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F-throws that kill before 180 (Tested on Mario at the right edge of the stage of FD, CPU set to stop, no Rage, no Staling). Table below is ordered by lowest to highest.
135 137 (Smash art only) 141 142 147 152 (With 152% Aura) 160 (Deep Breathing only) 172 175 (Blue, others didn't kill, also note that Olimar's grab has a deadspot directly in front of him so he can't get right up to the ledge) 176 177 180 (Red lightning showed at 179 but it didn't kill)
I don't really have a clean testing method for Fthrow. With Uthrow, it's easy because the ceiling of a stage is the same no matter where you stand on the stage. And with Bthrow, you can dodge roll to the ledge to position yourself as far as possible, and walk the CPU over to you for consistent results. So here's the best I can do for Fthrow: Mario (set to control) walks to the right edge of Wii U FD in training mode and dodge rolls to the ledge to stand as far as possible on it. He is facing the thrower. The thrower also walks as far as he can to the right, then returns to a neutral standing position where proximity detectors push them apart. The thrower stands until they stop getting pushed before performing standing grab and the Fthrow. If an idle animation does additional pushing, I set them up again. Mario will always be DIing to the left back toward the stage, as he is trying to avoid the right blastzone, but I will not perform double jumps because that is a character dependent subject. The fact that our victim, Mario, benefits from hurtbox shifting on horizontal kill moves is not immediately relevant to knockback tests. Mario continues holding left after launched to start drifting back to the stage, as players will do to avoid touching the blast zone. I am also including the throw's damage and angle for comparison.
I'll update with more numbers periodically. Trying to figure a testing method for throwing from center stage, in order to demonstrate the throw's scaling.
Since my testing method is so rudimentary, expect at least a 1% margin for error when repeating it. I did the best I could with Lucario's aura. I really wish food restored a fixed amount. And for Olimar, his pikmin falling off stage when grabbing too close to it made it so he had to throw a step further back then everybody else. I should note that Olimar's blue Uthrow will always kill sooner off the top than his Forward. At least with FD's boundaries.
Edit: Does anybody know whether a throw considers the victim a ground target or airborne? Because that matters for throws with the Sakurai angle. According to official sources, Smash 4's maxed out sakurai angle is 40 degrees for a grounded target, and 45 for air targets. For my list, I assumed that the thrown target is grounded and wrote 40 for Charizard and Olimar.
Yeah but do you really want to use 190% Lucario for the example? Because Lucario at 178% exactly will deal exactly 13%, so if you have 190% Lucario Fthrow, it'll be a decimal number. This is why I'll just use 0%, 70%, 178%, & 190% for ****s n giggles.
Oh, and I also believe deserves his own S tier. A jumping Cargo Uthrow has comparable kill ranges and damage potential to Bowser's Uthrow, minus the regrab on Fast fallers as far as I know. But there's more if you end up with enough time to jump off stage. Cargo Dthrow offstage can kill targets at the ~150% mark, though I can't produce a repeatable test for that. Just know that DK has to already be at the edge of a stage for it to be a viable kill option. Plus DK mains have performed cargo throws into the stage for a stage spike. It is techable though. Even if you throw them very close to the stage, they always have a tech window (just like Ganon and Falcon Up B's catching somebody at the ledge, there's no hitlag thus no untechable stage spike). Cargo Fthrow is worthless, and Cargo Bthrow is only notable for being his highest damage throw at 12.
This throw combos into Fair at low percents. Though it's not easy to pull off without practice. It's weight based, but true combos are still possible on heavyweights. The problem with this followup is them flying too far too fast, and heavyweights aren't launched as far. I'm also unsure if Diddy can catch anybody if they DI away from him.
This combos into dash attack on heavyweights at very low %s, taking advantage of them not being able to double jump or airdodge in time to avoid it. This is relevant because he can't combo them at all with Dthrow being weight based. And again, not sure if this followup is works against DI away.
Combos into Side B, and on light weight characters only, combos into Nair at high percents. Though I don't know how often you'd see this, because it's the same range and matchup where Dthrow to grounded Up B is a guaranteed kill confirm on sheik-characters
Combos into Nair or Fair at 0-20% on sheik-characters. Nothing should be possible past this, so I recommend Marth and Lucina at least one tier below roy.
Yeah but do you really want to use 190% Lucario for the example? Because Lucario at 178% exactly will deal exactly 13%, so if you have 190% Lucario Fthrow, it'll be a decimal number. This is why I'll just use 0%, 70%, 178%, & 190% for ****s n giggles.
I don't see your point. If forward throw kills earlier at Max Aura, of course you'd want to use Max Aura Lucario, because that's when the move is at its strongest.
I don't really have a clean testing method for Fthrow. With Uthrow, it's easy because the ceiling of a stage is the same no matter where you stand on the stage. And with Bthrow, you can dodge roll to the ledge to position yourself as far as possible, and walk the CPU over to you for consistent results. So here's the best I can do for Fthrow: Mario (set to control) walks to the right edge of Wii U FD in training mode and dodge rolls to the ledge to stand as far as possible on it. He is facing the thrower. The thrower also walks as far as he can to the right, then returns to a neutral standing position where proximity detectors push them apart. The thrower stands until they stop getting pushed before performing standing grab and the Fthrow. If an idle animation does additional pushing, I set them up again. Mario will always be DIing to the left back toward the stage, as he is trying to avoid the right blastzone, but I will not perform double jumps because that is a character dependent subject. The fact that our victim, Mario, benefits from hurtbox shifting on horizontal kill moves is not immediately relevant to knockback tests. Mario continues holding left after launched to start drifting back to the stage, as players will do to avoid touching the blast zone. I am also including the throw's damage and angle for comparison.
I'll update with more numbers periodically. Trying to figure a testing method for throwing from center stage, in order to demonstrate the throw's scaling.
Since my testing method is so rudimentary, expect at least a 1% margin for error when repeating it. I did the best I could with Lucario's aura. I really wish food restored a fixed amount. And for Olimar, his pikmin falling off stage when grabbing too close to it made it so he had to throw a step further back then everybody else. I should note that Olimar's blue Uthrow will always kill sooner off the top than his Forward. At least with FD's boundaries.
Edit: Does anybody know whether a throw considers the victim a ground target or airborne? Because that matters for throws with the Sakurai angle. According to official sources, Smash 4's maxed out sakurai angle is 40 degrees for a grounded target, and 45 for air targets. For my list, I assumed that the thrown target is grounded and wrote 40 for Charizard and Olimar.
Daaaaaaaaaaaayum that's some hot data. And yeah I wish food was consistently accurate instead of having to be picky & choosing particular foods to heal X percent.
Also, perhaps that when I lab my way of dash grabbing or standing grab from when teetering over stage ledge, the throw would naturally have them airborne at that point. Which then it would be always airborne to have the 45° angle maybe?
I don't see your point. If forward throw kills earlier at Max Aura, of course you'd want to use Max Aura Lucario, because that's when the move is at its strongest.
That's because the point isn't very plausible & doesn't hold much merit in the grand scheme. Although, it's to stay fair & for the sake of equal even damage & not be decimal-inducing despite that there's Dr. Mario. In an actual fresh throw never used unless for kill purposes to take a stock, it's always going to be a decimal damage including the factor of rage's knockback multiplier. However, Lucario already affects these rules with Aura so it's double-stacked decimals. So even though 178%Lucario deals 13% in Training Mode & 13.65% in a real match, 190%Lucario is going to deal 13.6% in Training Mode & 14.28% in a real match. Even just a 0.63% difference makes a surprising change in kill percents.
But again, the point is meh. You're obviously right & I agree, but just bringing up that 178% is a clean flat decimal-less number for the testing.
Sheik fthrow is amazing, only downside of the 50:50 is if sheik misses she loses stage control if missed which doesn't sound too bad but you'll feel the pain if you miss 3 or more in a row
Average. Flip Jump Kick follow-up possible but not realistic. Percents and KB average. C tier, possibly D, but more likely C, though I don't know how good other Fthrows are.
Bad. Used only for positionning but Dthrow is arguably better and has combo potential. Low damage. Some small mix-up possible at low percents for some targets (Dash attack) but that's it. D tier.
Good. Excellent for positionning, great KB, nice 10%. KO near the ledge. And the sound effect is great (wait, that doesn't count?). A tier I'd say.
's forward throw isn't bad. It doesn't do a lot of damage but the distance it sends you at makes it a good positioning throw. You can follow up with aggresive pressure like a dash attack or more passive pressure with a shuriken. good for setting up edge guards or all around a mix up for when people are expecting an up throw.
It's C tier material if you ask me.
's forward throw is great. Deals a hole tonne of damage, and only Bowser, Yoshi, and Greninja can avoid all the shadow balls. It does as much damage as a lot throw combos in this game at a whopping 13% damage. His most useful throw when your up throw can't quite kill yet.
Easily A tier in my opinion.
's up throw is alright most of the time. It only becomes good until he has good aura, in which case it does a lot of damage like Mewtwo's. All around an above average throw.
If you're considering all phases of the battle, it's a B tier move.
's up throw is alright most of the time. It only becomes good until he has good aura, in which case it does a lot of damage like Mewtwo's. All around an above average throw.
If you're considering all phases of the battle, it's a B tier move.
Lucario's up throw actually gets worse with Aura, unless you're trying to kill with it, in which case you either need to be at Max Aura or your opponent needs to be really damaged.
If you meant his forward throw, then I agree, low end of B tier is a good place for it. It synchs with Aura Sphere and it's very powerful at High/Max Aura.
Im starting to think "positioning" isnt a very good reason for a throw being good. It basically means that the throw has too much BKB to combo into anything, but too low KBG to be a good kill throw.
That and basically every throw is good for positioning, when you throw an opponent you have taken stage control and that doesnt really change from character to character. I guess lower angle is a good thing for positioning.
Also, damage shouldnt affect ranking of throws that much. Most throws deal about the same damage, and a difference of 2% or 3% isnt a big deal at all. Damage is only an issue when referring to NON COMBO throws that deal like 6%. Damage should obviously be considered, but just because a throw deals 8%-11% damage it shouldn't immediately be B or A tier.
's forward throw is great. Deals a hole tonne of damage, and only Bowser, Yoshi, and Greninja can avoid all the shadow balls. It does as much damage as a lot throw combos in this game at a whopping 13% damage. His most useful throw when your up throw can't quite kill yet.
To clarify on this for those unaware, Yoshi can escape because the throw is weight based, and mewtwo begins firing shadow balls slower on heavyweights as a result. Yoshi has exactly one frame of animation to act before the balls, allowing him to engage his double jump which has armor from frame 1. So he only sustains 5% damage from the throw instead of the full 13%. Furthermore, Yoshi has enough time to aim his double jump above Mewtwo and use Down B as a guaranteed 12% punish.
For Greninja, he can shadow sneak cancel toward mewtwo for the initial throw and only sustain 3% as he lands next to mewtwo. However, Mewtwo can act first in this scenario, getting at least a free jab, Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, or Usmash before Greninja can pull up shield. Greninja might instead prefer to sneak away from mewtwo, causing him to clank an attack on one shadow ball before getting hit by the last. He will sustain 5% damage in that scenario, and be forced to land, but that may be preferable to getting comboed or killed by a mewtwo that's aware of the trick.
I know Bowser (and other characters at least as heavy as yoshi) have about a frame of control before getting hit by the shadow balls, but I never found an escape method for Bowser. Even if Bowser has three frames of animation to do something, his air dodge requires 4 before becoming invulnerable. So I'm interested in hearing how he gets out. Mewtwo's Fthrow can also be escaped while the victim is being pelted by shadow balls if they DI/SDI upward. It requires the victim to be at a very high %, or Mewtwo to have at least 100% damage worth of rage. The first condition is sort of moot as Mewtwo is more likely to Uthrow in this scenario. If the second condition is met, sustaining just 9 or 11% from the throw is possible even if you are at 0%.
Im starting to think "positioning" isnt a very good reason for a throw being good. It basically means that the throw has too much BKB to combo into anything, but too low KBG to be a good kill throw.
That and basically every throw is good for positioning, when you throw an opponent you have taken stage control and that doesnt really change from character to character. I guess lower angle is a good thing for positioning.
I agree entirely. "Positioning" came up a lot for Up throws and it was odd because literally every Uthrow sends the opponent upward. If you looked entirely at throws that don't kill and don't combo, none of them put the target in the air "better" than another. With Fthrow it's the same thing with a launch angle of 40-50 degrees, with few exceptions.
Even if Bowser has three frames of animation to do something, his air dodge requires 4 before becoming invulnerable. So I'm interested in hearing how he gets out.
Don't know if we're talking about FThrow or UThrow, but here are my thoughts on some UThrows.
- Not sure if this has been mentioned, but his UThrow has good combo potential at lower percents, and acts as a mix-up from the classic DThrow > UTilt chain.
/ - Acts as a pretty good kill throw at high percents, which makes it a bit better than the other, "average" ones in my opinion.
- Her best combo throw at low-mid percents. While it isn't true, UThrow > WTwist or UAir is always worth going for if you land a grab at that percent range. It can even be used to condition an airdodge, which can be punished.
Forward throw 's is pretty standard and or good, I guess? 11% is pretty sweet damage to deal in Vanilla, & a certain point to make is that his Fthrow is a two-hit throw with the second hit dealing the 8% which means that it's better than what it could of been, which is being that the second hit could of been 3% instead of 8% like how some first hits could deal more than the second i.e 4% / 3%. Shulk's Fthrow in a standard position is his third strongest kill throw behind his Dthrow & Bthrow, but is a good throw to use when you stale Bthrow more. With arts (which is something I really shouldn't bring up too often so I'll make it brief), Jump's air mobility makes it possible to follow-up with more hunting aggression off-stage due to how opponents will hold DI towards stage at a 55°. Speed art reduces the damage enough that the KB is reduced enough to allow tech-chase reads to be made at those early percents on top of the capable ground speed to follow them eagarly. Shield art simply makes it a get-out-of-my-center-stage throw which is still good considering opponents will run away from shield art afterward whether you do use the throw or not. Buster art is so much raw damage dealing 15.4% on top of low kb that puts a bit of pressure on the opponent to back away from the art's ground-game. And obviously smash art will make it kill-worthy or setup into a likely early gimp edgeguard off-stage.
Additionally, the throw has frontal range in front of Shulk that's so good even a nearby opponent in Doubles trying to intervene will be hit by the collateral slashing hit & be pushed slightly away with a Sakural Angle launch. This means that in Doubles you will never kill your teammate which is always a plus, plus this collateral hit doesn't deal much damage so it's not a regretful occurrence should you hit your teammate close-by. Oh & it's also neat because Fthrow to Shulk has the least amount of endlag. I'd rate it C or B tier.
I personally rate Gunner's F-Throw in the same "tier" as Eki's. They are pretty much the same. Gunner's does deal 2% less damage (Eki's deal 7% while Gunner's deals 5%) and is weight dependent, but it is also used the same way as Eki's. Gunner does gain more from the throw, but I don't think wii (I had to) should count that. Gaining stage control or forcing into edgeguarding situations depends from the character. Or rather the reward from them. For example Gunner is all about stage control and edgeguarding so the idea is to throw foes away so you gain the control of the stage or get a situation to edgeguard. Anyways his throw could be also compared to that of a Tink's. Worthy of a C tier (if C tier = good/decent)
Swordspider's F-Throw is nothing special. Deals 6% and is used to gain stage control and setting up edgeguarding situation. Either C or D tier is good.
I personally rate Gunner's F-Throw in the same "tier" as Eki's. They are pretty much the same. Gunner's does deal 2% less damage (Eki's deal 7% while Gunner's deals 5%) and is weight dependent, but it is also used the same way as Eki's. Gunner does gain more from the throw, but I don't think wii (I had to) should count that. Gaining stage control or forcing into edgeguarding situations depends from the character. Or rather the reward from them. For example Gunner is all about stage control and edgeguarding so the idea is to throw foes away so you gain the control of the stage or get a situation to edgeguard. Anyways his throw could be also compared to that of a Tink's. Worthy of a C tier (if C tier = good/decent)
Swordspider's F-Throw is nothing special. Deals 6% and is used to gain stage control and setting up edgeguarding situation. Either C or D tier is good.
Gunner can tech chase with charge blast after a forward throw at low to mid percents. Gunner also gets a guaranteed dash attack or charge blast from forward throw at low to mid percents if they miss the tech. Gunner can also jab lock an opponent at low percents with a partly charged charge blast after a forward throw. While Gunner's forward throw would be better with a damage increase, Gunner can get some good reward from the throw, and it should be higher on this list.
While Gunner can get the CB, like you stated, not everyone runs CB. Thous who have Grenades or Lasers don't get the luxury of follow ups. Ofc the Dash Attack is a thing, but many characters also get DA follow up from F-Throw so nothing special about it in that sense. Like I said I personally think he does deserve a place within the same "tier" as Eki's F-Throw.
I think S tier could move down into A. I already hold kill throws up to intense scrutiny because they have these animations that allow the victim time to decide on DI. Known kill setups are the same way. With moves that kill outright, like a stray back air, you only have the time window of the move's hitlag to input DI, and human's aren't so perfect. Using the kill percentage list with DI:
I personally expect that Fthrows from Rosalina onward are not something you can expect to kill in just any match. Yes, Falcon and Ganon are heavyweights so they build a lot of rage, but they are also some of the most likely characters to die early from a good edgeguard. I also notice that, at least with stages that have FD's boundaries, Olimar's blue Fthrow always kills later than Blue Uthrow, but you can still look at it comparatively to others even if it's useless to the character. With that line of logic, I think no throw is worthy of its own F tier unless there are reasons beyond it being never used, like it being unsafe to use at low percents.
So, by moving Bowser and Wario in with A tier and renaming DK's tier to S, my changes would be.
C to A B to A D to C (it's got better damage and kill power than Mario and Doc at least) D to B (Smash art makes this viable for killing, and I know that landing against Speed and Recovering against Jump are scary situations) B to C (dunno what it's doing here. Not viable for killing and Bthrow deals 3% more damage).
Unless somebody's taking on the initiative, I suppose I'll get to work on Bthrow data to have for later.
fthrow should be moved up to C, it deals 10% and puts the opponent offstage, which is where puff generally likes her opponents.
X tier is kinda unnecessary, move DK into S and Bowser and Wario down to A. Zard and ganon can also move up to A.
Robin's fthrow at least has a deadly mixup, it can move up to D. Game and Watch's is literally the throw equivalent of Din's Fire, if you want an F tier put that in there.
Oh, and Roy should be moved down to B, since he wouldn't fit in with the new A. It is a straight upgrade of Marth's with fthrow into side B that works on everybody, but the nastiest combo he can pull off otherwise is Fthrow to Nair on some matchups at mid to high percent, which is a 17% combo. I don't like that on the same tier as Kirby and Sheik's throws which have similar damage output but combo for much larger ranges and aren't weight dependent. Lucario might also need a move down because he has no business living as long as 150% in any competitive match. Except maybe against the likes of Sheik, or the few other characters that have an equally difficult time closing stocks - 1111 Brawler...maybe duck hunt? And even when he does live that long, it's only comparable to Bayonetta's, so he should be down there with her.
Yeah Robin's FThrow can mixup into Elthunder/Thoron.
Game & Watch's FThrow and BThrows are decent positional throws, nothing more. They do average damage but aren't inherently bad. All his throws basically have the same animation, too, so there's slight mix up potential there. I don't really see what makes it worse than other throws that only yield positional advantage. If anything he can get more from edgeguarding than a lot of the cast, so there's that.
Gonna say that I feel a throw's knockback angle, kill power, combo ability, & endlag will decide a good chunk of a ranking's thought, but the damage dealt is a side-factor as well. Damage doesn't fully decide a ranking alone, but if a throw has nothing else going on for it except for damage then it can warrant at least C tier. Positional advantage is always a generic feature to a throw because all throws do this in their respective launch angle, so positional advantage can be mentioned but holds little merit unless strong 50/50s or combos are a thing.
5° includes:
28° includes:
40° includes:
42° includes:
43° includes:
45° includes:
46° includes:
48° includes: (Fthrow Cargo Dthrow)
49° includes:
50° includes:
55° includes:
58° includes:
60° includes: (Fthrow Cargo Fthrow)
65° includes:
70° includes:
72° includes: (Fthrow Cargo Bthrow)
75° includes:
90° includes: (Fthrow Cargo Uthrow)
361° includes:
Generally, a positional throw like Fthrow doesn't normally see combo ability, so Fthrows & Bthrows become more geared towards stage control & getting edge-guards. Launch angles that are higher than a standard angle or lower are more susceptible to being weakened in performance due to proper survival DI to ruin it's attempt to kill or edge-guard. Then again, DI'ing a certain way against said Fthrow will create 50/50s with good or bad guesses.
WII FIT DEEP BREATHING includes: Standard: 10% Fastest: 12% Slowest: 11.6%
Damage is not an important factor to how high the Fthrow's ranking should be, but it can still be a factor nonetheless. For example, Zelda dealing 12% alongside characters like Bowser & Wario means that she shouldn't be ranked D or C tier to me at least. Even if her Fthrow doesn't kill as early as theirs, it still warrants B tier imo.
By the way, The Mario Bros.'s F-throws can lead into jab lock at low percents (Like, 10%) in case the opponent misses the tech. Mario can use his F-air spike while Luigi and Doc can use their respective projectiles. And you know what those mean? COMBOOOOOOOOSSSSSS.
Luigi's F-throw can also lead into F-airs too at low percents, but D-throw is more reliable for that (Although, it's super hard to DI when done without pummels, so it can screw up the opponent's DI). I believe Mario can also chain a B-air or two with his own.
By the way, also nominating Ganon's F-throw to A. 13% damage + one pummel is already 16%. It also sets up for an edgeguard situation where Ganon shines. It has no combo ability but it does what F-throws need to do (And that is assuming he needs combos when D-throw partially already does the job) very well.
Additionally, Ganon's Fthrow is consistent 13% all the time no questions asked. Mewtwo's however can be DI'd in a way that you either take 11%, or depending on very specific character MUs explained earlier by folks in the thread, Mewtwo's Fthrow will deal the worst-case scenario 5%. Usually though it can deal 11% or sometimes 9% once in a blue moon perhaps. So yeah, this is another reason why I'd rate Ganon's A tier & Mewtwo's B tier or A tier.
Game & Watch's FThrow and BThrows are decent positional throws, nothing more. They do average damage but aren't inherently bad. All his throws basically have the same animation, too, so there's slight mix up potential there. I don't really see what makes it worse than other throws that only yield positional advantage. If anything he can get more from edgeguarding than a lot of the cast, so there's that.
It doesn't send high enough to give G&W a good chunk of stage control but it sends too high to completely avoid any followups. Yes, G&W can edgeguard well, but the angle is such that the opponent can just drift back over the stage by the time you get in their range. And yes, you're not sure exactly what throw G&W is using until you're launched, but so what? G&W isn't going to get anything out of it anyway. You may as well always expect dthrow (except at the lowest percents when uthrow has combos) because the others do diddly squat, mixups or no.
Roy's fthrow has the best jab lock from a throw in the game, most people dont know about it, however.
If their opponent's damage is over 4%, fthrow -> RAR Bair will jab lock, which can follow up with jab->grab->Dthrow->Blazer. The entire combo deals something ridiculous like 52%, works on the entire cast except super floaties (actually works better on midweights than fast-fallers), and the whole combo is true unless the opponent techs the fthrow. However, because of the angle, there is an incredibly short window to tech it (too short to be done on reaction).
Roy can also Fthrow->Side B which is one of his best low% combos, as it is so reliable
135
