Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Should not be in D, it has just 10 frames of endlag and does not send the victim very far. It's biggest issue is that it's a horizontal combo throw and Falco's movement stats are awful. DI away keeps you safe past 50 or so on most of the cast. As well as keeping you safe from aerial followups in general. Before that, there's Dthrow to Usmash and Dash attack if Falco knows your DI is consistently away. I'd say C because it's ruined by good players.

Should be C at the highest - in my opinion D. Same issue as Falco, but considerably worse. He has no guaranteed aerial followups on anybody DIing away from him, not even usual suspect, Sheik. He only has Dthrow to Dash attack at 0-10%. Remember that you can't buffer dash attack, but if you do perform it frame perfectly (instead of misinputting Ftilt or Fsmash), I think it's guaranteed on about half the cast at least.

Don't know what it's doing in B. It's well known this is not a combo throw, and it's Mewtwo's worst for damage. You're only free to attempt a followup just to force reactions from the opponent. In this regard, it's only as good as Fox or Clouds which also lack anything guaranteed but guessing games. Only has matchup relevance against Greninja, Yoshi, and Shield Shulk, who can escape Fthrow, but even then Bthrow fulfills the same niche because you have to be right at a ledge for that to kill earlier than Uthrow. I'm generally of the opinion that all throws that lack guaranteed combos deserve D and that you can move in others based on how bad their combo potentials are like:

I'm not impressed by the 11% combo of Dthrow to Nair that works exclusively at 0% on some characters who fail to DI. With proper DI behind Gunner, you're generally not in danger of getting trapped by Uair either when you air dodge. She won't catch up. Deserves D.

No combos, ties with cargo Dthrow for least damage. But Cargo Dthrow at least gets some use if you carry somebody off stage toward a blastzone. D.

Move down to C. A consistent combo exists, but it's mainly Dthrow to Uair, which is just 9%. You can get more damage than that with Fthrow.

Down to D. No combos, deals the same 7% damage all his throws deal. More endlag than Uthrow, even on light targets

Down to D. Comes extremely close to an Uair followup on sheiker characters, but it's not guaranteed.

I don't think this requires explanation at this point. Deserves D.

Also nothing going on.

Should move up to B. It is basically Ike's, but with one more frame of endlag. However, combo ranges are much more generous on Swordfighter because while it also has very high KBG, the launching hit is only half the damage. Of course, Ike doesn't care - Uthrow is his preferred combo throw. While I would claim that Swordfighter's is objectively better than Ike's I wouldn't call it a tier's worth of difference, and while neither character really has this happen in a real match, Ike's will kill off the top about 10% sooner than Swordfighter's. Swordfighter's Dthrow to Uair is 20% damage. It won't connect at high % ranges though, and the claim of Dthrow to Uair as a kill confirm I think is still largely in need of stress testing and hindered by the fact that Swordfighter's Uair is typically too staled for it to happen since it's the only move consistently comboing.

Marth and Lucina get Uair/Bair at low percents, so I'm not entirely sure they should be in D tier. I'd be okay with them staying, though. Pit has a bunch of combos off Dthrow, so they should be moved up a tier.
/ D->C?

Only on lightweights. Marth and Lucina do have Dthrow to reverse Up B consistently, but they need about 80% on the target, or they'll be at risk of a counterattack while they suffer free fall.

I'm generally happy with S and A. Maybe Metaknight and ROB need to switch spots, but it's a tough call. ROB's Uair is often too stale to kill when you need it because it's the only move of his that combos from dthrow. And I don't know the current verdict on how guaranteed Metaknight's ladder combo is and when. I think Mario could stand to drop to A, as opposed to Doc moving into A from B. Mario's doesn't suffer quite as bad as Falcon's from its weight dependency, but dying to a Dthrow combo should never happen due to smart stage picking and/or smart DI. Doc lacks the potential to carry people into the sky, as well as lacking Dthrow regrabs for massive damage at low percent. The big topic for him is Dthrow to Fair at around 60-70. It's wrongly assumed that, like Mario, you can DI away to avoid this, but that's wrong and kills a lot of ignorant opponents. Doc's air speed is worse, yes, but the throw has a higher angle. You want to mixup between toward and away DI since Fair is a very small hitbox, and the strong hit you want is not the first active frame. So being in range of the target is not enough, you need to be positioned just right to miss on the first active frame. As for who this is a true combo on, I think the consensus is, if you're as heavy as Diddy Kong, you can air dodge it, though that may not be 100% of the picture. It's also tested that Doc can frame trap some opponents that have managed to escape, but only if there's no platforms or ledge in the way. Dthrow to Fair stops being a concern altogether once they've accrued enough damage. 90 should be enough for even sheik, as Doc's jump height fails him. If they're high enough that you need to double jump, then it's already not guaranteed, because Fair needs to be buffered during jumpsquat. Doc's low to mid % combo game is also notably worse than Marios. While the attacks deal more damage individually, Uair can send them in the opposite direction if you hit them wrong. And if you want more than a single Uair, you want Doc moving at his maximum (slow) air speed - not gonna happen when they're DIing toward. Doc is most often at the mercy of the victim's choices compared to Mario who only needs to be in range of Uair. The best Doc gets is Dthrow to Uair to Up B, which is a ton of damage, but never a kill confirm.

 

[adom4]

Ganon's D-throw has follow ups on pretty much almost everyone except for a few ( & are a few of them).
D-throw Nair and Uair hit the floaties ( all get hit by D-throw Nair even if they DI away), and even then at higher % wizkick hits a decent amount of them (gets hit by wizkick until like 60%).
Also buffering dash attack isn't hard at all if you do it with the C-stick and dash attack put them in a godawful position & can even lead to more follow ups (especially if it's a sourspot DA).
Ganon's D-throw is nowhere near is bad as you make it out to be.

Also nominating 's D-throw for at least A tier.
His combos aren't as good as Mario after D-throw but if i'm not mistaken he has a kill confirm with D-throw -> Fair that works on a good chunk of the cast.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ganon's D-throw has follow ups on pretty much almost everyone except for a few ( & are a few of them).
D-throw Nair and Uair hit the floaties ( all get hit by D-throw Nair even if they DI away), and even then at higher % wizkick hits a decent amount of them (gets hit by wizkick until like 60%).
Also buffering dash attack isn't hard at all if you do it with the C-stick and dash attack put them in a godawful position & can even lead to more follow ups (especially if it's a sourspot DA).
Ganon's D-throw is nowhere near is bad as you make it out to be.

You're mistaken, all of those characters are too far to reach in time. And Cloud isn't floaty. I will grant that that's a DI mixup on Falcon. He can avoid Wizard's Foot if he DI's up and jumps or air dodges. But that puts him at risk of a Nair. And DI away naturally puts him at risk of Wizard's foot. No doubt this mixup can work on some others that aren't floaty.

 

[Nah]

Corrin's Dthrow should probably be lower than B. Proper DI lets you live a fair bit longer and it doesn't set up for anything, and it's more or less outclassed by Uthrow as a kill throw.

Why is Meta Knight S tier?

Isn't Dthrow an alternative way for him to start his ladder combo? I vaguely recall hearing that.

....there's gotta be someone here who knows about Meta Knight right?

 

[TDK]

Down Throw -> PP Fastfall Bair -> Down Tilt x3 -> Dash Attack -> Up Airs -> Shuttle Loop.

 

[MarshieMan]

Down Throw -> PP Fastfall Bair -> Down Tilt x3 -> Dash Attack -> Up Airs -> Shuttle Loop.

Although this combo is great in theory, and is a zero to death (the only one in 1.1.6 i can think of) its incredibly difficult. If you watch top level MK you wont ever see this combo in use. But because its technically possible, and eventually it will be seen in top level play, i think its enough for MK's Dthrow to be S.

Also MK can Dthrow > Up airs > Shuttle loop from around 25%-45% on the entire cast. Difficult? Very. But considering its a kill confirm off a grab at 25%, I'd say thats really powerful.


Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if one day MK's Dthrow combos become so popular that he would be X tier on a Dthrow tier list. Its a scary combo, if only people had it consistent.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I've had things like Arcthunder -> Dsmash, a string literally designed to combo, not register as a combo on the Training Mode C. Counter. So I rarely take the Counter as gospel as to what works and what doesn't.

That said, Robin Dthrow really only does become truly useful starting around 15-20% for followups. He's better off smacking them with an aerial, Elthunder, or a Bthrow before getting started with grab followups. Dthrow Jabs at 20-50, Dthrow Utilt at 40-60, Dthrow Nair at 65-90, and then the Dthrow Uair starts up from there.

But there are some characters where followups are difficult, particularly Toon Link and Lucario. Which is why Dthrow also happens to have a nifty KBG to where the opponent is sent far enough away that they can't directly challenge Robin without it being blocked in time, while also being low enough to where an airdodge will incur landing lag, so their best option is to jump. At which point Thunder, Arcfire, and Levin traps come into play as they go to land without a double jump, so they take damage at worst, or lose stage control at best.

Dthrow's both a combo throw and a gateway to get to work on Robin's zoning. It may not have guaranteed stuff all the time, but the threat of projectile combos with Robin's damage output after the fact helps mitigate this. And Checkmate works regardless, so every percent matters.

 

[MarshieMan]

I've had things like Arcthunder -> Dsmash, a string literally designed to combo, not register as a combo on the Training Mode C. Counter. So I rarely take the Counter as gospel as to what works and what doesn't.

That said, Robin Dthrow really only does become truly useful starting around 15-20% for followups. He's better off smacking them with an aerial, Elthunder, or a Bthrow before getting started with grab followups. Dthrow Jabs at 20-50, Dthrow Utilt at 40-60, Dthrow Nair at 65-90, and then the Dthrow Uair starts up from there.

But there are some characters where followups are difficult, particularly Toon Link and Lucario. Which is why Dthrow also happens to have a nifty KBG to where the opponent is sent far enough away that they can't directly challenge Robin without it being blocked in time, while also being low enough to where an airdodge will incur landing lag, so their best option is to jump. At which point Thunder, Arcfire, and Levin traps come into play as they go to land without a double jump, so they take damage at worst, or lose stage control at best.

Dthrow's both a combo throw and a gateway to get to work on Robin's zoning. It may not have guaranteed stuff all the time, but the threat of projectile combos with Robin's damage output after the fact helps mitigate this. And Checkmate works regardless, so every percent matters.

Nobody is saying Robin doesn't have a great Dthrow. All we're saying is it isn't AS good as other S tier throws.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I didn't imply otherwise. I'm just clarifying what Dthrow's purpose is.

Whether that makes it superior or inferior to other Dthrows in the game is of little importance to me compared to acknowledging what the move does in the first place.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

MK has a lot of crazy things still despite his nerfs. His down throw still combos into nearly everything, and the optimal followups like pp bair > dtilt lock (which really isn't that hard with practice, took me 20 minutes to be able to do it consistently) put floaties at the perfect percent for up air -> shuttle loop combos and can lead to 60+ combos on fastfallers (fastfall bair > dtilt lock > uptilt > back hit of up air > footstool > fair lock > followup is one of my favorites). It also eats Luma which just makes it even more of a **** matchup for Rosa

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Honestly think Ike and Doc's D-throw are a step above most B-Rank characters since they get strong guaranteed followups from their D-throws at low to mid percents (Doc also has a few high percent followups). Both should be A-Rank.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Honestly think Ike and Doc's D-throw are a step above most B-Rank characters since they get strong guaranteed followups from their D-throws at low to mid percents (Doc also has a few high percent followups). Both should be A-Rank.

Strong guaranteed followups describes B tier very neatly. There are even C tiers that fit that description, such as Samus, Pit, Mega Man, Ryu, Dedede, Falco (who should move up to C), Ganon (who should move down to C), and to some degree buster shulk. I'm much more concerned with cleaning the existing tiers. Some more I should have mentioned.

no combos. Universally 10 more endlag than Uthrow and also the weakest of her throws in damage. D.
No combos. Does basically the same thing as Fthrow, but deals 2 less damage. Only notable for a marginally better KO% at the ledge than Fthrow. But both require over 200% damage. Even though it's not weight based, it will always have more endlag than Fthrow as well. D.
Could move up to A. Dthrow to Fair is easy and consistent 18% combo until high %s, and there's Dthrow to Bair at low %s for 22% that leaves them in range of another Bair or Ftilt depending on how the victim responds. Then Dthrow to Uair for a kill confirm starting at about 100%. I believe only some heavyweights (Bowser, Charizard, Samus) are immune to the kill confirm by not being in range of the move, yet also too heavy for the Uair to kill when it is guaranteed. Though I could be wrong, at least for the common scenario that Dthrow is staled yet Uair isn't. The throw isn't weight based, so combos are consistent among the entire cast. Fast fallers and heavyweights are naturally the most lenient combo ranges. Dthrow Usmash also typically works at 0-15% for 20% damage. I see this on the same tier as ROB because while I don't think the kill confirm is quite as lenient, the damage output is better than ROB, and Dedede is using other attacks that don't stale Uair when he eventually needs it for the kill. ROB only has Uair, which is a big problem later.

Edit: Also, DI away is probably the bigger issue for Dedede's kill confirm, since he has such poor air speed to keep up. Perhaps the better rationale is that, like Falcon, kill confirms aren't likely, but consistent damage is.

 

[Rizen]

Ok so here is the preliminary list for Down-throw:

Spoiler: Down-Throw

View attachment 117922

Discuss!

>A rank, probably too but IDK what's true that he has. has low and high % combos and kill confirms off Dthrow on most of the cast. He deserves a higher tier than characters who only have low % combos and I see several in B like and . His damage is good too: Dthrow is 6% and it combos into (+) Utilt 9%, Usmash 18%, Nair 11%, Uair 15 or 13 late %, or upB 10-14% depending on the multi-hit.

 

[Litany]

Maybe it'd be helpful to set a standard for each tier. For example, my criteria would be:
S: Followups until kill percents & a kill confirm or 50/50
A: Followups until kill percents & a situational kill confirm or 50/50
B: Low % followups
C: Situational followups (with bad DI and such)
D: No followups

 

[kendikong]

Maybe it'd be helpful to set a standard for each tier. For example, my criteria would be:
S: Followups until kill percents & a kill confirm or 50/50
A: Followups until kill percents & a situational kill confirm or 50/50
B: Low % followups
C: Situational followups (with bad DI and such)
D: No followups

Just to add, any throw with good kill power would go up by 1 or 2 tiers. So Corrin and Shulk would fit in C or B.

Also, this is exactly why I think Zard and Palutena should go up to A. They have good kill potential while the rest of B don't.

And of course, a few that have already been mentioned in B tier should go down since they don't have followups.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc D-Throw should probs be top/high end of B or debatably bottom of A. Reasons listed above are pretty much standard, though it's worth noting that D-Throw > Fair is incredibly strong and that his throw's effectiveness overall is VERY hard to gauge.

As an example, vs. floaties and mid weights the reward is low at low percents until you can start getting Uair strings/platform stuff, but on fastfallers Doc's D-Throw at low % is pretty brutal. You usually get at least one D-Throw > USmash but some characters can be hit with this twice in a row (which is a pretty nice 21 or so percent off a grab, not counting freshness, multiply that by two if you're vulnerable to D-Throw > USmash twice).

D-Throw > turnaround Bair is also solid, and Doc has a really janky footstool combo off of D-Throw that requires a footstool DI read but takes you from 0 to 70% (assuming you're a character it works on), DI during the followups can probably change a few things but Doc will, at the very least, get good damage and a regrab, probably at least 40-55 against good DI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOemBhStYJo again though, in contrast to Mario's D-Throw which is great against the cast overall, Doc's is a lot more extreme. If you're a fastfaller/light character his D-Throw becomes really stupid. If you're not, it's just solid and nothing more. Quite extreme.

That being said, top of Bish, maybe low A if you weigh how his throw works against strictly top tiers (most of which constitute being vulnerable to its greatest effective strengths via their weight and/or fallspeed).

 

[Poisonous]

Dthrow fair: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kWqRZ0FG2Y88w8FMhGFq8e4Rh3s9XmfkzluhqBETyjU/edit#gid=0

It works against most meta characters (Cloud/Sheik/Bayonetta/Fox/ZSS/Diddy/Mewtwo/Corrin/Marth/MK/Pikachu/Megaman/Falcon/Lucario) as a true combo with a large window. It is a 50/50 before that (and if they airdodge, you can fastfall Fsmash to catch that on reaction).

At low %s, Doc can do dthrow usmash, dthrow bair into either a regrab or another bair, dthrow dair -> DocNado
At mid %s, Dthrow bair bair (or bair upb), Dthrow uair upb (Dthrow - pummel - bair - bair does ~ 35% and forces them offstage into an edgeguard situation where DocNado will kill them if it hits.
At mid-high %s, Dthrow fair to close the stock
At high %s some character even get true combo'd at kill %s by Dthrow UpB

He also has footstool stuff off dthrow on specific characters as shown in TTTTTsd's post. I really fail to see how it's outclassed by Mario's dthrow. Even looking at it in a vacuum, Mario would kill to get Doc's dthrow. To the "bu..bu..but my di !!" the throw happens quickly which makes it hard to DI and you have enough time to notice and drift back or forward to account for it without having to read it. I don't considered my reactions anything special and I don't main the character and I can reliably follow DI for it. If Lucas's Dthrow is S tier and ROB's is A tier, I fail to see how Doc's is B tier.

ALSO, those %s for dthrow fair? Those are without rage. With rage, you kill at ridiculous %s. I'm talking grab ZSS at ~50-60 near ledge with 120-130 rage and killing her.

I think it's unquestionably A tier at the lowest, killing most top tiers off a grab at 70% without rage alone seems amazing. But this throw has high damage potential too!


Wario's dthrow definitely isn't B tier. It's probably in the middle to low C tier. It doesn't lead to guaranteed followups past low %s (where usually only fast fallers are forced into a tech chase situation), but it forces your opponent to do something. If they tech, they risk tech chase situations with dash attack (which could even lead to more tech chase situations) or half waft/some punish on tech roll towards Wario or in place. If they jump, they're above Wario without a jump and that's just where Wario likes em. If they throw a move out, they're too low for it to AC and Wario can punish the endlag. All in all, not useless but still kinda poor.

 

[MarshieMan]

Dthrow fair: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kWqRZ0FG2Y88w8FMhGFq8e4Rh3s9XmfkzluhqBETyjU/edit#gid=0

It works against most meta characters (Cloud/Sheik/Bayonetta/Fox/ZSS/Diddy/Mewtwo/Corrin/Marth/MK/Pikachu/Megaman/Falcon/Lucario) as a true combo with a large window. It is a 50/50 before that (and if they airdodge, you can fastfall Fsmash to catch that on reaction).

At low %s, Doc can do dthrow usmash, dthrow bair into either a regrab or another bair, dthrow dair -> DocNado
At mid %s, Dthrow bair bair (or bair upb), Dthrow uair upb (Dthrow - pummel - bair - bair does ~ 35% and forces them offstage into an edgeguard situation where DocNado will kill them if it hits.
At mid-high %s, Dthrow fair to close the stock
At high %s some character even get true combo'd at kill %s by Dthrow UpB

He also has footstool stuff off dthrow on specific characters as shown in TTTTTsd's post. I really fail to see how it's outclassed by Mario's dthrow. Even looking at it in a vacuum, Mario would kill to get Doc's dthrow. To the "bu..bu..but my di !!" the throw happens quickly which makes it hard to DI and you have enough time to notice and drift back or forward to account for it without having to read it. I don't considered my reactions anything special and I don't main the character and I can reliably follow DI for it. If Lucas's Dthrow is S tier and ROB's is A tier, I fail to see how Doc's is B tier.

ALSO, those %s for dthrow fair? Those are without rage. With rage, you kill at ridiculous %s. I'm talking grab ZSS at ~50-60 near ledge with 120-130 rage and killing her.

I think it's unquestionably A tier at the lowest, killing most top tiers off a grab at 70% without rage alone seems amazing. But this throw has high damage potential too!


Wario's dthrow definitely isn't B tier. It's probably in the middle to low C tier. It doesn't lead to guaranteed followups past low %s (where usually only fast fallers are forced into a tech chase situation), but it forces your opponent to do something. If they tech, they risk tech chase situations with dash attack (which could even lead to more tech chase situations) or half waft/some punish on tech roll towards Wario or in place. If they jump, they're above Wario without a jump and that's just where Wario likes em. If they throw a move out, they're too low for it to AC and Wario can punish the endlag. All in all, not useless but still kinda poor.

My opinion on Doc's Dthrow has definitely improved through this discussion. And as i said before, i also think its deserving of A tier.

A few things though:
-Personally i still think mario's is better though. Although Doc's has the potential to deal more damage, Mario's is more consistent(both in ease, as well as working on more characters) and is still capable of easily dealing 40%+ damage and KOing.

-Doc's KO confirms and extended combos require committing to DI

-In my eyes, Lucas and Doc have very similar situations with their Dthrows. Both have the potential for high damage output, as well as footstool extended combos and a KO confirm later. Lucas, however, has much easier combos that work on everyone, as opposed to a select few.

-It's not really fair to compare ROB and doc so superficially. They each have different advantages and they more or less cancel eachother out. Doc's is better though.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Maybe it'd be helpful to set a standard for each tier. For example, my criteria would be:
S: Followups until kill percents & a kill confirm or 50/50
A: Followups until kill percents & a situational kill confirm or 50/50
B: Low % followups
C: Situational followups (with bad DI and such)
D: No followups

By this criteria, Robin would be S tier.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

By this criteria, Robin would be S tier.

Well, it's not the criteria. Many people have previously agreed it's not S for their own reasons. But if it were, Robin only meets half the criteria. Just using Mario as an example. Mario can get a free Nair on Robin until 20% when he starts trading against Robin's Jab. At this stage though he can still double jump to avoid followups entirely, as he could have earlier as well. Dthrow to Jab will not even connect until about 40, where he can jump out to avoid the rest of the combo after jab 1. From 40-62, Robin can guarantee single Utilt - that's a 12% combo. After this, Mario cannot be reached, and DI starts to make a difference. Aerials are not possible until about 80% when Mario stops air dodging or double jumping past. And I know fast fallers like Sheik have much less opportunity to escape, but that's the case with every combo in this game and doesn't require mention.

 

[MarshieMan]

I feel like ranking back throw will be significantly easier than these other throws

 

[Litany]

I'd agree with Zapp, Robin's followups aren't really anything special until kill percents. As mentioned, my guidelines aren't official; just kinda a general standard to which people can agree on if they choose.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Jigglypuff's down throw is by no stretch of the imagination better than Sonic's. Also, I feel like Mega Man's could move up a little bit.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Jigglypuff's down throw is by no stretch of the imagination better than Sonic's. Also, I feel like Mega Man's could move up a little bit.

They're not ordered within the tiers.

 

[Ffamran]

Should not be in D, it has just 10 frames of endlag and does not send the victim very far. It's biggest issue is that it's a horizontal combo throw and Falco's movement stats are awful. DI away keeps you safe past 50 or so on most of the cast. As well as keeping you safe from aerial followups in general. Before that, there's Dthrow to Usmash and Dash attack if Falco knows your DI is consistently away. I'd say C because it's ruined by good players.

Or its knockback since it will start sending people out far... And the 50 degree launch angle since it's going to be easily DI-able. Then again, we don't want a Robin D-throw on Falco considering the absurdity of it. If only it was a 50/50 style throw, but not as crazy as Melee's.

DI it, tech it, or if you have access, use a fast aerial or fast and/or armored/invincible Special to stop any followups from Falco even during low percents since Falco has to run after you no matter what percent D-throw is used at.

He's really only going to get dash attack, Nair, Fair, or Bair and of those options, dash attack can be avoided by teching, Nair is the most damaging because he can chain into them, but it's short-ranged and Falco need to jump which means he's going to be in the air with his slow air speed, Fair's startup plus his 6 frame jump and DI can make it very unsafe, Bair is actually unsafe against some characters at low percents due to it having no base knockback, so he needs to land to deal with its lower landing lag or auto-cancel compared to its normal recovery. Up Smash works better on fast-fallers, but it's committal since if Falco Up Smashes, he's not going anywhere; reverse jump-canceled Up Smash will have slide further, but at that point, you might as well just Bair.

At mid- to high-percents, none of those options work unless you let them happen. One option, however, that can work reliably is aerial Blaster. At most, 2 lasers which is 6% unstaled, but still something. D-throw is the only real set-up for Blaster. Not as great as if they were possible, D-throw to Charge Shot, D-throw to Sun Salutation, or even D-throw to Hadouken and Shakunetsu, but it's still something for Falco to pressure from afar. Only really works since aerial Blaster is frame 9 on startup, lasers still travel moderately quick, and aerial Blaster's rate of fire is faster (by 7 frames per shot), but of course, the risk of this is aerial Blaster's 41 frame recovery which doesn't really matter at that far of a range and its low set knockback which is why Blaster should never be used at low percents or even mid-percents from D-throw.

Fox's D-throw is kind of similar to Falco's; similar problem of DI, teching, and options stuffing out Fox's, its angle and knockback, but also higher recovery at 21 frames. Fox can do similar things, but he doesn't have Falco's Nair to chain Nairs and Fox can probably use Blaster to followup at mid- to high percents, but without any knockback, and compared to just running up and pressuring, it's not as "useful". Falco makes use of his 10 recovery D-throw for low percent set-ups, but because of his low horizontal mobility combined with D-throw itself, he can't get much out of it past that; Fox makes use of his raw speed for his D-throw set-ups, but because of D-throw itself, especially the higher recovery, he can't get much of it past low-percents.

Between the 2, Falco's low percent set-ups are more "guaranteed", but in the long-run, it's the weaker throw in terms of damage and Falco's ability to do anything significant since he's too slow to run up and pressure after it. Fox's low-percent set-ups are shakier because of the higher recovery, but in the long-run, it's the stronger throw in damage and Fox's raw ground speed can still allow him to pressure with it. Falco and Fox are much more dependent on their U-throw for set-ups which has similar differences; Falco's set-ups are more guaranteed and U-throw is a stock cap, but as Falco's overall aerials (and moves in general) are weaker in KO power than Fox's, especially vertically, it's not as threatening; Fox's is more devastating considering his much stronger Uair, but Fox's won't realistically KO and it's a set-up not being able to combo at any percent. Anyway, I digress.

They're pretty shaky throws; low-percent niche throws like their F-throws. I think they're fine where they are at D-tier. Yes, Falco can use it for low-percent set-ups, yes, Falco's Nair chains can rack up a lot of damage, but that's it. After that, D-throw is pretty much pointless like F-throw and B-throw are for both Falco and Fox. All you get is positioning which for Falco is at most 7% with F-throw to 4% at worse with U-throw where he can at least set-up with. The others are 6% B-throw whiffed laser and 5% D-throw. Fox on the other hand has to choose between 2 7% throws, F- and D-throw, and 2 at worst, 2% throws, U- and B-throw missing all the laser followups. Where the hell did you learn to shoot, Fox? The Stormtrooper Academy? Yeah, that 2% U-throw is looking mighty fine when Fox knows if he lands a Uair, you're dead. They don't do a lot of damage, positioning is at best, average between their other throws and bad compared to other characters with more damaging D-throws, and their set-ups aren't that rewarding. Fox can run up and Bair you, but that's it since Bair is going to send you flying while Nair isn't going to do much, Uair and Fair are risky when used that low, and Dair isn't a horizontal move. U-throw lead to Uair juggles which is devastating not to mention Fox's ability to trap landings.

I'm with Falco staying at D-tier or if he moves up, Fox's to C-tier as well. Falco's low percent follow-up edge isn't really enough in my opinion as Fox can just do the same things, but through his raw speed to make up for the higher recovery. Similar, not so good D-throws with similar problems.

 

[MarshieMan]

Or its knockback since it will start sending people out far... And the 50 degree launch angle since it's going to be easily DI-able. Then again, we don't want a Robin D-throw on Falco considering the absurdity of it. If only it was a 50/50 style throw, but not as crazy as Melee's.

DI it, tech it, or if you have access, use a fast aerial or fast and/or armored/invincible Special to stop any followups from Falco even during low percents since Falco has to run after you no matter what percent D-throw is used at.

He's really only going to get dash attack, Nair, Fair, or Bair and of those options, dash attack can be avoided by teching, Nair is the most damaging because he can chain into them, but it's short-ranged and Falco need to jump which means he's going to be in the air with his slow air speed, Fair's startup plus his 6 frame jump and DI can make it very unsafe, Bair is actually unsafe against some characters at low percents due to it having no base knockback, so he needs to land to deal with its lower landing lag or auto-cancel compared to its normal recovery. Up Smash works better on fast-fallers, but it's committal since if Falco Up Smashes, he's not going anywhere; reverse jump-canceled Up Smash will have slide further, but at that point, you might as well just Bair.

At mid- to high-percents, none of those options work unless you let them happen. One option, however, that can work reliably is aerial Blaster. At most, 2 lasers which is 6% unstaled, but still something. D-throw is the only real set-up for Blaster. Not as great as if they were possible, D-throw to Charge Shot, D-throw to Sun Salutation, or even D-throw to Hadouken and Shakunetsu, but it's still something for Falco to pressure from afar. Only really works since aerial Blaster is frame 9 on startup, lasers still travel moderately quick, and aerial Blaster's rate of fire is faster (by 7 frames per shot), but of course, the risk of this is aerial Blaster's 41 frame recovery which doesn't really matter at that far of a range and its low set knockback which is why Blaster should never be used at low percents or even mid-percents from D-throw.

Fox's D-throw is kind of similar to Falco's; similar problem of DI, teching, and options stuffing out Fox's, its angle and knockback, but also higher recovery at 21 frames. Fox can do similar things, but he doesn't have Falco's Nair to chain Nairs and Fox can probably use Blaster to followup at mid- to high percents, but without any knockback, and compared to just running up and pressuring, it's not as "useful". Falco makes use of his 10 recovery D-throw for low percent set-ups, but because of his low horizontal mobility combined with D-throw itself, he can't get much out of it past that; Fox makes use of his raw speed for his D-throw set-ups, but because of D-throw itself, especially the higher recovery, he can't get much of it past low-percents.

Between the 2, Falco's low percent set-ups are more "guaranteed", but in the long-run, it's the weaker throw in terms of damage and Falco's ability to do anything significant since he's too slow to run up and pressure after it. Fox's low-percent set-ups are shakier because of the higher recovery, but in the long-run, it's the stronger throw in damage and Fox's raw ground speed can still allow him to pressure with it. Falco and Fox are much more dependent on their U-throw for set-ups which has similar differences; Falco's set-ups are more guaranteed and U-throw is a stock cap, but as Falco's overall aerials (and moves in general) are weaker in KO power than Fox's, especially vertically, it's not as threatening; Fox's is more devastating considering his much stronger Uair, but Fox's won't realistically KO and it's a set-up not being able to combo at any percent. Anyway, I digress.

They're pretty shaky throws; low-percent niche throws like their F-throws. I think they're fine where they are at D-tier. Yes, Falco can use it for low-percent set-ups, yes, Falco's Nair chains can rack up a lot of damage, but that's it. After that, D-throw is pretty much pointless like F-throw and B-throw are for both Falco and Fox. All you get is positioning which for Falco is at most 7% with F-throw to 4% at worse with U-throw where he can at least set-up with. The others are 6% B-throw whiffed laser and 5% D-throw. Fox on the other hand has to choose between 2 7% throws, F- and D-throw, and 2 at worst, 2% throws, U- and B-throw missing all the laser followups. Where the hell did you learn to shoot, Fox? The Stormtrooper Academy? Yeah, that 2% U-throw is looking mighty fine when Fox knows if he lands a Uair, you're dead. They don't do a lot of damage, positioning is at best, average between their other throws and bad compared to other characters with more damaging D-throws, and their set-ups aren't that rewarding. Fox can run up and Bair you, but that's it since Bair is going to send you flying while Nair isn't going to do much, Uair and Fair are risky when used that low, and Dair isn't a horizontal move. U-throw lead to Uair juggles which is devastating not to mention Fox's ability to trap landings.

I'm with Falco staying at D-tier or if he moves up, Fox's to C-tier as well. Falco's low percent follow-up edge isn't really enough in my opinion as Fox can just do the same things, but through his raw speed to make up for the higher recovery. Similar, not so good D-throws with similar problems.

.. you realise fox and falco have completely different Dthrows right

Like, theyre nothing alike in every way except they look similar. You cant even compare the two.


-Fox has no gauranteed follow ups if the opponent has competent DI, falco does. Fox doesnt even have throw combos

-Fox Dthrow Uair is not a thing

-Fox Uthrow > Uair isnt a thing either, you must think this is a melee thread or something

-Falco Uthrow > Uair > Bair is a 32 damage true combo

-Falco has significantly better follow ups off his Dthrow than Fox. For example, on mario with optimal DI:
-Dthrow > RAR Bair > Grab > Dthrow > FF Nair > Uair (44% damage)
-Dthrow > FF nair x2 > Uair (37%)

-In what world would a falco opt for Dthrow > Blaster x2? Thats like an 11% combo, and its not even a "combo" really, just a horrible mix up option.

-The main drawback to Falco's Dthrow is exactly what Zapp said. Its a horizontal combo throw, and Falco's poor mobility limits follow ups. Falco's Dthrow is strictly a low % combo throw. And a pretty decent one at that.

(Oh, and fox Dthrow > Bair only deals 14%. Which is hardly threatening..)

 

[kendikong]

I have spent a couple hours labbing Zard's Dthrow to double jump Fair combo on the entire cast

Here's the results for what percentage the combo works on.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-K6cHwQs4xAo7mI8M-Id8gy2dcQyEMmHUGKVoBA4_r8/edit#gid=0

NOTES:
1. Zard's combo works on much more of the cast than I previously thought (not only just on fastfallers).
2. Done in training mode, so no rage is accounted for.
3. All characters are using the optimal DI against dthrow, which is holding up and away. Zard's combo will work on more percentages than shown if the opponent is using DI away or DI down and away instead of DI up and away
4. Note that most characters will die to dthrow>fair around 80% near the ledge. If they use optimal DI away and get hit anyways, they will die even earlier (~70%).
5. If Zard has some amount of rage, the combo will turn into a 50/50 instead.
6. Zard's combo requires precise timing on a lot of the characters. I did my best to find the maximum percentage that I could achieve a true combo with.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

.. you realise fox and falco have completely different Dthrows right

Like, theyre nothing alike in every way except they look similar. You cant even compare the two.


-Fox has no gauranteed follow ups if the opponent has competent DI, falco does. Fox doesnt even have throw combos

-Fox Dthrow Uair is not a thing

-Fox Uthrow > Uair isnt a thing either, you must think this is a melee thread or something

-Falco Uthrow > Uair > Bair is a 32 damage true combo

-Falco has significantly better follow ups off his Dthrow than Fox. For example, on mario with optimal DI:
-Dthrow > RAR Bair > Grab > Dthrow > FF Nair > Uair (44% damage)
-Dthrow > FF nair x2 > Uair (37%)

-In what world would a falco opt for Dthrow > Blaster x2? Thats like an 11% combo, and its not even a "combo" really, just a horrible mix up option.

-The main drawback to Falco's Dthrow is exactly what Zapp said. Its a horizontal combo throw, and Falco's poor mobility limits follow ups. Falco's Dthrow is strictly a low % combo throw. And a pretty decent one at that.

(Oh, and fox Dthrow > Bair only deals 14%. Which is hardly threatening..)

Actually, Falco's D-throw being a horizontal combo throw does have its benefits. Since Falco has an amazing initial dash, something that he can do is D-throw --> initial dash once --> regrab (if opponent airdodges), Dash attack (if opponent attacks or techs, or perform one of his landing traps (if the opponent jumps). This stuff isn't guaranteed, but they are good mixups.

 

[MarshieMan]

Actually, Falco's D-throw being a horizontal combo throw does have its benefits. Since Falco has an amazing initial dash, something that he can do is D-throw --> initial dash once --> regrab (if opponent airdodges), Dash attack (if opponent attacks or techs, or perform one of his landing traps (if the opponent jumps). This stuff isn't guaranteed, but they are good mixups.

He has the 46th worst air speed and the 43rd worst run speed. Him having a horizontal throw combo is bad. Besides, my entire post was only regarding low percent combos, in which case he can do a lot better than those weak mix ups you mentioned.

We all can agree hes pretty bad past mid%

Edit: also his landing traps require the opponent to air dodge(and also be a fast faller), which no competent player would do. The more optimal option is to just jump away or counter attack with a quick disjoint.

 

[Masonomace]

K kendikong I'm not trying to discredit your hard work with Zard Dthrow → DJ FAir labbing in Training Mode, but I saw the percentage for Shulk being 100% as the max percentage. So I tested the same scenario, had Shulk DI away since I did this going towards the right ledge, & frame skipped aka buffered the entire sequence frame-perfectly in several ways & could not true combo Shulk buffering airdodge. I may not have the exact sequence of said frames to input said combo, but the different timings done to when to foxtrot / dash forward one or two frames, whether or not to just jumpsquat & hold a Full Hop into a quick buffered Doublejump one or two frames after. . .it's very specific maybe even literally frame-perfect if it can really true combo Shulk at the max of 100%.

 

[Ffamran]

.. you realise fox and falco have completely different Dthrows right

Like, theyre nothing alike in every way except they look similar. You cant even compare the two.

I said they're similar D-throws. Never did I say they are the same. They are both horizontal set-ups; you can compare them.

-Fox has no gauranteed follow ups if the opponent has competent DI, falco does. Fox doesnt even have throw combos

Competent DI as Zapp, you, and I pointed out makes Falco's D-throw followups after low percents avoidable. After that, it becomes a set-up throw like Fox's where you have to read what your opponent does.

The keyword here I guess is "followups". When I referred to something as a followup, it is not a combo or a "true combo" as some call it where nothing can be done to escape it e.g. Ryu special-canceling his jab 1 to Shoryuken or even a "string" where you can potentially escape it e.g. Fox's late Nair to Up Smash.

Following up on that, set-ups are just that. Marth can set-up a Side Smash from jab 1; Marth cannot combo Side Smash from jab 1. Falco and Fox's D-throws are both set-up throws where they can potentially followup with whatever option. Falco's just happens to be able to string stuff at low percents from D-throw and whatever stuff he strings into can potentially combo.

-Fox Dthrow Uair is not a thing

-Fox Uthrow > Uair isnt a thing either, you must think this is a melee thread or something

If your opponent does something stupid, Uair is possible. Is it true? Is it a combo? Is it a string? No, and I never said it was. It's a possible option.

Fox's U-throw can set-up Uair just as Falco's U-throw can set-up Uair after mid-percents. It's a followup dependent on reading our opponent; it is not a combo.

-In what world would a falco opt for Dthrow > Blaster x2? Thats like an 11% combo, and its not even a "combo" really, just a horrible mix up option.

When he has no other option? At mid to high percents when Falco can't physically catch up to his opponent, Blaster can work as a followup. Never did I say it was a good option and never did I say it was a combo. It's an option Falco can take if he choose to use D-throw at mid to high percents for whatever reason instead of U-throw. It's an option to just tack on damage. Would also help with unstaling stuff.

-The main drawback to Falco's Dthrow is exactly what Zapp said. Its a horizontal combo throw, and Falco's poor mobility limits follow ups. Falco's Dthrow is strictly a low % combo throw. And a pretty decent one at that.

(Oh, and fox Dthrow > Bair only deals 14%. Which is hardly threatening..)

Its knockback also limits D-throw as it grows fairly quickly. If it didn't, then it would have been possible for Falco to have a D-throw that could work at mid to even high percents in spite of his mobility or whatever else that would limit him. (Edit: Thought of the wrong thing with Robin's D-throw) Case in point: DK's cargo U-throw, Ike's U-throw, and pre-patch Luigi's D-throw.

Also, Fox's D-throw to Bair would do 20%; 7% (D-throw) + 13% (Bair).

My point in my previous post is that Falco's D-throw is very niche. Yes, he can get a lot of damage from it, but it's only at low percents. After that, it's not really useful for anything outside of wacky set-ups like D-throw to Blaster. Because of the low range where it can be used to string into stuff, I don't see it as being a C-tier D-throw. C-tier should be at least able to set-up into mid-percents which Falco's can't. D-tier should be low-percent and F-tier should be can't do jack from them where followups are pipe dreams.

 

[kendikong]

K kendikong I'm not trying to discredit your hard work with Zard Dthrow → DJ FAir labbing in Training Mode, but I saw the percentage for Shulk being 100% as the max percentage. So I tested the same scenario, had Shulk DI away since I did this going towards the right ledge, & frame skipped aka buffered the entire sequence frame-perfectly in several ways & could not true combo Shulk buffering airdodge. I may not have the exact sequence of said frames to input said combo, but the different timings done to when to foxtrot / dash forward one or two frames, whether or not to just jumpsquat & hold a Full Hop into a quick buffered Doublejump one or two frames after. . .it's very specific maybe even literally frame-perfect if it can really true combo Shulk at the max of 100%.

Yes it was pretty difficult for me to get a true combo at the max percentages for a lot of the characters and I already have tons of practice with Zard's dthrow combo. You really have to be frame perfect with the dash and the timing for the double jumps.

 

[MarshieMan]

I said they're similar D-throws. Never did I say they are the same. They are both horizontal set-ups; you can compare them.

They arent even similar. Theyre completely different in every way. BKB, KBG, angle, follow up options, positioning, reward. Dont compare them. The only thing thats similar is how they look and that theyre both space animals.

Competent DI as Zapp, you, and I pointed out makes Falco's D-throw followups after low percents avoidable. After that, it becomes a set-up throw like Fox's where you have to read what your opponent does.

The keyword here I guess is "followups". When I referred to something as a followup, it is not a combo or a "true combo" as some call it where nothing can be done to escape it e.g. Ryu special-canceling his jab 1 to Shoryuken or even a "string" where you can potentially escape it e.g. Fox's late Nair to Up Smash.

Following up on that, set-ups are just that. Marth can set-up a Side Smash from jab 1; Marth cannot combo Side Smash from jab 1. Falco and Fox's D-throws are both set-up throws where they can potentially followup with whatever option. Falco's just happens to be able to string stuff at low percents from D-throw and whatever stuff he strings into can potentially combo.

Did you read my post? Falco has /gauranteed/ follow ups. As in they are unavoidable. As in they cannot be avoided. As in you can DI as much as you want, mash air dodge as much as you want, pray as much as you want; youre still gonna get hit. They aren't "strings" they're true combos. Yeah, past low percent theyre not gauranteed, but unlike fox who has literally nothing at any percent, falco can actually true combo till about 20-30%.

After that theyre both set ups? Yeah, like hundreds of moves. Its nothing unique to fox and falco. And competent opponents avoid basic set ups.

If your opponent does something stupid, Uair is possible. Is it true? Is it a combo? Is it a string? No, and I never said it was. It's a possible option.

Fox's U-throw can set-up Uair just as Falco's U-throw can set-up Uair after mid-percents. It's a followup dependent on reading our opponent; it is not a combo.

??? Have you used Fox's Uthrow in this game. Your argument is "well his up throw can SET UP an up air, but it wont combo!" Well literally every up throw in the game can set up an Uair. Because up throws.. well, throw UP. And when your opponent is above you.. up air.

Fox Uthrow > Uair is a useless set up that nobody goes for.

Also, Falco can true combo Uthrow > Uair well into mid-high%. Its never true for fox.

When he has no other option? At mid to high percents when Falco can't physically catch up to his opponent, Blaster can work as a followup. Never did I say it was a good option and never did I say it was a combo. It's an option Falco can take if he choose to use D-throw at mid to high percents for whatever reason instead of U-throw. It's an option to just tack on damage. Would also help with unstaling stuff.

Is Dthrow > Blaster an option? Yeah. But a reasonable falco would never do that, as you said above he could just Uthrow. So how is there any validity to that argument? His Uthow and Bthrow by themself deal more damage than Dthrow > Blaster

Its knockback also limits D-throw as it grows fairly quickly. If it didn't, then it would have been possible for Falco to have a D-throw that could work at mid to even high percents in spite of his mobility or whatever else that would limit him. (Edit: Thought of the wrong thing with Robin's D-throw) Case in point: DK's cargo U-throw, Ike's U-throw, and pre-patch Luigi's D-throw.

Also, Fox's D-throw to Bair would do 20%; 7% (D-throw) + 13% (Bair).

KBG limits every combo in the game, not just Falco's Dthrow. I personally think his mobility is a bigger damper on his Dthrow follow ups than the KBG.

And that 20% is only if you get the sweet-spot on Bair. When i tested it for myself i saw 14% and forgot that there was a sweet-spot.

My point in my previous post is that Falco's D-throw is very niche. Yes, he can get a lot of damage from it, but it's only at low percents. After that, it's not really useful for anything outside of wacky set-ups like D-throw to Blaster. Because of the low range where it can be used to string into stuff, I don't see it as being a C-tier D-throw. C-tier should be at least able to set-up into mid-percents which Falco's can't. D-tier should be low-percent and F-tier should be can't do jack from them where followups are pipe dreams.

I dont know if falco should be B, C, D, or F tier. I dont particularly care, because i consider the criteria for choosing tiers on attacks overly subjective.

My main argument was how Falco's Dthrow differs from Fox's, and how Falco's was objectively better.

Also you seemed to ignore the part where i referenced Falco's low % combo ability, which conveniently outclasses Fox's low % combo ability. Thats the main difference. Falco has pretty solid low % combos, while fox doesn't. Which is why i think his throw is better.

Edit: ah one more thing. In your first post you said that both falco and fox rely more on Uthrows than Dthrows. This is wrong, Fox will typically opt for a Dthrow and go for a Bair (and possible frame trap) while Falco will opt for Uthrow. This isnt because Fox has a superior Dthrow, its just because Falco has better throws in general, and his Uthrow has really good true followups.

 

[Galaxeon]

Maybe it'd be helpful to set a standard for each tier. For example, my criteria would be:
S: Followups until kill percents & a kill confirm or 50/50
A: Followups until kill percents & a situational kill confirm or 50/50
B: Low % followups
C: Situational followups (with bad DI and such)
D: No followups

This would make between A and B, given that it does have situational kill confirms, but only has low % followups before that. I'd say B.
By this criteria would be D, but the kill potential would put her in C I think, which is where she belongs.

But I think S tier should only be for throws that have follow-ups from very low percents to high percent with the possibility of death. Basically, throws you'll use every time throughout the game at all percent ranges. , and definetly fit this tier I think, there are probably more, but not that many. We can't put every character with some kind of 50/50 in S tier, and not all 50/50 are equivalent.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This would make between A and B, given that it does have situational kill confirms, but only has low % followups before that. I'd say B.
By this criteria would be D, but the kill potential would put her in C I think, which is where she belongs.

But I think S tier should only be for throws that have follow-ups from very low percents to high percent with the possibility of death. Basically, throws you'll use every time throughout the game at all percent ranges. , and definetly fit this tier I think, there are probably more, but not that many. We can't put every character with some kind of 50/50 in S tier, and not all 50/50 are equivalent.

I am aware of no greninja Dthrow true followups under any circumstance. Even the Dthrow to Dtilt at 0% is a mixup and can be avoided with double jump, or shield if you're a fast faller. I also believe that Dthrow to Fair is only a 50/50 against fast fallers at precise ranges. The threat of Fair forces an air dodge, but they're low enough that they'll suffer air dodge lag should Greninja fake out and perform Fsmash on landing. But DI and double jumping also gets you out. Greninja can only perform a buffered Fair at two heights and sometimes there's no correct answer based on their DI. So really it's situational against some (fast faller) characters who didn't study up to know which DI to use for which % ranges. I think a B tier placement is highly debatable.

And is Bayonetta's Dthrow really worth noting for its kill potential? Even with no DI, Mario needs no less than 200% of damage. Less with rage, and more with proper DI. A serious competitive match shouldn't have either player as high as 200%. And I'm afraid your S tier criteria doesn't hold up for those three. Lucas's Fthrow, Bthrow, and Uthrow all kill at realistic (pre-150%, if they DI correctly) ranges, so of course he'd use them should the situation present itself. Mario also has a viable Bthrow as well. ZSS has no kill throws, so it's accurate to say she would use Dthrow all the time. I guess my ultimate point is, you shouldn't judge a throw as S tier if it's just S tier among that character's moveset.

 

[kendikong]

I just realized that the knockback calculated in training mode is slightly different than in VS mode. According to kurogahammer's knockback calculator, at kill percents training mode knockback is calculated as if you have slight rage at around 50-55% (At least for Zard's dthrow).

At low percents however, it is identical to when you have no rage in VS mode.

EDIT: Wow, when you look at other moves, the knockback differences are huge.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

And that is why you should never test anything in training mode. Just do a time battle with infinite time and figure out some way to get to the exact percent you want.

 

[kendikong]

And that is why you should never test anything in training mode. Just do a time battle with infinite time and figure out some way to get to the exact percent you want.

Well, luckily for me, Zard's dthrow ended up being relatively close to the versus mode knockback values.

Would be nice if the modding community could somehow edit training mode to have the versus mode knockback formula.

 

[Masonomace]

Just wanna remind that Shulk's Dthrow on its own in Vanilla is C tier. With Jump, it's still C tier, for now as far as we know. Speed art is B tier since it does gain low % combos / followups. Shield art is likely C or D tier, probably D tier. Buster art is A tier because you not only have low % & mid % combos / followups, but at higher percents like mid-high to high, you can buffer deactivation Buster & kill confirm with moves such as Perfect-Pivot Fsmash angled up, Dash attack with bad DI, Air Slash, Dair via airdodge read near ledge, etc.. Smash art despite of having no known combo ability, it is a kill throw which being the best kill throw at ledge.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I don't think Lucas should be S tier. It is absolutely not comparable to Mario and ZSS, and to pretend it is would be a joke. He does have the footstool infinite, but the fact that no Lucas player can do it consistently proves to me that it isn't reliable enough to put Lucas's dthrow into S tier. Other than the infinite, he can do dthrow to nair at low percents, and dthrow to uair at higher percents (although this appears to be much easier to escape than those of characters like ZSS or Robin or R.O.B.), but that's about it. Frankly, I think it should be B tier.

Meta Knight also should not be S tier. At low percents he can do dthrow to dash attack. At mid percents he can do dthrow to usmash, but this can be escaped every time by DIing up and away and airdodging. And at high percents, he gets nothing off of it. Dthrow to dash attack at low percents alone makes it very good, but certainly not S tier.

Also, move Luigi up to S tier. He gets free ez-bake combos at practically every percent off of it.