Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Masonomace]

But Bthrow...

Oh. OH LOL Damn I had a passing thought we already discussed it, but didn't & you right. I'd talk about it now & have data tables for kill percents for notable Bthrows that kill, but we can wait. .

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Bthrow discussion when?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Might as well do it now? How long we been stuck on Dthrow?

 

[TDK]

is S tier.

The thing with Bthrow is I can't think of a single backwards combo throw, they're all either kill throws or positioning. That might change how we rank them.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

BThrow does have a few combos at very low prevents that work decently well on a lot of characters. It does kill(not very well on its own, unless close to the edge and with some rage.) But mainly its for getting people offstage since he has a better kill throw and combo throw at times.

 

[masato]

is S tier.

The thing with Bthrow is I can't think of a single backwards combo throw, they're all either kill throws or positioning. That might change how we rank them.

the only b-throws that i can think of that have notable combo potential:

's can be used as a DI mixup to connect an aerial and sometimes even a bouncing fish if the opponent falls for the DI trap.
's can true combo into a dash attack at low-mid percents on most characters. if the opponent does not DI the throw toward ZSS's back, it is notorious for leading into a flip jump spike if ZSS is at the ledge. it can also be used as a DI mixup to get a guaranteed b-air followup for a kill if the opponent falls for the DI trap (players such as Remzi use this often)

also ness should have his own tier

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's b-throw deals 10% and is a combo throw at low percents due to it's stupidly low endlag, it is a weight dependent throw tho. It has the same kbg and bkb as his f-throw but it launches on a sakurai angle making it kill later. It does still kill at reasonable percents tho.

At low percents B-throw to fair is true on the majority of the cast and deals 23%. At mid percents you can get b-throw to bair for 26% if they don't di away from you.

So it's pretty decent: high damage, low percent combos, kills, low endlag allows for followups and pressure. I'd say B? A? something around there?

Oh it's also a kill comfirm at 0% at the edge in customs. I really miss dragon rush

 

[Funbot28]

I Am so sorry for the delay, been so busy with schoolwork hadn't Thad the time to update the list. Will try to work it out tonight. My apologies again.

 

[MarshieMan]

As far as combo back airs, Zard pretty much has the best. ZSS has a pretty good one too

Zard: A
ZSS: B

As far as the rest of the cast, we need only make a list of kill percents with optimal DI, and go from there.

Most kill backthrows have long animations to give your opponent plenty of time to input optimal DI, and a competent opponent will be prepared for it. I personally wouldn't waste my time finding kill percents with no DI.

Also Funbot28 dont worry about it bro, youre doing a great job.

 

[JosePollo]

Lucas back throw:

• 10% damage; more than solid for a throw of any kind.
• 41° launch angle; nice and horizontal, which puts opponents in an unfavorable position off-stage due to Lucas's edge-guarding capabilities.
• 80 BKB, 65 KBG; 80 base gives back throw solid knockback at any percent when combined with 10% damage. In conjunction with a 41° angle, 65 KBG is more than enough to start killing at around 90-100% on any stage when near a ledge.
• Throws on frame 20, making it invincible throughout most of the start-up (invincibility on throws is 1-18).
• Long cooldown afterwards (33 frames; actionable on frame 53) makes it easy to punish in a doubles environment.
• Doesn't have any collateral hitboxes that can be applied in a teams battle.

Very solid kill throw, good for stage control and does decent damage, but not really much else. Definitely one of the cream-of-the-crop back throws, though, so I'd put it at least in A-tier.

Fox back throw:

• 8% total damage (throw: 2%; lasers: 2% x3); solid damage overall.
  • DI'ing down and away makes the follow-up lasers easy to avoid, which hurts the potential damage output of the throw.
• 45° launch angle; can be DI'd horizontally or vertically, though it doesn't really matter.
• 80 BKB, 85 KBG; the numbers look high, but the actual throw only has 2% of damage behind it, making back throw laughably weak. No kill power whatsoever.
• Throws on frame 10, meaning it can't be interrupted after it starts since Fox is invincible.
• Actionable frame 50 gives it long cooldown that's easy to punish in doubles.
• No collateral hitboxes to take advantage of in teams.

Pretty mediocre throw, overall. I wouldn't put it any higher than C-tier.

 

[ARGHETH]

Robin's Bthrow does 11% with 85 BKB and 60 KBG. Kills at ~150 near the ledge. A, I guess?
Corrin's...can go in C. 8.5 Damage, but doesn't kill or combo.

 

[MarshieMan]

The nice thing about Lucas's Bthrow is that the optimal Di escape for his Uthrow is also the wrong DI for his backthrow. So when opponents expect an Uthrow they may end up dying early to Bthrow.

Depending on the results from labbing kill percents, i could see it at S or A

 

[JosePollo]

The nice thing about Lucas's Bthrow is that the optimal Di escape for his Uthrow is also the wrong DI for his backthrow. So when opponents expect an Uthrow they may end up dying early to Bthrow.

Depending on the results from labbing kill percents, i could see it at S or A

Nahh. The angle on up throw is a straight 90°, so you can DI it in or away. You can't mix up DI with up throw, though it should be mentioned that back throw can mix up the DI for down throw. DI'ing in to avoid dying to back throw sets up for an easy PK Hoo Hah. Down throw is 80°, so DI'ing it out (inwards DI for back throw--DI mix-ups are weird) keeps you closer to the ground where Lucas can use his aerial mobility to reach you.

 

[Nah]

Corrin's F and Bthrows could be D really. They offer some damage and positional advantage and that's it. Robin's Bthrow would be what C is to me, since it's that+ is a halfway decent stock cap.

 

[adom4]

Ganon's B-throw is as average as you can get, 10% is good damage but it's weaker than Falcon's B-throw for some reason, usually KOing at around 150-160%, probably a C tier throw
Also nominating 's B-throw for F-tier, it's utterly worthless, i can't think of a single use for this throw.

 

[Lavani]

's bthrow is pretty useful. With Luma dead, it's her strongest punish option (11%+pummels), and the high BKB gets the opponent away from her to stall for Luma's return. If the opponent DIs expecting uthrow/dthrow, she can combo bthrow>fair/bair at low percents. It kills about as well as fthrow, but scales better with rage.

I think of it as B, but I also think of it as on par/better than the likes of throws being nominated for A, so...A, I guess?

is probably D in 1v1, but the throw has a powerful tipper that shouldn't be ignored in doubles.

 

[JosePollo]

is probably D in 1v1, but the throw has a powerful tipper that shouldn't be ignored in doubles.

Was gonna mention this. Don't know the exact frame data on the collateral hitbox there, but I've seen it kill unsuspecting bystanders on platforms (since her arm is angled upwards). Situational, but useful nonetheless.

 

[MarshieMan]

Nahh. The angle on up throw is a straight 90°, so you can DI it in or away. You can't mix up DI with up throw, though it should be mentioned that back throw can mix up the DI for down throw. DI'ing in to avoid dying to back throw sets up for an easy PK Hoo Hah. Down throw is 80°, so DI'ing it out (inwards DI for back throw--DI mix-ups are weird) keeps you closer to the ground where Lucas can use his aerial mobility to reach you.

Thank you, i was indeed mixing it up with Dthrow. I play against Lucas a lot and for some reason confused which throw could be used for a mix up.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Bthrow. Exactly the same as his Fthrow. Help connection between the two in doubles, kinda meh/bleh otherwise.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Shulks back throw in smash art is about the same kill power as Ness back throw. Ill wait for Masonomace and his wall of data to test my claim and provide other tidbits about shulks backthrow in other arts

EDIT: well close enough, Zapp Branniglenn gave the goods

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is it really wise to start talking about Bthrow now? I'm expecting further, vital discussion on the second Dthrow draft. But if you insist:

Spoiler: Bthrow data and kill % with optimal DI

Let me know if you have questions or if I made any errors on KB stats. I'm a bit too busy at the moment to proofread or provide my own thoughts on placement. The kill%s you can count on as they were finished weeks in advance.

 

[JosePollo]

Is it really wise to start talking about Bthrow now? I'm expecting further, vital discussion on the second Dthrow draft. But if you insist:

Spoiler: Bthrow data and kill % with optimal DI

Let me know if you have questions or if I made any errors on KB stats. I'm a bit too busy at the moment to proofread or provide my own thoughts on placement. The kill%s you can count on as they were finished weeks in advance.

Whoa. I knew Lucas's back throw was good, but I never realized it was the 2nd best (not counting knockback modifications like Arts and aura) killing back throw in the game.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so here is the final update for Down-Throw:

Spoiler: Down-Throw

TL;DR:
B -> A
B -> A
B -> A
A -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
B -> D
D -> C
D -> C
B -> C
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C
B -> C
C -> D
C -> D
C -> D

Ok so since thats finally done, lets start discussing Back-Throw since people have already been doing that. A preliminary list will be up shortly.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Ok so here is the final update for Down-Throw:

Spoiler: Down-Throw

TL;DR:
B -> A
B -> A
B -> A
A -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
B -> D
D -> C
D -> C
B -> C
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C
B -> C
C -> D
C -> D
C -> D

Ok so since thats finally done, lets start discussing Down-Throw since people have already been doing that. A preliminary list will be up shortly.

We already did down throw tho. You know the list we JUST did?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

We already did down throw tho. You know the list we JUST did?

thats just the final update for the list, since funbot didnt post it before bthrow discussion started

 

[Rizen]

Ok so here is the final update for Down-Throw:

Spoiler: Down-Throw

TL;DR:
B -> A
B -> A
B -> A
A -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
B -> D
D -> C
D -> C
B -> C
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C
B -> C
C -> D
C -> D
C -> D

Ok so since thats finally done, lets start discussing Down-Throw since people have already been doing that. A preliminary list will be up shortly.

It feels like you just ignored all the data on Link but maybe I'm unaware of other characters in B tier's kill confirms and combos off Dthrow. Here's Scizor Dthrow>Uair killing Zelda:
https://youtu.be/28CcXZ-6UvM?t=58

Anyway Link's Bthrow deal 7% and only gives stage control. Not very good.

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

Alright, I'll say it one more time. Fox dthrow isn't D-tier. How is bowser Jr dthrow, which does the same amount of damage and has no sort of combo or follow up that even remotely works, an entire tier higher? It also doesn't kill until 200% at the ledge, which is probably uthrow kill range anyway. People say "just DI away and use a fast attack or jump" on fox dthrow. But if you DI down/away, fox can true combo dash attack or even usmash. With good timing, some characters can be very reliably frame trapped by dthrow to bair. Also, there are percent ranges where you can actually true combo an RAR bair even with perfect DI, which, even if it isn't attainable all the time, proves that frame traps out of dthrow are legit, and lead directly into utilt juggles. Sure, if they have a really fast fair with decent range they can probably escape a good chunk of the time, but you can bait this out and cover their landing after they whiff, which is a favorable spot for fox. Also, it's worth mentioning that if the opponent doesn't DI or DI's in, fox gets ridiculous true follow ups, including uair. You can bait this out by using fthrow at the ledge, then combo a uair for the kill.

The throw itself might not be that great, and I can see if you are arguing that most of the work comes from fox rather than his dthrow data, but this throw puts the opponent in a great spot for fox to rack up damage, and even if you whiff a bair, dthrow has a nasty angle for setting up frame traps, or covering their landing if they jump, which fox is amazing at doing. This throw is likely better than half the dthrow's in C tier.

Regarding fox bthrow, this throw is absolute trash. It only does 8%, has no combos, tech chases, traps or anything because of the horrid endlag, It doesn't kill at meaningful percents, and it doesn't even have a low enough angle to be good at forcing low-ish recoveries. This throw literally does nothing well, except doing decent damage. This throw is likely a bottom 5 bthrow, and should be in the lowest tier.

 

[TDK]

Ganon's B-throw is as average as you can get, 10% is good damage but it's weaker than Falcon's B-throw for some reason, usually KOing at around 150-160%, probably a C tier throw
Also nominating 's B-throw for F-tier, it's utterly worthless, i can't think of a single use for this throw.

Roy can get B-throw to Up Smash at kill percents as a 50/50. anything but jump and they get smashed.

 

[Kofu]

So. Back throws.

is the best, no questions asked.

Actually has the second best growth of all back throws. It probably isn't the next best by the ledge (though it's still very good), but if you want another throw to kill from across the stage, this is it.

and are also very good at KOing regardless of stage position.

all have good positional kill throws that have high base knockback and do especially well at the ledge. They can also kill from across the stage, obviously, it's just harder.

have stock cap throws that usually need proximity to the ledge to work well. Meta Knight's competes for killing with his UThrow.

can all kill situationally. Falco's requires the laser to hit (and to be close to the ledge), Lucario needs high Aura, Olimar needs Blue Pikmin (UThrow is usually better), Shulk needs Smash art (though it makes it quite formidable.

 

[MarshieMan]

So. Back throws.

is the best, no questions asked.

Actually has the second best growth of all back throws. It probably isn't the next best by the ledge (though it's still very good), but if you want another throw to kill from across the stage, this is it.

and are also very good at KOing regardless of stage position.

all have good positional kill throws that have high base knockback and do especially well at the ledge. They can also kill from across the stage, obviously, it's just harder.

have stock cap throws that usually need proximity to the ledge to work well. Meta Knight's competes for killing with his UThrow.

can all kill situationally. Falco's requires the laser to hit (and to be close to the ledge), Lucario needs high Aura, Olimar needs Blue Pikmin (UThrow is usually better), Shulk needs Smash art (though it makes it quite formidable.

We already have the absolute lab results for kill percents of every characters Bthrow.

In my opinion, this tier list should merely be ranked in order of kill power, with Zard and ZSS at A tier for their limited combo ability. This tier list should only take a day or two, as there is very little discussion to even be had.

 

[arbustopachon]

Charizard 10/60/65/40/153
Palutena 10/65/70/40/154

i think Zard and Palu launch on a sakurai angle.
I find this really odd tho, Palutena should be killing earlier than Zard. It has better kbg and bkb. I know you the percentages might be 1% off give or take, but still it is odd. I guess its because of the throw animation?

 

[ARGHETH]

i think Zard and Palu launch on a sakurai angle.
I find this really odd tho, Palutena should be killing earlier than Zard. It has better kbg and bkb. I know you said the you said the percentages might be 1% off give or take, but still it is odd. I guess its because of the throw animation?

Sakurai angles launch at 40 degrees at high percents, which is probably why he put it as 40.

 

[MarshieMan]

Sakurai angles launch at 40 degrees at high percents, which is probably why he put it as 40.

Ive always wondered, how would a sakurai angle have any effect on a throw? Doesnt the sakurai angle only have special properties on grounded targets, and throws are never treated as grounded targets

 

[ARGHETH]

Ive always wondered, how would a sakurai angle have any effect on a throw? Doesnt the sakurai angle only have special properties on grounded targets, and throws are never treated as grounded targets

Nah, it has an effect on both grounded and aerial targets, they're just different. (why else would aerials have Sakurai angles?) Aerial high-knockback moves are 45 degrees while grounded ones are 40.
Also, source on throws not being treated as grounded targets? Throws have a bunch of special properties, so it honestly wouldn't surprise me if they get treated as a grounded target.

 

[MarshieMan]

Nah, it has an effect on both grounded and aerial targets, they're just different. (why else would aerials have Sakurai angles?) Aerial high-knockback moves are 45 degrees while grounded ones are 40.
Also, source on throws not being treated as grounded targets? Throws have a bunch of special properties, so it honestly wouldn't surprise me if they get treated as a grounded target.

Aerials would have sakurai angles because they can hit grounded opponents

I dont really know where this discussion is going honestly. Knockback and launch angle are only different between grounded and aerial opponents when there is a sakurai angle and the % isnt too high.
Everything i know about the sakurai angle comes from smash wiki, so i recognize my understanding of it to be a little off, but here is my current understanding of it:
For a move with a sakurai angle
-grounded opponents hit with it will not leave the ground, but rather slide, given that their percent is below a certain threshold.
-aerial opponents hit with it will be launched at 40° or 45°, im not sure which.
-thrown opponents are obviously not launched sliding across the ground, so logically they would be treated as airborne targets

Im pretty sure im wrong somewhere in my understanding.

It feels like you just ignored all the data on Link but maybe I'm unaware of other characters in B tier's kill confirms and combos off Dthrow. Here's Scizor Dthrow>Uair killing Zelda:
https://youtu.be/28CcXZ-6UvM?t=58

Anyway Link's Bthrow deal 7% and only gives stage control. Not very good.

I tested it myself, link does have that kill confirm for about a 15% range from 110%-125% on Mario and solid low % combos. He deserved A tier.

Fox could have moved up, Bowser Jr and Greninja could have moved down, and Falco should have moved up too.

All in all, the list was well made though, and im okay with moving forward.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I had no idea whether throws consider the target airborne or not. I made a guess at them being considered grounded just to avoid the "why does it say 361? What does that mean?". Now that I think about it more, it must be considering the victim airborne, as the 45 degree angle is constant at all %s. After all, you never see Charizard Bthrow somebody at 0% and they're launched at a near to 0 degree angle.

The way I see it with Bthrow placements, I think Ness is worthy of an exclusive S tier. There's a 20% gap in kill % between third and fourth place, and second place involves a level of aura unheard of in a competitive match. Lucario will have finished writing his will and died of lung cancer before 150%.

The A tier is much harder. As there are no major gaps between characters to pick and say is the cutoff. You could make A tier all the "likely" throws to ever secure a stock. Anything between Lucas and perhaps 160 or 170%, But ranking Bthrows like Lucas and Toon Link on the same tier as, say, Rosalina would be totally unfair. And ignoring the once in a blue moon Bthrow kill from Palutena as she's placed on the same garbo tier as Samus or Cloud is also unfair. So deciding on a A to B threshold should be the first priority. A C tier would be the rest, and a D tier can be built for just the five or so that are legally offensive to suggest using under any circumstance.

Roy can get B-throw to Up Smash at kill percents as a 50/50. anything but jump and they get smashed.

What? Roy's Bthrow has about 32-41 endlag depending on the character. He generally doesn't have more than a few frames of advantage. Even if he had the 20 or so necessary to run over and Usmash, they're too high to reach with that move before they can act. You must be thinking of Dthrow to Usmash, which sort of fits this description for lightweight fast fallers, but is both harder to perform and less generous % range of a kill confirm than Dthrow to grounded Blazer

i think Zard and Palu launch on a sakurai angle.
I find this really odd tho, Palutena should be killing earlier than Zard. It has better kbg and bkb. I know you the percentages might be 1% off give or take, but still it is odd. I guess its because of the throw animation?

Where the target is released in relation to the thrower is part of the throw's design. In these two throws, Palutena's Bthrow releases the victim from a point where they are directly above her. Charizard's releases them almost an entire character length away from his head, which is extended outward. You could say Charizard's Bthrow is considerably "disjointed". Ness and Wario also are like this, while examples of not so "disjointed" throws include Mario, Bowser, and Samus. If you want to see for yourself, I recommend training mode with 1/4x time (Hold L). Initiate the bthrow, then tap tap tap until you see the victim take damage, that's the point of release.

 

[MarshieMan]

I had no idea whether throws consider the target airborne or not. I made a guess at them being considered grounded just to avoid the "why does it say 361? What does that mean?". Now that I think about it more, it must be considering the victim airborne, as the 45 degree angle is constant at all %s. After all, you never see Charizard Bthrow somebody at 0% and they're launched at a near to 0 degree angle.

So i guess i was correct in my understanding. I even tested to see what angle Zards Bthrow launches at and it was consistent for every percent.

Also TDK was not thinking of Dthrow or Bthow, he was thinking of Fthrow.
Fhrow > Usmash is a 50/50 at certain percents

Also, i second that Ness has his own S tier. I also agree that we should determine the threshold for A to B tier.
In my opinion, A tier should be for all throws that have the potential to kill in a standard match. I think the cut off should be after Doc or maybe Falcon.

I think that the threshold for B to C tier should be Dedede. B tier is then basically every character who will rarely get a stock from a Bthrow, but it is still possible in higher % games or with rage.

C tier would then be everyone else, characters who will effectively never kill with a Bthrow but are still better than the bottom 6 mentioned previously by Zapp.

Also, shulk should be ranked based off of his (smash) Bthrow imo

Edit: also we need to determine how to rank Zard, Sheik, and ZSS, who are the only characters with notable combos off of Bthrow.

 

[MarshieMan]

I decided to put this in a new post, because its a completely different topic. If this is an issue, merge it with my previous post.

Ive thoroughly labbed Sheik's Bthrow > Bouncing fish combo

Notes:
-combo was tested with No DI, i recognize this affects the combo
-due to the throw not being weight dependent, and also being a horizontal combo throw, fall speed and weight have little effect on the reliability of this combo
-what does make a difference, however, is model size. Characters with larger hurtboxes were considerably more susceptable to this combo
-in all of my tests, i was only able to get this combo to be true on Mario once. He was at 20% and the inputs must have been practically frame perfect.
-I held towards my opponent while using bouncing fish, to make the attack go further faster. I also tapped B to initiate the kick at different times to try to get the combo to work.

The combo works consistently on Bowser, Ganondorf, Dedede, DK, ROB, and mewtwo, from around 20%-40%. There may be more.

Its probably better to use Fthrow in every situation, but im not a Sheik expert.

 

[Masonomace]

Bthrow is neat. No matter what, Bthrow isn't a bad throw regularly simply for the nice 12% you deal, but is poor due to not following up greatly on it. However, Bthrow is a very strong stage-control throw when a successful grab happens especially when we read ledge-getup with a safe dash-passing pivot grab. This causes us to be at the very end of the ledge & get a surprising kill with rage where not many characters can do this in a split moment. Bthrow being Shulk's most-damaging throw also means it hurts even more if we want to deal raw damage, 16.8%! Following up with Back Slash is not true as far as we're aware, but it's for sure a painful tech-chase punish if the tech is missed. Heck, the reason Back Slash followup is a thing is because we launch characters facing away from our front, & buffer deactivating back to Vanilla during Bthrow endlag means we can kill confirm if they miss tech near ledge. And of course, Bthrow is one of the strongest killing back throws so it should be feared to a degree.

Tips:
-The first hitbox of Bthrow being frame 18 is intangible, since every throw apparently is intangible from frame 1-18. Neat.
-Bthrow's collateral hit will never kill your teammate in doubles. It's a Sakurai angle that pokes them & brings them towards you. The range of this collateral hit is also pretty good.

I don't know how tiers are to be rated exactly, since it's rare for a Bthrow to be a combo throw as well as a kill throw for the majority. Shulk has no known true combos with Bthrow as far as I'm aware atm, but I know that a surprise pivot grab snatch in Speed or Smash art near the very end of ledge spells potential death at higher percents. It's also uncommon, but I prefer a Bthrow like Shulk's simply for the throw's launch effect sending characters facing towards blastline. This leaves their back wide open for a easy Back Slash followup confirming a solid kill. The Bthrows that launch characters like Shulk's Bthrow are:
&

Oh & until tier rating becomes clear, I guess I'll rate Shulk Bthrow high C, low B?

 

[BunbUn129]

Just caught up and I'm sort of surprised MK's d throw made it into S-tier. Not that I disagree with that.

...

MK's back throw is probably B-tier, maybe C. It does a good 10% damage, sends at a good angle for edge-guards, and kills at percents reasonable enough for it to be a useful stock-cap. It can also true combo into dash attack, up b, and even fair at different percents--but only if the opponent doesn't DI properly (away or up depending on percent and fall speed). Perhaps b throw's best use is as a counter to ledge-camping at lower percents, where d throw would lead into few--if any--combos.

Drawbacks include that it's only a stock-cap and therefore can't be relied on for killing, which contributes to MK's inconsistent (though good) KO'ing ability, as he has a notable "gap" in kill power from 120-170%, after up b set-ups stop working and until up and back throws start killing. While its follow-up potential is notable, all of them can be avoided by DI and/or teching (for fast-fallers).