Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Nah]

Dthrows are a lot like Fthrows where usually they're either pretty good or kinda crap, with a handful of decent ones in the mix.

I don't think I need to say anything about Robin's Dthrow though, I think everyone knows about that, it's like an A tier-ish throw.

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

Fox's dthrow isn't D or F-tier, imo. At low percents he actually does have situational combos even with optimal DI (I've tested it, believe me), and a lot of the time, when not true, the opponent won't have any fast enough option to escape a RAR FF bair except airdodge, which is punished with up tilt strings. Yes, it has nothing true or even any traps with good DI at mid percents, and some characters can use a fast attack to get out, but it is a reliable combo tool against many characters at low percents. Also, dthrow to uair is true if they DI in, which happens if they try to DI fthrow to reduce the distance sent offstage, creating a 50/50 of sorts. Also this throw puts the opponent in a really terrible position, high enough up that they can't tech, and low enough that they can't just jump and reset easily, so you can cover their landing with it too if you aren't confident about the combos out of it. It also has a really nice angle for team combos, and a relatively slow startup, giving partners in doubles a very good chance to combo out of it, however irrelevant it may be. Fox's dthrow is probably C tier, as it admittedly pales in comparison to many of the combo throws, but it is a very reliable combo starting tool at low percents in many matchups.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Mario, Luigi, Zero Suit Samus, Robin, R.O.B., and Ness are the only S tier down throws imo. Sorry to burst you guys' bubble about Zelda, but her dthrow uair just isn't reliable enough for her to be considered S tier. According to https://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-hoo-ha-combo.433209, the combo has an extremely tight frame window, Zelda has to chase the DI, and it stops working completely if Zelda has rage. It isn't reliable.

 

[BunbUn129]

I don't think Ness's d throw is quite as good as the others you listed, as it lacks the multi-percent follow-up potential that the others have, and can't set-up KO's in the manner ZSS's, ROB's, and Robin's can.

Edit: Lucas's is S-tier worthy thanks to it having true combos at a wide range of percents and a KO set-up.

 

[MarshieMan]

Ness's Dthrow isnt really S-tier material imo. Fair only deals like 4% so even if you string 3 of them together, you might as well just go for the gauranteed Dthrow > Uair which deals more damage and is also more consistent. Theres also Dthrow > Fair > Uair but thats not much extra damage. Furthermore, ness's Dthrow is heavily susceptible to DI, and follow ups are very difficult past low-mid%


Also roy's Dthrow is bad. It's heavily outclassed by Fthrow and has very few reliable true follow ups.

 

[BJN39]

Sorry to burst you guys' bubble about Zelda, but her dthrow uair just isn't reliable enough for her to be considered S tier. According to https://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-hoo-ha-combo.433209, the combo has an extremely tight frame window, Zelda has to chase the DI, and it stops working completely if Zelda has rage. It isn't reliable.

According to an outdated thread with little to no real research done we should take your word for it.

I already provided a more current thread link where the data is out for all to see.

Edit: Another link to the thread might be nice in case people can't possibly jump back a page to my last post.

Mind you Rob Robin and ZSS's are equally tight windows for the worthwhile stuff. Mind you [almost] ALL throw combos have really right windows. ZSS's is in a bit different category anyways since its utility goes down way farther at high percent, though it's really good at lower percent.

Zelda's works alike to Rob and Robin's. Their's also require DI following (albeit less for Robin) to land. It isn't something exclusive to Zelda. On top of that yes, rage will shorten the window for followups to work, but will also make the UAir followup kill sooner, like the former characters. All can KO around the same percent.

I think people are still arguing whether Robin's "checkmate" is 100% guaranteed and right now I don't believe they have the data done like Zelda to confirm it.

Zelda's Dthrow = to Rob/Robin

 

[Airpoizon]

I second not being S, lol. As said above, her combos are highly unreliable as they can demolished by DI. When DI comes into play, this d-throw is practically garbage. With the "guaranteed follow ups" not reallt being guaranteed anymore.

 

[BJN39]

I second not being S, lol. As said above, her combos are highly unreliable as they can demolished by DI. When DI comes into play, this d-throw is practically garbage. With the "guaranteed follow ups" not reallt being guaranteed anymore.

You do know her Dthrow kill combos are not DI-escapable, right? You would know that if you actually read some of the provided link///

You're acting like being able to DI it makes it garbage. If that's the case then every Dthrow is garbage, because tons of KO throw combos require DI chase.

 

[MarshieMan]

You do know her Dthrow kill combos are not DI-escapable, right? You would know that if you actually read some of the provided link///

You're acting like being able to DI it makes it garbage. If that's the case then every Dthrow is garbage, because tons of KO throw combos require DI chase.

Zamus, ROB, robin, and lucas all have much more consistent Dthrow combos. Especially ROBs, which has a very difficult SDI escape on the Uair and a generous window for when the combo is true.

The amount of precision to get the follow ups from zelda's Dthrow (which you mentioned yourself) is the exact reason her throw is less consistent. Especially the Bair follow up.

A little frame data to back me up
Zelda's dthrow:
BKB: 85
KBG: 55

Robin:
BKB: 30
KBG: 88

ROB:
BKB: 110
KBG: 20

Zamus:
BKB: 90
KBG: 60

As you can see, ROB and robin each have better suited combo throws in terms of the windows they work (20 KBG on ROBs??), and although zamus has similar frame data to zeldas, she has a much better Uair and jump to make up for it. Furthermore, they are all less susceptible to DI than zelda.

Of course any throw is susceptible to DI, but zeldas is more than others.

I definitely think she is deserving of A tier, but she simply isn't as consistent as other S tier candidates. We have all seen how volatile Checkmate, beep bop, and Lucas's throw combos are. But i simply havent seen the same representation from zelda

Edit: whats different about zelda too, is that her throw combos require a hard read on DI. Zamus, ROB, and Robin dont have that same handicap. Lucas does, but he can also get much more damage off of his Dthrow with powerful footstool set ups and combos across all percents.

 

[BJN39]

A little frame data to back me up

*KB numbers*

As you can see, ROB and robin each have better suited combo throws in terms of the windows they work (20 KBG on ROBs??), and although zamus has similar frame data to zeldas, she has a much better Uair and jump to make up for it. Furthermore, they are all less susceptible to DI than zelda.

Of course any throw is susceptible to DI, but zeldas is more than others.

Robin's actually uses a somewhat worse KB design for low percent stuff. It's negative on use at low percent, and only just has the hit advantage to land aerials by high percent.

Also all throws are equally susceptible to DI. No such thing as a DI modifier causes Zelda's to be worse. Yes, there's character mobility which can influence it, but most of these throws are using similar angles and distance, so that is hardly a factor.

Now, Rob's I will agree is a tiny bit better than Zelda's, not Robin's, or ZSS's. Those are equal. The focus of Zelda's Dthrow is NAIR at low to mid % where it's guaranteed, then UAir during the KO window, which is also guaranteed if you get it within the window.

Lucas's isn't even on the same level lmao his is crazy good.


Also why aren't we talking about CF's Dthrow? Is it that everyone just already agreed it's great?

Edit: Some good rep of Zelda Dthrow would by PurpleGuy's work. Lemme go get the YT channel name again... Versus Gaming Center has Ed footage.

 

[Kofu]

Game & Watch's DThrow is either A or S. It doesn't have any true followups until 15% or so, but once it starts comboing it allows for some hefty damage when combined with his 17% NAir and 16% UAir. You can also go for a footstool at lower percents, which you can either follow up with a DAir or attempt to hit them with a weak FAir for a reset. Eventually there is a small window where DThrow to UAir is a kill combo on most of the cast. Even when his aerials stop connecting you can hit them with Fire for a little more damage (though a pummel and one of his other throws does more total, hah).

Villager's DThrow is probably B tier. Nothing super special, but it can lead into most of his aerials. Poor DI at high percents can potentially lead into a kill from 3-turnip UAir. If DThrow to footstool becomes guaranteed it could get higher thanks to the DSmash lock.

 

[Molk]

Game & Watch's DThrow is either A or S. It doesn't have any true followups until 15% or so, but once it starts comboing it allows for some hefty damage when combined with his 17% NAir and 16% UAir. You can also go for a footstool at lower percents, which you can either follow up with a DAir or attempt to hit them with a weak FAir for a reset. Eventually there is a small window where DThrow to UAir is a kill combo on most of the cast. Even when his aerials stop connecting you can hit them with Fire for a little more damage (though a pummel and one of his other throws does more total, hah).

Villager's DThrow is probably B tier. Nothing super special, but it can lead into most of his aerials. Poor DI at high percents can potentially lead into a kill from 3-turnip UAir. If DThrow to footstool becomes guaranteed it could get higher thanks to the DSmash lock.

Agreed on G&W, his Dthrow is a *very* good combo throw and one of his most threatening tools for sure. Because of the way his Dthrow is designed, he has pretty reliable followups at a very wide range of percentages (although the throw is weight dependent, Dthrow Jab will always work as long as the character is in range for it after being thrown, not even Bowser is too heavy for it). G&W's aerials do a huge amount of damage (mainly Nair and Uair, although i use Nair below Toot Toot percentages significantly more often because i don't want to stale Uair) and link from and into his other options very nicely, for example, Dthrow Utilt Double Nair Up B is capable of comboing characters with physics similar to Meta Knight, and that's a whopping ~58% in total! Toot Toot rounds it all out as a pretty threatening kill confirm/50:50, despite it requiring a bit of practice to properly execute as well as knowledge of the exact percentages where it will KO. Up Throw compliments it quite nicely at low percents as well. I'd personally say that G&W's Dthrow is A rank at the absolute minimum, with a pretty good case for S in my opinion, i can't see it being any lower.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Also why aren't we talking about CF's Dthrow? Is it that everyone just already agreed it's great?

I've got some problems with that one. It's killed by it's weight dependency. Not just by the increased endlag, but by the increased startup. When Falcon releases a target later, that means he gets less out of his slide. Furthermore, since you want to initiate the throw as soon as possible for that slide, that means no pummeling. And if you've shield grabbed somebody, there's no slide for that either. Momentum and matchups dictate whether or not you can get a knee, a double Nair, or just a single Uair. Not to mention DI away.

 

[Funen1]

Ness's Dthrow isnt really S-tier material imo. Fair only deals like 4% so even if you string 3 of them together, you might as well just go for the gauranteed Dthrow > Uair which deals more damage and is also more consistent. Theres also Dthrow > Fair > Uair but thats not much extra damage. Furthermore, ness's Dthrow is heavily susceptible to DI, and follow ups are very difficult past low-mid%

Ness' F-air does 7% - it's just the last hit that does 4%. So two of these with staling is equal to one U-air, and three obviously does more. D-throw to F-air to U-air may do around the same damage as D-throw to triple F-air (like 1% more or so), but it's generally more reliable at lower percents than the triple F-air version, and being able to get a quick and easy 30% to start a stock even if the opponent DIs away is no joke. Heck, using N-air in that combo instead of U-air is even more reliable when they're closer to 0% (a handful of characters can air-dodge out then) at the cost of only 2% damage. Then there's also a single U-air for when you do D-throw at mid-percents, which gets down to more basic damage levels (~20%) but is still nice to have and sets up a juggle. D-throw can be DI'd, sure, but DI'ing in mainly only messes up people who habitually jump forward and attack (you can use F-air to start a combo just fine if you fade back a bit during your jump), and DI'ing away can reduce the ranges that certain followups work, but it doesn't come close to eliminating them either, so it's on the Ness player to know those ranges so they don't use the wrong move and miss.

But like BunbUn129 alluded to, Ness' D-throw isn't designed to have any followups at high percents, let alone ones that kill - it's strictly a low- to mid-percent combo setup, so it obviously doesn't have the same amount of versatility as the best D-throws, which imo bumps it down to A-tier material.

 

[Masonomace]

's Dthrow is nothing amazing like S or A tier rankings for down throws in the game that are either combo-heavy or raw kill power, but Shulk passes several exceptions. He can make his non-weight-based throw a combo throw & a kill throw, or just a 50/50 setup edgeguard throw if you chose not to attempt to try true things or just not wait to use it at later percents for the kill.

Speed at low % is a basic trait of:
Dthrow → Dash → SH / FH → Fair
Dthrow → Buffer deactivated Dash → SH / FH → Fair (More-so true than the former above due to the properties happening with buffer deactivation. Buffer deactivating Speed art is used to extend the percent range of Dthrow → Fair.)
Dthrow → Dash → SH / FH → Frame Trap Nair
Dthrow → Monadacus (It's an art buffer canceled into dash jump canceled up smash. It's true on a few characters but becomes a frame trap anything past low percents)

Buster at low % is a basic trait of:
Dthrow → Jab (Works on Bowser, Charizard, & Donkey Kong)
Dthrow → Dtilt
Dthrow → Ftilt
Dthrow → Fsmash angled or not
Dthrow → Air Slash Hit 1 or both hits (Although, both hits could make you unsafe & be punished unless platform-play happens.)

Buster at mid % is a basic trait of:
Dthrow → Instant dash attack / semi-fast inputted dash attack
Dthrow → Fair
Dthrow → Buffer deactivated followup

All this involved, & the fact that Smash art Dthrow is one of if not the best killing down throws in Vanilla Smash 4, I'd rank Shulk Dthrow either B or A. Probably B in my humble opinion.

 

[ReRaze]

I said it doesn't work under any circumstance because I didn't take the time to test every character at every percent. With how impossible it looked on Mario, I saw no need to spend time proving 3% of the claim. Mario is the default test subject because he possesses no special attributes like fast falling, low or high weight, or a large hurtbox like the punching bag, DK. Even if you ignore DI, it's only been proposed to connect on DK. Yet during the five posts before that the presumed argument was "It probably work on everybody!" and "it works on nobody". You need to be able to provide even one proof of a claim and it took several days for somebody to come in and name drop DK. That's one out of 58. And I'm not expecting more than two or three additions to the list. The verdict is that ALL of Pit's fthrow followups are susceptible to DI. And fthrow is naturally outclassed by Dthrow in all scenarios.

See, how can you so boldly claim it doesn't work under any circumstances if you didn't even take the time to test it properly in the first place? Stating baseless facts, or what you expect or presume without adequately testing the character is the issue here. Oh and during the posts before I never said it worked on everybody or that it always worked just that it was a thing, you're the only one who said it worked on nobody, I was simply correcting you.
Btw Masonomace I think you were just a little too slow haha, anyways I can get it to work consistently on DK from 0-40%, It works on majority of the cast, Peach, Bowser, Ness, Captain Falcon, and even Mario just to name a few. All with DI in or no DI, the timing is stricter for some characters, and pretty much impossible for characters like Fox unless they DI in but it definitely works on more than just "two or three". Also as I mentioned earlier, DI in is generally optimal vs Pit anyway.
Also, I'm just gonna correct your verdict. Depending on the character (fast fallers/fat), Fthrow > Dash attack can be guaranteed regardless of DI. DI in or none is what allows Fthrow > Usmash to work and DI out or none results in guaranteed Dash attack followups both of which do more damage than usual Dthrow followups, not to mention Fthrow > Dash attack pops up the opponent into a better positon for a followup at lower percents than say Dthrow > Usmash and does more damage.
So no, Dthrow doesnt outclass it in all scenarios

Anyways I think this has gotten out of hand for something so trivial, I'm in agreement with their Fthrow placing anyway. I just dislike blatant misinfo about a main, I'm gonna leave it at that. And I feel as if it's no longer relevant to the current topic so if you'd like to continue this discussion or if you want more info about percent ranges or other stuff pm me or tag me in the pit boards, peace~

 

[Masonomace]

Oh. . .duh I forgot to post the notable kill down throws I labbed back then, but then Fthrow was discussed after Uthrow so.

Notable down throw kill percents on Mario on FD in training mode​

Note: Said character stood at center stage dropping from the revival platform. Mario down thrown & launched in said angle / direction & DI'd optimally to know the ideal & realistic percent he would die at the very latest, yet honest. And when I say "notable", I mean, "killed before 300%". So lets get to it. Oh, and:

Disclaimer: This is center stage. Dead center. If you all want a kill throw % table of characters doing Dthrow at the very end of the ledge with optimal survival DI, then. . .Idk just reply to me or something.

Character | Dthrow optimal kill % | Deadly Blow starting %
Bayonetta | 209% with optimal → DI | 203%
Bowser Jr. | 265% with optimal DI | 242%
Cloud | 246% with optimal ↓ DI | 210%
Corrin | 203% with optimal DI | 161%
Diddy Kong | 272% with optimal ← DI | 257%
Ike | 187% with optimal → DI | 180%
DDD | 232% with optimal → DI | 224%
Kirby | 265% with optimal DI | 210%
Luigi | 261% with optimal → DI | 253%
(0/0)Mii Brawler | 259% with optimal → DI | 250%
(50/50)Mii Brawler | 258% with optimal → DI | 250%
(100/100)Mii Brawler | 258% with optimal → DI | 250%
(0/0)Mii Swordfighter | 286% with optimal → DI | 276%
(50/50)Mii Swordfighter | 286% with optimal → DI | 276%
(100/100)Mii Swordfighter | 286% with optimal → DI | 276%
Mr. Game & Watch | 262% with optimal → DI | 260%
Pikachu | 229% with optimal → DI | 222%
Robin | 282% with optimal → DI | 279%
Ryu | 203% with optimal → DI | 194%
撃(Monado Smash)Shulk | 194% with optimal DI | 176%
Toon Link | 288% with optimal DI | 241%
Fresh Deep Breathing Wii Fit Trainer | 215% with optimal ← DI | 207%

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ness' F-air does 7% - it's just the last hit that does 4%. So two of these with staling is equal to one U-air, and three obviously does more. D-throw to F-air to U-air may do around the same damage as D-throw to triple F-air (like 1% more or so), but it's generally more reliable at lower percents than the triple F-air version, and being able to get a quick and easy 30% to start a stock even if the opponent DIs away is no joke. Heck, using N-air in that combo instead of U-air is even more reliable when they're closer to 0% (a handful of characters can air-dodge out then) at the cost of only 2% damage. Then there's also a single U-air for when you do D-throw at mid-percents, which gets down to more basic damage levels (~20%) but is still nice to have and sets up a juggle. D-throw can be DI'd, sure, but DI'ing in mainly only messes up people who habitually jump forward and attack (you can use F-air to start a combo just fine if you fade back a bit during your jump), and DI'ing away can reduce the ranges that certain followups work, but it doesn't come close to eliminating them either, so it's on the Ness player to know those ranges so they don't use the wrong move and miss.

Adding on to this, if your opponent tries to go low after the first Fair off Dthrow and you catch them with a second Fair you can drag them down to the stage and regrab into another Dthrow Fair chain, I don't know exact percents off my head but Dthrow-2x Fair-Dthrow-3x Fair can lead to around 40~50 percent in seconds. Ontop of that with Triple Fair off Dthrow you send the opponent far off stage horizontally and can you can set up for edge guards, against characters with bad horizontal recovery a grab at low percents near the ledge can cost them a stock if you manage to stuff their double jump.

The only reason it's not a S tier throw is because it loses use after mid-high percent against most the cast

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh. . .duh I forgot to post the notable kill down throws I labbed back then, but then Fthrow was discussed after Uthrow so.

Spoiler: Notable down throw kill percents on Mario on FD in training mode

Note: Said character stood at center stage dropping from the revival platform. Mario down thrown & launched in said angle / direction & DI'd optimally to know the ideal & realistic percent he would die at the very latest, yet honest. And when I say "notable", I mean, "killed before 300%". So lets get to it. Oh, and:

Disclaimer: This is center stage. Dead center. If you all want a kill throw % table of characters doing Dthrow at the very end of the ledge with optimal survival DI, then. . .Idk just reply to me or something.

Character | Dthrow optimal kill % | Deadly Blow starting %
Bayonetta | 209% with optimal → DI | 203%
Bowser Jr. | 265% with optimal DI | 242%
Cloud | 246% with optimal ↓ DI | 210%
Corrin | 203% with optimal DI | 161%
Diddy Kong | 272% with optimal ← DI | 257%
Ike | 187% with optimal → DI | 180%
DDD | 232% with optimal → DI | 224%
Kirby | 265% with optimal DI | 210%
Luigi | 261% with optimal → DI | 253%
Mr. Game & Watch | 262% with optimal → DI | 260%
Pikachu | 229% with optimal → DI | 222%
Robin | 282% with optimal → DI | 279%
Ryu | 203% with optimal → DI | 194%
撃(Monado Smash)Shulk | 194% with optimal DI | 176%
Toon Link | 288% with optimal DI | 241%
(0/0)Mii Brawler | 259% with optimal → DI | 250%
(50/50)Mii Brawler | 258% with optimal → DI | 250%
(100/100)Mii Brawler | 258% with optimal → DI | 250%
(0/0)Mii Swordfighter | 286% with optimal → DI | 276%
(50/50)Mii Swordfighter | 286% with optimal → DI | 276%
(100/100)Mii Swordfighter | 286% with optimal → DI | 276%
Fresh Deep Breathing Wii Fit Trainer | 215% with optimal ← DI | 207%

Huh, nobody's Dthrow kills particularly soon. I thought Ike's was rarely used to kill even with him gathering range, but apparently its the best Dthrow for killing?

So pretty much Ike and Shulk might occasionally kill with Dthrow if at high range/on a platform, Corrin, Bayonetta and Ryu miiiiiiiight get one or two that way as well once in a blue moon, outside of that it ain't happening.

 

[Masonomace]

Huh, nobody's Dthrow kills particularly soon. I thought Ike's was rarely used to kill even with him gathering range, but apparently its the best Dthrow for killing?

So pretty much Ike and Shulk might occasionally kill with Dthrow if at high range/on a platform, Corrin, Bayonetta and Ryu miiiiiiiight get one or two that way as well once in a blue moon, outside of that it ain't happening.

The gripe about this labbing test was that it was done center stage. I'm sure that Ike / Shulk's kill percents are threateningly stronger with max rage, especially Smash art. . . When knockback angles within the 40° - 60° are Dthrows that are from center stage or further away, they get OR DI'd hard & lose kill succession, which is why you see Toon Link & Bowser Jr. get bodied because of that.

 

[evmaxy54]

I second not being S, lol. As said above, her combos are highly unreliable as they can demolished by DI. When DI comes into play, this d-throw is practically garbage. With the "guaranteed follow ups" not reallt being guaranteed anymore.

Her Dthrow combos are unreliable only if you're bad lol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The gripe about this labbing test was that it was done center stage. I'm sure that Ike / Shulk's kill percents are threateningly stronger with max rage, especially Smash art. . . When knockback angles within the 40° - 60° are Dthrows that are from center stage or further away, they get OR DI'd hard & lose kill succession, which is why you see Toon Link & Bowser Jr. get bodied because of that.

That's part of consistency/number of times a throw is usable though ain't it? What would you rather have, a Dthrow that killed at say 180% (no rage) no matter where you were, or a Dthrow that killed at 220% (no rage) at centre but 165% (no rage) at the edge of FD? Probably depends on the character and what their other throws do tbqh, but consistency is an important factor.

Either way, seeing those numbers, I'd be comfortable calling Ike's Dthrow B tier. It may be overshadowed by Uthrow for a large part of the game, but its still the combo throw for 0-10% with a higher damage potential than Uthrow, and is the best consistent killing Dthrow.

 

[Fenny]

Interesting thing about Bayo's d throw is that the survival DI (DI away) against it also happens to be the worst possible DI against her f throw.

Yep, and vice versa for her Dthrow, where you don't exactly want to DI straight up like you would for Fthrow.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

One thing you're forgetting about Zelda's dthrow uair is that Zelda's uair is tiny. Even with the hitbox size buff, it's still quite small. This wouldn't be a problem by itself, but the fact that the frame window is small AND you have to read the opponent's DI means that getting it to land is much more difficult than, say, Robin's or R.O.B.'s, who have massive hitboxes on their uairs. And although it would seem like this is more of an argument that Zelda's uair is bad rather than an argument about her dthrow, you do need to remember that we're not talking about these moves in a vacuum, you need to consider the whole character. So the properties of Zelda's uair do influence how good her dthrow is, at least in my opinion. If you think that the properties of Zelda's uair should not affect her dthrow ranking, then you can ignore this post entirely, but I think it should.

 

[Lorde]

Spoiler: Zelda's uair

8 units is not what I'd call "tiny"

yeah, it's only active for 3 frames, but the hitbox is not small

 

[Poisonous]

Wario's dthrow is pretty bad unless the other player doesn't know how to jump or tech. Fast fallers are low %s are forced to tech (they might even be able to jump if they DI up and away tbh), but that's about it. It puts them in an awkward position though, where if they choose to jump they did just waste their DJ which is pretty neat. But all in all, you might as well just Uthrow since it does more damage or bthrow/fthrow to put them offstage.


Just noticed where you put Wario's Jab, get down from there Wario! You'll hurt yourself! Strong contender for worst jab in the game. 8 frame startup is bad as is, but it lacks the damage and followups (or even mixups for that matter) that come from jabs like Mewtwo, Palutena, and even Zelda or Ganondorf for raw power. If you land both hits (which isn't guaranteed as people often fall out of jab 1 lol), you get a whopping 9 damage (which won't even kill until ~250% if SOMEHOW you manage to land jab 2 alone). Not safe on shield at all as he steps in which means you can't even space with it, quite literally a useless move.

 

[apparently fuz]

It may have been already said, but ZSS' d-throw is too versatile to be anything lower than S, even with the loss of true kill confirms at higher percentages. The sheer amount of options she has out of it makes it one of the most feared, potent and consistent throws in the entire game.

 

[Kofu]

The gripe about this labbing test was that it was done center stage. I'm sure that Ike / Shulk's kill percents are threateningly stronger with max rage, especially Smash art. . . When knockback angles within the 40° - 60° are Dthrows that are from center stage or further away, they get OR DI'd hard & lose kill succession, which is why you see Toon Link & Bowser Jr. get bodied because of that.

Toon Link also has two better kill throws to use so it's essentially worthless for killing.

 

[evmaxy54]

Zelda's uair is tiny

No.

you have to read the opponent's DI

No.

If you think that the properties of Zelda's uair should not affect her dthrow ranking, then you can ignore this post entirely, but I think it should.

I rather ignore it for spreading misinformation more than anything TBH LMAO

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The gripe about this labbing test was that it was done center stage. I'm sure that Ike / Shulk's kill percents are threateningly stronger with max rage, especially Smash art. . . When knockback angles within the 40° - 60° are Dthrows that are from center stage or further away, they get OR DI'd hard & lose kill succession, which is why you see Toon Link & Bowser Jr. get bodied because of that.

That's part of consistency/number of times a throw is usable though ain't it? What would you rather have, a Dthrow that killed at say 180% (no rage) no matter where you were, or a Dthrow that killed at 220% (no rage) at centre but 165% (no rage) at the edge of FD? Probably depends on the character and what their other throws do tbqh, but consistency is an important factor.

Either way, seeing those numbers, I'd be comfortable calling Ike's Dthrow B tier. It may be overshadowed by Uthrow for a large part of the game, but its still the combo throw for 0-10% with a higher damage potential than Uthrow, and is the best consistent killing Dthrow.

Oh. . .duh I forgot to post the notable kill down throws I labbed back then, but then Fthrow was discussed after Uthrow so.

Spoiler: Notable down throw kill percents on Mario on FD in training mode

Note: Said character stood at center stage dropping from the revival platform. Mario down thrown & launched in said angle / direction & DI'd optimally to know the ideal & realistic percent he would die at the very latest, yet honest. And when I say "notable", I mean, "killed before 300%". So lets get to it. Oh, and:

Disclaimer: This is center stage. Dead center. If you all want a kill throw % table of characters doing Dthrow at the very end of the ledge with optimal survival DI, then. . .Idk just reply to me or something.

Character | Dthrow optimal kill % | Deadly Blow starting %
Bayonetta | 209% with optimal → DI | 203%
Bowser Jr. | 265% with optimal DI | 242%
Cloud | 246% with optimal ↓ DI | 210%
Corrin | 203% with optimal DI | 161%
Diddy Kong | 272% with optimal ← DI | 257%
Ike | 187% with optimal → DI | 180%
DDD | 232% with optimal → DI | 224%
Kirby | 265% with optimal DI | 210%
Luigi | 261% with optimal → DI | 253%
Mr. Game & Watch | 262% with optimal → DI | 260%
Pikachu | 229% with optimal → DI | 222%
Robin | 282% with optimal → DI | 279%
Ryu | 203% with optimal → DI | 194%
撃(Monado Smash)Shulk | 194% with optimal DI | 176%
Toon Link | 288% with optimal DI | 241%
(0/0)Mii Brawler | 259% with optimal → DI | 250%
(50/50)Mii Brawler | 258% with optimal → DI | 250%
(100/100)Mii Brawler | 258% with optimal → DI | 250%
(0/0)Mii Swordfighter | 286% with optimal → DI | 276%
(50/50)Mii Swordfighter | 286% with optimal → DI | 276%
(100/100)Mii Swordfighter | 286% with optimal → DI | 276%
Fresh Deep Breathing Wii Fit Trainer | 215% with optimal ← DI | 207%

I know how you feel, I've got this write up of Bthrow results. Ah, but knowing which throws are horizontal instead of vertical is important information. Comparing them among the same data set is unfair without two takes - one at the edge of a stage, another at center to create a range of possibilities. The fact is that Shulk's Smash Dthrow beats Ike's for about 90% of the possible positions between the end of FD and its center. Of course, it does get worse than that when Shulk is further than the center, but it's no problem for him, specifically. His smash Bthrow has even more generous kill ranges, and would be the preferred choice at dead center. For comparison, if you put shulk at the edge of FD against an optimally DIing opponent, Smash Fthrow is 137, Smash Dthrow is 129, and Smash Bthrow is 120. However, when equipped with no art, Fthrow is 187, Dthrow is 184, and Bthrow is 167. Shulk doesn't spend very much time in Smash art compared to other options, it's a serious tactical decision.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

No.

No.

I rather ignore it for spreading misinformation more than anything TBH LMAO

Yes and yes. Zelda's uair is quite small (relatively speaking) and you do have to react to your opponent's DI.

 

[Kofu]

Yes and yes. Zelda's uair is quite small (relatively speaking) and you do have to react to your opponent's DI.

Okay uh, have you played a good Zelda since her UAir got buffed? The move isn't small (it's basically as big as Zelda herself is) and is fairly easy to land. Yes, there is a component go following DI, but it's not that difficult.

Zelda's DThrow is good, especially since she can land her UAir out of it. You're trying to tell Zelda mains about their own character.

 

[Fenny]

Yes and yes. Zelda's uair is quite small (relatively speaking) and you do have to react to your opponent's DI.

Even relatively speaking, that's incorrect lmao

 

[Masonomace]

10° influence is the max apparently. So you either don't DI & be launched in a 100°, DI away & be 110° more behind her, or DI toward her & be 90° directly above her. And you either eat Uair without DI or DI'ing towards her, or eat a LK Bair if you DI 110° behind her.

 

[masato]

's down throw is pretty bad compared to most other down throws in the game that are great combo starters, but it isn't totally useless.

for reference:

damage: 8%
angle (no DI): 78
bkb: 26
kbg: 136

at low-mid percents (10% - 30% approximately depending on weight and fall speed), bayo's d-throw can lead to a d-tilt if the opponent chooses an incorrect escape option (either jump away or shield) at a specific percent. for example, according to a video by "My Smash Corner", sheik can shield between 14% and 24% after getting d-thrown by bayo, but she cannot jump. after that percent, she cannot shield, but she can jump.

at mid percents, nothing is guaranteed off of dthrow, but it still puts the opponent in a disadvantaged state. your best bet is to either go for a f-air or an aerial side-b to catch an opponent who does not react fast enough, or wait for an airdodge and punish as they land.

at high to very high (about 130) percents near the ledge, dthrow can lead to a guaranteed u-air (or even b-air at lower percents) for a potential kill as a DI mix up if they DI inwards. an opponent at the ledge who gets grabbed by bayonetta at high percents will most likely be DI-ing toward bayo to avoid getting killed by her f-throw, so this is an oppurtune time to instead go for a d-throw to dj u-air. this is usually a confirm due to DI-ing in sending the opponent straight upwards after the d-throw.

at extremely high percents (around 200% on mario without rage), d-throw will kill. it's the fifth strongest killing d-throw in the game!

overall, this throw is mainly a mix up tool to keep an opponent on his or her toes, especially at the ledge. definitely not a good throw, but it isn't awful either. worthy of C tier or perhaps even B tier depending on how the tiers stack up.

 

[evmaxy54]

Yes and yes. Zelda's uair is quite small (relatively speaking) and you do have to react to your opponent's DI.

It's massive lol

Also:

you have to read the opponent's DI

ROFL

Make up your mind bruh

10° influence is the max apparently. So you either don't DI & be launched in a 100°, DI away & be 110° more behind her, or DI toward her & be 90° directly above her. And you either eat Uair without DI or DI'ing towards her, or eat a LK Bair if you DI 110° behind her.

The LK is character dependent, it's weird. Fast Fallers can get hit by Bair no matter what their DI is, floaties like Peach & Zelda can only get hit by DI out then there's Luigi LOL

(Of course not counting Rage & at lowish %)

 

[MarshieMan]

It's massive lol

Not really. When you just look at the hitbox for zelda its easy to think its huge. But try comparing it to ROB, Zamus, and Robin. You'll find it really isnt that big.

Its a pretty decently sized Uair, better than say Lucas's, but it isnt "massive"

Another disadvantage to zeldas Uair is that it doesn't come out till frame 14. All the other Uairs we have mentioned come out on at LEAST frame 7. Some even sooner. Zeldas Uair is also only active for 3 frames while other Uairs are active for 10+ frames.

I think that if it weren't for her subpar Uair, her Dthrow could definitely be S tier. But its an awkward and slow disjoint, that requires a commitment to DI.

If you have 30° of freedom for every Dthrow, but your Uair covers all 30° of it, or you have enough time to react, then the throw is "less susceptible" to DI than a throw in which you need to know which direction they will DI because your Uair can't cover all 30°. This isn't really complicated. What im saying is some throws are certainly more susceptible to DI, and its silly some of you are ignoring that.


I can definitely agree her throw is being underrated at times in this discussion, and misinformation is a real problem here, but you guys need to look at this objectively and try to understand that "yeah, zelda has a great Dthrow. But its not nearly as potent as other S-tier candidates." Keep things in context guys.

•Lucas can rack up 50%+ from his dthrow
•Zamus can latter people and ko at dumb low percents(yes its more difficult post-nerf)
•ROB has the longest percent range of any hoo-hah, as well as a very very complex escape DI
•Robin can very reliably KO early without a DI read

And zelda? Well, ill leave that comparison to you guys.


And please, if youre going to quote one little part from this post and completely ignore the rest, don't bother. None of us will take you seriously.

 

[ARGHETH]

Another disadvantage to zeldas Uair is that it doesn't come out till frame 14. All the other Uairs we have mentioned come out on at LEAST frame 7. Some even sooner. Zeldas Uair is also only active for 3 frames while other Uairs are active for 10+ frames.

Robin's is F10 though, and the strong hit's only 4 frames. Zelda's being F14 and 3 active frames isn't good, but it isn't terrible either.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

ROFL

Make up your mind bruh

I misspoke when I said you have to read the opponent's DI. I meant to say that you have to react to your opponent's DI. So that's my mistake.

 

[BJN39]

"
If you have 30° of freedom for every Dthrow, but your Uair covers all 30° of it, or you have enough time to react, then the throw is "less susceptible" to DI than a throw in which you need to know which direction they will DI because your Uair can't cover all 30°. This isn't really complicated. What im saying is some throws are certainly more susceptible to DI, and its silly some of you are ignoring that.


I can definitely agree her throw is being underrated at times in this discussion, and misinformation is a real problem here, but you guys need to look at this objectively and try to understand that "yeah, zelda has a great Dthrow. But its not nearly as potent as other S-tier candidates." Keep things in context guys.

•Lucas can rack up 50%+ from his dthrow
•Zamus can latter people and ko at dumb low percents(yes its more difficult post-nerf)
•ROB has the longest percent range of any hoo-hah, as well as a very very complex escape DI
•Robin can very reliably KO early without a DI read

And zelda? Well, ill leave that comparison to you guys.

Maybe what I want to see them is Lucas/Samus/Mario/ROB/Luigi being one tier above Zelda because I agree those are all great,

But Robin and ZSS are not a step above Zelda's, or on par with the former several. Maybe it would seem picky, but maybe there should be two "S-like" tiers with the former and any broke ones I missed in the first (aka SS) and Robin/Zelda/ZSS/etcIMayHaveMissed in the second (aka S)

Tbh I think there's a mixup for the scope of comparison. Robin and ZSS are the ones Zelda matches, and the ones I'm arguing about, but the others are just a whole new level.