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Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

Megadoomer

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I feel like this one's going to be divisive.

Geno

Chance: 50% - on one hand, Square-Enix has both of their flagship franchises in Smash, and Geno's had fairly consistent fan demand for about twenty years (it dipped a bit for the base game of Smash 4). On the other hand, there's a lot of competition within Square-Enix - Nier Automata, Tomb Raider, Chrono Trigger... We've seen fan demand result in a character getting in over more logical choices (Banjo and Kazooie getting into Smash over Master Chief or Steve from Minecraft), or getting in when it was thought to be near-impossible (Ridley), but I'm not sure if lightning's going to strike twice here.

Want: 100% - I've wanted him in Smash since Brawl, at the very least, and I'm still passionate enough about the character to have written an entire moveset for him. Super Mario RPG was one of the first games that I played, which likely helps with why I've supported the character for so long.

Sora

Chance: abstain. I don't know enough about the potential legal issues to realistically comment on his chances. (I know that, going by the copyright info at the start of Kingdom Hearts games, he's owned by Disney, but apparently they run it by the people at Square-Enix before using the character? I've seen all sorts of conflicting things, and it makes it hard for me to try and realistically figure out how likely he is)

Want: 75% - I've only played Kingdom Hearts 1 and Chain of Memories, but I can see why people want him in Smash. (I have the collections on PS3 and Dream Drop Distance on the 3DS, but I haven't sat down to play KH2 or Birth By Sleep yet) He's from a series that's already about crossovers, so he seems like a natural fit, and he has a ton of abilities thanks to the Keyblade and the various types of magic that he can use. (and possibly other abilities that he gets in later games? I have no idea how his playstyle changes as the series goes on aside from summoning theme park rides)

I feel like the want score would likely go up as I play more Kingdom Hearts games, though as of now, I feel like he'd be missing a lot (music, spirits, potential stages) if they had to strip out the elements from Disney movies/cartoons. Then again, if I played KH2 and found out what he could do on his own in later games, that could change - I have no idea.
 
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Perkilator

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Abstain on Geno, because I'm not fighting THIS war. **** no.

Anyways, here's what I said about Sora in the past:

MY BOY

Chance: 50%
Sora’s stuck in the Realm Between in terms of chances. On one hand, he is owned by Disney, a company very protective of their IP’s. On the other hand, that doesn’t 100% stop him from getting in. Here’s some proof:

He might not be FP5, per se, but I’m confident he’ll at least be future DLC.

Want: 100%
YES. YES. YES. Kingdom Hearts is one of my favorite franchises EVER. I’ve been wanting Sora in Smash ever since early 2017, when I was well a fan of the series. The KH YouTuber HMK has organized everything I could ever want if Sora ever got in Smash:


Well, that not FP5 part certainly aged well. But hey, each battle is a chance to grow.

Raymun: 50%
Travis: 40%


Noms:
Xion as Sora's Echo x2
Sakura Shinguji ×3
 
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DanganZilla5

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Legend of the Seven Highly Requested Genos
I really wanted a joke for Geno and that was the first thing that came to my mind, so yeah, on with the war.

Chance: 50%

I've supported Geno pretty much since I've started on here in SmashBoards and will continue to do so. Geno is one of the "impossible" characters alongside K. Rool, Ridley and Banjo, and all 3 of them got in. This game has focused a lot on fan favorite characters and Geno's chances are higher than ever. He has been highly requested for a very long time now, Sakurai wanted to include him in the past, and he got a honorable mention in Smash 4 via a Mii costume. It really feels like this is his time. Adding onto this is the fact that his Mii costume hasn't returned which to me is suspicious........

.....until Heihachi, a fellow Smash 4 Mii costume who is requested, a popular character, and arguably the mascot of his series, came back in Ultimate as a Mii costume once again. Truth be told, I would have given Geno a 60% but I have a feeling this could be a repeat of the base roster where they wait until the last nanosecond to deconfirm fan favorite characters. Honestly this has me shaking in my boots, same for Lloyd. But either way, Geno is almost guaranteed to get something, a Mii costume or playable status.

Another thing to discuss is competition. Geno is a special case where he competes against Mario and Square Enix characters. The big thing in Geno's favor is legacy. Not in the sense that is he is a big mascot for his time period like with Banjo, but his long-term presence in the Smash community. We saw with Banjo that he got in before Steve, who would have probably made a lot more because Minecraft. This is a reminder that bigger franchises and characters don't always get in first and I don't think I have to remind you all of Sakurai's statement saying fun moveset > recognizably. And Geno does have really good moveset potential. While it's true that Waluigi does have huge fan demand, Sakurai has shown more interest in Geno and while I think assist trophies can be upgraded, it's not a guarantee. As for Square Enix characters, I won't bother to get into the nitty gritty but several of their other characters have obstacles as well despite being more popular and iconic. While Geno's dormancy is definitely a hit towards his chances, I think that, based on everything me and many other people have presented, his lack of appearances isn't nearly a death sentence.

So whether or not Geno gets in depends on Nintendo and Square Enix and if they are accepting of it. We know Sakurai would want it and he clearly has some say in the selection. It's just a matter of if he can convince Nintendo and Square Enix.

Want: 80%

His legacy in the Smash community alone makes me want him in Smash. He is a piece of a bygone era, and a representative of the Mario RPG games. The more time I spent with the Genobros, the more I understood the appeal of the star hero. He is definitely my number one choice when it comes to Mario characters (yes, even more so than Waluigi). He has cool moveset potential, a distinct design, and a trailer with him hugging or high fiving Mario would be so heart warming. It's time for him to make a return and the fans deserve it for being very persistent and never giving up, despite all the naysayers they've encountered. I wish I had more to say but I think I've already said enough. Just put him in Smash already.

________________

Simple and clean is the way you make me feel tonight.......

Chance: 50%

If Geno doesn't make it then Sora is surely Square Enix's top candidate. I've made some big posts for him before but to sum it up, he has almost everything going for him. Highly requested in both East and West, comes from a highly successful and iconic series with Nintendo history, wide range of magic and abilities to make for a unique moveset, and on top of this all, a Kingdom Hearts game is coming to the Switch. A spinoff sure, but it could be a sign for things to come.

Also there was an interview a couple years ago with HMK where Disney Japan VP himself said that he supports Sora in Smash. The link also provides other points toward Sora's inclusion. Nintendo and Disney are no strangers at all, with Disney even bringing the Aladdin and Lion King games to Switch so they are friendly with each other. So to all the people who say that Sora can't happen because "Disney" you are wrong. Disney would listen to Nintendo and Sakurai and their top employees are open to the idea!

And yes, I do think Sora could work without the Disney content. The characters and locations that were created for Kingdom Hearts are colorful and full of personality. So it's up to Sakurai if he wants to deal with the high fees and not being able to include half of what makes up Kingdom Hearts.

Want: 75%

Kingdom Hearts deserves to be in Smash. Sora is a charming character brimming with moveset potential and there are many beautiful locations they could choose. I personally don't have much history with the series but man I would still be hyped to see it get some kind of content. Especially if it's simple and clean.


Predictions:
Rayman and Travis - 35% each

Noms: Ezio x5
 

Mushroomguy12

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Geno

Chance: 50%

I could honestly see this going either way, Square Enix already has some of their most important characters in the game, so legally there should be little restraints. There's also the immense fan demand, which is pretty much his biggest strength in contrast to his relevancy.

Want: 90%

You know what, I'm an enormous fan of the early Mario RPGS. Super Mario RPG, the first 3 Paper Marios, and the first four Mario and Luigi games. It broke my heart to see Kensuke Tanabe discuss how no more original characters are allowed to be made that touch on the Mario universe. Geno is pretty much the biggest star of that era, the symbol of when Mario RPGs were allowed to express wholesale creativity rather than the bland mush of NSMB generic Toads and Goombas that they are today expressed in the last several games. I would be fine with Geno as a symbolic victory for that.

Sora

Chance: 50%

Sora is a video game character at heart, and I don't believe for a second that Disney is that big an obstacle. Kingdom Hearts is one of Square's biggest franchises not yet in Smash along with Tomb Raider, so yeah, I think he's perfectly viable for getting in.

Want: 100%

Kingdom Hearts is one of my favorite series of all time, and I have been lucky enough to be able to play the entire series through PS4 collections. Sora himself is a great character with great moveset potential and the music of the series is some of the greatest among video games in general. The sheer content that could be brought with a proper FP is enough to make him one of my most wanted characters of all time.
 
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Phoenix Douchebag

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Ooooh boy, here we go.

I Serve.....a higher authority.


Chance: 50%

While im not confident in putting Geno above this chance, this is still pretty damn ****ing high in my book. This easily could go either way. Why?

Geno is a unique case, and i do mean, unique case. There's no other character like him. In Paper, this sounds like a laugable position to be in. A one shot character from a Rpg Spin-Off whose main genre is Platformer, and is owned by a third party company outside of Nintendo's control. Why him out of all Mario characters? Waluigi has appeared in almost Every Spin Off game and has been an Assist Since Brawl and is probably one of the more requested characters in Smash nowadays, Paper Mario represents his own subseries and has a complete identity of his own, and Toad is one of the most iconic gaming characters in general. Why him?

Reason 1: Sakurai's own preference.


I firmly believe this is a thing, but why would i believe it would affect Geno? In 2016 we found out Sakurai actually considered for Brawl, albeit only shortly and never seriously went for it, let alone made it to the planning stage.


"What led you to decide to make a Geno costume after all this time?

Sakurai: To tell the truth, it’s because I wanted Geno to be a playable character. He has a gun for a hand, and I think he fits in really well with Smash. During Brawl, I thought it would be great if I could add him, but in the end it didn’t become a reality.

—Because of that, you added him as a Mii Costume this time?

Sakurai: That’s right. He’s very popular. When talking about older characters, Geno always gets a lot of requests. He didn’t appear as a fighter, but I was able to achieve something kind of close to that as a Mii Costume."
Usually the story would end there, but one has to realize, Geno is heavily associated with Smash DESPITE the fact that before Smash 4's Mii Costume he was nowhere to be found. Most people that were on the Brawl days can attest to Geno, while not the most wanted one, was at least heavily mentioned those days (which i don't quite understand why exactly it was so big, Mario RPG wouldn't be released on the WII VC until AFTER the release of Brawl)

In Smash 4 as i mentioend his support was dwindling, he could have suffered the same fate as other Smash Character "bandwagons" as Zoroark, but as i mentioned above the whole Sakurai considered Geno for Brawl and Mii Costume, which is absolutely ****ing bonkers when you think about it. You got Square Enix and make a deal for Cloud in Smash, and out of all the characters you could chose for a Mii Costume to go alongside it are a Chocobo which is expected and.......a one shot character from a 1996 spin off?


That, to me shows that Sakurai has a soft spot for the guy, and while that doesn't make him guarantee, it shows potential that in the right circumstances he might get a chance. I do believe Geno did well enough on the Ballot, hence his Mii Costume appereance, and seeing how the other Mii Costumes that got into playable status were K.Rool (another fellow character who was really popular among hardocre Smash circles) Isabelle (a character who was really popular among casual circles) and Chrom (a mixture of both, although this was when FE wasn't oversatured and had like........2 characters)

Sakurai likes something? He puts it in the game. Sakurai likes SNK? There you go, Terry. Sakurai likes Castlevania? There you go, Simon and Richter. Etc. (for this same reason, i also see Rex happening) No matter if it takes a long time for it to happen, Sakurai can get his way.


2-Mii Costume Missing.


Yeah that's another thing i forgot to mention, his Mii Costume is missing. I said in Porky's day that absence of something does not mean it will come later. Heihachi was considered by Sakurai and still came back a costume in Ultimate. BUT, Sakurai mentioned Heihachi beign hard to work for a moveset. That's one thing Geno has at his advantage is that when he was mentioned that Geno would be an easy character to integrate. If Sakurai had him in mind this long ago and had the chance to at least give him a Nod in Smash 4, i could see him making it now. Also i do believe we would have seen the Geno Mii Costume by now. Maybe not Hero, but seeing how Sans was Part of Banjo's pack of all places i don't see why Geno has to come exclusively to a Square related character. Could have been Byleth or Min-Min if they wanted to.

Hell, even Ridley, despite having a far bigger resume than Geno, had to wait a long ass time because Sakurai dind't just cared enough to make a moveset out of him. Too Big and **** you know?. Geno's problem do not rely on Sakurai's lack of interest but instead legal issues. If Geno dind's suffered from Legal Issues we could have seen him in Smash by now.

We also know Spirits don't cecomfirm thanks to Min-Min's reveal, so no NPC role is stopping him as of now.


3-He has become the manifestation of the desires of the hardcore Smash community.


How many of you know Geno as "The guy people really wanted in Brawl"? i certaintly knew him that way. It's true that some characters like Isaac and Krystal were more popular and requested in the Brawl days than him, but his popularity has cemented him as one of the characters people want but never seem to happen, like K.Rool and Ridley. Is it revisonism history? To an extent yes, Geno actually is more talked about Now than he was in the Smash 4 days when his fanbase decimated (and maybe even the Brawl days too) but because so many other characters have made it in since the Brawl days, he comes across as this Super Requested character that never made it yet, mostly because the whole relevance thing was never a issue for him (Isaac and Krystal relied on relevance of their series to get in, and didn't work and their fanbases slowly dwindled) his fanbase, whatever be the reason has lasted a long time. I mean yeah the Interview about Sakurai revied interest in him, but it's hella likely that Geno's fanbase was still big, just silent.

Some people have mentioned Nintendo choosing the characters and that somehow makes him impossible now. While it could be an issue, i get reminded of the whole Banjo situation. Banjo was a character that a lot of people saw unlikely. He was dead for a decade and had to compete against Steve, the main guy from the best selling game on the planet. How would he stand a chance?

A tweet. A ****ing tweet. That caused a chain reaction in which everybody suddently was talking about Banjo in Smash. While it was too late for it to affect Smash 4, it certaintly affected Ultimate's DLC choices. If that burst of support could affect a Smash roster, then i could see Geno doing something similar. This is a character who is heavily associated with Smash as a whole, unlike Banjo, Geno's request were manifested in a vocal manner over a decade ago, and Sakurai actually took notice.

The 2 main franchises of Square Enix: Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest (which obviously took priority over Geno), have now playable reps in Smash and a lot of characters who were far more popular than Geno have made it in (K.Rool, Ridley, Little Mac, Palutena) while others dwindled (Isaac, Ashley, Takamaru, Krystal) so once you down the totem poll of requests, he becomes one of the most popular and talked about by default. It's the opposite of Dixie really, while she was seen as unlikely and that meant she lack requests, the opposite is true for Geno.

While a lot of people argue for having characters that try to appeal to demographics outside of the usual Smash fandom like Reimu, or Saber, or Chief there's also an argument to be made to add characters that appeal to the hardocore crowd, which i firmly believe was one of the reasons for Banjo's inlcusion (compare him to the rest of the Pass, the rest of them appeal to demographics that are usually outside of the normal Smash or even Nintendosphere) for every Wii Fit Trainer and Isabelle, there's a Mega Man and K.Rool. I don't believe Fighter Pass 2 is gonna be fanservice, but i do see that they may want to add a character that appeals to that old-school crowd like Bajno in Fighter Pass 1. Not a pattern, a possibility.

As for reason for his exclusion? Look i could argue about his lack of relevance and importance but if im honest if that really mattered i think Geno woulnd't even be a spirit. He's the Shonen Protagonist Of Characters, no matter how absurd the situation is, this stubborn son of a ***** will simply not die. You gotta admire that.

I guess there's other Square characters, but outside of the other one we are rating now, i don't see any of them getting in. Chrono is dead (i mean it was Super Mario RPG that was on the SNES classic, not CT) Neku was pretty much also dead until recently, i don't see him beign talked about nowhere as Geno or any other character for Smash and i think his return to relevance is far too late to affect his chances now, same goes for 2B who is also barely talked about, and is not Gex Night tonight so sorry Gex. Yes Lara is a super mega big icon of gaming, but beign a best selling franchise and beign super mainstream does not make you more likely. Otherwise we would have gotten Leon S. Kennedy over Mega Man, Power Pro Baseball guy over Simon, Steve over Banjo, and Arle Nadja and Kiryu over Bayonetta.

Of course this could all mean nothing and instead he comes back as a Mii Costume, but hey, it can go either way in my eyes.


TL;DR Out of all the many Smash requests across time, Geno is one of the few who have managed to hold itself tgether so long, so much so they were actually notcied by Sakurai. and unlike another ones i mentioned, they actually managed to still be alive and kicking to this day. If there's any character that could follow up Ridley and K.Rool, not in terms of iconic characters whitin their own series, but in terms of having a strong following from hardcore members of the fanbase that could push him into playable status, it's this guy and probably no one else.


Want: 70%

Sure why not? I gotta admit, back in the Smash 4 days i would not have wanted him, but things have changed a bit now. Now everybody just requests whoever they like (Joker, PP, Bayo) and again, compared to all the other requests that i have seen......yeah again another Grich Hero better than what we will likely be getting. I played SMRPG and he is a fun char, i can see why people would like his moveset in Smash. I ended up loving Simon, K.Rool, Ridley and Even Banjo, so i except him to deliver a fun moveset.

Are there characters that "Deserve it" more than Geno? Absolutely. I believe the likes of Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong, Bomberman, Toad, Isaac, and a RH character would be more logical, but some things that should happen simply don't. and if we can't get the likes of those, at least give me someone i can enjoy and appereciate.

Also just because a character i think should be in Smash doesn't mean i would like to play as them. I firmly believe Toad should have been since Brawl, but if i were to chose him or Geno, i would lie if i dind't say that Geno was more interesing.

I would not be super salty if we don't get him, but god he sounds fun.

Abstaining on Sora tonight, might do tomorrow.
 

SharkLord

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Hoo boy, here we go.
This is Geno!
SmashBoards, this is the seventh time you've argued about Geno

Chance: 30%. Geno's position is... Weird. He's very popular, I'll give him that, but that's about all that's going for him. Sure. we got Banjo, but Geno's got more going against him. He's a one-off character, his sole major appearance is a decades-old spin-off for a franchise that's already heavily represented to the point that one could argue Smash is a Mario spin-off, not to mention Mario was the star of SMRPG. Sure, Geno was right behind him in terms of role, but he's still only co-protagonist at best, and co-protagonists with ****ing Mario himself. Had it not been for the popularity, he'd be as discussed as Rundas or Phosphora, not to mention the fact that he's stacked up against both Mario characters AND Square Enix characters.
There's a couple things regarding him I'd like to address too. One, there's Sakurai wanting him... But according to Byleth's presentation, Nintendo chooses the roster. Nintendo might not be willing to add an old, minor third-party character, and even if they do, Square Enix still might not want to either.
Secondly, his Mii Costume. Geno's Mii didn't come back... But then Heihachi's did. We could easily get Miis for Lloyd, Geno, and the Monster Hunter (And Gil, I guess). Lack of Mii Costume isn't really a point for or against, so moving on.
Thirdly, his popularity. He's held on for an impressive amount of time, but I've seen people go as far as to say he's the last major request, or group him in with Ridley, K. Rool, and Bajo as "The Four Impossibles". There's multiple other characters who have been hotly requested-Isaac, Sora, and Waluigi, just to name a few, and nobody's really grouped the four together until Banjo actually happened. Another thing to note is that support ebbs and flows based on what's going for a character. For example, Geno himself was on a lull in the Smash 4 days, and Isaac took a hit after shooting up immensely thanks to his Mii Costume. Geno's incredibly popular, yes, but he's not the only big request left.
Want: 35%. I'm neutral on the guy, but more than anything I just want the Geno thread vs Newcomer thread dynamic to stop. "You're hyping too much!!" "You're persecuting us!!" It's been enough to make me grow apathetic towards Geno. He could do something cool I guess, but I just want to put this argument to rest. Mii, fighter, I don't care, just please make it stop.

There is no escaping Nomura-san's Wild Ride
Chance: 50%. Long story short, Disney complicates things and makes Sora simultaneously inevitable, impossible, and everywhere in between. Would Nintendo negotiate with Disney? Is Disney willing to strike a reasonable deal? Could Sora work without Disney content? Would Disney allow that? Do we even need to remove the Disney content at all? I'm just going to play it safe and put him in the middle.
Want: 65%. I used to be against him because bias against Disney clouded my judgement, but I've grown passed that. He sounds like he'd have a lot of cool stuff he could do, and I've grown to recognize the impact left by Kingdom Hearts. Besides, my friend really likes Kingdom Hearts too, so that's a plus.

Predictions:
Rayman: 68.09%
Travis Touchdown: 71.27%

Nomination: Klonoa x5
 

Glaciacott

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Geno
Chance - 49%
Basically, I think we'll have one of two outcomes:
- We get Geno
- We get Waluigi

and then a small percentage for the weird scenario where we don't get either of these for some reason, or we get both!

In any case, there's too many things going for this character, more than anything being one of those very commonly requested character for three iterations of Smash speculation now (4 if 3DS counts, 5 if we consider Smash 4 DLC as its own cycle). Much like people saw Banjo as a highly requested character finally getting in, I feel like geno falls within that realm while also not being an assist trophy and having his mii costume still remain inconspicuously missing.

I do think Waluigi is his main obstacle as another Mario character that also happens to be potentially way easier to secure, while also bringing his own share of infamy. And I seriously seriously doubt we will get two Mario characters.

Want - 40%
Assuming 0 is do not want and 100 is I must have this, I'm leaning more towards the "ehhh" side and away from the hype side.
I think over the years my take on Geno has constantly changed, and in my current iteration I'm not too interested in him. The amount of potential first parties that I want or would enjoy to see ahead of him is fairly high, and I also never really played his game. The main thing that would be cool is to see resolution of a storyline brewing since Brawl, but it's just as fine for me if it doesn't come to be. In fact, out of the outcomes I mentioned above I think I would actually be way more amused by the one where Waluigi gets in.

Sora
Chance - 10%
While particularly desired, I honestly don't see a lot of signs pointing at the possibility of Sora. Hero was the big missing element from Square Enix and now Geno is probably the most popularly requested within the Smash community. To me Sora is around the same realm as Lara Croft and 2B, or even non-square characters like Lloyd Irving. Possible, but I don't see him as explosively likely as someone like Crash.

Want - 50%
My interest in Kingdom Hearts has dwindled dramatically over the years as the titles have gotten more and more convoluted, so I don't feel a lot of attachment to the idea of Sora in Smash. The moveset would probably be cool, and the music has a ton of potential, but I just don't care that much for the character.
Now, one exception would be if we somehow got something wild like Donald and Goofy showing up. Then I'd be significantly more interested as it would be huge for Disney to jump into Smash. That border of Mario and potentially Mickey (as a mii costume to accompany Sora) being in this game would be wild to cross and make this a far more interesting inclusion. But then that's more want for a specific line to be crossed and not so much the actual character.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
The Geno Side of Smash

Chance: ???
**** if I know, I'm done trying to pin down Geno's chances. He's a one of a kind case in speculation, an anomaly that is unlikely to ever happen again. He's got so much against him, but the two things he has going for him (Sakurai approval and overwhelming fan support) are two of the strongest things you can have pulling for you. I want to be reductionist and give him a 50% because he either happens or he doesn't, but that doesn't feel right for a character like Geno. Particularly because of the competition, Square Enix is ****ing crowded and it really feels like anyone there could take it.

If you put a gun to my head and asked me what I'm expecting to happen, I'd say his Mii Costume coming back with a song. But I've been expecting that since before Hero and it hasn't panned out, so I'm allowing myself to hope.

Want: 100%
Look, I love SMRPG, I love me some puppet gunman, all that stuff. My want for Geno is strong despite how the fanbase has treated me.

But, love him or hate him, I think everyone should agree that Smash will never be complete without him. His fans really aren't going to give up. At this point Geno is a part of Smash already. I read articles about Smash, and they mention Geno when talking about characters Smash fans want. That's his legacy. Moreso even than characters like Captain Falcon, Mr. G&W or the Icies, Geno's legacy has become being asked for for Smash. What character can claim that? Ridley and K. Rool and Waluigi are iconic villains in huge franchises, Dixie and Bandana Dee are player characters in famous franchises, Isaac carries the entire legacy of Golden Sun on his back, but Geno is just wanted because he's... Geno. He isn't the main character of SMRPG, he isn't even the face of Mario RPGs in general, and if it was just about having an SMRPG original character, Mallow would also have support. But that's not what it's about. It's just that a massive group of people took to a character design and decided to support that; many Geno fans haven't even played the game he's from! That's amazing to me, the fact that a character can grow such a legacy from Smash without even being in it.

Bottom line is, imagine Geno gets in. It would be closing the book on quite the story, huh? I'd like to see that.

Damn it's hard to think of something new to say about Sora

Chance: 45%
Sora's score is almost 50% because he has everything you'd look for in a Smash character. Iconic, relevant, demanded, popular worldwide, new franchise, cool moves, good music, stages, all that stuff. I don't think Disney's an obstacle, really, Disney's just a company like any other, they do business with Nintendo just fine and they have no reason to refuse a Smash offer. I did dock 5% because I could see Sora being a costly character (like I did with characters like Crash, Master Chief and Dante). We did get Dragon Quest, but I can see that being a bit cheaper because Nintendo was really promoting DQXIS with it, and there's no angle like that for KH. Aside from Dragon Quest, we haven't gotten any massive franchises as DLC, so I'm not going to expect them.

Want: 100%
**** yeah I want Sora in Smash, are you kidding me? I'm a huge Disney fan and a huge Final Fantasy fan and a sucker for cheesy emotional stuff, of course I'm into Kingdom Hearts. And I want to see Sora in Smash, I want to hear Simple and Clean in Smash, I wanna visit The World that Never Was in Smash, the whole package please.

More than anything else though, I want Sora in Smash to be canon to Kingdom Hearts. Really, the only downside is that as DLC, he wouldn't be part of World of Light and so Nomura won't have to explain that away.

Ughh we should have gotten Sora in Subspace Emissary this is so unfairrr

Noms: Jason and Sophia x5
Rayman prediction: 26.73%
Travis prediction: 33.97%

Also I'm really not looking forward to counting scores and noms for this day
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
22,656
Location
Scotland
hmm two characters who arent owned by who people think own them

gonna abstain on the king of nostalgia bait as i have lost all respect for the character

as for sora
chances: 50% i can see it happening. the idea that disney is gonna be to uncooperative just doesnt ring true to me because there's two disney films with nintendo stuff and there's a nintendo game all about disney characters. see wreck it ralph and disney art academy for more info. kingdom hearts is hugely popular and everyone loves sora more so than other characters who seemingly got in popularity alone (im looking at you joker). the idea that sora is too ingrained with non video game stuff to include in smash should be no more disqualifying than pikachu being a main character in an anime. for a start kingdom hearts is probably a completely separate (and probably cheaper) licence than mickey and co and there is more than enough kh original stuff to work with for spirits and what have you. now its true we dont know if sakurai thinks sora is to ingrained with disney or not but we dont know how he feels about most characters so perhaps theres not much point worrying about that. in short i believe sora is a distinct possibility and can go on way or the other.

want: 100% yes please. kingdom hearts is one of my all time favourite video game series right up there with zelda, pokemon and mario. sora is my favourite character from the series and is one of my most wanted 3rd parties along with tails, nate, layton and wright. it would be amazing and pure hype.

nominate nate adams x5
 

Cadillac

Smash Seeker
Joined
Oct 29, 2019
Messages
665
Abstain on chances

Geno want: 30%
Eh, for Square rep I prefer Sora or BD rep like Edea, Ringabel or Yew. I think he might be another case of Banjo. His toolkit revolves around zoning opponents, and remember what happened before?
I feel like he'd just be pretty annoying to fight against online, and his gimmick is about making the moves stronger.

Sora want: 75%
I like him more, since his moveset is more about combos. His attacks in KH seems really flashy, and I would like to do it in Smash. And, he would be the element of surprise since he's a pick that everyone wants, but people outside of his fans consider him impossible. Geno is more expected, so I would like to see the surprise on people's face when Sora gets in.

Noms: Ghirahim x5

Rayman: 24%
Travis: 12%
 

RouffWestie

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2013
Messages
1,237
Location
Georgia
Sora
Chance: 53%

A widely-known and popular franchise worldwide. He is a highly popular request for Smash. After Resident Evil got spirited despite meeting every typical qualification for Smash, I'm not putting it past Nintendo to simply pass on Sora for whatever reason.
Want: 10%
Personally, Sora just isn’t the character for me, but KH should be in Smash in some capacity. I’m not the biggest KH fan, but there’s a lot of things I liked about it. The crossover aspect was novel for the time; I remember seeing the first game at a friends house when I was a kid and I’ll never forget the sheer confusion I felt seeing Goofy and Donald Duck on the same cover as (at the time what I assumed to be) legit Final Fantasy characters. Even though I don’t care for many of the characters, I ended up at least warming up to Axel; if there’s ever a KH fighting game, I’d probably main him.
Geno
Chance: 30%

It’s entirely possible his Mii Costume will just return in a future DLC pack. I don’t know if he has as much “obvious, overwhelming, demand in the Smash community” as K. Rool and Banjo, but I do see him getting mentioned very often. After seeing the treatment he got in Smash 4, I think he could have a fair chance,
Want: 100%
He’s got cool weapons and abilities. His design stands out among Mario characters. He’s one of those long-time requests I’d be happy to see finally make it in.
 
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YoshiandToad

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 24, 2001
Messages
7,123
Location
Still up Peach's dress.
Splintered Opinions
Chance: 18%

Geno is a character who is more famous for his Smash fan demand than his own actual game at this point.

He and Mallow are owned by Square.
Square made a couple of Mario sports spinoffs since SMRPG came out and were allowed to put in their own playable characters. You'd think this would be the perfect time to bring in Geno and Mallow, Square's Mario-verse cast as cute little cameos but instead we got Black Mage, White Mage, Ninja, Moogle, Cactaur and Slime. Even with six guest spots Square didn't put these two forward in the title that was practically made for them.

I have to conclude that Square don't much care for Geno. Nintendo didn't want to pay Square the rights for Geno's cameo in the Superstar remake. I have to conclude from that Nintendo isn't particularly invested in Geno's revival either.

So that leaves Sakurai, who has gone on record as saying he thinks Geno is cool and the hundreds-thousands of Geno supporters.

Sakurai for his part seemed pretty happy with the Mii costume last time, and despite mentioning he thought Geno would be cool he hasn't added him three games on. I think his Mii outfit's on it's way back but hopefully with a Sans/Cuphead/Pipboy style mascot head.

Fan demand could push Geno forward as a possible fighter option for Nintendo, but he's a weird choice as I feel like neither company gets much out of his inclusion. You could argue the same for Banjo though.

(Captain) Toad, Paper Mario or even Waluigi will be more appealing to Nintendo if they want to push Mario characters as they're all far more recognisable to the general public and appear in so many of their titles they're part of the brand, and Square have Sora, 2B and Lara Croft to name a few that are both big stars and have games to push.

Want: 2%
Geno is very much a Marmite character. You either love him or hate him. GameFAQS and Smashboards both have plenty of people in both these factions.

I'm in the less discussed third category. I don't 'get' his appeal.

I think he's a bad Mario representative, and I think he's a bad Square representative.
I'm also European, so I don't have the nostalgia for the character that many do since we didn't get the game until the Wii release of Virtual Console.

By the time I played the title, I'd built up this image of how great Geno must be for everyone to want him in Smash over more regular Mario cast members, and I just can't comprehend it. I thought he'd be at least in from the get-go, but he doesn't turn up for quite some time and when he does...well, he's a stronger unit than Mallow is but that doesn't seem like enough?

I'd also played (IMO) better Mario RPGs in the first two Paper Mario titles and Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga by that point, so you can thank Nintendo of Europe for my unfair judgement if you like.

Happy for an upgraded Mii costume, but he's so damn minor to Mario, Nintendo and Square themselves I think it's hard to objectively suggest SMRPG needs a fighter all to itself.

I'll do Sora later.
 

BlueEyedGrimmbat

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
116
Abstain on Sora. Geno though, hoo boy...

Chance: 35%
Really, you can't go anywhere in Smash speculation without hearing Geno's name getting thrown around. I'm not even sure whether he's first, second, or third party - he's made for a Nintendo franchise, but the game he was made for was developed by Square Enix, so he's technically Squeenix's character, but he's part of the Marioverse so he's a Nintendo character???

That aside, I think that among those who've been discussed a long time, and especially for first(?)-parties, Geno is one of, if not the most, polarizing character right now. On the one hand, Squeenix doesn't seem to care about him. On the other...Sakurai does.

Really, this wooden, higher-authority serving puppet is so hard to judge.

Want: 15%
...OK? I've never cared much for Geno, nor his franchise. I'm not going to go mad if he gets in Smash - good for those who've been campaigning for him for years (and that means a lot of people) but I personally feel indifferent to him. Me and my anime girls...

Speaking of!

Noms: Amiya (Arknights) x5

If I recall correctly, 50 noms is the safe zone, right? So my 5-star caster girl is home free!

"Welcome home, Doctor!"
 

waddledeeonredyoshi

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
1,536
Location
Drenthe, NL
THIS BETTER BE THE LAST TIME WE'RE RATING HIM! THIS IS LIKE THE 20TH TIME C'MON
Chance: 5%
The main driving force behind Geno is a man who doesn't actively pick the DLC and a bunch of small incidents which some people like to call "evidence" such as Cacaomallow, the Gamestop mess up and the music takedowns along some other things I forgot about.

I don't think I need to explain why Cacaomallow and the Gamestop are complete bogus that shouIdn't be taken seriously but I'll admit the music takedowns carry some merit. Honestly, I do believe Geno will be DLC in some form. So why the mere 5%? Yup, it's the dreaded C-word.

I have little reason to believe Geno as a fighter is likelier than his costume returning. The takedowns are the biggest thing in his favour but after Sans they help his costume just as much as him as a fighter. Some people might say "Impossible, they wouldn't wait this long just to bring his costume back." Heihachi says hi and also those people clearly haven't learned from the November 2018 direct were fan favourites like Shadow, Isaac and Skull kid were revealed to be Assist Trophies at the last minute. I think that makes it pretty clear that the Smash team does not care about ripping off the bandage early for the sake of not hurting fans as much.

When it comes to Geno as a fighter both Square and Nintendo would have to play ball. Sakurai himself likely wouldn't matter much. Given the benefit of the doubt, Square might be neutral on Geno and willing to cooperate despite still not giving a **** about the character. At that point it just depends on Nintendo pulling the trigger. How likely is that? Factoring in the huge competition from other Square characters, other Mario characters and other characters waiting in line for one of the five remaining slots in general as well as the only official measurement of fan demand happening at a time were we was nowhere near as popular as now combined with creative freedom being intentionally limited in recent Mario RPG games (that TOK interview) and you'd get my precentage.

Want: 0.1%
I can admire the detication of his fans but I still have little interest in the character. There are multiple characters I'd much rather see for having more merits aside from fan demand alone or for being able to add more to the Smash Bros crossover.

Didny
Chance: 17.5%
Kingdom Hearts and Sora sure are popular. The guy would certainly be unique judging by the crazy stuff you see happening in KH combat footage. Would be prime FP material imo if it wasn't for the corporation that owns him. I ain't saying Disney wouldn't want to play ball altogether but I do think Nintendo would be a bit hesitant to approach them. Granted they are cooperating with tencent so what do I know? Still, Sora is one of the few characters that could fall victim to the Small Budget theory.


Want: Abstaining

Rayman: 22.18% Some people will mention recent pieces of "evidence" but others will still hold his eastern obscurity, the Ubisoft costumes and not being Crash Bandicoot against him
Travis: 35.54%
Hades x5
 
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fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
22,656
Location
Scotland
Abstain on Sora. Geno though, hoo boy...

Chance: 35%
Really, you can't go anywhere in Smash speculation without hearing Geno's name getting thrown around. I'm not even sure whether he's first, second, or third party - he's made for a Nintendo franchise, but the game he was made for was developed by Square Enix, so he's technically Squeenix's character, but he's part of the Marioverse so he's a Nintendo character???

That aside, I think that among those who've been discussed a long time, and especially for first(?)-parties, Geno is one of, if not the most, polarizing character right now. On the one hand, Squeenix doesn't seem to care about him. On the other...Sakurai does.

Really, this wooden, higher-authority serving puppet is so hard to judge.

Want: 15%
...OK? I've never cared much for Geno, nor his franchise. I'm not going to go mad if he gets in Smash - good for those who've been campaigning for him for years (and that means a lot of people) but I personally feel indifferent to him. Me and my anime girls...

Speaking of!

Noms: Amiya (Arknights) x5

If I recall correctly, 50 noms is the safe zone, right? So my 5-star caster girl is home free!

"Welcome home, Doctor!"
hes 3rd party pure and simple
 

Garteam

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
3,284
Location
Canada, eh?
NNID
Garteam
Gun Pinocchio

Chance: 65%
Much like Ridley was before his reveal, Geno's a weird character to rate due to how extreme his strengths and weaknesses are. On the one hand, he's a one-off supporting character from a 24 year-old game that requires external negotiations to obtain. On the other hand, he's incredibly popular, has very strong moveset potential, and has even gotten the seal of approval from Sakurai in the past. He's also no longer held back by spirits potentially being an issue and his Mii costume is still missing, but that could change rather quickly (as it did for poor Heihachi).

However, weighing the evidence, it really seems like the pros outweigh the cons here. Mainly, his popularity is his saving grace. Looking back at our past newcomers, it really seems like being popular (particularly during the ballot era) is the best thing a character can have going for them. :ultridley:, the idea of a Castlevania character, :ultchrom:, :ultdarksamus:, :ultkrool:, the idea of a Dragon Quest character, and :ultbanjokazooie: were all stated to be products of the ballot. Likewise, :ultinkling:, :ultdaisy:, and :ultisabelle: were all also popular on the ballot. Even the fact that we got :ult_terry:, a character who lights up SNK fanpolls to this day, and the fact that the ARMS character came down to Ninjara and :ultminmin, two of the biggest ensemble darkhorses in ARMS, really shows how much popularity has shaped Ultimate. Love him or hate him, Geno's requests are up there with the big boys in terms of their sheer quantity. Yes, he does have a somewhat noticeable hatedom in response to this demand, but so did Ridley. So, that's likely not an issue.

The biggest thing at this point is getting all parties to agree to him. Sakurai seems to be the most enthusiastic about him and, given that Joker was Sakurai's idea and Square deferred to Sakurai in the Hero/Slime debate, that's definitely a good thing. I also don't think Square is as opposed to him as many might think. Sure, Cloud and Hero beat him to the game, but Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were always going to be first to join the battle. Yes, Square has little to gain from an advertising perspective from adding Geno, but Trials of Mana and Octopath Traveler they also seem perfectly fine to show off their new releases as spirits. Plus, if Square was so focused on showing off their new stuff in Smash, why'd they let Geno be their one Mii costume in Smash 4 in the first place? Hell, why didn't they make Nomura put his foot down on getting a more recent Final Fantasy character for Smash 4?

He's far from a shoe-in, but I think Geno still has a very good shot.

Want: 85%
Honestly, I don't have much first hand experience with Geno. Unpopular opinion, but I think Super Mario RPG has aged relatively poorly, especially relative to the other Mario and Super Nintendo RPGs. That being said, Geno's pretty cool and he's definitely earned his spot. It would be neat to see Smash's ultimate underdog get in after a decade long fight for his inclusion. It would also be nice for all the fighting surrounding the character to end definitively.

Friendship Man

Chance: 15%
Yeah, Sora's another weird case, but I'm much less optimistic about his chances. He's incredibly iconic, has great moveset potential, and comes from an extremely popular franchise. However, there's one big factor that sinks his otherwise inevitable inclusion: Disney. Disney is easily the largest and most bureaucratic company Nintendo would have to negotiate with thus far. There's also the language barrier and Disney's infamous need to micromanage their IPs to take into account. Plus, unlike Microsoft (another big western company), Disney seems to be a little more indifferent to Smash Bros. Putting all of this together, it really doesn't seem like Sora's happening.

Want: 85%
I'm pretty indifferent on Sora, but I have a very close friend who loves Kingdom Hearts to death and really wants Sora in Smash. As such, I'm gonna give him a high want score just to see her reaction.
 

Sari

Editing Staff
Writing Team
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Aug 3, 2014
Messages
4,439
Location
New Jersey
NNID
Villager49
Switch FC
SW-2215-0173-2152
Geno

Chance: 40%
On one hand, Geno is quite possibly the biggest Smash request not yet playable. Sakurai is aware of his popularity and Min Min also helps to show that spirits aren't completely dead. On the other hand, he still has competition with other Square Enix characters who have more appeal to the general public (I have never heard anyone talk about Geno outside of Smash). There is also the possibility that they just add his SSB4 Mii Costume and call it a day after what happened to Heihachi, though in Geno's case I can easily see him getting the Sans treatment by getting a mask + Forest Maze music track.

Want: 0%
Geno is the one big character in Smash speculation who I just never got the hype behind. I beat SMRPG many years back and while I did enjoy it, Geno himself never really stuck out to me (I legit remember more of Mallow’s role in the story than I do of Geno’s). Heck I probably would’ve forgotten about him had it not been for Smash speculation. When it comes to Mario characters there are a ton of other characters I’d much prefer like Waluigi and Toad. When it comes to Square Enix characters there are a lot of other candidates I’d rather see make it into Smash. Usually when we’ve rated Geno in the past, I’d be generous and give him a 5% want score for his fans. However I’ve been really growing onto the idea of two other Square Enix characters (Neku and Lara Croft) getting into Smash and Geno’s inclusion would most likely kill their chances. So in the end, Geno is a character that can fit into a lot of categories but doesn’t fit into any of mine.

-----

Abstaining on Sora

-----

Rayman chance prediction: 11.00%
Travis chance prediction: 40.00%

Nominations:
Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume x5
 
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Jomosensual

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
2,014
Geno

Chance 50 - Either he's in or he's not at this point. Probably the most requested character who's not in right now, which is a big plus. Would also be fairly unique. Not sure if he'll have a new concept because I don't know much about SMRPG. Another positive I have for Geno is that I think he'd fit perfectly for a hype but not super expensive pick. I've already said a few times that I don't expect the likes of Lara Croft, Sora, Master Cheif, etc because they'd likely cost a lot and this pass seems like it's going to lean towards being more hype to play as over hype to have included. Geno slots into a good roll though because he would be very hype for a large chunk of the fanbase while not likely being too expensive since SMPRG and Geno aren't exactly well known outside the Smash speculation bubble. Could see him getting picked to try and sell the pass due to the amount of hype he'd be able to generate without likely costing too much.

Want 55 - I don't really care. Would be nice to see him get in to fulfill one of the last major pre Ultimate fanbases, but Geno fandom has been getting more and more on my nerves as of late so I'd just like to see him get sent one way or the next so we can finally move on. Could be fun to play as the reaction videos for him would be fun to see though.


Sora

Chance 15 - Falling all the way down from 60% since the last time I rated him. Why? Mainly because of what I said above. I don't think we're getting the most hype characters possible in the pass anymore. Based on what we saw Sakurai say at the end of the Byleth direct and how it was followed up with Min Min being probably being the most unique character we've gotten yet it seems like we're getting more wild designs over hype names. I'm not counting this out because with how open Nintendo is being about Coronavirus effecting their plans(which is not at all open, not even kinda) it's possible that Min Min just got pushed up or something but I don't think I'd put money on that. Feels like Sora is a pass seller name that would get revealed early and if we dont' see him sooner than later then feels like his chances are toast.

Want 100 - Would love this. Sora is one of the more possible hype names out there. I love losing my **** over cool character inclusions so I'd be more than happy to see this happen. His moveset potential seems pretty underrated too.


Predictions
Travis 31%
Rayman 8%

Noms
John Marston x3
Jin Sakai x2
 
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BowserKing

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2019
Messages
1,918
Location
winnipeg
Geno

Chance: 30%. Due to Min-Min becoming playable, Geno’s chance has increased quite a bit. And it also seems that Square Enix is slowly becoming more supportive of characters in Smash, so that also helps in Geno’s favour.

Want: 95%. While I prefer it if Fawful or Dark Bowser got in first, Geno would still be a very fun character to play as. I can see him ally with Mario and either Peach or Bowser in a fight against some kinds of opponents. Overall, Geno would not only be a great choice, I think he could be the best choice to be the final character in the second fighter’s pass so it will end in a bang.

Sora

Chance: 10%. While Square Enix is slowly becoming more supportive of it’s characters, Sora is still one of those characters with a low chance of getting in. This is because Disney is technically one of Sora’s owners (since Square Enix helped) and it would some what be a difficult character to get a lisence to use.

Want: 50%. On the other hand, he would be a fun character to play as, and I can see him face off against Cloud. Overall, Sora would be a fun choice, but it would be difficult to get his lisence.

Prediction: Ray-Man (25%) and Travis (20%)

Noms: 5 for Echo: Olimar
 
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YoshiandToad

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 24, 2001
Messages
7,123
Location
Still up Peach's dress.
Mickey Mouse Gijinka
Chance: 21%

Ah, Kingdom Hearts. What an absolutely mad concept for a video game series. It sounds like a fanfiction writer's fever dream. Final Fantasy crossed over with Disney animation. Crazy stuff.

Square I can see actually wanting to push Sora forward as a candidate. He's genuinely popular, he's a good piece of advertisement(even though the Switch sadly doesn't have the mainline titles...yet) and Kingdom Hearts sells gangbusters. He's an easy win for Square.

Well, almost an easy win. Unfortunately Sora and friends are owned by someone else.

Now I absolutely love Disney. I know it's popular to hate on Disney for their ruthless legal department and them being the very reason we had to constantly change the way copyright law worked so they could protect Mickey Mouse, but god damn if I don't have a soft spot for Mickey, Donald and Goofy.

Can I see Disney giving the okay to this? More importantly, can I see Disney wanting Sora in if they get to have a say on which character gets in? Eh...maybe?

A team up between Disney and Nintendo isn't the most bizarre thing I've ever heard, we've seen Bowser cameo in Wreck it Ralph after all and Nintendo were fine with the characters of Felix and Ralph being affectionate parodies of Mario and Donkey Kong respectively and there's been plenty of Nintendo based Disney games including the cult classic Epic Mickey.

Disney's protective of their properties, and Sakurai is unlikely to budge on his one rule about video game origination so it'd be interesting to see what would happen if the two discuss business.

Want: 33%
Look...I liked Kingdom Hearts, my Playstation 2 unfortunately blew up midway through Kingdom Hearts 2 so I never finished that title and I'd like to play the third one now I've obtained a PS4...but I don't really care about the Final Fantasy or KH OCs at all. I am PURELY here for the Disney cast as a massive animation nerd. Hell, I knew who Oswald the Lucky Rabbit was prior to Epic Mickey reintroducing him, so the more references to classic and obscure Disney the better for me.

Kingdom Hearts without Donald and Goofy for me, isn't what I'm about. Whilst I know it's perfectly feasible to have Sora come solo as he did in Dream Drop Distance with maybe some Heartless references(which is the only OCs I really liked the designs of), I just wouldn't want it like that.

You include Donald and Goofy in Sora's moveset or Final Smash? Hell yeah I'm all aboard, but without it and just Sora and his ragtag gang from Destiny Island? No thank you.

Nominations:
Mii Costume: Alex Kidd x 5

Predictions:
Rayman: 27%, Travis: 24%
 

SSGuy

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
2,684
Location
Dallas, TX/FGCU
3DS FC
4871-4520-9643
Previous comments on Geno:

Abstaining on Sora
I completely understand Geno arguments seems to be running in circles at this point but every single thing mentioned about Geno not having a chance to get in has been said about Ridley, K.Rool, Banjo etc. Really seems like it will only be a matter of time before Geno fans (and Lloyd Irving if we want to include all 5 of the biggest fan legacy picks for Smash) will get their fair shake.

However, there is always a closing window of opportunity and his window of opportunity has been slammed shut, ripped back open, bolted down, left ajarred, etc. It is really difficult to tell where he is. However, regardless of whatever Geno's fate may be, it is a ship I am willing to sink or ceremoniously parade with. He's been my most wanted since 2005 after all.

Chance: 50%
Want: 110%
I think a lot has happened and has been surfacing the past few months to really bolster his chances. Obviously Min Min's inclusion has removed Geno's greatest hurdle. There has been a lot of unique developments regarding the GameStop slip up in their Origami King video and murmurs behind those who are genuinely fans of Geno. A lot of what is going on with him is similar to Hero where it's one of those 50/50 deals. However, I think my odds for Geno have increased in the past month. And I'm usually one of the most cynical fans of Geno. It seems like such a Nintendo move to just continue to ignore Mario fans and pull a Modern Paper Mario by just adding some ****ty Generic Toad instead.

However, I think we have a shot a getting the good ending for once!

Chance: 65% (+15 since February)

Want: 110% (Has not changed. Still my most wanted.)

Abstain on Sora and Nomination
 
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DrifloonEmpire

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 2, 2019
Messages
2,230
Geno

Chance: 50% - Geno's honestly a toss-up at this point. His Mii Costume is still missing, there's been plenty of hints by those who are more in-the-know, the Gamestop slip-up (though that one is more of a grain of salt), and he regularly places Top 3 in fan polls. Sakurai has also mentioned wanting him for multiple games and he's more than likely trying to act on 20 years of fan support for the character. That is some serious dedication!

Alongside that, there's also CacoMallow (though it slowly grows weaker; if nothing shows up for it by next fighter pack it should probably be declared just a hoax). More importantly, we now have both Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest in Smash - both Nintendo-legacy Square Enix flagship franchises, which eliminates some of Geno's biggest competition. Not to mention Square Enix getting two spirit events recently. With little bits of evidence popping up Banjo-style, this is probably the best position Geno's been in in a long time!

Though Geno isn't without his caveats. Those little bits of evidence could end up leading to nothing like we've seen with other characters. Furthermore, there was active petitioning for the two Square Enix reps. Sakurai pushed for a Final Fantasy rep (and Cloud specifically) while Nintendo more than likely pushed for Hero to promote 11S (a game they pushed very heavily), with Square themselves suggesting the other heroes. While Geno could very much be the Banjo of this pass, Nintendo has no real reason to push for Geno (and they're choosing the characters). They've shown no interest in using him for anything in recent years and he has nothing to promote. Though on that front, the usual difficulty with Square is licensing art, music, etc. Most of Super Mario RPG's assets are owned by Square themselves and the game's musician is already doing music for Smash, so the easier licensing might be seen as a point of appeal.

Alongside that, there's the typical Square problem of A LOT of inter-company competition. While the two big pillars of Square Enix are out of the way (and I also expect this to happen for Namco's cast if Lloyd's Mii Costume returns), there's still a lot of characters on similar levels to Geno that could be up for consideration instead, like Sora (active and ongoing franchise, also regularly placing top 3 in fan polls, especially in Japan), Lara Croft (granted she's less likely due to being Eidos, and while she appeals to Sakurai's historical picks she probably isn't a target for Nintendo to market. But still a popular possibility!), Gex (because he's Gex), Chrono (another long-time fan request), 2B (Who could, unfortunately, get in via the Joker clause due to the good relationship between Nintendo, Square, and Platinum despite Drakengard's complete lack of Nintendo presence), Agnes (While Bravely is a smaller series, it remains Nintendo exclusive), and a bunch of others. Lets not forget that Heihachi's Mii Costume returning this late in the game, along with Geno not even being the only Square costume missing (Chocobo hat) which could end up spelling the end for Geno.

All in all, the path is open, it just depends on who Nintendo decides to negotiate for in the end!

Want: 40% - I was always more into the Mario platformers than RPGs, so I didn't grow up with Geno or any of his buddies (didn't know who he was until 2010 despite being 26). Alongside that, I've never played much of Super Mario RPG itself, aside from a small part of it with my cousin (coincidentally, though, it was the Forest Maze, meeting Geno, and fighting Bowyer). While he isn't anywhere on the top of my most wanted list, even for Mario characters (I really want Toad and Waluigi), I'm always happy to see more Mario characters and with the fans waiting a long time (and him being the last longtime pillar of fan requests) I think he'd be a very welcome addition! Been lurking around the Geno thread for several months (a muchfriendlier alternative to the General Speculation thread) and there are a lot of nice people there, so seeing them happy would make me happy!


Sora

Chance: 30% - Not much has changed for Sora since last time. Nomura still remains a concern for gaining the rights (though if Nintendo was able to negotiate Dragon Quest, they could do Sora), though even with Disney's infamous legal department they have expressed some interest in seeing Sora in Smash. It's free publicity and money, no reason for Disney to turn that down! Furthermore, the newest Kingdom Hearts game is coming to Switch, and while it isn't a main numbered game it is still a multiplatform console title, which is definitely a positive for Sora.

All in all, it really depends on two things. If Disney is on board, and they seem to be, does Square Enix want to comply? and does Nintendo want to petition for the character? The demand is certainly there! and if so, how does Sakurai want to represent Kingdom Hearts. Due to his "only originating from a game" rule, he could still represent Kingdom Hearts without the Disney content, but the Disney stuff is part of what gives the franchise its' identity. Would Sakurai be willing to clash with his own philosophy of accurate representation to add in Sora? Disney would certainly push for the KH incarnations of their characters in the game, and it all really comes down to how things are represented. It's quite complicated, but in the end I think all parties can find a way to make it work.

Want: 30% - Not one of my top characters, but definitely an interesting choice. Played the first game with a friend and had a fun time with it, so Sora definitely would bring back good memories. Plus the novelty of seeing Disney stuff in Smash is simply too much to just pass up. Plus he's a popular fan choice with an ongoing legacy, it's difficult to argue against him. Let's go Sora!


Nominations:
[Rerate] Prince of All Cosmos x5


Predictions:
Travis - 24.76% - Expecting some decent ratings due to the No More Heroes 1 rating leak.
Rayman - 23.43%
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
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Gun Pinocchio

Chance: 65%
Much like Ridley was before his reveal, Geno's a weird character to rate due to how extreme his strengths and weaknesses are. On the one hand, he's a one-off supporting character from a 24 year-old game that requires external negotiations to obtain. On the other hand, he's incredibly popular, has very strong moveset potential, and has even gotten the seal of approval from Sakurai in the past. He's also no longer held back by spirits potentially being an issue and his Mii costume is still missing, but that could change rather quickly (as it did for poor Heihachi).

However, weighing the evidence, it really seems like the pros outweigh the cons here. Mainly, his popularity is his saving grace. Looking back at our past newcomers, it really seems like being popular (particularly during the ballot era) is the best thing a character can have going for them. :ultridley:, the idea of a Castlevania character, :ultchrom:, :ultdarksamus:, :ultkrool:, the idea of a Dragon Quest character, and :ultbanjokazooie: were all stated to be products of the ballot. Likewise, :ultinkling:, :ultdaisy:, and :ultisabelle: were all also popular on the ballot. Even the fact that we got :ult_terry:, a character who lights up SNK fanpolls to this day, and the fact that the ARMS character came down to Ninjara and :ultminmin, two of the biggest ensemble darkhorses in ARMS, really shows how much popularity has shaped Ultimate. Love him or hate him, Geno's requests are up there with the big boys in terms of their sheer quantity. Yes, he does have a somewhat noticeable hatedom in response to this demand, but so did Ridley. So, that's likely not an issue.

The biggest thing at this point is getting all parties to agree to him. Sakurai seems to be the most enthusiastic about him and, given that Joker was Sakurai's idea and Square deferred to Sakurai in the Hero/Slime debate, that's definitely a good thing. I also don't think Square is as opposed to him as many might think. Sure, Cloud and Hero beat him to the game, but Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were always going to be first to join the battle. Yes, Square has little to gain from an advertising perspective from adding Geno, but Trials of Mana and Octopath Traveler they also seem perfectly fine to show off their new releases as spirits. Plus, if Square was so focused on showing off their new stuff in Smash, why'd they let Geno be their one Mii costume in Smash 4 in the first place? Hell, why didn't they make Nomura put his foot down on getting a more recent Final Fantasy character for Smash 4?

He's far from a shoe-in, but I think Geno still has a very good shot.

Want: 85%
Honestly, I don't have much first hand experience with Geno. Unpopular opinion, but I think Super Mario RPG has aged relatively poorly, especially relative to the other Mario and Super Nintendo RPGs. That being said, Geno's pretty cool and he's definitely earned his spot. It would be neat to see Smash's ultimate underdog get in after a decade long fight for his inclusion. It would also be nice for all the fighting surrounding the character to end definitively.

Friendship Man

Chance: 15%
Yeah, Sora's another weird case, but I'm much less optimistic about his chances. He's incredibly iconic, has great moveset potential, and comes from an extremely popular franchise. However, there's one big factor that sinks his otherwise inevitable inclusion: Disney. Disney is easily the largest and most bureaucratic company Nintendo would have to negotiate with thus far. There's also the language barrier and Disney's infamous need to micromanage their IPs to take into account. Plus, unlike Microsoft (another big western company), Disney seems to be a little more indifferent to Smash Bros. Putting all of this together, it really doesn't seem like Sora's happening.

Want: 85%
I'm pretty indifferent on Sora, but I have a very close friend who loves Kingdom Hearts to death and really wants Sora in Smash. As such, I'm gonna give him a high want score just to see her reaction.
I'd like to argue against Terry and Min Min's points. Terry was confined to SNK fanpolls and he's the mascot of the entire company, so of course they'd choose him. Fanpolls had nothing to do with it. As for Min Min, Yabuki just wanted her. No ATs, no promotions, no moveset potential, no popularity. Yabuki wanted Min Min, and Yabuki got Min Min. Plain and simple.
 

Super10ZX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
218
First timer. Probably wouldn’t stay here much at all, but felt like doing this.

Geno
Chance: 75%

I’m a firm believer that nobody is “100% guaranteed” to get into Smash, but with the current speculation lineup, Geno really feels like one of the clear front runners at the moment to get in. There’s numerous things going towards his favour, and realistically, it’s a miracle he’s lasted for this long both in speculation and requests.

*Been wanted for over a decade.
*Sakurai himself is a fan of the character and considered him in the past.
*Mii Costume from Smash 4 has yet to return.
*Nintendo taking down uploads of Super Mario RPG music they don’t own.
*Cloud and Hero getting in have lowered some of the heavy competition he has (though it’s still a lot). And Mana and Octopath Traveler Spirits show Square is still playing ball.
*Spirits don’t deconfirm, and Geno and Mallow’s Spirits being some of the only Square-Enix content in base game shows they would likely be more ok with the Smash team using Mario RPG content.

That’s a lot going in his favour that many other characters at the moment don’t seem to have. It’s entirely possible he doesn’t get in for sure, but for now things are looking up. Regardless, I absolutely think he will show up in some form, either as a character or Mii Costume. Would be really weird if he’s just completely absent from the DLC.

Want: 100%
I’ve wanted Geno in Smash since about 2013, after seeing him pop up in numerous “Top 10 characters I want in Smash 4” videos. Though he wasn’t a most wanted of mine until rather recently. If I had been around to do this last year, I probably would have given him a 70-80%. So, what changed for me?

King for Another Day. Geno was my main in that tournament, as well as the first one. While he got screwed to lose Round 1 in the first tournament (going up against Wario and Waluigi when the latter was at peek popularity), KFAD2 he looked really good to win at least one round, representing music from both the Mario RPGs and other stuff composed by Yoko Shimomura... and then he lost Round 1 again. But despite that, Geno in-universe wasn’t upset at his loss, and even became friends with the two people that defeated him and much of the other Round 1 losers.

Even if that whole thing is just a fun music fan project that means nothing for Smash, it made me wish to see Geno in Smash more. To finally have him win something after many years of neglect.

Sora
Chance: 50%

I don’t think Disney would be a big issue towards Sora getting in, even if it would require more legal negotiation than any other character thus far. If they can let Wreck It Ralph in Sonic and All Stars Racing Transformed, and Thanos and Star Wars in Fortnite, then I don’t see an issue with Sora in Smash.

But at the same time, while he’s absolutely a popular pick and Kingdom Hearts is a really big series, there isn’t much going towards him besides those two aspects. That doesn’t mean he can’t happen, he could be in a similar boat to Cloud and Joker who also didn’t have much pointing towards them before their reveal. But right now, Sora’s chances are a 50/50 coin toss in my opinion.

Want: 50%
I’ll admit that I’ve never actually played a Kingdom Hearts game, and because of that I’m not really gravitated towards Sora myself. I have nothing against him, but also nothing really for him. So I just gave him a middling 50%. The series has good music though.
 
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NessAtc.

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"Plus, if Square was so focused on showing off their new stuff in Smash, why'd they let Geno be their one Mii costume in Smash 4 in the first place? Hell, why didn't they make Nomura put his foot down on getting a more recent Final Fantasy character for Smash 4? "

Because it was just as well for them. FF7 Remake was on the way, so they really didn't care.
As for the Geno costume, there was a Chocobo hat as well as you'll recall, and it's pretty clear that Sakurai's got more freedom with mii costumes than he does with fighters.
 
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MisterMike

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
2,252
Damn, this is gonna be the third time I've weighed in on Geno in this thread. So here we go, LONG POST INCOMING!!

-= Geno =-
Chance: 65%
Same as it ever was. Geno's chances haven't really changed that much, mostly due to how little has happened regarding Smash in the wake of The Coof, which has greatly slowed everything down to a near grinding halt. Really, the only major thing that's changed regarding Geno's chances is that Spirits are no longer considered a barrier for entry for potential newcomers. His Mii Costume is still missing even after seven whole DLC Fighters, the rumors surrounding him haven't really changed much, and he's still got a lot of potential for a fun and creative moveset in Smash.

This also holds true for the criticism, with the same people trotting out the same old tired rebuttals time and time again:

"Geno's not relevant!" they claim, despite him being one of the most frequently discussed characters for Smash, so much so that his Smashboards thread has exceeded 3000 pages, making it the biggest character thread in Smashboards history. Outside of Smashboards, Geno still manages to place very highly on fan polls to this day. One such example is SourceGaming's recent Megapoll, which saw Geno place second overall. This Smash fan polls from May 2019, which totaled a collective 22,619 votes, saw Geno in sixth place overall. The Randomized Smash Ultimate Poll on Reddit, which boasts over 50,000 votes cast by over 20,000 unique participants, saw Geno in third place. Pretty good for an "irrelevant side character", wouldn't you say?

But either way, the whole relevancy argument is a dead horse at this point. So many people have used this argument to shout down characters like Banjo and K. Rool before they got in, and now that they're in these same people are trumpeting how relevant they are to video game history in order to contrast against Geno. Oh, "SquareEnix has barely used Geno since SMRPG, so he's less likely."? Before he was revealed for Smash King K. Rool hadn't seen a game since Mario Super Sluggers in 2010.

"His popularity is exclusive to the Smash Bubble!" they claim which, even if that was true, isn't really a bad thing considering how many Smash fans there are out there. Currently Smash Ultimate has sold around 19.99 million copies worldwide. That's approximately 20 million potential Smash fans which, I hate to break it to you, is a pretty large number of people. And that's not even taking into consideration the amount of fans who have yet to even pick up the game. Not a very small bubble anymore, is it?

"He'll most likely come back as a Deluxe Mii Costume!" they claim, despite all of the "Deluxe Mii Costumes" being big indie characters that realistically didn't have much of a chance of getting in anyways. Also, the fact that Sakurai has acknowledged his popularity back during Smash 4, even giving his costume in Smash 4 a splash screen which was and still is unheard of for a Mii Costume. I swear, people give the man so little credit when it comes to picking fighters that they unironically believe he'll Mii Costume every character they want indiscriminately. Also also, you can use the whole "They'll most likely be a Mii Costume!" point to dismiss literally any potential character you don't like, so it's not a very useful criticism.

"There are plenty of other SquareEnix characters that are more likely than he is!" they claim, despite most of them having significantly less popularity or demand compared. The closest we get to credible competition for Geno on the SquareEnix side of things are Sora and 2B. One of them would require a significant amount of design tweaking in order to hide their luscious thighs, as well as needing to find a way to make them unique compared to every other sword user already on the roster, whereas the other one isn't even owned by SquareEnix, so they realistically wouldn't be competition as a "SquareEnix rep", as the cool kids like to say. Everyone else pales in comparison to Geno's popularity and demand; Crono, Lara Croft, my boy Gex, even other Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest characters.

And finally, we have the classic "It's Nintendo choosing the DLC, they wouldn't choose someone like Geno.", despite :ultridley::ultkrool::ultbanjokazooie: all being introduced as newcomers chosen by Nintendo. I seriously can't stress this enough, by the way: Nintendo went to one of their biggest rivals, Microsoft, in order to get Banjo & Kazooie, seldom seen characters from what is considered a bygone era of video games, into their mega popular fighting game crossover, all because they knew the fans wanted it.

At this point I can't help but feel as though all of the criticism Geno gets boils down to "I have no attachment to this character or their game, and thus deem them unworthy of joining Smash." Which is totally fine, by the way. Not every characters speaks to everyone equally nor should they, and it's fine to just admit you don't give a **** about them. I just wish people were more open and honest about it, rather than coming up with post-hoc rationalizations to justify him not getting into Smash when Banjo and K. Rool could.

Anyways, I think Geno still has a great chance as DLC this time around.

Want: 100%
I don't have any connection to Geno or SMRPG personally. I never grew up with the game, and even now I don't have much personal attachment to the character himself. Hell, the most I knew of him and SMRPG was from old Newgrounds flash animations back in the day. So why do I want him? Simple: I've already gotten every character I've ever wanted for Smash with this game. I have no more characters I personally want (or any big ones, at least), no one left for me to root for on a personal level, so I throw my weight behind NEVER EVER characters like Geno, because I want those people to feel what I felt seeing K. Rool and Banjo get in. Also, I actually really like Smash speculation, and characters like Geno have a lot going for them.

-= Sora =-
Chance: 15%
While I'm tempted to simply write "EAT **** SORA**** LOLOLOLOL" and leave it at that, I'd be remiss to not try a little harder to explain my position. I'm gonna get this stuff out of the way first: I don't hate Sora or Kingdom Hearts whatsoever. I don't believe that Disney alone would be a factor that would impede his inclusion. Disney is a company, and like all companies I'm sure they'd be able to work something out in order to make Sora in Smash happen. I also don't believe that he couldn't make it in due to all the non-video game Disney IPs, since there are plenty of original characters from KH that would be sufficient to represent the series in Smash.

Right, with that out of the way, here are the reasons I don't believe Sora is coming to Smash:
Everything that Nintendo does with the character not only has to be approved by Disney, but everything that Disney approves has to be approved by Nomura and SquareEnix. When HMK got in contact with a Disney executive regarding who owns Sora, the executive (named Justin) went on to explain that Disney can't just use Sora as they please, and that they have to run everything by Nomura and SquareEnix. What this means is that, if Nintendo would like to use Sora in Smash, they'd have to deal with Disney, who'd have to get the OK from Nomura and SquareEnix before they can do anything with the character.

And that's just for Sora himself. Imagine having to also do this for Kairi, for Riku, for Sora's stage whatever that may be, for the music tracks, and whatever else they'd need to get him in the game in a satisfactory way. It's doable, don't get me wrong, and I'm certainly not professing to be an expert on these matters. But the way I see it, it's a much greater hassle trying to get Sora and Kingdom Hearts in Smash than, for instance, having to deal with the likes of Sony to get Kratos. Hell, going to SquareEnix to get Gex in the game would probably be less of a hassle.
Another concern I have regarding Sora is his fighting style. I don't believe I'm exactly spitting lava here when I say that the reason swordfighters get **** on by the greater Smash fandom is because a lot of them tend to play the same. Whether it's the three Links or the numerous "Charge on Neutral-Special, counter on Down-Special" types that make up the current Fire Emblem roster, most tend to have a hard time justifying any swordfighter that doesn't do something else.

Isaac may use a sword, but he's also got a large list of powerful earth magic that could really set him apart from the typical fare. Travis Touchdown has a royalty free Lightsaber as his weapon of choice, but he's also a grappler, which would go a long way towards spicing up his gameplay. Lloyd Irving is a relatively standard swordfighter, but he has two swords, which is... more than one? But seriously, Lloyd's biggest strength is his combat style, which is very different from the standard swordies. Hell, it's almost tailor-made for Smash with the whole Neutral-Special, Side-Special, Down-Special and Up-Special thing going on.

With Sora, I struggle to come up with much that separates him from other swordfighters, most notably Cloud. Now granted, I've never played a Kingdom Hearts game before, so my outlook on this may be very pedestrian to the seires' faithful, but most of what I've seen of the series' combat has either been basic 1-2 combos and energy shots with Sora's car keys or large, elaborate special moves that would be more befitting of a Final Smash than they would standard Special Moves.

Since the large scale special moves that summon energy carasols wouldn't be very fitting for his Special Moves, he'd have to fall back on his less flashy fare for a moveset. In doing so, he'd basically be a slightly different version of Cloud: Neutral-Special is an energy shot, Up-Special is a rising slash attack for recovery, Down-Special is a charge move in order to power yourself up. Hell, even his basic movement and standard attacks would be pretty similar to Clouds. With the former they both float along the ground in order to quickly maneuver around the battlefield, and with the latter... well, they both use swords. There's only so many ways you can have characters slash and stab before you start repeating movements.

Now at this point you may be thinking "What are you talking about? Sora has so many cool moves that would fit right in with the standard Smash fare!" or "Dude, not every character needs to be unique to make it into Smash!", and to be fair you... kind of have a point there, hypothetical counterarguer. As I've said, this is a very pedestrian take from someone who has little experience with the Kingdom Hearts series, and I totally agree that this isn't a major issue. I mean, it's not like Banjo or Byleth really set the world on fire with some super unique gimmicks or anything. But as has been seen with most of the DLC fighters, having a unique gimmick makes your chances of getting in significantly higher, and I'm tired of pretending that it's not.
There has been literally nothing in terms of insider speculation that points to Sora coming to Smash. Now this may not seem like the biggest detriment to his chances, and to be fair it's not a total dealbreaker or anything, but I find it a tad worrying that his name a seldom ever been heard in insider circles. To wit, we've been hearing more for Waluigi, Geno, and Ryu Hayabusa than we ever have for Sore. Hell, the only times I can recall that we've ever heard Sora's name mentioned was the "7 Squares Leak", which listed Sora as one of the seven names, and an episode of the Kinda Funny Gamescast with insider Imran Khan, who claims that Nintendo went about trying to get Sora for Smash but were turned down by Disney of Japan. That is, as the kids say, a major oof.

All of this combined gives me the impression that he's just not that likely whatsoever.

Want: 40%
All in all, I'm largely indifferent to Sora coming to Smash. I've never played any of the games (and given how convoluted the plot is WHY ****ING WOULD I?), so I don't have any of the nostalgic attachment to the character that others clearly have. And to reiterate it for the Sora fans who likely want to stick my head on a pike for my dour outlook on Sora's chances, I don't hate the series or any of the characters. The only reason I'm not the hottest on Sora getting in Smash is, quite simply, because there are other characters I'd rather see get in. This was much the same situation I was in regarding Steve from Minecraft, and unlike Kingdom Hearts Minecraft is a game I've actually played and really like, and I genuinely believe Steve would work well as a fighter given the vast amount of tools available in his game. Regardless, the only reason I didn't really want Steve in Smash was simply because I wanted Banjo more.

When it comes to Sora, as even this RTC would attest to, many people still see Sora as competition for Geno. And if that's the case then I'd much prefer we get Geno before we get Sora. But even if they weren't considered as competition, I'd still want Geno in before we get Sora. Hell, I'd also prefer we get Isaac, Waluigi and/or Ryu Hayabusa before we get Sora. At the end of the rainbow, I don't really care for Sora in Smash one way or the other.

Speaking of Steve, I nominate Steve x5
No predictions as to who's next.
 
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SharkLord

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First timer. Probably wouldn’t stay here much at all, but felt like doing this.

Geno
Chance: 75%

I’m a firm believer that nobody is “100% guaranteed” to get into Smash, but with the current speculation lineup, Geno really feels like one of the clear front runners at the moment to get in. There’s numerous things going towards his favour, and realistically, it’s a miracle he’s lasted for this long both in speculation and requests.

*Been wanted for over a decade.
*Sakurai himself is a fan of the character and considered him in the past.
*Mii Costume from Smash 4 has yet to return.
*Nintendo taking down uploads of Super Mario RPG music they don’t own.
*Cloud and Hero getting in have lowered some of the heavy competition he has (though it’s still a lot). And Mana and Octopath Traveler Spirits show Square is still playing ball.
*Spirits don’t deconfirm, and Geno and Mallow’s Spirits being some of the only Square-Enix content in base game shows they would likely be more ok with the Smash team using Mario RPG content.

That’s a lot going in his favour that many other characters at the moment don’t seem to have. It’s entirely possible he doesn’t get in for sure, but for now things are looking up. Regardless, I absolutely think he will show up in some form, either as a character or Mii Costume. Would be really weird if he’s just completely absent from the DLC.

Want: 100%
I’ve wanted Geno in Smash since about 2013, after seeing him pop up in numerous “Top 10 characters I want in Smash 4” videos. Though he wasn’t a most wanted of mine until rather recently. If I had been around to do this last year, I probably would have given him a 70-80%. So, what changed for me?

King for Another Day. Geno was my main in that tournament, as well as the first one. While he got screwed to lose Round 1 in the first tournament (going up against Wario and Waluigi when the latter was at peek popularity), KFAD2 he looked really good to win at least one round, representing music from both the Mario RPGs and other stuff composed by Yoko Shimomura... and then he lost Round 1 again. But despite that, Geno in-universe wasn’t upset at his loss, and even became friends with the two people that defeated him and much of the other Round 1 losers.

Even if that whole thing is just a fun music fan project that means nothing for Smash, it made me wish to see Geno in Smash more. To finally have him win something after many years of neglect.

Sora
Chance: 50%

I don’t think Disney would be a big issue towards Sora getting in, even if it would require more legal negotiation than any other character thus far. If they can let Wreck It Ralph in Sonic and All Stars Racing Transformed, and Thanos and Star Wars in Fortnite, then I don’t see an issue with Sora in Smash.

But at the same time, while he’s absolutely a popular pick and Kingdom Hearts is a really big series, there isn’t much going towards him besides those two aspects. That doesn’t mean he can’t happen, he could be in a similar boat to Cloud and Joker who also didn’t have much pointing towards them before their reveal. But right now, Sora’s chances are a 50/50 coin toss in my opinion.

Want: 50%
I’ll admit that I’ve never actually played a Kingdom Hearts game, and because of that I’m not really gravitated towards Sora myself. I have nothing against him, but also nothing really for him. So I just gave him a middling 50%. The series has good music though.
*Been wanted for over a decade.
That's pretty much what keeps him going, really.
*Sakurai himself is a fan of the character and considered him in the past.
Nintendo's choosing the DLC though, not Sakurai. (On a die note, I still can't get over his reasoning for wanting Geno just being "His hand is a gun.")
*Mii Costume from Smash 4 has yet to return.
But they still can, as Heihachi has proved. Then again, any fighter can be Mii's out if the blue, so that's not much a point for or against Geno at the moment.
*Nintendo taking down uploads of Super Mario RPG music they don’t own.
Nintendo's always been really strict with this kind of stuff, especially considering how YouTube has some really ****ty copyright checking
*Cloud and Hero getting in have lowered some of the heavy competition he has (though it’s still a lot). And Mana and Octopath Traveler Spirits show Square is still playing ball.
That's fair.
*Spirits don’t deconfirm, and Geno and Mallow’s Spirits being some of the only Square-Enix content in base game shows they would likely be more ok with the Smash team using Mario RPG content.
Ditto.
I do agree he's likely to get something at the end of the day, even if a Mii costume is more likely.
 

JCKirbs

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I’ll abstain on Sora. I have no interest or attachment to the character, and the amount of speculation surrounding him makes my head spin.

The Forbidden Puppet
Chance: 50%

Like em’ or hate em’, I think Geno has a decent chance at getting in Ultimate. Sakurai may still want him in and Nintendo isn’t afraid to stray from relevant characters in favor of long-time requests (Banjo). Not to mention that, at least in the Smash fanbase, Geno has quite a bit of popularity to back-up his potential inclusion. Therefore at this point, the only thing going against his inclusion would be the appeal of other Square Enix giants like Lara Croft, 2B, and Crono; since Geno’s demand is based purely on fan service, this could be good or bad news depending on how Nintendo wants to tackle FP2.

Want: 40%
Geno has to be the most interesting request for Smash Bros. to this day. The percentage would probably be at ”0%” if I didn’t eventually look at the big picture. I’ve never played SMRPG, nor did I know of the impact that the Geno Mii costume had on the fanbase, nor did I even know about Geno until Smash Ultimate Speculation. So, naturally I wouldn’t care nor want Geno in Smash and even when I eventually did find out about Geno, I never saw the appeal (and honestly, I guess i’m still trying to completely see it to this day). But, for all of rallying that has been going on (since forever) for his inclusion, I think Geno fans deserve more than a Mii Costume or a PNG image this time around. Not to mention that his inclusion would completely tear down the gates of Smash Speculation for good, considering if a 24-Year-Old (side) character who only appeared in 1 & 1/100 games could make it in as premium, paid DLC. I’m all for it at this point, despite not being even remotely attached to the character itself.
 

Proceleon

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Geno
Chance: 10%

As much as it pains me for it to be the case, Geno does stand a small chance, but the mere fact he's currently been shot down for three games straight speaks volumes. Regardless of the suspicious amount of Square content, I don't know how they regard the usage of Geno in a playable context since he basically doesn't seem to matter to them anymore and is more Square's own throwaway child than anything.
That and it would be easier to just bring back the Mii costume, that's the more likely scenario.
Want 0%
If I could put a minus number, I would. The mere mention of his name has become annoying and frankly, I'm not about to back a character just because they've been requested for years either, that's a poor reason to support any character, and considering how Banjo was treated, Geno would never live up the hype. Maybe it's better he stay out.

Sora:
Chance: 1%

Sora's main obstacle isn't Square, it's not Disney and it's not Nintendo.. it's Sakurai. Sakurai's making sure to portray characters as closely as possible to their source material and to do that with Sora he needs Donald and Goofy to be with him; I don't think Sakurai is so dedicated to the craft that he'd willingly go into Disney's territory regardless of whether their arms are open or not and if there's no Disney, there's no Sora.
Want: 0%
Another name I'm tired of hearing. Honestly both of these characters tend to drown out more interesting, and some might even say better choices.
 

3DSNinja

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
1,390
Abstain because I JUST WANT TO GET NEW CHARACTER RATINGS ALREADY.

Nominations: Shuichi Saihara x5
 

Lagguino

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
100
Location
On a cloud with some kid to defeat the Red Ribbon
This is gonna be my fist time ever posting here but imma do it. (Imma try and make it short as posdible)

Starma- i mean...geno: 60%
Personally i think geno has a pretty good shot at getting in especially when the spirits rule got DeDeDestroyed however while geno has his ups he has his downs and Square enix/Nintendo in my opinion is his biggest down. To put it short if geno wasn't onwed by square he'd probably be in by now but other than that his chances seem to get better imo and just maybe he'll be the last puzzle piece to the 4 horesmen of the smashpoclypse.

Want: 100%
1. Awsome moveset potential
2. Smrpg is a game I've only played 2 years ago and i feel like both this game and other mario RPGs need a bit more representation
3. Even just design wise he's pretty cool
4. Music...
5. I want geno to finally get in because he among ridley, K.Rool, and banjo were wanted for a very long time and i think their fans deserve it after the 15 years of waiting.

[Insert KH joke here]: Abstain% (Honestly it's hard for me to tell since sora's chances goes up and down like a rollercoaster)

Want: 40%
Not really a HUGE fan of KH (we'll because i only played like 20 minutes of KH2 years ago and thats it.) But the only reason i really root for sora is because i have a close friend that wants him and i want her to be happy.
 

MisterMike

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
2,252
Geno
Chance: 10%

As much as it pains me for it to be the case, Geno does stand a small chance, but the mere fact he's currently been shot down for three games straight speaks volumes. Regardless of the suspicious amount of Square content, I don't know how they regard the usage of Geno in a playable context since he basically doesn't seem to matter to them anymore and is more Square's own throwaway child than anything.
That and it would be easier to just bring back the Mii costume, that's the more likely scenario.
Want 0%
If I could put a minus number, I would. The mere mention of his name has become annoying and frankly, I'm not about to back a character just because they've been requested for years either, that's a poor reason to support any character, and considering how Banjo was treated, Geno would never live up the hype. Maybe it's better he stay out.

Sora:
Chance: 1%

Sora's main obstacle isn't Square, it's not Disney and it's not Nintendo.. it's Sakurai. Sakurai's making sure to portray characters as closely as possible to their source material and to do that with Sora he needs Donald and Goofy to be with him; I don't think Sakurai is so dedicated to the craft that he'd willingly go into Disney's territory regardless of whether their arms are open or not and if there's no Disney, there's no Sora.
Want: 0%
Another name I'm tired of hearing. Honestly both of these characters tend to drown out more interesting, and some might even say better choices.
So don't mind me asking, but what characters do you want to see get in Smash?
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
"Geno's not relevant!" they claim, despite him being one of the most frequently discussed characters for Smash
Popularity does not equal relevance.
His popularity is exclusive to the Smash Bubble!" they claim which, even if that was true, isn't really a bad thing considering how many Smash fans there are out there. Currently Smash Ultimate has sold around 19.99 million copies worldwide. That's approximately 20 million potential Smash fans which, I hate to break it to you, is a pretty large number of people. And that's not even taking into consideration the amount of fans who have yet to even pick up the game. Not a very small bubble anymore, is it?
And how many of those 20 million would you say are part of the Smash bubble?
Also also, you can use the whole "They'll most likely be a Mii Costume!" point to dismiss literally any potential character you don't like, so it's not a very useful criticism.
But it is a stronger argument when dealing with one of the few characters that have been one in the past.
"There are plenty of other SquareEnix characters that are more likely than he is!" they claim, despite most of them having significantly less popularity or demand compared.
This presumes that popularity with the hardcore Smash crowd is the only thing that can work in a character's favor, when that's far from the truth. Tons of Square Enix characters have good reasons to consider likely, even as likely as Geno, despite him being more popular.
One of them would require a significant amount of design tweaking in order to hide their luscious thighs, as well as needing to find a way to make them unique compared to every other sword user already on the roster
I take it you haven't played NieR Automata if you think an android telekinetically wielding swords while simultaneously shooting with a floating turret needs any significant thought as to how she could be made unique.
And finally, we have the classic "It's Nintendo choosing the DLC, they wouldn't choose someone like Geno.", despite :ultridley::ultkrool::ultbanjokazooie: all being introduced as newcomers chosen by Nintendo.
Nintendo only chose Banjo, the other two are Sakurai.
While I'm tempted to simply write "EAT **** SORA**** LOLOLOLOL" and leave it at that, I'd be remiss to not try a little harder to explain my position. I'm gonna get this stuff out of the way first: I don't hate Sora or Kingdom Hearts whatsoever.
Yeah, sure.
Everything that Nintendo does with the character not only has to be approved by Disney, but everything that Disney approves has to be approved by Nomura and SquareEnix. When HMK got in contact with a Disney executive regarding who owns Sora, the executive (named Justin) went on to explain that Disney can't just use Sora as they please, and that they have to run everything by Nomura and SquareEnix. What this means is that, if Nintendo would like to use Sora in Smash, they'd have to deal with Disney, who'd have to get the OK from Nomura and SquareEnix before they can do anything with the character.

And that's just for Sora himself. Imagine having to also do this for Kairi, for Riku, for Sora's stage whatever that may be, for the music tracks, and whatever else they'd need to get him in the game in a satisfactory way. It's doable, don't get me wrong, and I'm certainly not professing to be an expert on these matters. But the way I see it, it's a much greater hassle trying to get Sora and Kingdom Hearts in Smash than, for instance, having to deal with the likes of Sony to get Kratos. Hell, going to SquareEnix to get Gex in the game would probably be less of a hassle.
The only entity they legally have to deal with is Disney, asking Nomura is a courtesy Disney has. Either way, asking for the approval of both the IP holder and the creative mind behind the character seems to be the standard, not really an additional hassle.

Comparing that to getting a character from Sony is absurd.
With Sora, I struggle to come up with much that separates him from other swordfighters, most notably Cloud.
Sora wields his blade nothing like Cloud or any other swordfighter. He wields it like a bat or a club. He also relies much more on magic, and on AoE spells in particular, plus he's a lot more combo and aerial oriented.
Now granted, I've never played a Kingdom Hearts game before
Yeah, I could tell.
There has been literally nothing in terms of insider speculation that points to Sora coming to Smash.
Which means nothing honestly because there isn't any credible insider talk about any character for FPV2.
Speaking of Steve, I nominate Steve
Steve is already due to be rated, so you don't have to nominate him.
the mere fact he's currently been shot down for three games straight speaks volumes.
Why?
Sakurai's making sure to portray characters as closely as possible to their source material and to do that with Sora he needs Donald and Goofy to be with him
Oh, he told you this? Fascinating.
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,675
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
Y'know, in another timeline Geno headed an original IP known as Legend of the Seven Stars, and his chances are that much higher because of it.
 

WeirdChillFever

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
6,592
Location
Somewhere Out There
Abstaining on chance like these characters are so specific in their flaws and assets that I cannot rate them properly.

Want-wise though, I have some thoughts.

Geno: 60%
Geno is.....a weird one want-wise (try saying that out loud five times!) because, like his chance, he shouldn’t have a want score. He’s irrelevant in a series filled to the brim with unique, iconic and requested characters....owned by a company with the same options.
Personal bias I don’t have. I haven’t played Super Mario RPG, but have devoured the games of his quote-unquote competition. In fact, in the past I have been very vocally against Geno with the mantra “anything Mario but Geno”
So what changed? Well, first of all, between Smash 4 and Ultimate, I did get my dose of “anything Mario”. Rosalina, Bowser Jr, Daisy and Piranha Plant all joined the battle, smacking out some of the frontrunners and then some. Daisy especially I personally invested a lot of time in supporting, so when she was revealed at the starting line of the marathon, I could get into a new role of spectator of speculation (with only Delz’ rallying cries for Lycanroc fueling my inner Britta)
Besides Paper Mario, Toad and Waluigi (with Toad sadly being a weirdly lost cause that should be in but isn’t for some reason), I don’t feel the urgency to support a logical frontrunner for the Mario series. It’s a series that can afford to be gobsmacking dumb with its next choice and I believe Geno is that choice.
Secondly, another sort of wipe-out occurred in the “old guard of Smash speculation.” Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo got in, meaning that “the characters left since Brawl” are diminishing. The completionist in me wants to see a new wave take the wheel. Plus, I want to see the possibilities that arise if the fanbase finds out that a fanbase essentially badgered a character into the game. It’s a unique piece of Smash history so even though he’s not a Mario character, or a good Square character, or even design-wise a good character. (Seriously, the moveset potential people talk about? It‘s laserz. And a serious chosen warrior isn’t exactly mind-boggling either). But regardless of that, I think he’s a good Smash character because he’s such a baffling phenomenon.

This is not exactly in the vein of “I want to fans to be happy”. I just think speculation would be given a fresh start if we didn’t have the same behemoths every cycle and if the Geno fans are satisfied, then that process of evolution is even more apparent, since most of the fans have waited so long. See it as a “I used to stones to destroy the stones” idea: If Geno gets in, it ends an era and gives way to new paranoid fossils. No more Geno discussions. Wouldn’t that be a relief? To speak of another Thanos quote: “A small price to pay for salvation”. Otherwise, if he doesn’t get in, all ten Geno fans will just come back strapped with prophet rhetoric as one of life’s inevitabilities.

Sora: 80%
Do I like him? Sure. Do I think he has moveset potential? Maybe. Probably. But I like the designs of the OG KH cast (and the deliciously ridiculous cycle of norting and taking hearts or whatever) enough to fetch a Spirit Board for, I appreciate the legacy of Kingdom Hearts enough to root for the fans and...

Okay I really like Donald Duck. Donald Duck is my favorite IP period, Donald Duck is one of my favorite fictional characters ever and Donald Duck is my dream pick for Smash Bros. Anyone that gets me closer to him is fair game. I would main Mii if Sora came with a Donald-zipper ridden mage costume and explode at the reveal with the intensity of a thousand Geno fans (so like, ten times the fanbase). Organisation XIII is fun and I can live with just the OCs but ANYTHING Donald is sure to make me combust in screams and tears so...yeah I’ll take my chance with the only anime boy of which Rex Xenoblade says “hey your clothes look goofy” (but like absolutely in a loving way we need more protagonists with goofy clothes)

Speaking of Donald Duck Mii Costume:

Concept: Non-Video Game Character as Mii Costume X5
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
Concept: A non-white/Asian human character x235
Tidus x205
Nate Adams x180
Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume x180
Moogle x175
[Rerate] Ezio x165
Shuichi Saihara x161

150 - 101

Alex Mason x140
[Rerate] Frisk x135
Concept: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon content x121
The Stretchers x120
Concept: Content from currently unreleased game (not Spirit Events) (as of May 17th 2020) x120
D.Va x115
Red (Angry Birds) x115
Zelda (BotW sequel) x110
Billy Hatcher x110
[Rerate] Prince of All Cosmos x105

100 - 51

[Rerate] Monster Hunter x100
Echo: Xion (Sora) x98
Sakura Shinguji x97
Klonoa x85
Concept: Shin Megami Tensei rep x85
Concept: Deltarune content x81
Concept: Darksiders rep x80
Sackboy x80
Riptor x80
Fulgore x79
Proto Man x75
Concept: More ATs as one new item x75
Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors) x75
Boss: Ender Dragon x73
The Terrarian x65
Concept: Rocket League rep x65
Echo: Dark Bowser (Bowser) x62
Concept: SNES-era Final Fantasy rep x55
Dwight Fairfield (Dead by Daylight) x55
Mii Costume: Jill Stingray x55
Concept: Second F-Zero rep x54

50 - 25

[Rerate] Concept: Boss Rush x50
Giygas x50
Echo: Zeraora (Lucario) x45
[Rerate] Jin Kazama x45
Gooigi x45
Dr. Goomba Tower x45
Amiya (Arknights) x45
Austin the Butler (Gardenscapes) x40
Stage: Bowser's Castle x40
Hades (Kid Icarus) x40
Echo: Lord Fredrik (King K. Rool) x39
The Bard (Wandersong) x35
Concept: Returning stages x31
Concept: Fighter Pass Volume 2 is half Nintendo and half third party x30
Urbosa x30
[Rerate] Monokuma x30
John Marston x30
Jason Frudnick & SOPHIA x30
Jin Sakai x28
Concept: Assist Trophies added in updates x27
Rival Pokémon Trainer x25
Concept: Dark Souls rep x25
Magolor x25
[Rerate] Maxwell x25

Under 25

Boss: Rayquaza x24
Echo (Olimar) x21
Yoshimitsu x20
Black Shadow x20
Neptune (Hyperdimension Neptunia) x20
Lora and Jin x20
Concept: Fighter Pass 2 gets delayed x20
Mii Costume: Alex Kidd x20
Zeraora x15
Wolf Link x15
Concept: FP2 character comes with an Echo Fighter x15
Cynthia x15
Ghirahim x15
Taranza x11
Gran/Djeeta x10
Otto Matic x10
The Avatar (Ultima) x10
Concept: Bravely Default rep x10
Medusa (Kid Icarus) x10
Vi (Bug Fables) x10
Concept: Rhythm Heaven rep x10
Tetra x10
Concept: Fortnite character x10
Chell x8
Mii Costume: Jacket x7
Concept: A Microsoft rep that isn't Steve or Master Chief x7
Concept: Darkstalkers rep x6
Sparky (Clash Royale) x5
Concept: Overwatch character x5
Asha (Wonder Boy) x5
Mii Costume: Hat Kid x5
Concept: Portal 2 rep x5
Breath of the Wild 2 Ganondorf x5
Tick (Brawl Stars) x5
King Graham x5
Cooking Mama x5
Jill (Drill Dozer) x5
Asuka (Senran Kagura) x5
Furret x5
Deku Scrub x5
Mii Costume: Edward Falcon x5
Concept: A LABO character x5
Concept: Bonus character x5
Concept: No AT promotions x5
[Rerate] Morrigan Aensland x5
[Rerate] Cadence x5
Octoling x5
Kazuya Mishima x5
Excitebiker x5
Zero (Mega Man) x5
Gil (Babylonian Castle Saga/The Tower of Druaga) x5
Concept: Generic Zora x3
Three Mage Sisters x2
Concept: A Pokémon Trainer who fights x2
Concept: A fighter who uses all kicks x2
[Rerate] Metal Sonic x2
Concept: Generic Goron x2
Kass x1

Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume passes Moogle and ties with Nate Adams for third place.

Prince of All Cosmos rolls over 100 noms.

Giygas reaches 50 noms and is now safe from the purge.

Y'know, in another timeline Geno headed an original IP known as Legend of the Seven Stars, and his chances are that much higher because of it.
Honestly? Given when SMRPG was made, this would put him in the same place as Crono, and without the Mario connection, Geno might not have amassed the popularity he did, so I'd say he's better off in this timeline.
 

Proceleon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
463
Location
Yoshi's Island
NNID
Proceleon
3DS FC
2423-2553-2839
Switch FC
SW-6226-7752-8603
So don't mind me asking, but what characters do you want to see get in Smash?
My sig can tell you that, but I'm more coming from a speculation point of view. I am sick to death of seeing Geno and Sora on every single wishlist and it's old. It tired and it's old. Frankly, I can't even want their fans to get the satisfaction of having them in, I am THAT fed up with seeing them everywhere, on every thread, on every speculation chat, on every Top 10 Characters For Smash video, everywhere. I wish people picked characters they actually wanted rather than supporting bandwagons just for the sake of it.
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,675
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
My sig can tell you that, but I'm more coming from a speculation point of view. I am sick to death of seeing Geno and Sora on every single wishlist and it's old. It tired and it's old. Frankly, I can't even want their fans to get the satisfaction of having them in, I am THAT fed up with seeing them everywhere, on every thread, on every speculation chat, on every Top 10 Characters For Smash video, everywhere. I wish people picked characters they actually wanted rather than supporting bandwagons just for the sake of it.
...Or maybe a lot of people just legitimately want those characters?
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,382
Abstain. Don't have any opinions on these two. Although if I'm being honest, I wouldn't be surprised if they brought back Geno's Mii costume.

Nominations: Echo: Zeraora (Lucario) x5
 
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