Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[MarshieMan]

But of course you'd rank moves based on followups, especially throws. With normal attacks, there are numerous factors like proximity to target, late hit frames, safety on shield, range, move priority, kill potential, and finally followups that spell out why a move is worth using at all over something else. With throws, you skip straight to kill potential and followups because you can't perform a throw in any specific way other than how it's programmed. And Sonic's spring is just another tool in his moveset. Why should he not use it?

You can't divorce a move from its owner, because then there's no context to judge it with. It's willful ignorance.

Read my reply to the other person for a more complete explanation of my logic.

And again, by your logic kill throws would have to be ranked much lower than combo throws, because combo throws are better for damage as well as straight kill power. They are just overall better from a utility perspective.

Im perfectly fine with using your guys's logic to rank throws, so long as it takes straight utility into the most consideration. Kill throws are not as useful as combo throws by far, and logically, the most useful throws would be the best throws.

Yeah, kill confirms and 50/50s off of throws arent as consistent/free as kill throws, but they kill much much earlier than kill throws. This doesn't apply to some horizontal kill throws because they kill as early or earlier than combo throws, but that shouldn't be an issue anyways because very few forward/back throws are combo throws

 

[Kofu]

But of course you'd rank moves based on followups, especially throws. With normal attacks, there are numerous factors like proximity to target, late hit frames, safety on shield, range, move priority, kill potential, and finally followups that spell out why a move is worth using at all over something else. With throws, you skip straight to kill potential and followups because you can't perform a throw in any specific way other than how it's programmed. And Sonic's spring is just another tool in his moveset. Why should he not use it?

You can't divorce a move from its owner, because then there's no context to judge it with. It's willful ignorance.

To add onto this, every character would debatably want at least one combo throw and one good kill throw. Kill throws are pretty easy to discern; combo throws not quite as much. Some are pretty clearly great (Bowser, Diddy) but others are helped by a character's other moves and mobility.

Most kill throws from combos start working at about the same percentages that the strongest kill throws do, and they tend to be a lot more volatile than straight kill throws. I'll ask you this as a Diddy player: would Diddy rather have Diddy's UThrow or Mewtwo's UThrow? Personally I'd say UThrow because Diddy can sometimes struggle to take stocks and he has several other combo starters, including DThrow. Diddy's UThrow is good and gives him fairly consistent damage throughout a stock, but a killing throw would probably serve him better.

 

[MarshieMan]

To add onto this, every character would debatably want at least one combo throw and one good kill throw. Kill throws are pretty easy to discern; combo throws not quite as much. Some are pretty clearly great (Bowser, Diddy) but others are helped by a character's other moves and mobility.

Most kill throws from combos start working at about the same percentages that the strongest kill throws do, and they tend to be a lot more volatile than straight kill throws. I'll ask you this as a Diddy player: would Diddy rather have Diddy's UThrow or Mewtwo's UThrow? Personally I'd say UThrow because Diddy can sometimes struggle to take stocks and he has several other combo starters, including DThrow. Diddy's UThrow is good and gives him fairly consistent damage throughout a stock, but a killing throw would probably serve him better.

There should be a tier for characters who have upthrows which are both combo throws as well as have kill confirms. Then B tier should be for kill throws as well as combo throws that lack kill confirms or 50/50s.

Yeah, i know it sounds stupid or crazy but think about it, bowser/diddy/ike can each ko confirm at much earlier percents than an upthrow from mewtwo will get you.

To answer your question:
As a diddy main i would go with the kill throw, but only because he already has a combo throw. If it weren't for diddy having Dthrow i would definitely choose the combo throw over the kill throw.
Why?
Combo throws have so many more uses. They can be used to deal damage at low percent as well as kill at higher percents. Kill throws are only good for killing

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, i know it sounds stupid or crazy but think about it, bowser/diddy/ike can each ko confirm at much earlier percents than an upthrow from mewtwo will get you.

I thought the fixation on Diddy was odd. You seem to think he has kill confirms from Uthrow. He doesn't, not conventionally. Lightweight fast fallers come close, but all they need to do is mash air dodge to cancel hitstun. It depends on his Uthrow being massively staled (that is, used about five times from the last ten connected moves), and Uair to not be staled. And even then I think we're only talking slight guaranteed ranges on sheik, sheik, and sheik, that begin at about 130% according to write ups by Diddy mains. Almost the same point where Mewtwo gets a kill with his for putting in no extra effort.

 

[MarshieMan]

I thought the fixation on Diddy was odd. You seem to think he has kill confirms from Uthrow. He doesn't, not conventionally. Lightweight fast fallers come close, but all they need to do is mash air dodge to cancel hitstun. It depends on his Uthrow being massively staled (that is, used about five times from the last ten connected moves), and Uair to not be staled. And even then I think we're only talking slight guaranteed ranges on sheik, sheik, and sheik, that begin at about 130% according to write ups by Diddy mains. Almost the same point where Mewtwo gets a kill with his for putting in no extra effort.

Diddy's Uthrow -> Uair is not a ko confirm, its a 50/50 and mashing air dodge is a bad way to deal with it.

Watch zero play top 32 at shine these last few days, he's made excellent use of diddy's 50/50

And yes, it KOs at about the same percent as mewtwos Uthrow, but keep in mind that diddy can also use it as a low percent combo throw and get 15-30% off of it.

Its the combination of damage output and KO potential that make it so much better than mewtwo's up throw

Edit: im a diddy main, of course i know his upthrow doesnt true combo into death. Technically it does but only for like a 5% window on mid weights, and although it does have a larger true combo percent range on fast fallers, it doesnt ko till 150 without rage.

I fully understand the limitations of diddy's up throw but i still consider it miles better than mewtwo's(read above)

Also, since we're apparently considering follow ups, falco's upthrow should be at least A tier. Up throw->Uair->Bair is true and deals 32 damage. It also works from 0-50% (although the Bair is not guaranteed before 10-20%)

It also has a high percent 50/50 if the opponent gets caught by the laser.


The only reason people don't realize how good it is, is because falco has difficulty getting grabs. If he could get grabs as easily as diddy, it would be straight up broken.

And since we aren't considering how good the characters' grabs are, this shouldnt affect falco's placement

we're only talking slight guaranteed ranges on sheik, sheik, and sheik.

Also this is wrong. Diddy can true combo into death from around 140-160 on any fast faller. Falco, captain falcon, dedede, sheik, and fox to name a few. Thats a pretty good window and it only gets better with rage.

I get your point though, and honestly thats very few characters so it doesnt really matter.

Edit: i want to make it clear that im not saying diddy has an amazing confirm off of Uair. Its very situational and unconventional(if their percent is that high you might as well go for a banana kill). However, diddy does have a really good 50/50, which is what im mostly referring to. I did lump him together with ike and bowser, which was wrong only by a slight technicality.

 

[randomtechguy142857]

Shulk's in D-tier? It deserves IMO B-tier at absolute worst. It's not a kill throw but in Vanilla and Jump art it has combos into Air Slash and some other moves at low percents, an incredible 50-50 in Jump art that works for a very large percent range, in Speed art it allows you to set up the utilt landing trap, and of course in Buster it combos into a string of utilts -> Air Slash.

 

[Masonomace]

's up throw is similar to 's as it does double duty as a combo throw and a kill throw. Lucario's Up throw -> reverse hit fair -> bair kills at like . . 35% with enough aura. Bonkers!

Oh my goodness thank you. You reminded me of that deadly setup, & because you mention that Uthrow is a kill throw at later percents, I did some training mode labbing with Mario on FD similar to Zapp Branniglenn 's post.

180%: 160% with optimal DI from center stage
164%: 170% with optimal DI from center stage
148%: 181% with optimal DI from center stage
133%: 191% with optimal DI from center stage

Maxim Tomato & food are a blessing.
---
I'm also a Uthrow believer now. I like the throw being somewhere in the B - A tier region.
----
And I did kill percents with every Uthrow in Training Mode on Mario at FD center stage similarly to his previous post.

Spoiler: Table compiling every Uthrow KO % on Mario with optimal DI

Character | Uthrow KO % | D e a d l y B l o w starting %
| 261% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 257%
| 242% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 239%
| 201% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 195%
| 199% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 197%
| 157% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 128%
| 212% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 205%
| 156% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 155%
| 201% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 202%
| 312% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 311%
| 241% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 243%
| 221% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 223%
| 213% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 213%
| 250% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 248%
| 276% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 278%
| 229% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 231%
| 169% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 168%
| 321% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 320%
| 266% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 269%
| 251% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 254%
| 158% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 152%
| 166% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 167%
| 260% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 256%
0% | 346% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 345%
70% | 252% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 252%
190% | 154% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 154%
| 148% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 149%
| 174% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 173%
| 192% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 194%
| 217% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 218%
| 172% with optimal | starts appearing at 172%
| 210% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 212%
| 183% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 176%
| 135% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 136%
(0/0) | 386% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 383%
(50/50) | 383% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 380%
(100/100) | 380% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 377%
(0/0) | 189% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 190%
(50/50) | 189% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 190%
(100/100) | 188% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 189%
(0/0) | 328% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 321%
(50/50) | 326% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 319%
(100/100) | 326% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 317%
| 260% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 262%
| 201% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 203%
(blue pikmin) | 154% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 151%
| 200% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 201%
| 184% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 184%
| 201% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 201%
| 197% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 198%
| 162% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 158%
| 321% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 319%
| 201% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 200%
| 181% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 178%
| 201% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 201%
| 257% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 261%
| 537% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 532%
普(Vanilla) | 310% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 310%
撃(Smash) | 231% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 231%
| 189% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 188%
| 181% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 181%
| 212% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 214%
| 215% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 216%
| 191% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 189%
Deep Breathing?? | ??
| 492% with optimal / DI | starts appearing at 496%
| 209% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 209%
| 274% with optimal DI | starts appearing at 228%

Notes:

• DI'ing behind Fox's Uthrow won't deal as much laser damage to you. You'll take more laser damage if you DI in front of Fox's Uthrow
• Lucario, Lucina, Marth, & Roy all scoot forward a bit after the Uthrow. Didn't really notice it with other characters.
• Food really helps labbing Lucario Aura stuff.
• I have to leave soon so I didn't finish the Mii sizes & other characters that I already had data on, but will do that when I have time again, so I'll edit this table within the spoiler & have that completed soon.
• Deep Breathing is a really, really weird thing. Can a WFT trainer that is extremely knowledgeable about Deep Breathing or anyone who's very aware of it fully tell me what the fest this move is & why it's different for when you use it successfully the first time, mess up the first time and or second time.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Why is DK's up throw in A tier? I've never seen a Donkey Kong player even use it, so I have no idea if it's any good or not, but the fact that it never gets used tells me it probably shouldn't be A tier.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Why is DK's up throw in A tier? I've never seen a Donkey Kong player even use it, so I have no idea if it's any good or not, but the fact that it never gets used tells me it probably shouldn't be A tier.

I can only assume they're talking about cargo uthrow.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I can only assume they're talking about cargo uthrow.

Except that is forward throw. It should not be considered when discussing up throw.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm with Hypnotoad on that.

Uthrow is not DKs Uthrow, that is his Fthrow.

 

[Masonomace]

Uthrow is not that amazing to be A tier. Killing Mario in Training Mode at 241% with optimal DI from center stage is nothing spectacular, but the damage isn't bad since it does deal 9%. Again though, a throw for this, I'd give it a C or D rating.

 

[TDK]

and should move up just because their throws do 10+ % with no rage while also granting stage control.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

and should move up just because their throws do 10+ % with no rage while also granting stage control.

and do too. But why is 10% the deal breaker? and (who deserves D) have 9%, is that a tier's worth of difference?

 

[Routa]

I do agree that Wario's U-throw deserves to go up a tier. It deals high damage and starts "CATCH THAT LANDING" game and Wario isn't that bad at it. His U-throw is his main throw at low % due to high damage and it being able to put in tech situation on stages like BF just like the fellow Wario player said. It isn't amazing throw, but it is good. Deserves to be a tier higher if you ask mii (dem punz)

 

[adom4]

and should move up just because their throws do 10+ % with no rage while also granting stage control.

Ganon's F-throw does 14%, it completely outclasses U-throw except in a very rare mixup against a few characters (mostly Ganon and Bowser).

 

[Flamegeyser]

I don't see much problem with making cargo uthrow count as uthrow. We count all of Ryu's tilts for both attacks, and if we counted cargo as one throw then it'd be worth FOUR once we get to fthrow. So long as it's consistent once we get to fthrow, and it counts for just his cargo fthrow by necessity, it should be fine.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryu's stuff is the same input/move. DK's Cargo Throw stuff you have to start off with forward throw. They are then put into a "set" state and you get to choose where to throw them out of that "set" state.

The state is tied to fthrow, so all of Cargo Throw goes under fthrow. I don't have a perfect comparison but that would be like, idk trying to say Wario's Bike tricks should be listed under different things because after the initial input you can do things like wheelie or jump off or use it as an item or eat it. All of those things require a different input from the initial, but they all rely on the initial side B being inputed first.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't see much problem with making cargo uthrow count as uthrow. We count all of Ryu's tilts for both attacks, and if we counted cargo as one throw then it'd be worth FOUR once we get to fthrow. So long as it's consistent once we get to fthrow, and it counts for just his cargo fthrow by necessity, it should be fine.

It's technically not his Uthrow, it's his Fthrow that is ultimately doing it.

 

[TDK]

and do too. But why is 10% the deal breaker? and (who deserves D) have 9%, is that a tier's worth of difference?

and all have combo throws, rendering their up throws pretty useless since they're not kill throws, and they'd ultimately get more off of the combo throws than just throwing the opponent up. With for example, when she throws you she's looking for stage control and percent, so having all her throws do 10% is extremely helpful. Additionally, with Jigglypuff having the best aerial mobility in the game, being above her can be troublesome if you don't have a good landing option. She doesn't get anything true off of it, but she can follow you and hit you with a move most of the time. It's not horrible, especially doing 10% and getting stage control when you're playing a character that can start killing as early as 55.

Ganon's F-throw does 14%, it completely outclasses U-throw except in a very rare mixup against a few characters (mostly Ganon and Bowser).

Ganon's F-throw does 14? I had no idea. Well then, his Uthrow should stay D.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

and all have combo throws, rendering their up throws pretty useless since they're not kill throws, and they'd ultimately get more off of the combo throws than just throwing the opponent up. With for example, when she throws you she's looking for stage control and percent, so having all her throws do 10% is extremely helpful. Additionally, with Jigglypuff having the best aerial mobility in the game, being above her can be troublesome if you don't have a good landing option. She doesn't get anything true off of it, but she can follow you and hit you with a move most of the time. It's not horrible, especially doing 10% and getting stage control when you're playing a character that can start killing as early as 55.


Ganon's F-throw does 14? I had no idea. Well then, his Uthrow should stay D.

Ganon and Wario both have throws that deal more damage than Uthrow. Furthermore, Ganon does have a combo throw, it's just weight based so it doesn't work on heavyweights, or anybody besides Sheik who can DI away as far as I've seen. Jigglypuff's throws all deal 10 and none combo or kill, and I don't agree with your assessment of her. She hates the opponent being above her. Her Usmash is hot garbage and her Uair is such short range it trades or loses to any Dair or nair. All her aerials are this way. Jigglypuff can never afford a trade, she wants her Fthrow and Bthrow more than anything for edgeguards and early gimps.

 

[Masonomace]

Wait, woah woah woah. I'm just now finishing up that table of Uthrow KO %s & I'm on 0/0 atm. And I just picked this character & witnessed my Mario dummy use optimal / DI to evade the Uthrow & you simply just can't. This Uthrow basically is very similar to except at least with Falco's you can DI behind the bird & you can evade the laser to not be hit & KO'd by it. However, you simply can't with , I haven't tried to do combos or simulate anything notable with Gunner's Uthrow yet, but if it can combo like Falco's can, then I'm very shocked as to why it's C tier & Falco's is B tier.

I'm also labbing Dthrows so that's why I'm not replying all that much.

EDIT: Also made a tier list ranking of Uthrows with kill power to reflect my table of info:​

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This Uthrow basically is very similar to except at least with Falco's you can DI behind the bird & you can evade the laser to not be hit & KO'd by it. However, you simply can't with , I haven't tried to do combos or simulate anything notable with Gunner's Uthrow yet, but if it can combo like Falco's can, then I'm very shocked as to why it's C tier & Falco's is B tier.

No. Well, sort of. It has 13-22 more endlag than Falco's (weight dependent), and Gunner's Uair has 17 startup to Falco's 7. I think on Sheik-characters only there's a small Uair range that they have to air dodge to avoid. And Uair is just shy of the active frames necessary to beat all of an air dodge's I-frames. Still, I think Uthrow is the only throw of hers that's worth using, even though Dthrow has less endlag against all characters except Jigglypuff, it's angle is more susceptible to DI for combos. Definitely not B material. Probably not even C. Gunner's just under the area with WFT, Samus, and Zelda where guaranteed combos exist, but only at precise ranges of five or so matchups.

 

[meticulousboy]

Where would Peach's Uthrow fall? I heard it's useless on Discord, but it's not entirely true. I was able to KO a Bowser Junior and Jigglypuff with Uthrow. Granted, I was near max rage (150%). But that's the point. Rage helps with that. Also, Uthrow can help to start juggling big opponents. While dealing 8% damage, it has the highest BKB of all her other throws.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Gunner's up throw true combos into an up tilt at low percents on fastfallers (It works on more than 5 characters but I haven't tested all of the fastfallers yet). Up throw to nair might be able to frame trap some characters at low percents. The main reason why up throw to up air is better than a 50-50 with a DI read is because up air lasts so long that it can catch airdodges unless the opponent's airdodge is frame perfect.

No. Well, sort of. It has 13-22 more endlag than Falco's (weight dependent), and Gunner's Uair has 17 startup to Falco's 7. I think on Sheik-characters only there's a small Uair range that they have to air dodge to avoid. And Uair is just shy of the active frames necessary to beat all of an air dodge's I-frames. Still, I think Uthrow is the only throw of hers that's worth using, even though Dthrow has less endlag against all characters except Jigglypuff, it's angle is more susceptible to DI for combos. Definitely not B material. Probably not even C. Gunner's just under the area with WFT, Samus, and Zelda where guaranteed combos exist, but only at precise ranges of five or so matchups.

All of Gunner's throws are worth using. Fthrow and Bthrow are good for setting up tech chases at low percents. Gunner can also use a partially charged charge blast to jab lock an opponent after one of these throws at low percents. Fthrow or Bthrow to dash attack is also a good mixup at low to mid percents since dash attack has a good disjoint for beating out aerials. Dthrow to sh nair is a true combo on heavies, fastfallers and some tall characters at low percents. Dthrow to Footstool can allow Gunner to get great damage from low percent grabs by following an opponent's DI and responding to an opponent's get up option (I am not sure if it is a true combo since I am not that good at footstool combos, but it can possibly lead to 50% damage on fastfallers). Dthrow to up air also kills if the Gunner player gets a DI read.

 

[Ffamran]

Wait, woah woah woah. I'm just now finishing up that table of Uthrow KO %s & I'm on 0/0 atm. And I just picked this character & witnessed my Mario dummy use optimal / DI to evade the Uthrow & you simply just can't. This Uthrow basically is very similar to except at least with Falco's you can DI behind the bird & you can evade the laser to not be hit & KO'd by it. However, you simply can't with , I haven't tried to do combos or simulate anything notable with Gunner's Uthrow yet, but if it can combo like Falco's can, then I'm very shocked as to why it's C tier & Falco's is B tier.

Having the launch hit be 90 degrees to Falco's 94 helps -- Brawl and Melee's were even worse at 107 degrees. Also, I've seen Falco's U-throw launch people in front of him at low to mid-percents -- tournament match between a Falco and a ZSS somewhere on YouTube --, so... Anyway, Mii Gunner does fire faster at 18 frames to Falco's 21. Both share a frame 7 launch and while Mii Gunner's is weight dependent, let's just ignore that for a bit. At the earliest which would probably only happen at low percents, the frame gap between Mii Gunner's is 10 frames; Falco's is 13 frames. Those 3 frames can add up, especially at higher percents.

As Zapp said, however, Mii Gunner's U-throw does have higher recovery. Mii Gunner's U-throw is a mix of Falco and Fox's; it has Falco's single followup shot that has knockback, but Fox's launch hit angle of 90 degrees and 49 total frames. All three share the same launch hit frame of 7. Recovery-wise and I'm not counting the followup shots at all for Falco or Mii Gunner and obviously Fox since his don't do any knockback, Falco's is always 32 frames, Fox's is always 43 frames, and Mii Gunner's is around 43 frames give or take depending on weight. If we consider the followup shot of Mii Gunner's since it's more consistent, then it's 32 frames at the lowest. First off, Fox would definitely kill for Falco's U-throw recovery. Where it differs outside of damage, knockback, aerials to followup with, and their differing jump heights is Mii Gunner's weight dependent whereas Falco and Fox's aren't. On knockback, Mii Gunner's launch hit shares Fox's damage of 2%, but lower overall knockback at 75 base and 53 growth to Fox's 75 base and 110 growth. It makes sense since Mii Gunner's lower growth would help with the followup connecting as the opponent wouldn't be sent as far while Fox needs to launch his opponent as high as possible. Mii Gunner's followup shot has higher overall knockback than Falco's which can be a double-edge sword. Mii Gunner might pop the opponent too high compared to Falco who at low percents, gets additional hit stun and also has his naturally high jump. All of this is going off of numbers and guessing how it would work, so it's not as valid compared to a Mii Gunner player explaining how U-throw works.

The other reason is possibly the whole we don't know anything about Miis and we don't care so they're just bad because.

Links to sixriver's pages of Falco, Fox, and Mii Gunner since they're the only place that has all of the characters' throw startup, total frames, etc.
Falco: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pc4TfF9gjj4Wn7jTFFtjgXCsgOKWHVREdoDwnB43BFU/edit#gid=0.
Fox: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J8Ju8YIcJXMJ7gYmL7i7tDB4CEK3p4kl7XM-dWuqFxI/edit#gid=0.
Mii Gunner: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16pNgrytXT0UqkBA-MPUcnYv9hbO5RNpUZBfv71Q9doM/edit#gid=0.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok just wanted to update u guys that I will be updating the list tomorrow, so get ur thoughts out now before the next change

 

[Masonomace]

Where would Peach's Uthrow fall?

Hmmm. . .Peach's Uthrow I'm not too sure about in terms of utility or usage. The throw from my brief testing on Mario in Training Mode allowed to do Uthrow > Parasol & true combo'd Mario at 0% since he wasn't able to jump away or airdodge before being hit so. The fact that it is or can be a valuable kill throw to Peach with or without rage, has that combo ability from my brief testing, & it dealing 8% which isn't that bad, I guess I'd give it a forgiving C rating. Just me though, I'm not a Peach main *shrug*

I was able to KO a Bowser Junior and Jigglypuff with Uthrow. Granted, I was near max rage (150%). But that's the point. Rage helps with that.

The reasoning for this in regards to killing is because of your Uthrow dealing additional damage to him & not his kart. Hitting Bowser Jr. & not the kart means he takes 1.15x more damage on top of a fresh Uthrow being 1.05x stronger in an actual match combined with Rage. When I simulate the testing in an actual match with 150% having max rage & Uthrowing Bowser Jr. from center stage & uses optimal DI, he'll die as early as ~158%. It's a huge difference to be going from 201% on Mario in Training Mode to 158% in an actual match with a fresh Uthrow with max rage, but that damage increase on Bowser Jr. matters too.

Killing with Peach's Uthrow at max rage requires her to be at least around ~116% even with optimal DI from center stage.

Ok just wanted to update u guys that I will be updating the list tomorrow, so get ur thoughts out now before the next change

's Uthrow to him overall I would rate B tier with or without discussion about arts. I was fine with C tier at first, but reminding myself about everything Uthrow is to Shulk, to him, & then to that victim thrown upward, it can be really scary to deal with that pressure / situation when you could die to Uair, be true combo'd by Air Slash being dealt ~17% more, or having a hard or semi-difficult time landing against his disjointed range coverage. It's rough to say the least.

in "what if" land would be right behind Mewtwo but maybe higher than Mewtwo? Idk. The thing is, Mewtwo being S tier makes sense to all of us because it is objectively the strongest Uthrow kill move in the game. But that's its strongest & maybe only good point about it, other than being great throw damage as well with other minor good points about it. When Mewtwo is at max rage 150% & Uthrows Mario regardless of optimal DI, he dies to a fresh Uthrow at ~97% whereas 190% Lucario with max rage & aura kills Mario at ~111%. Now I understand as well as we all know that Lucario is inconsistent like Shulk, because arts affect x stuff & Lucario's aura is %-dependent throughout the match. Lucario with stocks behind also has a stronger boost to his already deficit mechanic nature which makes it all the more complicated anyway, but Lucario has good solid combo power as well as that possible kill power similar to Greninja except Greninja is more consistent.

Not really sure about it all, a kill throw is obviously great & a worthy asset to a character, but a character like Lucario Greninja or Ike that have kill confirms out of Uthrow as well as Lucario & Greninja having possible kill power makes me feel like overall, Lucario Greninja or Ike could virtually have higher rankings than Mewtwo. But again, perhaps raw kill power alone has more merit than combo-power & some kill-power.

Also, not discrediting Bowser Diddy or Charizard in S tier when I didn't mention about them, because at the very least Charizard has some other utility to his Uthrow other than kill power. Diddy & Bowser have plenty of combo-power & control in their Uthrows too.

 

[HoSmash4]

ignore this

 

[NouveauRétro]

[QUOTE="Kofu, post: 21410956, member: 146107"

UThrow is okay. You can get UThrow to Fire at low percents before DThrow stuff is guaranteed. B or C tier.[/QUOTE]
Unless you're light and floaty it combos into uair if you're fast. Nair on fastfallers at 0%. Then you can Fire-fair. Uthrow-Fire-sweetspot fair alone is 25%. With uair it's 30+% off a grab at 0%. Of course, after like 20% it becomes a horrible throw, only good for 8 damage and juggle sitution. Doesn't kill until ~265%... Still the earliest kill throw on most characters, 2% earlier than his COMBO THROW fthrow and bthrow are so bad...

Pacman can't juggle anyway so his uthrow is useless compared to dthrow. Pretty sure it's even frame negative at 0%.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so new update for U-Throw coming through:

Spoiler: U-Throw

TL;DR:
S -> A
A -> C
B -> A
A -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> B
D -> C
B -> C
B -> C
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C
B -> C
F -> D

Ok so now since this is over, wanted to ask u guys if you would like to continue with Throws (since I saw a contingency), or we can move on to either Smashes or continue with Specials. Leave ur opinions and a new slate will come up likely tomorrow.

 

[Flamegeyser]

We're already doin' throws, let's go to fthrow or dthrow.
That said, why move Diddy's uthrow down to A? It's one of the most consistent uthrows in the entire game, and it practically always works. Hell, at least over Charizard, in which DI makes surviving it easy as all hell.

 

[arbustopachon]

Personally i'd prefer if we went with smashes, tho i'm ok with continuing with grabs or specials.

 

[Masonomace]

Doesn't matter to me. Though I already labbed Dthrow kill moves & know of the notable good ones that have kill power.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I would prefer to move on to a new throw and Dthrow seems the most logical.

We're already doin' throws, let's go to fthrow or dthrow.
That said, why move Diddy's uthrow down to A? It's one of the most consistent uthrows in the entire game, and it practically always works. Hell, at least over Charizard, in which DI makes surviving it easy as all hell.

Because Diddy's Uthrow lacks the kill setups that even A tier throws like Ike and Sonic possess. And while it is consistent, the damage we're talking about that isn't some kind of mixup is typically 11 total, which is especially underwhelming next to Bowser's 15-30. Or if we're considering specific matchup possibilities, 15-49. And Bowser naturally has Diddy beat in kill potential.

I don't approve of the Pits moving to B though. Doesn't kill, doesn't combo, and nobody supported a move up. It's debatably C, though that doesn't say much. There's no debate to be had about C when there's still no differentiation between C and D that I can figure out.

 

[Masonomace]

I don't approve of the Pits moving to B though. Doesn't kill, doesn't combo, and nobody supported a move up. It's debatably C, though that doesn't say much. There's no debate to be had about C when there's still no differentiation between C and D that I can figure out.

The move deals 11% by itself which isn't a bad reason to stay B rank, but damage alone is pretty nice enough that it shouldn't be D tier. Then again, all of us never went through a damage threshold that defines what the damage requirement is to be D or C tier. And after that point, damage doesn't really matter to you unless you're Mewtwo dealing 12% & being the best killing Uthrow in the game so it's extra icing for Mewtwo.

But yeah. . .11%, & all the reasons you mention. However, with max rage it can probably kill early? Would have to lab test it by simulating it in an actual match setting though. I guess what can be critiqued about C / D tier is whether the throw has too much endlag that it can't setup into 50/50s or true combo into things, whether the damage is high or low, or the BKB / KBG being high or low enough to warrant that rating difference. It's up in the air for me too, so I wouldn't know how to decide =/

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ya Pits should have stayed in C.

Dthrow sounds right to me.

 

[meticulousboy]

Dthrow is too common. Let's save that for last. Do Fthrow.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I vote for Smashes, since such a ranking would be a useful resource for show players who are inexperienced with that character. In order to explain throws you also have to explain follow-ups, but with smashes there's generally not too much to explain.

 

[jet56]

I vote smashes as well, simple to rank mostly, so those wont be too hard.