Read THIS before asking how to do something - Terms and Advanced Tech

[KoRoBeNiKi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibQtgdrU2r8&feature=player_profilepage

For the yoshi users...Lol

advanced techniques.

 

[firo]

Angled Ness recovery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x8AYnyGQhE

 

[Lawrencelot]

How do you do Fox's angled upB on keyboard? I heard someone say it's possible

PS: I mean less than 45 degrees of course

 

[Blue Yoshi]

You can't. You can only do 45 degrees.

You need to have your control stick angled at a certain angle for fox to go at that angle (I did not intentially put the word angle three times in that sentence lol). Keyboard only lets you tilt your control stick at 8 angles.

Either that or someone found a way to angle on keyboard.

 

[House]

You can angle the stick with the keyboard using Mupen64's TAS Input Plugin.

 

[TANK64]

wow, never thought of that. Guess you keyboarders can have it rough too, lol (It was on console).

 

[dch111]

I read through all of this thread, but couldn't find a consensus:

What exactly is the difference between yoshi's Parry and yoshi's Block Counter, aside from the fact that the Parry is done 2 frames before getting hit (and doesn't have the shield graphic) and the Block Counter is done 4 frames before getting hit (and has the shield graphic briefly)? Does one take less time, or any other special property?

(or, as one person suggested much earlier in this thread, are they actually the same thing but one done earlier, possibly implying you can also block 3 frames in?)

 

[SheerMadness]

I would just call it a parry. I wouldn't worry about the differences either.

If you wanna get technical I'd call it a powershield since ur shield does actually come out theres just little to no shield stun. But all that matters is that it acts almost the same way as a parry in a real match so who cares. Whenever that happens in my matches I just consider it a parry.

 

[dch111]

Ledge attack withdrawal

Don't know if anyone has consciously used this for anything, but the following attacks push the character back away from the ledge if done from the teetering animation (same goes for if the animation was canceled).

Ness Ftilt
The Gentleman
Mario Dtilt
Mario Utilt
Luigi Utilt
Jiggs Usmash

There were some other minor ones like Falcon's Usmash, but I didn't count them since you still ended up partly exposed over the edge. Found these while working on ledge canceling.

 

[DMoogle]

Don't know if anyone has consciously used this for anything, but the following attacks push the character back away from the ledge if done from the teetering animation (same goes for if the animation was canceled).

What do you mean by teetering and canceled animations?

 

[Blue Yoshi]

If I understand right, you're talking about when you're standing on the ledge doing the "OMG I'm about to walk off the edge" animation (where you're facing the ledge and as far to the ledge as you can be). At this point, any attack (or shield, or grab) will make you return to your standing normally animation.

 

[dch111]

Yes, it was called "teetering animation" in the first page guide (under taunt canceling), so I assumed that was what everyone called it.

So to rephrase it better, from that close to the edge, doing any of the attacks I mentioned will cause your character to withdraw farther into the stage (other attacks keep them in the same position), maybe marginally useful for mindgames near the edge, or baiting. On rare occasion in team battles this could allow you to get in an attack on one opponent near the edge while dodging the other. Probably more like a "good to know" than anything else.

 

[bphodges]

New poster. Long time console player, just found online play and loving it. This has shined a whole new light on some techniques in Smash. I play with a group of about 20 friends on a daily basis, and we got our own technique going, so it'll be nice to bring some new techniques I've found on here. Now, I just gotta perfect them before I head back to school next semester.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

hey, its nice to have u here bphodges. yeah, ive been a console player since smash came out (with some lengthy breaks in between). but i too recently discovered this forum and have gotten alot better because of it. you'll learn alot in the first few months, and you'll start seeing noticeable results as well. what part of the country are u in?

 

[bphodges]

hey, its nice to have u here bphodges. yeah, ive been a console player since smash came out (with some lengthy breaks in between). but i too recently discovered this forum and have gotten alot better because of it. you'll learn alot in the first few months, and you'll start seeing noticeable results as well. what part of the country are u in?

I'm in Chattanooga, TN as home, but Tuscaloosa, AL for school at the University of Alabama.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

a little bit far away, but if i ever make it out to that part of the country, ill hit u up for some games

 

[bphodges]

a little bit far away, but if i ever make it out to that part of the country, ill hit u up for some games

Sounds good. Always up for a Smash game wherever I go.

 

[Stormcrow2]

We should add a term to this for ness's 2nd "horizontal" jump...

For those of you who don't know what this is, it's when you do your first jump with ness, and hold forward as you go up or at the peak of the jump (you can just hold it until then), and then right as you start to go back down you do a hard back (opposite direction that you're facing) on the stick right before you press jump for a 2nd jump. If done correctly, you can actually displace a pretty substantial amount of ground with it... that's why I'd call it a horizontal jump. Maybe horizontal back jump? HBJ? And again this is Ness only of course. There's something weird about the way he flips when he jumps that makes this work like it does. It's kinda like ness would look when fastfalling, only going horizontally backwards instead of vertically down. HBJ dairs and HBJ uairs are very good attacks/combo starters. Any advanced ness players probably already know of this technique. I just think it would be cool to assign a term for it. Like I said, horizontal back jump, or horizontal second jump or something.

EDIT: I forgot to add that you must attack when doing this back motion or it won't work. I guess the best way to explain it is that it's a DJC air attack, but with the 2nd jump/flip motion still somewhat part of it... it's interesting how it works. It can be done with dair, uair, bair, and nair, but nair is harder because you have to do that strong back direction on the stick. And also, when you tap jump the second time, that's when you do the input for the a attack (just like if you were djc attacking on the ground) - immediately after the direction input.

 

[dch111]

I believe it was called Ness's extended horizontal DJC (or just extended DJC) some time in the past. But it's such a rarely discussed technique that there hasn't been any "official" term for it yet. Not that this list is going to be updated anytime soon lol.

 

[ballin4life]

That's just a normal property of DJC. It works a little bit with ness's forward jump too.

Also it works well with Yoshi's jump.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

What they're talking about is double jumping backwards, then imputting an attack, thus making Ness move quickly backwards.

This is actually quite useful with Up-air. Might even be his best approach lol

 

[ballin4life]

It works going forward too, just not nearly as much.

And it definitely works for Yoshi.

 

[asianaussie]

Edit: My bad, not reading carefully enough >_>

 

[ballin4life]

Do you mean fair? Yoshi doesn't have a backwards jump so in order to do this with yoshi you have to move forward

 

[rpotts]

sounds like cheeseball is just referring to normal djc bair, just moving horizontally during the downwards momentum. Not as significant as the horizontal djc thing.

EDIT I can't beleive no one has mention dair with ness, with the horizontal djc is techchases so hard. ESPECIALLy on platforms

 

[Stormcrow2]

It works going forward too, just not nearly as much.

And it definitely works for Yoshi.

This is specifically for backwards only. If you do it forwards, that's just normal djc, and you can only input a little direction with it. And this can't be done with yoshi. It just seems that way because yoshi has a very big second jump. Yoshi can move forward quite a bit with djc second jump, but it's not as fast as the horizontal backward movement you can get with ness if you time it right. With yoshi it's just basic djc, with the benefit of having a really big second jump. There's something weird about the way ness flips when he jumps that makes this work. Ness can look like he's fastfalling with dair and uair mainly, only horizontally back instead of down.

 

[ballin4life]

It's all the same. It's just attacking during the portion of the jump that has maximum horizontal velocity. Ness simply has a moment in his backwards jump where he is moving backwards pretty fast. It's not any different just because ness happens to go a bit farther backwards than Yoshi or ness forwards.

 

[Stormcrow2]

I just think should be considered a specific technique because it does make ness go pretty far horizontally (and quickly), which is very useful in high level play. It looks nothing like what ness or yoshi can do with a forward 2nd jump; it's basically waiting until the right time so that the speed of ness's body flip for the second jump is captured and used, but without ness going up any higher. And the speed of the movement is very fast if you time it right. It is very different than a normal DJC. It just works because you can transfer the speed from the flip of the jump if you smash backwards on the stick at the right time.

I'll refer to it as horizontal djc I think. Or maybe just extended DJC, like dch111 stated earlier, that sounds pretty good too. Why not give it a name as a character specific technique when others exist? Like yoshi's parry, for example. Any upper level serious ssb 64 players who use ness either already know and use this, or would probably figure it out in practice. It's very useful IMO because it gives ness very fast horizontal movement. Great for starting combos and such.

 

[rpotts]

It is very different than a normal DJC.

it's just a property of djc, there is no "normal DJC" Using djc to quickly fall is just one way to use it, it's just how djc works when used that way. Call it whatever you like but it's the same thing, just the momentum captured is more horizontal than downwards.

 

[Stormcrow2]

It's not really a "property" of djc though since it's specific to ness only (even though yes i know there's only 1 other djc character) and a certain way of jumping with him, but it's utilizing the flip that ness's body does at the start of the second jump - it replaces the later part of the "flip" motion of the jump with an attack, while still having the speed of the last part of the flip, that would normally make ness rise faster to his peak of the second jump. This is done by doing the djc when ness's body is about half to 3/4 done with the flip, and right after smashing the stick to a hard backwards direction (or "swinging" the stick to that position quickly). You gain the most ground if you are holding the stick forward for the first jump, then right before hitting the button for the second jump, you smash the stick from the forward position to the backwards position (again, OR you can swing the stick around to it such as a slide DI down motion). It's a very specific way of using the djc; that's why I think it should have its own term. The way you and ballin were commenting makes it sound like you either have never done it with ness, or don't understand the explanation I gave. It gives ness a way to approach very fast and unexpectedly to the backside, making it a useful technique. The ground you can cover with this technique horizontally is very good and nothing like using a normal horizontally directed jump. It's the smashing of the stick backwards and timing that is important. I can cover about half of the dreamland stage with the horizontal move of this technique from where the second jump starts to where ness lands. The momentum you say is captured more horizontally, but only if you time it exactly this way with the way ness flips. If you don't do it that way (such as jumping again for a second jump and not waiting for the flip motion to even start before you attack), there's no more momentum for any direction than other directions. This technique is specifically for utilizing the flip of ness's second jump, and using it to gain a lot of horizontal gound. Basically, if you jump twice at any height and attack as soon as you do the second jump, you can't do this technique. This is what most people think of when they hear djc. Jumping twice low to the ground and doing uair or dair.

If ness's "flipping" motion of the 2nd jump wasnt transferred with a backwards smashing of the stick and an attack, this couldn't be done. That's just how it is, for some reason. The creators of the game were probably not intending for players as ness to do this, that's just the way it is and that some people have figured it out. That's why ssb 64 is fun. There are so many different things you can do with the different characters. Yoshi's "parry" probably wasn't intentional either, but it works and it's cool. That's why ness's horizontally extended djc in my opinion is a character specific technique; like Blue Yoshi said, it's actually a very useful approach for ness. I'm pretty sure this technique with ness is the fastest that any character can horizontally move in the air. But I play the djc characters A LOT, and ness much more than yoshi so maybe that makes my opinion stronger.

 

[Fireblaster]

It's not really a "property" of djc

Ness's double jump follows a very specific sequence of varying accelerations on the x and y axis such that it makes him spin in a half circle. Attacking during Ness's double jump "stops" this sequence and puts Ness back into the hands of the game's physics. This is a property of Ness's double jump. His double jump has 0 acceleration both vertically and horizontally at the very beginning, allowing players to DJC in place by doing jump, double jump, attack in rapid succession. Somewhere in his double jump ness does a front flip and during this time he has basically complete horizontal acceleration. Attacking during this time "stops" the sequence so Ness keeps going with the acceleration until the game slows him down. It is using the same property as "normal" DJC's.

tl;dr - It's still DJC, end of story. Don't turn this into one of those situations like in brawl where they tried to attach a name to everything (Someone on the brawl board once tried to give their own name to an "advanced technique" , which was turning around, jumping, and bairing)

 

[rpotts]

Stormcrow- I (and ballin) know EXACTLY what you are talking about, seriously... It's not a specific technique as much as it's just ONE way to utilize Ness's DJC... Your long winded explanation was totally unnecessary. If you gave this it's own name then ness' motionless DJC as well as falling DJC would require their own names as well, leading to over-classification, imo

It's not specific to ness either, yoshi can too, it's just not as noticeable since he doesn't have as much horizontal momentum as ness does during the beginning of his DJC.

Yoshi has several uses for his DJC too, like a quick ff, horizontally, or like a small vertical followed by normal falling, bottom line is they are all DJC and don't need to be individually classified.

I know how to do the horizontal DJC, it is cool and does have many uses in techchasing and comboing.

Don't take people not agreeing with you as ignorance, we are all (mostly) very educated in this game.

 

[Stormcrow2]

Thanks for the input Fire.. makes good sense.

rpotts: I guess I just didn't think you were getting what I was trying to say in saying that yoshi can do it also, because I was specifically talking about ness's flipping motion of the second jump, like Fire posted. I realize I just rambled on about it for no reason (maybe it helped someone... great if so) and that both characters are fully capable of good approaches with their djc attacks. I was just trying to say that ness has an extra added capability of djc that yoshi doesn't really have, like Fire explained above.

rpotts: You probably know more about yoshi than I do. I know yoshi is djc too, but yoshi doesn't flip or do anything weird in starting the second jump to my knowledge. Are you saying that yoshi is capable of the same concept, just not as extreme as ness's horizontal one? If so then that's my bad, sorry. But like Fire said, ness's flip with the acceleration to each axis is what makes the horizontal technique work. Does this same thing apply to yoshi when starting the second jump? I know you can always input directions to some degree, but yoshi doesn't flip or anything so I don't know where any added acceleration would come from.

I believe that you know how to do it with ness. I just wanted to make it more clear that my point was to show that the flip aspect of the djc is specific to ness, and why it only works backwards the way it does, and Fire gave a better, quicker explanation of that. Thanks Fire. rpotts: I understand that you, as well as most people here are very experienced smash players and understand the game very thoroughly. Heck, we're all nerdy enough to be talking about stuff like this on a forum for a game that came out over 10 years ago, we know way too much about a single video game But really, it's cool that we can talk in depth about a game we all love so much, and I respect your opinions or any disagreements. Makes it more fun and interesting, and I always learn new things. I still have fun playing competitively online, even when I get my butt handed to me.

Srsly. ssb 64 rawks.
-Storm

 

[rpotts]

Well i wouldn't call myself a VERY experienced smash player, but I do frequent the boards and know my **** (usually).

But just to point it out, the flip that ness does doesn't actually make the momentum, it's simply the way it was programmed, the animation is irrelevant. (i think) WAIT: upon reading fireblaster's post more carefully I realize it may be more tied to the animation than I originally thought, dunno

just to be clear I'm not trying to be disrespectful or start something as dum as a flame war over this (lol) and I do respect your opinions as well as everyone else's (other than novakane's)

And, as ballin said Yoshi can perform is with fair as well, he just doesn't have AS much horizontal momentum. His momentum comes from his double jump moving downwards then starting to go up, right in between, if you DJC the horizontal momentum is captured allowing for sideways nairs and fairs, although it clearly isn't as noticeable as ness's.

We should play sometime, I'll hopefully get some time to be on Galaxy tomorrow midday.

Good discussion

And yes, ssb64 rox.

 

[Fireblaster]

The flip is simply an animation. The only thing that matters is that Ness's double jump was simply programmed to have only horizontal acceleration during a point in the flip which can be taken advantage of to go really far horizontally (think like the tangent on the bottom part of a circle).

 

[Stormcrow2]

Yeah, we'll have to play some time. I might be on a little bit this afternoon between classes, but I'm usually on at night when I can get on.

And yea that's a pretty good way to put it Fire. The acceleration must be programmed most at the bottom of the circular motion, where the tangent line is parallel to the ground, thus being able to capture that motion backwards horizontally.

 

[dch111]

Since Wenbobular has not been interested in updating the list, I figured I would take the liberty of uploading an updated list of my own, based on an old list I had compiled to share with my friends.

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...DgtMzk5Yy00M2M3LTlmMTEtZjJlOWM2MzIwNDRh&hl=en

There are probably errors/omissions and other things people may not like about it, but I felt something should be available for the sake of
1. Players learning the game beyond Wenbobular's short list of techniques, especially since it is really tedious to search through the archives for past information on techniques that aren't regularly mentioned on the front page, let alone in an organized fashion.
2. Reducing the impression of 64 being considerably less complex than Melee which is generally exaggerated in many people's minds, reinforced by the sparseness of the current list compared to the other games'.
3. People who claim to have discovered new techniques "not mentioned here", get told that this list is outdated, and then claim such a response is a strategy to steal techniques. Absolute rubbish. Hopefully this more comprehensive compilation can be a useful offhand reference to clear things up.

 

[asianaussie]

Wow. Eight thumbs up.

Linked.

 

[ciaza]

Much praise to you Dch, great job!

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Is it fine if I upload, obviously to your credit, that document to smash wiki>?