"Rate My Moveset!" :: Moveset Critique Thread

[Wave⁂]

Perhaps you could replace Azelf with basically any physical attacker out there. MAYBE EVEN AZELF

Zen Headbutt kills (usually)
Fire Punch kills
U-Turn sometimes kills

Zapdos's neutral nature 4 Atk U-Turn: 28.6% - 34%
Adamant Life Orb Azelf's U-Turn: 65.3% - 77.1%


Alternately, Scarf Honchkrow

 

[Gates]

Oh **** Scarf Honchkrow that's that rattle rattle thunderclatter ****.

 

[Zankoku]

Yes, you can run Scarf Honchkrow, if you're okay with two Scarf users on your team. I suppose it doubles as a Breloom check.

 

[UltiMario]

I've done SpecNape with Overheat/Focus Blast/Grass Knot/U-Turn with SD/CB Scizor with Lum Berry rather than their respective item. Beats most leads, or at least has a shot if luck runs your way. Does some nice things like beat Gross through Occa and if you get a good roll it can even OHKO LeadChamp, other things like U-Turn to Bullet Punch can get Aero and occasionally Azelf.

 

[Riddle]

Lum Technitop is sexier

 

[O D I N]

EDIT: My bad. :-/ Moved post to a new thread.

 

[RuNNing Riot]

You need to make a separate thread for rating teams, 0DIN. This is only for individual Pokemon.

 

[O D I N]

You need to make a separate thread for rating teams, 0DIN. This is only for individual Pokemon.

Ah, nuts. Thanks. :-/ Sorry. I'll remove it.

 

[Creo]

Well, I've been off the scene for a little while now(I was frequent here, and learned competitive Pokemon back in 07/08), and I need some to know if this set is good with the current metagame(which I don't know as of now, because I didn't even know Salamence and Garchomp were uber):

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Timid
34 HP / 252 SpAtk / 224 Spd
- Overheat Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Dragon Pulse/Dark Pulse/Explosion

You hit 405 Speed. That outspeeds quite a few main things(or at least it did). But now that I think about it, I'd use Hidden Power [Electric] and Dark Pulse over Hidden Power [Ice] and Dragon Pulse. Since Garchomp/Salamence are gone(the primary for Ice), I would believe the coverage is lower, correct? Hidden Power [Electric] covers a 1(or 2?) DD Gyrados(adamant) as well. Pretty much, I don't know if Heatran is commonly used anymore, and I'm stuying up the current Metagame now.

* I sent this to Riddle earlier for advice, but then I found this thread. El oh el. Sorry Riddle! *

 

[Zankoku]

I would run 228 speed just to be one above the given 405 speed tier.
Max speed jolly +1 Gyarados actually outruns max speed timid scarf Heatran, so be careful with that game.
Would you really want to run Overheat on a scarf build? Fire Blast usually hits hard enough, and the -2 SAtk drop means that you wouldn't be able to keep Heatran in for much more than a turn after selecting his STAB.
Also, you'll want to ask yourself what kind of coverage you're after with your moveset. Both HP Electric and Dark Pulse will 2HKO a Starmie with 0 defensive investment, as well as the standard defensive spinner Starmie. Though Dark Pulse will always OHKO Azelf after Stealth Rock, so will a STAB Fire Blast/Overheat, which would probably be a better option to throw out (well, Overheat, anyway), since Dark typing is resisted by both Steel and Fighting, the first of which you'd normally scare away and are now allowing to come in on revenge, and the other threatening a super-effective OHKO. You're in deep **** if a Lucario comes in on you, since Dark Pulse would do laughable damage on the 4x resist and you're giving it either a very free setup turn or the chance to Close Combat whatever you switch in.

EDIT: Flamethrower is a far stronger option than Heat Wave, having only 5 less base power (or 7.5 if calculating for STAB) but 100% accuracy and more PP to boot, while still retaining the same chance of burning. I'm pretty sure Heat Wave is only used as an option on Pokémon without access to Flamethrower, actually...

 

[NJzFinest]

That's pretty much exactly what every Heatran looks like these days + Heatran is very common.

However, Explosion >>> Dragon Pulse if you're not worried about the remaining dragons in OU (Dragon nite and Kingdra), which you shouldn't be (since almost every Heatran is backed up a fat, blue sponge that can icebeam, roar, or cripple).

 

[UltiMario]

I haven't see too many ScarfTran lately. Normally I'm seeing defensive variants to have bulk on their F/W/G core.

 

[mood4food77]

yea dragon isn't really that good of an attack type if it's not STAB, as it's usually just better to carry HP ice since it actually hits dragon types harder and covers your weakness to ground types and flying types

yes, fire/ground/dragon has perfect coverage, it's just that the dragon move doens't have enough power and doesn't hit anything but dragon types for SE damage

 

[UltiMario]

The funny thing bout Fire/Dragon/Ground is that the one you need STAB on it for it to be any good is Dragon.

 

[Wave⁂]

Dragon Pulse on ScarfTran is pretty good in the end-game. Imagine...

ScarfTran vs. weakened Kingdra, Starmie, and Breloom.

Fire Blast isn't going to be hurting Kingdra much, and it will only do about 50% to Starmie. You could try Earth Power, but Breloom just laughs at you. HP Ice resisted by Starmie, which can be brought in after sacrificing Kingdra or Zapdos. HP Grass is resisted by Breloom, which can be brought in after sacrificing Starmie.

Dragon Pulse does a decent amount of damage to all three.

 

[UltiMario]

So a few rare scenarios Dragon Pulse is good.

K

 

[Bum Rush]

I never find myself using Dragon Pulse with my Kingdra.

 

[UltiMario]

Using Dragon Pulse AGAINST a Kingdra, not Kingdra using a Dragon Pulse.

 

[Bum Rush]

I know, im saying how rarely I use Dragon Pulse, showing its usefulness, further proving your point.

 

[Zankoku]

It's likely partly due to Steel still being a rather popular defensive typing.

 

[NJzFinest]

Rare to find Kingdras using DP.
Never find it on Nite, with good reason.
SpecLatias and Mence are no more, they were the only ones who could hit hard enough with it. Special Kingdras and Nites just Draco Meteor all day.
Heatran doesn't need it unless you're silly or unfortunate.

Soo.. I say lol @ Dragon Pulse as a move in general.

edit:

Never use Dark Pulse on Scarftran.

 

[Circa]

Dragon Pulse does a decent amount of damage to all three.

This is why I actually like to have Dragon Pulse on Heatran. Well, not for end-game purposes actually, but more the opposite. I find it to be good for early-game, where your opponent is very unlikely to switch in any Steels (bar maybe Heatran, but even then they're likely to not switch in, in the anymore-likely event that you're not locked) and are more likely to switch in a Dragon, bulky water, or Blissey/Snorlax than anything else. This typically makes Dragon Pulse your best choice, as it'll hit every likely switch-in bar Heatran for neutral+ damage. This is compared to Fire Blast, which will hit every likely thing for just as hard as Dragon Pulse (apart from Blissey who simply doesn't give a **** and Heatran which is worse). And add on the fact that Fire Blast can miss, and the decision just seems that much...easier.

But that's just my thought on it.

 

[NJzFinest]

I find it to be good for early-game, where your opponent is very unlikely to switch in any Steels (bar maybe Heatran, but even then they're likely to not switch in, in the anymore-likely event that you're not locked)

Yes, people don't switch in steels on a fire type. But they do when it's locked on Dragon Pulse.

and are more likely to switch in a Dragon, bulky water, or Blissey/Snorlax than anything else. This typically makes Dragon Pulse your best choice, as it'll hit every likely switch-in bar Heatran for neutral+ damage. This is compared to Fire Blast, which will hit every likely thing for just as hard as Dragon Pulse (apart from Blissey who simply doesn't give a **** and Heatran which is worse). And add on the fact that Fire Blast can miss, and the decision just seems that much...easier.

If you're iffy about Fire Blast, even Flamethrower is better on bulky waters and Bliss/Lax.

Idk, I'm just really against DP, mostly with the decrease of dragon and increase of steel lol.

 

[Circa]

Yes, people don't switch in steels on a fire type. But they do when it's locked on Dragon Pulse.

AFTER you've already hurt their bulky water/dragon. This is early game, remember? The more damage you can do now, the better. Also, if you've locked yourself into Fire Blast then the NEXT likely switch-in is Heatran, who you can't do anything at all to and is probably going to sub as you switch out. So now, if you didn't bother to switch out after using Fire Blast/Flamethrower the first time, you've got a Subbed Heatran with a Flash Fire boost staring your next Pokemon down.

Note: they somehow know you're locked into Dragon Pulse/Fire Blast in this scenario, as you stated.

If you're iffy about Fire Blast, even Flamethrower is better on bulky waters and Bliss/Lax.

Better? Lolyoucantdomath.

95 * 1.5 / 2 = 71.25

Compared to 90. Yeahhhh...sorry, but I'm not seeing how it's "better". Maybe Lax because of a burn chance, but you're not staying in against Lax anyway. Same goes for Blissey with the extra power.

 

[Zankoku]

Steel is rising with the fall of Dragons? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

[Gates]

You know what's better than Flamethrower, Fire Blast, and Lava Plume against Bulk Waters, Blissey, and Snorlax?

Explosion.

 

[NJzFinest]

AFTER you've already hurt their bulky water/dragon.

You're not going to hurt any bulky water with it.

This is early game, remember? The more damage you can do now, the better. Also, if you've locked yourself into Fire Blast then the NEXT likely switch-in is Heatran, who you can't do anything at all to and is probably going to sub as you switch out. So now, if you didn't bother to switch out after using Fire Blast/Flamethrower the first time, you've got a Subbed Heatran with a Flash Fire boost staring your next Pokemon down.

And being locked in Dragon Pulse changes anything?

I'm just saying, either way it can lead to the opponent having a good switch-in. Why not replace DragonPulse for a better move (dunno why you're just comparing it to FT/FB).

I also hope you're aware that the first part of my post was me loling at you mentioning people switching steels on Heatran. So... it's true they would if you were locked on DP, not FT/FB. Instead of just Heatran, any steel would be able to setup. ScarfZone also says hi.

Better? Lolyoucantdomath.

I was considering the chance of burn... I expected too much out of you?
I'm assuming you think Rotoms with Discharge, physical waters with Waterfall, and Aerodactyls with Rock Slide are useless.

Maybe Lax because of a burn chance, but you're not staying in against Lax anyway. Same goes for Blissey with the extra power.

Maybe? It's also more damage lmao

Too bad explosion ***** both of them and bulky waters.

You know what's better than Flamethrower, Fire Blast, and Lava Plume against Bulk Waters, Blissey, and Snorlax?

Not Dragon Pulse

Explosion.

:D !!!!!!!

Explosion >>> Dragon Pulse

Derp

 

[Circa]

You're not going to hurt any bulky water with it.

But you're going to hit it as hard as you would with Fire Blast! And you're still hitting the Dragon harder with it.

And being locked in Dragon Pulse changes anything?

I'm just saying, either way it can lead to the opponent having a good switch-in. Why not replace DragonPulse for a better move (dunno why you're just comparing it to FT/FB).

Give me a better move. No obvious Explosion. Go.

I also hope you're aware that the first part of my post was me loling at you mentioning people switching steels on Heatran. So... it's true they would if you were locked on DP, not FT/FB. Instead of just Heatran, any steel would be able to setup. ScarfZone also says hi.

The same can be said for ****ing any of his moves. Hell, the same can be said for any scarfed Pokemon. I don't get why you're saying it's so important that Steels ruin you. And yes, I do realize that ScarfZone says hi. But that's about the same as saying Tyranitar says hi to Scarf Rotom. It's relatively pointless.

I was considering the chance of burn... I expected too much out of you?
I'm assuming you think Rotoms with Discharge, physical waters with Waterfall, and Aerodactyls with Rock Slide are useless.

OBVIOUSLY I considered a chance of burn. But in most scenarios I don't like to gamble my chances on 10% if I don't have to. Oh yeah, and in Snorlax's case, it also has Rest about 60% of the time. Just a note. But anyway, Rotom's chance to paralyze with Discharge is 3x higher than that of Heatran's chance to burn with Flamethrower. I'd rather go Lava Plume if that was my 'overall' goal with the move. Physical waters only get the choice between base 80 Waterfall, which really has no drawbacks at all (and the BONUS of the flinch chance), or base 90 Aqua Tail, which has a 10% chance of missing and no bonus. The difference in power doesn't merit the difference in accuracy, especially when mixed with the flinch bonus. The difference in Fire Blast and Flamethrower usually does. Aerodactyl has to choose between Stone Miss and Rock Slide. One has a crit chance, one has a flinch chance. One has 80% accuracy, one has 90% accuracy. We're talking about the lead position, where many of the Pokemon it's using Stone Miss/Rock Slide against are sash'd (you'd either hit the rest with EQ if you ever got the chance or just switch out for later), where obviously the higher chance to hit and the chance to flinch is more important than the chance to crit.

I understand the merits of all these. You fail to understand that gambling on a 10% chance for one Pokemon, imo, isn't really worth it. I'd rather have the better and much more devastating (and much better chance of it actually happening) chance against the 3 or 4 I can actually hit harder and basically put out of commission.

Maybe? It's also more damage lmao

Thick Fat. 77.8% of all Snorlax carry it.

Too bad explosion ***** both of them and bulky waters.

At the cost of my own. I'm talking about the merit of this move in the early game, remember? I guess using Explosion on your initial switch-in to take out their likely bulky water or dragon is cool, but a good team would usually have other ways to deal with them anyway. I do like the move and all it does, but no.

 

[mood4food77]

dragon pulse: 90 BP
flamethrower: 95 BP x 1.5 STAB = 142.5 BP
fire blast: 120 BP x 1.5 STAB = 180 BP

and that's just flamethrower, with fire blast, even if it's resisted, it's still doing as much damage to water types that aren't kingdra as DP is, with the extra chance to burn (you can bring up Snorlax but the damage is the same), that extra chance to burn is not something to ignore

there's no reason for it, carrying explosion provides a good check for blissey and snorlax, as rotom is 2HKO'd by fire blast anyways

you really underestimate how good explosion is, it can really screw with the opponents team synergy, for example:
blissey is usually the opponents only answer to special attacks, if you explode on it, you kill it and completely ruin the opponents ability to sponge special attacks

 

[NJzFinest]

From your older post:

Compared to 90. Yeahhhh...sorry, but I'm not seeing how it's "better". Maybe Lax because of a burn chance, but you're not staying in against Lax anyway. Same goes for Blissey with the extra power.

Why would you stay in regardless of FT/DP vs any special sponge?
----

But you're going to hit it as hard as you would with Fire Blast! And you're still hitting the Dragon harder with it.

Fire burns, Dragons I already mentioned earlier.

And being locked in Dragon Pulse changes anything?

This was mentioned in the other post...

Give me a better move. No obvious Explosion. Go.

Fire moves and Hidden Power

The same can be said for ****ing any of his moves. Hell, the same can be said for any scarfed Pokemon. I don't get why you're saying it's so important that Steels ruin you.

Are you even ****ing reading my posts... or even your own? You're the one who brought up steels vs Heatran and I'm simply loling @ that. Since you were so adamant on how another Heatran can setup on fire moves, I was just like "well, any steel can setup on ****ty *** DP".

And yes, I do realize that ScarfZone says hi. But that's about the same as saying Tyranitar says hi to Scarf Rotom. It's relatively pointless.

However ScarfZone beating Scarftran = rofl. It's relatively ****ING ********.

OBVIOUSLY I considered a chance of burn.

So trying to do my math homework was just you being unnecessary?

Oh yeah, and in Snorlax's case, it also has Rest about 60% of the time.

Yup, and DP is really gonna bring on the pain lol.

Just a note. But anyway, Rotom's chance to paralyze with Discharge is 3x higher than that of Heatran's chance to burn with Flamethrower.

Compare it to thunderbolt.

Physical waters only get the choice between base 80 Waterfall, which really has no drawbacks at all (and the BONUS of the flinch chance), or base 90 Aqua Tail, which has a 10% chance of missing and no bonus. The difference in power doesn't merit the difference in accuracy, especially when mixed with the flinch bonus. The difference in Fire Blast and Flamethrower usually does.

OK...

Aerodactyl has to choose between Stone Miss and Rock Slide.

NO WAI!!!

One has a crit chance, one has a flinch chance.

TELL ME MOREEEE

One has 80% accuracy, one has 90% accuracy.

ZzZz

We're talking about the lead position, where many of the Pokemon it's using Stone Miss/Rock Slide against are sash'd (you'd either hit the rest with EQ if you ever got the chance or just switch out for later), where obviously the higher chance to hit and the chance to flinch is more important than the chance to crit.

People really don't rely on crit with SE, simply more damage in general vs lesser but more guaranteed. I was saying that in FT/FB vs DP, both can be higher than the other but the damage difference isn't much, and there's something extra in the fire moves.

Also consider that the moveslot for DP isn't necessarily part of the set. It's FireMove/EP/Explosion/ insert HP or DP here. I'm saying DP shouldn't be considered for the last slot. The person who posted up Choice Scarf Heatran didn't even list Explosion eventhough it's part of the set. I say HP is better and get rid of DP. Doesn't matter if DP is sometimes better then a Firemove lmao, Fire ain't leaving this moveset.

I understand the merits of all these. You fail to understand that gambling on a 10% chance for one Pokemon, imo, isn't really worth it. I'd rather have the better and much more devastating (and much better chance of it actually happening) chance against the 3 or 4 I can actually hit harder and basically put out of commission.

And I'm saying that you're not hurting anything not named Nite or Kingdra no matter what, so let's try for a burn anyways, especially if using FB.

Thick Fat. 77.8% of all Snorlax carry it.

So consider the fact I said fire was still fine enough on those bulky waters? lol

At the cost of my own. I'm talking about the merit of this move in the early game, remember?

And I'm talking about the move... sucking, period.

For the record, you really don't need to make an entire paragraph on what moves do for me. Especially in reply to something like "I bet you think.... ".

 

[Wave⁂]

Chance to miss with Fire Blast is higher than the chance to burn. In addition, many bulky waters would love being burned so you can't kill them with Toxic.

 

[Circa]

This is probably the stupidest argument I've ever had.

I was talking about the merit of a no-prediction EARLY-GAME move. Obviously Fire Blast does just as much to bulky waters, and obviously it hits most other **** a lot harder. But you can also miss, and your opponents aren't likely to switch in anything that takes neutral (or more) damage from ****ing Fire Blast or is weak to Earth Power at all in the early-game. And I just want to do some ****ing damage in the early-game NOT at the cost of my own ****ing Pokemon. Can you understand that? Yes, I can use HP-Grass or Electric in the last slot and hit bulky waters hard early-game, but if a dragon comes in then I'm potentially doing a lot less than I would. And considering Dragons are, at least imo, more immediately threatening, I think I'd rather take my chances on beating them out as opposed to bulky waters.

That is all I was ****ing saying.

And yes m4f, I know how good Explosion is.

 

[NJzFinest]

Chance to miss with Fire Blast is higher than the chance to burn. In addition, many bulky waters would love being burned so you can't kill them with Toxic.

Love? No. It reverses the effect of leftovers.
And this is assuming you rely on toxic to beat bulky waters.

Keep in mind this = "ok, there's these 2 moves. Both get sponged easily. However, 1 I actually need on this set and the other I can replace for something better".

/conversation lol

edit:

I was talking about the merit of a no-prediction EARLY-GAME move.

And I'm talking about that specific move sucking.

And I just want to do some ****ing damage in the early-game NOT at the cost of my own ****ing Pokemon.

But you're not either way.

Can you understand that?

Obviously

That is all I was ****ing saying.

Reread my first reply to you and rethink if it was actually worth building an argument...

Keep in mind that everything I refuted was something you brought up lmao.

 

[kirbyraeg]

So basically this just says that Heatran has no real good options for the last slot and should just run a non-scarf substitute set while bluffing a scarf.

Good times.

 

[Zankoku]

Dragon Pulse + Explosion doesn't seem like a terrible combination.

Comparing Flamethrower/Fire Blast's 10% burn chance to Discharge's 30%, Waterfall's 20%, and Rock Slide's 30% is pretty amusing. Using Fire Blast's 10% burn chance as incentive to draw dead even with Dragon Pulse's 90 power on water types when it also has 15% less accuracy is amusing, as well.

Why are you worried about Magnezone when it's the last ****ing thing that's gonna immediately switch into a Heatran? You bring in the Heatran, pick Dragon Pulse to deal respectable damage to just about anything that comes in on it, then switch out. It's actually a far less stupid strategy than the early "I STAB Fire Blast with my ScarfTran and hope you don't run a Heatran yourself!" plan, and don't get me started with the "I scout your team with Explosion!" plan.

Bulky specially-based waters with recovery moves don't give all that much of a **** about burn compared to bad poison. Slowbro and Vaporeon come to mind as pretty good examples of this.

 

[NJzFinest]

Why are you worried about Magnezone when it's the last ****ing thing that's gonna immediately switch into a Heatran?

I was honestly thinking worse case scenario this whole time. Like, a Nite comes and gets blasted by DP, then Magnezone says hi. But yeah, bringing up steelies in general was stupid, >_> @ Circa

It's actually a far less stupid strategy than the early "I STAB Fire Blast with my ScarfTran and hope you don't run a Heatran yourself!"

Why far? Damage difference isn't big and can go on either side. As for an opponent Heatran, every Heatran has a normal/water sponge partner that doesn't even care about a boosted fire power. Unless you REALLY want to get a Dragon Pulse on that enemy Heatran, go for it. Also, don't pretend that Earth Power doesn't exist (oh wait, same damage as Dragon Pulse? No wai! Only Pokemon that might be happy is a Flygon that ain't scared of HP)....
....
Nevertheless, even having Dragon Pulse is questionable.

If it really is far less stupid, then start expecting ScarfZones to come in lol

"I scout your team with Explosion!" plan.

Unlike DP, Explosion shouldn't even be considered a move to not have.

Bulky specially-based waters with recovery moves don't give all that much of a **** about burn compared to bad poison. Slowbro and Vaporeon come to mind as pretty good examples of this.

It reverses the effect of leftovers.
And this is assuming you rely on toxic to beat bulky waters.



Hmm, yeah, I shoulda just mentioned Earth Power earlier. Many Heatrans scout with that.

 

[Circa]

But yeah, bringing up steelies in general was stupid, >_> @ Circa

I never said you'd bring in steels. I said that it was extremely unlikely the opponent would. YOU said they'd bring them in AFTER the initial switch to a bulky water or dragon, and I agreed. The only time I was wrong was when I made the comparison between ScarfZone vs ScarfTran and ScarfTar vs ScarfTom (I wasn't thinking about Fire Blast or Earth Power when I said it, so meh).

Have YOU been reading anything this whole time?

 

[NJzFinest]

What implies I wasn't?

Btw, when I say "bringing up steelies in general", I mean mentioning them / talking about them / idk how else to make this easier to understand. I did not mean bring them in on Heatran.

I think steelies shouldn't have been mentioned, ever. w/e

YOU

crank dat souja boi

so yeah, how bout that scarftran?

fire move
earth power
explosion
hp > dragon pulse

Or should we keep talking about how dragon pulse sometimes might be better then a move that is required on the set?

 

[Zankoku]

Running Dragon Pulse over HP Ice lets you outspeed Heatrans with HP Ice. HP Electric is a somewhat more relevant decision between that and Dragon Pulse - do you want to break up waters, or cover a lot of things neutrally and beat the two Dragons that resist/null your normal options (fire is resisted and ground is nulled by both)? I agree that Explosion is pretty much a necessity nowadays, though, as playing with four special attacks doesn't really cut it in today's metagame.

If a Dragonite comes in on a DRAGON PULSE, you've very effectively crippled it (after Stealth Rock, it's either dead or at around 25% life). Same to Flygon. You can then proceed to continue throwing out Dragon Pulses as long as it's not Flygon. If Magnezone switches in to resist the Pulse, you outspeed even the Scarf variants so it still loses half its life just to eliminate you. If it comes in on revenge, you just killed their Dragonite.

As for Explosion, you misunderstood me, NJz. I'm talking about using it as your move after sending in Heatran for the first time.

 

[Riddle]

NJz, PLEASE try to argue with a little respect. You are clearly intentionally antagonizing and insulting the people you are arguing with and it made me lose ALL respect for you. Regardless of the validity of your points (I personally disagree but what do I know?), your style of argument is offensive and rude and I don't want the PC to be like that.