthy stance to take and I'd daresay it's ''extremist''.

And no. Don't use maths as an example. That is false because maths is based on facts. Religion is not.

Here's why your opinion is dangerous: What happens when a Muslim inevitably says the same thing?

 

[jaej]

Your point is squat because people suck. People will always reject God even if He does something like hover over the earth every Christmas Eve handing out presents to all the little Christian boys and girls all over the world.

If god fed and healed all the starving children in africa and asia, and cured everyone with degenerate genetic diseases, I don't think many people would doubt his existence. I sure wouldn't. The thing is, he doesn't. He allows these things to happen, even though he allegedly has the power to stop these things in the blink of an eye. And don't give me that 'fallen mankind' bull****, because, according to christianity, where will all those children go after they starve to death? Straight to hell, to burn forever. Loving god my ***.

 

[commonyoshi]

There is no historical evidence that says Jesus ever existed. The gospels were written decades after the events of Jesus Christ. Other then that, there is no evidence and if a man was walking around performing miracles I bet you anything people would have remembered it.

So basically Jesus died, everyone forgot, and then the gospels.

I wrote a mini-essay on the reliability of the Bible once. Here:

god slow to anger? Despite the fact that the bible itself says he's a man of war? I'm pretty sure it isn't saying god is a brainless jellyfish that sort of floats there randomly killing and eating things. Now that I think about it...

No offense, but if you're going to bash the Bible you might want to read it first. >_>
Man of war? @_@

People tend to fall back on this a lot. "Oh they were filled with the holy spirit". So? Don't people say god is in everyone? So what makes them any different? They were homies with Jesus?
what i meant by Christianity lasting forever was that if it was the case that god created everything, adam, eve, etc. The Christian faith would be much older than it is now. And well, it isn't.

I dont think God is in everyone. God is omnipresent if that's what you mean. He can see everything.

Are you talking about Judiasm? Christianity and Judiasm have the same history with Abraham and the Chosen Land except the latter reject that Jesus was Messiah. Judiasm traces itself back to the beginning of time so I dont see how it could get any older. >_>

Of course they do, the don't want to worship a petty god who claims that you aren't allowed to worship anyone but himself, they want a god that actually is willing to help them when they need help, instead of sending some obscure message. they think he's omniscient and omnipotent, so he would be able to just help people when needed, instead of abandoning those direly in need. Don't say he works in strange ways, because that's just ignorant.

We're still talking about the Jews, right? No offense, but again, maybe you should actually read the whole Bible before making up assumptions.

No matter how I try to look at this, I just cant see any almighty diety allowing his people to worship other fake gods. I dont think that any diety would think "Oh, freedom of religion, everyone! Go ahead and worship Zeus. It's OKAY!"
God was willing to help them all the time. He brought them victory again and again and again and again... when foreign enemies attacked them. There wasn't anything left lacking. The only time He took away His blessings were when people started worshiping other gods. Heck, even after the Israelites failed Him He was always ready to redeem them. I really have no idea what you're talking about when you say that God didn't help His people. Maybe you're thinking of their capture which ultimately lead to their involvement with the Romans? That was how Jesus can into the world, and the Roman empire was the perfect setting to spread Christianity quickly. History cant deny that.

Well of course, because if he did that he'd be contradicting the bible. Aren't all equal in the eyes of god? He would simply run around giving presents to everyone, as he's an incredibly forgiving person.

Hardy har har. If I defeat you in one of your points you could at least accept it gracefully without turning it around on some point no one was discussing. ^_^ Equality with prsents?

despite this, why does denying his existence **** you to eternal hell?

God doesn't doom people for not believing in Him. If all you needed to be saved was believe in Him then Satan would be free. To be saved you need to accept Christ's death as atonement for your sin. Without it, you're still sinful and cant spend eternity with God.

If that was directed at me, which sig was that? >_>

I think it was a nude guy with a waterbottle over his crotch. That image is burned into my mind. It's the only reason I remember you.

You are free to believe that all you want and I'm not stopping you. But you are expressing the desire to remove my choice because I must be too stupid to decide what religion I believe to be correct for myself. Don't you see the problem here? At least I'm open enough to allow other people to believe what they want, whether or not I agree with them.

No, I as a human have no right telling people what to believe. However, if a diety tells you to listen to him, you better darn well do it. Have we not been connecting this whole time?

And no. Don't use maths as an example. That is false because maths is based on facts. Religion is not.

Gods and miracles were common during those times. They were practically considered fact. If you gave a child to Molech, you got good harvest. It was direct action and result. Things like that dont happen now, but they were true back in those days.

 

[Aesir]

All loving god?

If you speak ill against Jesus, you can be forgiven, God? you can also be forgiven. However Deny the holy spirit? you are eternally ****ed thats it, you are going to hell.

So he isn't all loving if theres one way to go to hell.

 

[shminkledorf]

No offense, but if you're going to bash the Bible you might want to read it first. >_>
Man of war? @_@

Don't have time to go through the rest right now. Exodus 15:3

 

[jaej]

It's more than likely he had every trace of Jesus destroyed.

You think it's more likely that the Romans destroyed every piece of secular (non-biblical) evidence about a man who could turn water into wine and raise himself from the dead than that he never existed?

bad grammar methinks ^^

 

[SuperBowser]

No, I as a human have no right telling people what to believe. However, if a diety tells you to listen to him, you better darn well do it. Have we not been connecting this whole time?

Gods and miracles were common during those times. They were practically considered fact. If you gave a child to Molech, you got good harvest. It was direct action and result. Things like that dont happen now, but they were true back in those days.

So who enforces this law? People? Then you can't absolve yourself of all responsibility. If I don't believe in your book, then why should I care what your ''God'' says. You have not answered this question because you can't. The only way for your point to be even somewhat reasonable is if everyone accepted Christianity as the one true religion. But guess what? That isn't the case and you need to account for that. Israel does not belong to one religion last time I checked. And most christians don't even hold your belief.

...I'm not sure how to reply to your second paragraph. Maths can be proven in and of itself to a student. ''Miracles'' can't. All we have are 2,000 year old accounts. I don't really want to discuss whether or not miracles are factual. It's just silly and you must realise the difference.

 

[commonyoshi]

If god fed and healed all the starving children in africa and asia, and cured everyone with degenerate genetic diseases, I don't think many people would doubt his existence. I sure wouldn't.

Yes you would.

The thing is, he doesn't. He allows these things to happen, even though he allegedly has the power to stop these things in the blink of an eye. And don't give me that 'fallen mankind' bull****, because, according to christianity, where will all those children go after they starve to death? Straight to hell, to burn forever. Loving god my ***.

What's the alternative? People grow up peachy and fine without hearing about Jesus, they die, and then they burn forever. I dont mean to sound harsh, but if Christianity is true, there is no difference for people who live whole lives and those who live a day. At least this way we're actually reaching out to people in Africa. You dont hear about people going into prosperous places like China to spread God's word. Being poor, while it does suck a lot, has enabled them to be blessed in the one area that matters most.

Though you're right. I do often times wish God would do things differently. However, I am mortal and limited. I dont mean to sound like a fool, but if I do then I have no shame in it. God's will be done.

And your post made me realize something. We Christians have absolutely no excuse for not having reached everyone on the planet already with the gospel. We suck.

 

[Aesir]

This essay argues that the Jews never would have been fooled by a bunch of people coming out of nowhere telling everyone that a man who had already died was the Messiah. The only conclusion is that people did know about Jesus during the time he was preaching all the way up until he died.

Conparing it to something we might experience now, imagine if the KKK was somehow able to erase all evidence of Martin Luther King Jr. Would that prove to anyone he never existed? Heck no! People saw him. People talked about him, and we have numerous testamonies to validate his existence, birth documents or no.

Lol but theres no record of him! LOL, you can't erease all records of figure on that level. It would be impossible unless you hired the MIB to go to everyone and erased their memory. It's physically impossible.

There would be records, if his existence there is no way the Jews would have destroyed all forms of evidence.

Do you realize the story of jesus is a plagerization of pagan doctrine? Many gods shared if not all most of Jesus divine characteristics.

Alright, now for your points. It doesn't matter if the gospels were written decades after Jesus' death. His disciples were too busy preaching to write books. Also, the lack of Roman evidence isn't darning evidence that Jesus never existed. Emperor Nero was a notorious Christian persecuter. It's more than likely he had every trace of Jesus destroyed. It wouldn't be the first time historical documents concerning a particular religion have been destroyed. I believe Hitler tried to get the Germans to burn the book of Ester.

So no. Jesus lived. People knw about him. Jesus died. Everyone knew about him. Jesus may/may not rise from the dead. People still know about him. People preach about him. The Christians start getting persecuted, and the rest is history.

Actually the only shred of evidence for jesus are the 4 gospels which are really copies of copies of copies of what we think was written the original scripts are lost.

 

[jaej]

The alternative? The alternative is god stops being a ******* and doesn't send people who have never heard the name Jesus to hell. Simple as that.

And how can you possibly say I would reject god if suddenly every genetic disease was cured and there were no more starving, dying children in Africa? no makey sense...

Though you're right. I do often times wish God would do things differently. However, I am mortal and limited. I dont mean to sound like a fool, but if I do then I have no shame in it. God's will be done.

You honestly believe this? You honestly believe your god is omniscient and omnipotent, and chooses to do nothing even though millions of his beloved children are burning for all eternity? That's not all-loving; that's malevolent. You believe there's some sort of greater good being worked toward, that it's all part of god's will? You believe that instead of doubting his existence, or if you're that intent on there being a god, at least his benevolence? Ignorance, pure and simple.

 

[commonyoshi]

You think it's more likely that the Romans destroyed every piece of secular (non-biblical) evidence about a man who could turn water into wine and raise himself from the dead than that he never existed?

Way not to read my mini-essay. -_-;

So who enforces this law? People? Then you can't absolve yourself of all responsibility. If I don't believe in your book, then why should I care what your ''God'' says. You have not answered this question because you can't. The only way for your point to be even somewhat reasonable is if everyone accepted Christianity as the one true religion. But guess what? That isn't the case and you need to account for that. Israel does not belong to one religion last time I checked. And most christians don't even hold your belief.

I already answered your question as to why I dont "enforce this law" anymore. Ancient Israel was God's special nation. All other nations that have come before it or after are nothing more than man made. Israel was God made.

I haven't answered what question, exactly?

And I have no idea what you mean when you argue that I cant assume Christianity is the one truth when that's exactly what I'm argueing. See, this whole time you've been denying the possibility of a diety of some form. How the deuce am I supposed to get through to you if you dont even consider it possible?

"People should have freedom of religion"
"Hi, I'm a diety. I made you. And no, you should follow me."
"I'm going to pretend you dont exist and pretend it was a human who said that. So my answer is no."
*diety*: ... >_>;