Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

[GoodGrief741]

I forgot to nominate yesterday like a total dumbass. Ah well.

Spoiler: Nominations post-FE spear user pre-Hanafuda character

No More Stages x244
Linkle x227
Fjorm (Fire Emblem) x225
Concept: Metroidvania-like Adventure Mode x207
Louie x200
Rick/Coo/Kine x197
DeMille x193

200 - 151

Balloon Fighter x192
Concept: More than five unique newcomers (excl. Ridley/Daisy/Inkling) x185
Papyrus x180
Reimu Hakurei x170
Dovahkiin x165
Tsubasa Oribe x160
Concept: All-Star Versus x158
Snip & Clip (Snipperclips) x155
Fire Emblem Three Houses Protagonist x155
Concept: Octopath Traveller Character x151

150 - 101

Item: Beast Ball x150
Concept: Punch Out Newcomer x145
Susie Haltmann x134
Barbara the Bat x132
Project Zero/Fatal Frame Protagonist x132
Stage: Poke Floats x130
2B x126
Edelgard x125
Guzma (Pokémon) x120
Klonoa x117
Neptune (Hyperdimension Neptunia) x115
Concept: Pikmin Newcomer x115
Zeraora (Pokemon) x115
Pokemon Trainer (Gen 2) x114
Gooey x110
Raiden (Metal Gear) x110
Black Knight as a boss character x105
Kyo Kusanagi x105
Daroach x104
Tora & Poppi x102

100 - 51

Concept: Ken Masters alt Costume for Ryu x96
Viewtiful Joe x95
Concept: Only 4-6 newcomers for base roster x90
Silvally x84
Chorus Kids x77
Sans as a boss character x77
Yu Narakumi x76
Frank West x75
Veronica x73
9-Volt x68
Xurkitree (Pokémon) x68
Item: Breidablik x65
Toon Zelda x65
Endou Mamoru x62
Concept: Historical Character x60
Slime x58
Concept: Shin Megami Tensei Character x56
Leo (Fire Emblem) x55
The Prince (Katamari) x55
Concept: Wars Characters x53
Takumi (Fire Emblem) x51

50 - 25

Rhythm Girl x50
Concept: Cross series Echoes x50
[Rerate] Spyro x45
Donbe and Hikari (Shin Onigashima) x44
Earthworm Jim x49
Concept: Unique newcomer with low support (less than 20 supporters on Smashboards) x40
Concept: Xenoblade newcomer x40
Adeleine x39
Stage: Ultra Space x35
Assist Trophy: Chun-Li x35
Stage: Melemele Island x35
[Rerate] Steve? x33
Concept: DLC character pass x30
Box Theory x29
Quote x26
Dixie Kong & Kiddy Kong x25
Blacephalon (Pokemon) x25
Master Chief x25

Under 25

Saki Amamiya x22
Concept: Break the Targets & Board the Platforms stage builder x20
[Rerate] Concept: Zelda newcomer x20
[Rerate] Sora x20
Merric (Fire Emblem) x20
Joker (Persona) x19
Sub-Zero x17
Concept: Modern Kirby Stage (Post Kirby Air Ride) x15
Concept: Custom Moves return x15
Concept: Custom Alternate Colors x15
Alexandra Roivas x15
Kat & Ana x15
[Rerate] Cranky Kong x15
Big Boss x15
Concept: Character alternate costume DLC x15
[Rerate] Excitebiker x11
Ryuhi (Flying Dragon) x10
Metal Sonic x10
Dr. Lobe (Big Brain Academy) x10
Cross (Xenoblade Chronicles X) x10
Break the Targets x10
Protector (Etrian Odyssey) x10
Concept: Dragon Quest content x10
Bub & Bob x10
Conker x10
Blog Theory x9
Volleyball Girl (NES Volleyball) x8
Stage Builder x8
[Rerate] Gengar x7
[Rerate] Porky Minch x7
Zeke (Xenoblade 2) x6
Stage: Gyromite Stage x5
Nia (Hyrule Warriors) x5
Concept: Valve Newcomer x5
Stage: SR388 x5
Concept: Playable Indie Character x5
Blaze the Cat x5
Alm x5
[Rerate] Octoling x5
Yandere Chan (Yandere Simulator) x5
Concept: Team Rocket as a Pokémon Trainer Echo x5
Cooking Mama x5
Playable Master Hand x5
Pam (Stardew Valley) x5
Captain Syrup x5
Concept: Return of Palutena’s Guidance/Codec Calls x5
Concept: Free DLC characters x5
Jin (Xenoblade) x5
Concept: Assist Trophy DLC x5
[Rerate] Black Shadow x5
Doshin the Giant x5
Stage: Mute City Melee x5
[Rerate] Lloyd Irving x5
[Rerate] Ryu Hayabusa x5
Bartz Klauser x5
Stage: Tetris x5
Concept: Danganronpa music x5
Elite Beat Agents x5
Stage: Yoshi’s Crafted World x5
King Hippo x4
[Rerate] Ayumi Tachibana x4
Concept: New Yoshi item x4
Black Mage x4
Stanley the Bugman x3
Concept: WarioWare newcomer x2
Concept: F-Zero newcomer x2
Diskun x1
Item: Wumpa Fruit x1
Birdo x1
Concept: Any Minecraft representation x1
Goomba x1

Black Knight as a boss character and Kyo Kusanagi break past 100 nominations.

The Prince rolls over 50 noms.

Quote joins the over 25 group.

We have a new stage today: Yoshi’s Crafted World, with 5 nominations.

 

[DaUsername]

Abstaining, I'll leave this one to the professionals.
Rowlet prediction: 10%
Noms: Steve x5

 

[Tew]

In every Smash Bros. game since Melee, there has been a “surprise” character that gets added in the game. Those characters are Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B, and Duck Hunt. All of them share one thing in common, representing an older, but significant part of Nintendo’s history. Mr. Game & Watch represents one of Nintendo’s first big successes in the video game market with the line of LCD handheld game devices they made in the 1980s. R.O.B. represents the rise of the video games in the U.S. thanks to Nintendo marketing the Robotic Operating Buddy along the NES as a “novel, advanced” toy. Duck Hunt represents the big success of the NES Zapper, whose game was widely known for the iconic laughing dog and being an pack-in alongside Super Mario Bros. for NES bundles. I like to call these types of newcomers as “historical surprises”. These kinds of characters were confirmed to exist with bits of the project plan publicly shown in Sakurai's book.

With these three characters representing a major portion of NIntendo’s older history, what else is there left to add for historical surprises? After Duck Hunt’s addition in Smash 4, it might be very difficult for Sakurai to find historical candidates that would match and represent the same calibur of impact as Duck Hunt, R.O.B., and Game & Watch. There are choices that many Smash fans previously brought up in pre-Smash 4 speculation such as Sheriff, Virtual Boy character, and Nester. But, there are problems with them.

Sheriff does represent Nintendo’s first video game character, but his game never had the same degree of impact in the video game industry as R.O.B. and Duck Hunt. A Virtual Boy character represents Nintendo’s biggest failure in history, which I highly doubt Sakurai would want to add. Nester, while having the same impact as Duck Hunt and R.O.B. with the magazine of Nintendo Power, is not as globally recognized in Japan/Europe for Sakurai to consider it. In a process of elimination, the only newcomer choice left that I think Sakurai would fill in for the historical surprise role would be a character representing Nintendo’s beginning, Hanafuda.

Hanafuda (Translated as “flower cards”) are Japanese playing cards used to play a multitude of games like Koi Koi and Go-Stop. This was the very first product manufactured by Nintendo way back in 1889. Before the debut of Hanafuda, many kinds of playing cards were banned in Japan due to the Western influences of Japanese card games and the surge of Christian missionaries from Europe.

For the Hanafuda creator, Fusajiro Yamauchi, to get around the card problem, he would have to replace the numbers in his cards with Japanese painted art that represented the twelve months of the year. The Japanese government banned Hanafuda eventually. But around the late 1800s, playing cards were no longer banned. Yamauchi could finally create a legal business to sell his Hanafuda products, creating a new company, Nintendo Koppai (The original name of Nintendo before it was simplified decades later.)

The Hanafuda cards by Nintendo grew to become a huge hit in Japan, which led to partnerships with Disney and developing other classic Japanese/Western card games for their business. The experience Nintendo had with selling Hanafuda eventually led them forming a VERY successful business in toys, and eventually producing a business for video games that Nintendo is globally known for today.

With Hanafuda playing a MAJOR key role in Nintendo’s history, Sakurai might consider the idea of creating an original character heavily influenced by Hanafuda for the next historical surprise newcomer. Hanafuda might not be very video game related as G&W, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt, but I feel that its significant importance to Nintendo would be enough for Sakurai to be comfortable with the idea. With Sakurai going all in many extents of Nintendo history in all sorts of content to represent even the most obscure Nintendo franchises, it would not surprise me if Sakurai thought of a Hanafuda character for Ultimate. I do not think it would be difficult for Sakurai to come up with the idea. I think he will go an extra mile, thinking outside the box, going beyond Nintendo's video game history to find the appropriate "surprise" addition for this game.

So, how can you form a character out of playing cards? There are MANY possible solutions to this:

1. Using Napoleon from Nintendo’s most famous Hanafuda deck.

With the Daitouryou deck featuring Napoleon being the most popular Hanafuda variant, Sakurai could use this historical figure as the basis for the Hanafuda character.

2. Using the tengu from Nintendo's second most popular Hanafuda's deck.

Although this variant of the Hanafuda deck is not as popular as the Napoleon one, the tengu has one advantage that Napoleon does not have. One, tengus being more significant to the origin of Nintendo and Hanafuda in general. Two, the tengu’s Japanese cultural relations that would fit in more than a French emperor using Japanese cards for battle.

3. Going more out-there and giving the Hanafuda deck limbs for movement.

This solution is a very unlikely scenario, but giving a Hanafuda deck arms and legs would better fit in Smash with the Hanafuda character having a crazy wacky design.

What would be the moveset theme and playstyle for a Hanafuda character be? To get a general grasp of the idea I will explain it in a Smash 4 project proposal way:

A Hanafuda character would be a very unique fighter with it utilizing hanafuda cards to summon environmental objects, tools, and animals from the card art as the primary form of attacking. Its play-style would involve long-range summoning attacks to keep opponents at bay. The kind of fighter a Hanafuda character could become with his card abilities and the unique Japanese cultural influence that gives Hanafuda distinction would be enough for Sakurai to craft up a fighter based on the oldest Nintendo product in same way he crafted up a character and moveset for Mr. Game and Watch in Melee.

Spoiler: Moveset for Hanafuda

(Major credit and props to Pacack for creating this moveset)

Entrance Animation: General outline of character appears first, followed by the outline of the details, ending with Hanafuda being painted in. (Referencing that all of the hanafuda cards were originally handcrafted by painting onto mulberry tree bark) OR A hanafuda card box drops from the sky and opens to release a Hanafuda character.

Properties: Height is roughly between Charizard’s and Samus’ heights. About as wide as Snake or Link at the widest point. Is somewhat lighter than Robin.

Jab Combo: Hits with pine branch for small damage. Only an AA combo, rather than an AAA combo. Does approximately 4% damage for the first hit and 6% for the second. (Based off of basic pine cards from the December suit, only a double combo because there are only two commons in said suit)

Side-Tilt: Kicks the ground and sends a flurry of maple leaves forward. Has good range and may trip the opponent. Does only 1% damage per leaf, but there are several leaves. Does not have the best knockback. (Based off of the October Maple leaf commons)

Up-Tilt: Waves some bush clover branches in a sweeping motion over his head (from front to back). Decen knockback that can be used for combos. Does about 9% damage. (Based off of the July bush clover commons)

Down-Tilt: Causes a small peony bush to sprout directly in front of Hanafuda (butterflies fly out from it as well, but do not do damage or interact with the opponent). Sends opponents almost directly upwards. Does approximately 11% damage and good knockback, but has some frame lag. (Based off of the June peony commons)

Dash Attack: Pulls out a chrysanthemum bouquet and swings it as he dashes (Based off of the September chrysanthemums)

Up Smash: Thrusts an umbrella into the air and opens it (as it opens, a frog comes out for purely for humor’s sake). Does good damage and knockback, but has some beginning lag. (Based off of Rain Man’s umbrella and frog)

Side Smash: Swings a fairly bulky paulownia branch forward at the opponent. Heavy damage and knockback. (Based off of the January paulownias)

Down Smash: Makes tall susuki grass sprout from the ground on one side of him and a small willow tree on the other. The grass sends opponents diagonally up and away from Hanafuda, while the willow simply hits them upwards. (Based off of the susuki grass and willow common cards)

Neutral Aerial: Hanafuda spins around (somewhat like Zelda's or Ness' nairs) in the air and irises fly out of his sleeves. Poor knockback and decent damage, but good range. (Based off of the May irises)

Forward Aerial: Swings a large plain ribbon in front of him in an arch shape. It can hit easily, but is not very powerful. (Based off of the ribbon cards)

Back Aerial: Snaps a large plain ribbon behind him like a whip. Hits very hard and with good range, but is extremely difficult to sweetspot. (Based off of the ribbon cards)

Up Aerial: Butterflies fly out from out of Hanafuda’s sleeves and go straight upwards. They are hard to sweetspot, but they provide a decent killing move. Does only 3% damage and minimal knockback when not sweetspotted, but does good damage with great knockback when they do.

Down Aerial: Hits whatever is in front of him with a plank from an eight plank bridge. Has spiking properties. (Based off of the May “animal” card)

Neutral Special: Throws poetry sake cup at the opponent. Does surprisingly high damage, but is very small and difficult to hit opponents with. (Based off of the September poetry sake cup “animal” wildcard)

Side Special: Summons a boar, deer, and butterflies that run quickly as a herd across the stage until they disappears. High damage and knockback, but can be easily avoided, as they will only run straight. (Based off of the July, October, and June animal cards and Ino-Shika-Cho group.)

Up Special: Summons multiple types of birds that fly sporadically upwards and grabs onto a crane that lifts Hanafuda about as efficiently as Pit’s up special. Damage done to opponents depends on the birds that hit them. (Based off of the various animal cards of January, February, April, August, and November.)

Down Special: Holds up the jinmaku (camp curtain) to absorb enemy projectiles. Does not deflect or heal the user. (based off of the March “bright” card)

Grab: Wisteria vines shoot out from Hanafuda's sleeves and ensnare the opponent. (based off of the wisteria cards)

Grab-Pummel: The vines repeatedly hit the opponent.

Forward Throw: Hanafuda throws the opponent with the vines and whips them quickly.

Back Throw: Hanafuda throws the opponent over his shoulder.

Up Throw: Hanafuda throws his opponent directly over his head and smacks him with the blue ribbon. (Reference to the blue ribbons)

Down Throw: Hanafuda releases his opponent and slaps them into the ground with the poetry ribbon. (Reference to the red poetry ribbons)

Final Smash: Summons Chinese Phoenix which attacks the entire stage with fire. The stage’s background becomes red with a completely white circle as the moon as this is happening. (Reference to the August and December Bright cards)

The only competition a Hanafuda character would have to face for a historical surprise addition would be a character based on Nintendo toys made in the 1960s. Of all the potential candidates that represent an integral part of Nintendo’s long history, a 1960s toy character makes the most sense after Hanafuda’s addition. Although, without a definitive mascot or character to represent these toys, creating a character out of 1960s toys might be harder for Sakurai to imagine and he might go with Hanafuda instead. Ultimately, who he chooses as the historical surprise for Smash will depend on what Sakurai sees as having more playful gameplay potential. Both have great potential to me, but Sakurai might have a different perspective otherwise.

With a 1960’s toys character being potential competition, I say a Hanafuda character’s chances are 50/50. I believe there will be a “historical surprise” in this Smash, and the odds of Sakurai creating a character out of Hanafuda are way better now with G&W, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt no longer being major competition. The Hanafuda cards Nintendo made way back are an integral part of the company’s history. I feel such historical importance will be represented via character by Sakurai. With Hanafuda being distinct culturally and providing gameplay potential as a card summoner, I feel confident in banking on a Hanafuda character for Smash Ultimate. I do not believe the potential possibility of Smash Ultimate having a smaller newcomer pool than Smash 4's base newcomers will prevent his inclusion. It is hard for me to imagine Sakurai getting rid of historical surprises at this point with the distinct gameplay potential these kinds of additions bring to Smash's roster. I boldly state this, even in the current extremely pessimistic state of Smash speculation.

(I hope this Quote is a bit smaller in the post than now in the Editor, I am not too familiar with how Smashboards works)
First of all, respect to BluePikmin11 for that Long, interesting post. Seems like you put in a lot of work and that you waited for that day to come (Considering you posted this only 6 minutes after the "day" started).
Thanks to that, I also don´t have to make much Research myself ^^".

Hanafuda Character:

Chances: 25%
Though I would like to add, that Nintendo Labo increases the chances for a Hanafuda Character in my opinion. Nintendo Labo is likely inspired by the Nintendo Paper Models from 1974 (http://blog.beforemario.com/2012/05/nintendo-paper-model-series-overview.html). Showing that Nintendo likes to look back at their previous ideas and use them in a modern way. Furthermore Nintendo still makes Hanafuda cards to this day (Including a Special Mario Edition).
I also agree that it is probably the most likely "historical surprise" (or as I simply call it "wtf") character. And while the Base Roster might not have that many more Newcomers, there is Always a Chance for DLC.

Want: 30%
20% because, while I am not really interested in it´s design or history, I like "Tricky Tool" Characters, like Link, Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt and Co, and a Hanafuda Character would likely be one of them. Also I´d like to see how Sakurai would make a moveset out of it. (Right now I would prefer it over the 2 most likely Newcomers, Incineroar and Ken)
And additionally 10% for those nice moveset ideas from BluePikmin11 and Pacack
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Nomination:
Fjorm: 5x
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

I wonder how many people who played with Hanafuda cards back when they were still produced and relevant are still even alive today.

 

[Pacack]

I wonder how many people who played with Hanafuda cards back when they were still produced and relevant are still even alive today.

Nintendo's higher-ups still consider hanafuda relevant. Not only do they still produce hanafuda cards, they include a section on them in their company handbook.

 

[RealPokeFan11]

Though Hanafuda has ZERO chance of happening, I do commend BluePikmin11 for his creativity in his very long post about his idea

 

[GoodGrief741]

Hanafuda time

Abstaining from chance. As is the nature of the surprise character, it makes no sense to try to guess who it will be. However, I think Sheriff and Diskun are likelier, if only due to being more related to video games. I also wonder if we’ll have a surprise or historical rep, just like I wonder if we’ll get a retro rep or a Pokémon rep.

Want: 60%
I wouldn’t mind him, that’s for sure. The history of Nintendo is always fascinating to me.

Nominations: Saki Amamiya X5

 

[Pacack]

However, I think Sheriff and Diskun are likelier, if only due to being more related to video games.

Oh, it's worth noting that Sheriff has appeared as an assist trophy already.

 

[Sari]

Hanafuda Character

Chance: 5%
Unlike all of the other characters we have, it has nothing to do with videogames as Hanafuda cards were a thing way before Nintendo existed. Yes I know R.O.B. is technically a peripheral but it was created to go alongside the NES so I think it still counts as a videogame rep. While I know there is no specific rule saying that non-videogames aren't allowed in Smash, I just can't see it happening. This is the type of thing you’d expect as an assist trophy not as an actual character.

Also I don't think we'll be getting a retro rep at all due to the limited roster spots. Even if we were, the Hanafuda rep has to compete with more popular picks such as Excite Biker, Mach Rider, and Balloon Fighter, all of which were considered for Melee by Sakurai and are generally more well-known. Balloon Fighter may also have a big advantage as a way to pay tribute to Iwata whose death was still fairly recent at the time of roster planning (not to mention it already has a stage).

Want: Abstain
Could be interesting but I'm not too into retro reps like G&W and Duck Hunt in general so I won't comment. That said I think BluePikmin11 did a great job supporting Hanafuda's inclusion.

Nominations: Kyo Kusanagi x5

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Hanafuda want: 0%

I don't like WTF reps in general. I also think the main purpose of adding historical reps is to revitalize a franchise. Hanafuda doesn't need revitalized. Adding a hanafuda character would be creating a character from whole cloth, when the alternative is adding a video game character that more people want. What's the point here? I don't care how important **** is to Nintendo's business. I care about how popular characters are. Maybe we should have a pachinko game as a Konami rep. He can shoot ball bearings at people and have old men carry him around.

Nominations:

Merric x5

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Want: 98%

I'll just put this here to enhance the overall want score. Daitoryo is my third most wanted, after all.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Why do we resort to assuming that a surprise character gets chosen purely for the sake of a surprise when I gave multiple valid reasons that could lead to a Hanafuda character’s inclusion? Why do we resort to talking down on Hanafuda as if it was just a minor pebble on the beach, as if it did not matter to Nintendo history?

These are just plain bad arguments to me when the process of Sakurai choosing a “surprise” character likely goes far more than the “sake of it”. It is nothing but short-sighted logic to me.

Because we are looking at the arguments differently. Let me look at your points...

In every Smash Bros. game since Melee, there has been a “surprise” character that gets added in the game. Those characters are Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B, and Duck Hunt. All of them share one thing in common, representing an older, but significant part of Nintendo’s history. Mr. Game & Watch represents one of Nintendo’s first big successes in the video game market with the line of LCD handheld game devices they made in the 1980s. R.O.B. represents the rise of the video games in the U.S. thanks to Nintendo marketing the Robotic Operating Buddy along the NES as a “novel, advanced” toy. Duck Hunt represents the big success of the NES Zapper, whose game was widely known for the iconic laughing dog and being an pack-in alongside Super Mario Bros. for NES bundles.

We have confirmation that Sakurai does like adding surprises on the roster. And not much else from that. However...

1) we don't know if this pattern will hold, considering his statements this time about focusing on bringing back newcomers which will reduce the potential number of newcomers. When I read "They are this game's surprise character," I think something along the lines of "This is going to be my expendable character, so if I have other priorities I'll discard it." Maybe he would favor the surprise, but I don't know. But after Ridley and K.Rool were added, and he specifically gave the reasoning as "fan requests," it seems more fan-driven than 'lol suprises!'

2) GnW, ROB, and DHD all also have one more thing in common, and its a big one. They're all involving video games. We have yet to see any representation of Nintendo's pre-video game history in Smash. I cannot help but see a gigantic leap from "Sakurai likes putting in surprises" and "Surprise characters are from retro Nintendo video games" to "A literal card deck represents Nintendo's history best and is the next obvious choice."

Sheriff does represent Nintendo’s first video game character, but his game never had the same degree of impact in the video game industry as R.O.B. and Duck Hunt. A Virtual Boy character represents Nintendo’s biggest failure in history, which I highly doubt Sakurai would want to add. Nester, while having the same impact as Duck Hunt and R.O.B. with the magazine of Nintendo Power, is not as globally recognized in Japan/Europe for Sakurai to consider it. In a process of elimination, the only newcomer choice left that I think Sakurai would fill in for the historical surprise role would be a character representing Nintendo’s beginning, Hanafuda.

Again, let's look. Sheriff was the first character, but nobody really knows the character. He's still represented in Smash though with the original sprite form. Virtual Boy, fine, nobody really knows it. Nester? Not a video game character, but at least there's a connection. Still, extremely obscure and horribly unlikely. But I need to stop you there - you admit Nester is a poor choice since he's not globally recognized, but Hanafuda is exempt from that evidently? Considering most people here have never heard of it before, it seems that Hanafuda shares obscurity outside Japan. While we do know Sakurai has favored Japanese characters much more highly than Western characters(which helped Marth/Roy in Melee and Lucas in Brawl), we also know that Takamaru received an assist because of his obscurity outside Japan - which happened more recently than the other two. as Sakurai became more aware of the world's fanbases. He's also acknowledged the western fanbases specifically in his reasoning for adding Ridley and Dark Samus.

I don't think anyone will deny that Hanafuda was relevant to Nintendo's history. We mainly take issue with the fact that no representation thus far is for anything outside of video games. If we had gotten some Nintendo toys from the 50s and 60s as items, then it might be easier to make that jump. But for now, 'Nintendo History' doesn't seem to look further back than gameplay on CRT screens. With Hanafuda much earlier than that, we naturally are dismissive.

 

[Erimir]

Hanafuda

This would make sense as an AT, or a trophy, but Smash Bros is about video games and a playing card illustration as a playable character doesn't make a lot of sense. We don't even have an Ultra Hand item or trophy. We don't have any sort of hanafuda reference in Smash as of yet. If there were any references to Nintendo toys (that aren't video game related), I might be persuaded this was a possibility. As it is, it would be a pure WTF move with no precedent. Way more WTF than Mr. Game & Watch or Wii Fit Trainer.

Hanafuda chance: 0%
Hanafuda want: 0%

 

[GoodGrief741]

Oh, it's worth noting that Sheriff has appeared as an assist trophy already.

Thanks, couldn’t remember if he had.

Hanafuda want: 0%

I don't like WTF reps in general. I also think the main purpose of adding historical reps is to revitalize a franchise. Hanafuda doesn't need revitalized. Adding a hanafuda character would be creating a character from whole cloth, when the alternative is adding a video game character that more people want. What's the point here? I don't care how important **** is to Nintendo's business. I care about how popular characters are. Maybe we should have a pachinko game as a Konami rep. He can shoot ball bearings at people and have old men carry him around.

Nominations:

Merric x5

How was the purpose behind adding Game & Watch, R.O.B., or Duck Hunt to revitalize a franchise?

 

[Ridrool64]

Hanafuda character: 1% chance. The exception to the rule. Not a video game at all, but it's one of the big N's properties, so...

Hanafuda want: Abstain due to lack of knowledge.

Nominations: Concept - Unique Puzzle Game Rep x 4, Gooey x 1

 

[Sid-cada]

Hanafuda Character

Chance - 0.05% - Ultimate seems to be the game most likely to buck trends, and at this point we don't even know if any retro will be added. Even then, within the retro category, he faces competition from other retros. Given that thus far the roster has more-or-less been pure fan service, with the most out-there choice being Isabelle, I expect that even if we got a reto, it would be one chosen due to popularity as well, similar to how Pit was chosen in Brawl.

Want - 35% - While I'm not against Hanafuda representation per-say, I do not feel like it has to be though a character. Give it a stage, an assist trophy, an item, etc. I feel they would be better suited there, as space is a bit tight this time around.


Nominations

Reimu Hakurei X5

 

[Cabbagehead]

Hanafuda Character:

Chance: 10%
Want: 30%

To keep myself from rambling too much, I suppose I'll structure this in the "pros/cons" way that I did with Shantae.

Pros:
- A representation of Nintendo's origins. If a character based on a non-video game element of Nintendo's past were to get in, I'm sure it would be based on Hanafuda. Well, that or Ultra Hand.
- Sakurai has been known to add characters from left field in the past. Mr. Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Pit, Duck Hunt, R.O.B., and (depending on who you ask) Wii Fit Trainer were all pretty left field. A Hanafuda-based character would fit right in.

Cons:
- There isn't a precedent for Sakurai to implement Nintendo's pre-gaming past into Smash. Sure, it could happen, but we won't know if that idea's in the cards until we see it in action (or Sakurai tells us).
- Ultimate seems to be geared more towards fan demand. On this front, I can only imagine Hanafuda is at a disadvantage, as is any "surprise" character.
- Hanafuda is a region-specific concept, and Sakurai typically prefers to steer clear of Japan-exclusive characters for playability. Takamaru knows this better than anyone.

I can't say that I'd be overjoyed to see a Hanafuda character in Smash. There are plenty of overlooked retro and dormant IPs that would make people happy and equally surprise fans without feeling forced, in my opinion. I'd prefer to see some of those characters get the breath of life over Hanafuda cards. That being said, I am a sucker for obscure Nintendo history, so part of me would simultaneously think it's pretty cool.

 

[WaddleMatt]

Hanafuda character:

Chance: 2%

With limited roster space and unrecognizability it has to be low, yes it is where Nintendo started but that is nowhere near enough.

Want: 20%

It is where Nintendo started as I said, so it is quite important to their history but it would feel out of place in my opinion.

Rowlet Prediction: 5%
Nominations: Rhythm Girl x5

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Thanks, couldn’t remember if he had.


How was the purpose behind adding Game & Watch, R.O.B., or Duck Hunt to revitalize a franchise?

Maybe I should have said that I don't care about historical/retro characters unless the point is to revitalize them.

 

[aarchak]

Hanafuda Character

Chance: 0%
I don't see it happening because how would you turn this into a playable character? Sure, a trophy sounds reasonable, maybe even an item, but not a fighter. These cards aren't even characters, what do you do with them?
Abstaining from want today on account of "I didn't know anything about this until today, so I don't have an opinion yet".

Nominations
Character alternate costume DLC x5

 

[BluePikmin11]

Because we are looking at the arguments differently. Let me look at your points...


We have confirmation that Sakurai does like adding surprises on the roster. And not much else from that. However...

1) we don't know if this pattern will hold, considering his statements this time about focusing on bringing back newcomers which will reduce the potential number of newcomers. When I read "They are this game's surprise character," I think something along the lines of "This is going to be my expendable character, so if I have other priorities I'll discard it." Maybe he would favor the surprise, but I don't know. But after Ridley and K.Rool were added, and he specifically gave the reasoning as "fan requests," it seems more fan-driven than 'lol suprises!'

I do not think he sees surprises in an expendable way. I think he would favor the surprise characters more because these characters offer very distinct moveset potential that other notable Nintendo characters normally do not have to be higher priority for development. Even with the number of unique newcomers revealed being ballot requests and the months we have remaining, I feel it is too early to firmly & safely say that most choices for Ultimate depend on the ballot, especially when there are characters coming like Inkling and a Pokemon newcomer that suggest that Sakurai still has his personal newcomer picks for this game.

2) GnW, ROB, and DHD all also have one more thing in common, and its a big one. They're all involving video games. We have yet to see any representation of Nintendo's pre-video game history in Smash. I cannot help but see a gigantic leap from "Sakurai likes putting in surprises" and "Surprise characters are from retro Nintendo video games" to "A literal card deck represents Nintendo's history best and is the next obvious choice."

It is true that there has not been much precedent to representing non-video game stuff, but that does no mean it cannot happen. I do not see Hanafuda as a gigantic leap when it comes to choosing "surprises". When considering the theme each "surprise" addition carries in each Smash game and the possible mindset of Sakurai seeing Smash Ultimate as a Nintendo all-stars game, it would be a naturally transitional thought to think of a Hanafuda character next. The leap is rather small, moving from focusing on Nintendo's gaming history to Nintendo's history in general.

I have similar transitional thoughts when it comes to other characters like old Nintendo characters from established franchises, which led me to predict K. Rool and guess him correctly because of Sakurai's thoughts on Geno (despite the fact the puppet is an old character from one Mario spin-off). Even for characters I am not predicting, I think of possible transitions like Heihachi and how Ryu could be the groundwork to finally developing Heihachi in Smash Ultimate with proper Tekken mechanics. And with Sora too, with Sakurai's negotiation with Nomura for Cloud that could lead to a negotiation for Sora in Ultimate. I still think about the possible transition and growth of Sakurai from limiting third-parties in Brawl to representing all the big Japanese gaming icons as playable characters in Ultimate.

I think it is important to think about what Sakurai could change his mind about and transition to when speculating. Sakurai as a developer/director of Smash Bros can re-visit and come up with ideas on his own to continue to build-up and make his newcomer line-up refreshing/interesting for each Smash iteration. He sorta says this in a way, during the interview conducted about the Cloud DLC in Smash 4, which could still hold true for Ultimate's project plan:

Nomura: Whether it’s crazy or not, you’ve assembled quite a number of characters.

Sakurai: Honestly, when we revealed Solid Snake for Brawl, I thought, “There’s no way we’ll be able to stage a bigger surprise than this.” But, as a creator, you just keep making more while trying to surprise and delight your audience as much as possible.

Nomura: The element of surprise is very important.

It is difficult for me really see Sakurai getting rid of these surprise additions anytime soon, even with the amount of content and veterans returning that could possibly limit the development of 15+ unique newcomers as the previous two Smash installments, especially with what these "surprise" characters can offer gameplay-wise. It is not as simple of a decision as "lol there are no more historical video game characters to represent, I covered all the bases and my thought process is over and will simply skip over surprise additions and move on just like that". That is why I think downplaying the real possibility of Hanafuda simply because it is not video game related is a terrible idea.

Again, let's look. Sheriff was the first character, but nobody really knows the character. He's still represented in Smash though with the original sprite form. Virtual Boy, fine, nobody really knows it. Nester? Not a video game character, but at least there's a connection. Still, extremely obscure and horribly unlikely. But I need to stop you there - you admit Nester is a poor choice since he's not globally recognized, but Hanafuda is exempt from that evidently? Considering most people here have never heard of it before, it seems that Hanafuda shares obscurity outside Japan. While we do know Sakurai has favored Japanese characters much more highly than Western characters(which helped Marth/Roy in Melee and Lucas in Brawl), we also know that Takamaru received an assist because of his obscurity outside Japan - which happened more recently than the other two. as Sakurai became more aware of the world's fanbases. He's also acknowledged the western fanbases specifically in his reasoning for adding Ridley and Dark Samus.

Naturally, I think historical significance to the company's history could easily make up for the obscure status of Hanafuda cards outside Japan, unlike Nester, Virtual Boy, and Sheriff, whose positive prominence in Nintendo history is a small pebble in comparison.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I do not think he sees surprises in an expendable way. I think he would favor the surprise characters more because these characters offer very distinct moveset potential that other notable Nintendo characters normally do not have to be higher priority for development. Even with the number of unique newcomers revealed being ballot requests and the months we have remaining, I feel it is too early to firmly & safely say that most choices for Ultimate depend on the ballot, especially when there are characters coming like Inkling and a Pokemon newcomer that suggest that Sakurai still has his personal newcomer picks for this game.


It is true that there has not been much precedent to representing non-video game stuff, but that does no mean it cannot happen. I do not see Hanafuda as a gigantic leap when it comes to choosing "surprises". When considering the theme each "surprise" addition carries in each Smash game and the possible mindset of Sakurai seeing Smash Ultimate as a Nintendo all-stars game, it would be a naturally transitional thought to think of a Hanafuda character next. The leap is rather small, moving from focusing on Nintendo's gaming history to Nintendo's history in general.

I have similar transitional thoughts when it comes to other characters like old Nintendo characters from established franchises, which led me to predict K. Rool and guess him correctly because of Sakurai's thoughts on Geno (despite the fact the puppet is an old character from one Mario spin-off). Even for characters I am not predicting, I think of possible transitions like Heihachi and how Ryu could be the groundwork to finally developing Heihachi in Smash Ultimate with proper Tekken mechanics. And with Sora too, with Sakurai's negotiation with Nomura for Cloud that could lead to a negotiation for Sora in Ultimate. I still think about the possible transition and growth of Sakurai from limiting third-parties in Brawl to representing all the big Japanese gaming icons as playable characters in Ultimate.

I think it is important to think about what Sakurai could change his mind about and transition to when speculating. Sakurai as a developer/director of Smash Bros can re-visit and come up with ideas on his own to continue to build-up and make his newcomer line-up refreshing/interesting for each Smash iteration. He sorta says this in a way, during the interview conducted about the Cloud DLC in Smash 4, which could still hold true for Ultimate's project plan:

Nomura: Whether it’s crazy or not, you’ve assembled quite a number of characters.

Sakurai: Honestly, when we revealed Solid Snake for Brawl, I thought, “There’s no way we’ll be able to stage a bigger surprise than this.” But, as a creator, you just keep making more while trying to surprise and delight your audience as much as possible.

Nomura: The element of surprise is very important.

It is difficult for me really see Sakurai getting rid of these surprise additions anytime soon, even with the amount of content and veterans returning that could possibly limit the development of 15+ unique newcomers as the previous two Smash installments, especially with what these "surprise" characters can offer gameplay-wise. It is not as simple of a decision as "lol there are no more historical video game characters to represent, I covered all the bases and my thought process is over and will simply skip over surprise additions and move on just like that". That is why I think downplaying the real possibility of Hanafuda simply because it is not video game related is a terrible idea.


Naturally, I think historical significance to the company's history could easily make up for the obscure status of Hanafuda cards outside Japan, unlike Nester, Virtual Boy, and Sheriff, whose positive prominence in Nintendo history is a small pebble in comparison.

To provide some counterpoints, there is a difference between surprising fans with characters like Solid Snake or Cloud and surprising fans with characters like ROB or Hanafuda. The interview is clearly speaking about the former.

And I don’t think Sheriff’s importance to Nintendo history should be understated, as their first protagonist.

 

[RealPokeFan11]

Hanafuda Character

Chance: 0%
I don't see it happening because how would you turn this into a playable character? Sure, a trophy sounds reasonable, maybe even an item, but not a fighter. These cards aren't even characters, what do you do with them?
Abstaining from want today on account of "I didn't know anything about this until today, so I don't have an opinion yet."

You summed up my EXACT thoughts when I was researching this.

 

[colder_than_ice]

For the Hanafuda creator, Fusajiro Yamauchi,to get around the card problem, he would have to replace the numbers in his cards with Japanese painted art that represented the twelve months of the year.

I'll just quickly point out that Yamauchi did not create Hanafuda, nor was he the person who replaced the numbers with the japanese artwork, that all happend in the late 18th century (late 1700s). Although it is true that Nintendo was the first company to manufacture those cards as a standalone product, the game was already being played on home made cards about 100 years before Nintendo.

Chance: 1% - If it's any consolation, I don't think the idea is completely impossible, it really depends on whether or not Sakurai desperately wants a historical rep. My first issue is that I'm not entirely convinced that there was ever such thing as a "historical rep" to begin with. Sakurai could very easily have seen Mr. Game & Watch, ROB, and Duck Hunt as classic old school retro video game characters like Ice Climbers or Pit who were all from the same decade. The term "historical rep" seems to be a fan made term used almost exclusively by Sheriff and Hanafuda supporters. My second issue is that I'm not sure what physical form a Hanafuda fighter could be given without looking completely ridiculous. I'm sorry, but the idea of fusing the real life Napoleon with a Japanese flower themed move pool would feel incredibly forced.

Want: 40% - I'm not against the idea as long as it can be done well. I personally think Hanafuda content would work better as an item, assist trophy, or even a stage. But I'll try to be open minded seeing as Sakurai's made seemingly bizarre ideas work before (like Wii Fit Trainer, and Mr. Game & Watch).

Nominations: Edelgard x5

 

[BluePikmin11]

To provide some counterpoints, there is a difference between surprising fans with characters like Solid Snake or Cloud and surprising fans with characters like ROB or Hanafuda. The interview is clearly speaking about the former.

Good point. Still, I do not think "surprise" characters should be easily dismissed with speculators.

And I don’t think Sheriff’s importance to Nintendo history should be understated, as their first protagonist.

What did his game do to provide the same amount of historical impact as R.O.B., Game and Watch, and Duck Hunt? Being a first protagonist is not exactly a step forward to Nintendo's history.

 

[RealPokeFan11]

(Silently hopes for this day to not be a double day)

 

[GoodGrief741]

Good point. Still, I do not think "surprise" characters should be easily dismissed with speculators.


What did his game do to provide the same amount of historical impact as R.O.B., Game and Watch, and Duck Hunt? Being a first protagonist is not exactly a step forward to Nintendo's history.

What did Duck Hunt do? Besides selling well.

I think the importance of being the first character is by itself something not to be trifled with, coupled with the fact that the game itself was a success.

 

[aarchak]

What did Duck Hunt do? Besides selling well.

I think the importance of being the first character is by itself something not to be trifled with, coupled with the fact that the game itself was a success.

Duck Hunt was the NES Zapper game. The real reason Duck Hunt is in is we remember him as one of those NES era classic characters, like Ice Climbers. We don't really remember or care about Nintendo's hanafuda cards. It's mostly remembered as a cool piece of Nintendo trivia.

 

[BluePikmin11]

What did Duck Hunt do? Besides selling well.

I think the importance of being the first character is by itself something not to be trifled with, coupled with the fact that the game itself was a success.

Duck Hunt was a big selling NES game, representing one of Nintendo's most popular hardware that kept the video game market alive, with the NES Zapper being bundled with R.O.B. that helped marketed the NES as a toy to achieve major success. In a way, Duck Hunt is the little sister of R.O.B.

With Sheriff, sure he might have set the groundwork for Nintendo's future arcade games, but his arcade game did not have the same degree of success and cultural impact as hits like Frogger, Pac-Man, Space Invader, and Donkey Kong.

 

[Erureido]

Abstaining for today.

------

Nominations

Susie (Kirby): x5

 

[GoodGrief741]

Duck Hunt was the NES Zapper game. The real reason Duck Hunt is in is we remember him as one of those NES era classic characters, like Ice Climbers. We don't really remember or care about Nintendo's hanafuda cards. It's mostly remembered as a cool piece of Nintendo trivia.

I was responding to BluePikmin’s assertion that the historical character has to be important. I have no doubt that Duck Hunt is memorable (Ice Climber, though, would have likely fallen into obscurity without Smash, as it wasn’t even that well received)

Duck Hunt was a big selling NES game, representing one of Nintendo's most popular hardware that kept the video game market alive, with the NES Zapper being bundled with R.O.B. that helped marketed the NES as a toy to achieve major success. In a way, Duck Hunt is the little sister of R.O.B.

With Sheriff, sure he might have set the groundwork for Nintendo's future arcade games, but his arcade game did not have the same degree of success and cultural impact as hits like Frogger, Pac-Man, Space Invader, and Donkey Kong.

Duck Hunt is not the NES Zapper, though, just one of the games that used it. While the moveset for Duck Hunt included other Zapper games, that was an association made by Sakurai. Gumshoe could just as easily have been the representative for the Zapper. Duck Hunt got in because the game was a success and beloved by many, not because it was important to Nintendo’s history.

I think it’s unfair to compare Sheriff to those massive hit, it was still a successful game in its own right.

 

[Gerrothorax]

Hanafuda Character
Chance: 0%
This is a "character" suggested purely to fill an arbitrary quota and not because anyone legitimately wants them. If Sakurai wants to add in a retro character, he'll add an actual character not a bunch of random 100 year old cards that have barely anything to do with video games.
Want: 0%
No thank you. I'd rather the developers spend their time on actual characters and not make a forced move-set for a deck of cards.
Noms X5 to Metroidvania-like adventure mode

 

[GoodGrief741]

Hanafuda Character
Chance: 0%
This is a "character" suggested purely to fill an arbitrary quota and not because anyone legitimately wants them. If Sakurai wants to add in a retro character, he'll add an actual character not a bunch of random 100 year old cards that have barely anything to do with video games.
Want: 0%
No thank you. I'd rather the developers spend their time on actual characters and not make a forced move-set for a deck of cards.
Noms X5 to Metroidvania-like adventure mode

I can attest to many people genuinely wanting a Hanafuda character in Smash.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I think it’s unfair to compare Sheriff to those massive hits, it was still a successful game in its own right.

Sheriff might have been successful, but not as successful and central to moving Nintendo forward to get in more than an Assist Trophy role and not a "surprise" character in two Smash games. The game's importance to Nintendo is greatly over-exaggerated. You say being the first Nintendo character is important, but what big influences did it have aside from laying the groundwork for future arcade games that would later become huge hits like Donkey Kong? Even Popeye had bigger influence than Sheriff.

 

[KeyOh]

Concept: Hanafuda Character

Chance: 1%
This seems like a logical choice for a historical/retro rep, but that's all it has going for it. If Sakurai wanted a history-based rep this game, it's certainly possible the concept of a Hanafuda-based fighter was considered. However, to me it just doesn't seem like something Sakurai would go for. Hanafuda is a big part of Nintendo's history, but creating a realistic moveset for it would be difficult I feel. Other fighters that were a huge part of Nintendo's history all have movesets that seem to have been pretty simple to theorycraft. Game and Watch attacks by using animations from various GnW titles, Duck Hunt attacks with items from light gun compatible titles. etc. To me, Hanafuda cards just don't have quite enough to put together a moveset akin to these ones.
Of course, this is all assuming Sakurai even planned for a historical fighter this game. Sure, they seem to be a consistent addition, but development time was limited this game and it wouldn't heavily support the fanservice angle this game definitely has. It's always possible, but given what we currently know I doubt it will actually happen.

Want: 50%
The concept of a fighter themed around playing cards could be really interesting. I love the idea of a character that fights with a deck of cards, but I'm not sure if that would translate into Smash well. It feels like there's a dozen ways that Sakurai could go with the idea of "Hanafuda character" and none of them are an incredibly obvious choice. I generally love the historical characters, but this is something I'd have to see in action before I could definitively say I like it or not. So, this is something I'm more or less on the fence about.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Hanafuda Chance and want: ABSTAINED

Nominate Concept Yoshi's Crafted World Stage x5

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I think it is important to think about what Sakurai could change his mind about and transition to when speculating. Sakurai as a developer/director of Smash Bros can re-visit and come up with ideas on his own to continue to build-up and make his newcomer line-up refreshing/interesting for each Smash iteration. He sorta says this in a way, during the interview conducted about the Cloud DLC in Smash 4, which could still hold true for Ultimate's project plan:

Nomura: Whether it’s crazy or not, you’ve assembled quite a number of characters.

Sakurai: Honestly, when we revealed Solid Snake for Brawl, I thought, “There’s no way we’ll be able to stage a bigger surprise than this.” But, as a creator, you just keep making more while trying to surprise and delight your audience as much as possible.

Nomura: The element of surprise is very important.

I've gotta echo what a few others have said in re: this point. Yes, Sakurai likes to surprise and delight us. How? By giving us a character who is known by almost every gamer but who was widely thought 'impossible' because of his lack of Nintendo appearances.

I don't think there were many people who were like "Cloud? Who the **** is that?" at that announcement (I'm sure there were some). Mostly, it was "Whoa! They got CLOUD in Smash!? I can have my Link/Cloud match?!?"

We were surprised and delighted (maybe not as much as if Vergeben hadn't leaked it) to see Ridley in - see the YouTube videos of the crowds chanting "Not Too Big!" at the NYC Nintendo store. We were surprised and delighted to see K.Rool get in, especially since nobody expected anyone other than Simon during the direct.

But Hanafuda...? I guess 'surprised' would still hold. But I'm not so sure that the community would flip to delighted there. ROB basically saved the video game market after the crash of 83, but there are still people who are a bit salty about him since Brawl. Duck Hunt didn't seem to get much hate since Dark Pit is a thing the dog is a lot more recognizable and there was a certain catharsis for people finally getting to beat the **** out of it. Hanafuda would not have that slight bit of je ne sais quoi that allows us to appreciate - or at least accept - Duck Hunt or ROB. Remember, DHD is memetic and memorable for that laugh alone, and most of ROB's popularity comes from the story Brawl gave him. Hanafuda would appeal to the miniscule subset of people who are extreme Nintendo history buffs and...that's about it.

Also, sorry for the late reply - I know you get frustrated when people just drop a debate, so I don't want you to think that, but truth be told, this is just a terribly busy week for me so I'm not able to respond as much as I'd like to.

 

[Artix]

Abstain. I don't really know much about this concept.

Nominations:
Kyo Kusanagi x5

 

[BluePikmin11]

But Hanafuda...? I guess 'surprised' would still hold. But I'm not so sure that the community would flip to delighted there. ROB basically saved the video game market after the crash of 83, but there are still people who are a bit salty about him since Brawl. Duck Hunt didn't seem to get much hate since Dark Pit is a thing the dog is a lot more recognizable and there was a certain catharsis for people finally getting to beat the **** out of it. Hanafuda would not have that slight bit of je ne sais quoi that allows us to appreciate - or at least accept - Duck Hunt or ROB. Remember, DHD is memetic and memorable for that laugh alone, and most of ROB's popularity comes from the story Brawl gave him. Hanafuda would appeal to the miniscule subset of people who are extreme Nintendo history buffs and...that's about it.

Depending on the execution (Which I have faith Sakurai can make work) I think the casual Smash community would find it to be a great addition. If such a scenario happened, I think people would generally connect the dots of Hanafuda's history to Nintendo and connect that with the logic of a "joke" character that to be ok with the inclusion. I know Nintendo fans like Gaijin Goomba would be estactic for these kids of additions. Add the point of Hanafuda being a card summoner fighter, some Smash fans might find that kind of fighter very appealing to play as.

You would be surprised how reception generally turns out.

We had Smash fans hre who were hardcore against the idea of transformation fighters, thinking that the return will just make people salty and that there was no solution to it. Instead, positive reception came with the better execution of transformation, with people's predictions on the reception being flat-out wrong. You and I personally experienced a small victory with this one.

Hell, had Tom Nook been revealed playable in Ultimate, I would have no doubt that a massive number of casual Ninendo fans would have been happy that you could kick ass being Tom Nook using money for combat, or being able to beat up Tom Nook to make up for his "unlawful" deeds with debt.

The possible negative reception you see with Hanafuda I feel is not what is going to actually happen. I think it would be more positive than people here think. I think there is no way Hanafuda would receive the same aount of controversy as Dark Pit or Corrin to the point where even hardcore Nintendo fans are disappointed.

Also, sorry for the late reply - I know you get frustrated when people just drop a debate, so I don't want you to think that, but truth be told, this is just a terribly busy week for me so I'm not able to respond as much as I'd like to.

No worries.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Sheriff might have been successful, but not as successful and central to moving Nintendo forward to get in more than an Assist Trophy role and not a "surprise" character in two Smash games. The game's importance to Nintendo is greatly over-exaggerated. You say being the first Nintendo character is important, but what big influences did it have aside from laying the groundwork for future arcade games that would later become huge hits like Donkey Kong? Even Popeye had bigger influence than Sheriff.

Maybe this is just me, but I think the first of everything is important. Just as Hanafuda was Nintendo’s first product (thus making it more important for representation than, say, the Love Tester), so is Sheriff important by virtue of being the first character.

I also think the idea of characters in arcade games (vs. nondescript spaceships/people) is incredibly revolutionary and would later lead to character based games like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong. It’s the first step towards something huge.