Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Deleted member]

I think we should continue with throws since we already started with a throw. It would seem a little off to do a different set of moves and then end up back to ranking throws later.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I also think we should just finish the throws before moving onto smashes.

 

[Lorde]

There are 3 more throws to do

We've done uthrow, and there's still fthrow, bthrow, and dthrow left

 

[Flamegeyser]

Yeah, we shouldn't just switch off throws when we've already started it.

 

[Lorde]

I don't really care, but we did go from uspecial>tilts a few weeks ago

 

[MarshieMan]

Because Diddy's Uthrow lacks the kill setups that even A tier throws like Ike and Sonic possess. And while it is consistent, the damage we're talking about that isn't some kind of mixup is typically 11 total, which is especially underwhelming next to Bowser's 15-30. Or if we're considering specific matchup possibilities, 15-49. And Bowser naturally has Diddy beat in kill potential.

Diddy Uthrow->double Bair is true from 10-40% (depending on fall speed) and deals like 25%.

Also what makes diddy's UThrow so good is that it has confirmed follow ups until 110%+ while bowser and ike top off at around 70-80%

 

[ARGHETH]

I don't really care, but we did go from uspecial>tilts a few weeks ago

That's more because most Specials have different purposes. Uspecial is the clearest (largely recovery and sometimes killing off the top), but it's harder to decide the effectiveness of the others.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so I guess people prefer a more consistent order on our topics which totally makes sense, so with this we will be moving on to Forward-Throw this slate.

Discuss and the preliminary list will come up tommorow.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Probably A. It leads to so many combos.
Probably C. Down-throw is generally better.
Probably C. Down-throw is generally better.
Probably S. Ding dong is so good.

 

[adom4]

's F-throw doesn't lead to anything or kills, but it's the most damaging F-throw in the game after buster doing 14%, i can see it being in B tier considering that most F-throws are rather unremarkable.
Also i disagree about being in C, his F-throw will pretty much always send them far enough offstage for an edgeguarding situation, it should be at least in B tier.

 

[Poisonous]

Wario's Fthrow is probably S tier looking at how mediocre most Fthrows are. It's almost identical to Bowser's fthrow iirc, it does a solid chunk of damage and kills. Not really much more to ask for.

 

[LRodC]

Donkey Kong's cargo throw is one of the best throws in the game overall. Ding dong, early % combos, and cargo down throw is a nice off stage tool.

Wario, Bowser, Pit, Lucas, and Bayonetta have good forward throws for killing.

Mewtwo and Ganondorf have good forward throws for damage.

Duck Hunt's forward throw is nice to lead into can and set up good positioning.

Kirby's is a great combo throw.

Sheik's combos at early percents.

Roy can set up strings and tech chases from his throw.

Ness's forward throw is nice for an early off stage situation for your opponent.

These are the most notable that come to mind.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's f-throw is ok. It deals 10%, sends the opponent on a 40º degree angle, has 60 bkb and 65 kbg.

It is a very good throw for getting a good stage positioning and setting up edgeguards and in certain situations (The smashville moving platform for example) can kill earlier than Zard's u-throw. It also scales rather well with rage.

So B for it? F-throws aren't really that notable.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Fthrow... depends heavily on if you're including doubles or not in this list.

Singles? Nothing special at all. 4% damage, low angle means its not bad for tossing people off stage but that's about it. Can't combo after it at all.

However in doubles, its a good throw. Key thing: Ike's Fthrow and Bthrow are 100% identical outside of what the animation looks like. Any team combos you set up with Ike's throws will work regardless of which way he's facing. The low angle and overall low knockback means that its 1) a throw that keeps the opponent in your partner's reach pretty much the whole game 2) A throw that doesn't vary quickly due to rage/damage on the opponent so your partner will know where to place himself very easily.

So if its just singles, pretty low though I don't know how most Fthrows look like to rate it. If it includes doubles it moves up.

 

[Bowserboy3]

As far as Fthrows go, 's is definetly on the lower end of the spectrum, but considering it can set up a Fair up to around 20%, it's automatically better than a decent few other character's Fthrows. It also sends at a decent angle to read an opponent up to around 60%, as in you can Fthrow them past 20% and jump up with them, and react to their option. Overall, below average, but not the worst.

's is an above average throw. Can combo into Fair at very low percents. It sets up into separated Luma shenanigans. With a slight bit of rage, it can also KO near the ledge at around 150%, which is nice.

's is average. It's got decent damage, and you can't get much off of it, but the fact that it can combo into Flip Kick spike with no/poor DI at mid percents makes it at the least average in my books. You DI poorly/for a different throw? You lose your stock.

's is another average/middle of the road one. Once again, almost nothing off of it, but it does have decent KO power near the ledge and average damage.

's is arguably one of the better Fthrows in the game. Dealing 13% damage, this is as much damage as some characters get off of a Dthrow to an aerial for example. Going into free for all/team environments, the moving hitboxes can also pose a threat to other characters around him too. Doesn't KO, but it doesn't need to when he has 2 other kill throws. It does it's job, which is being a strong option after a grab, and helpful refreshing the stale move queue/not staling his kill throws.

Something that's going to be a common thing for is how his throws are affected by Aura. Without, you can't get much off of this Fthrow outside of a tech chase, it has low damage, and cannot KO, but with high Aura, deals respectable damage, often averaging at around 10% (can even reach 13% at max Aura IIRC), and can KO near the ledge at around 140% even with just semi-high Aura. I'd say no lower than middle/average at worst, but it just depends how much you want to factor in Aura when ranking him. Could otherwise be above average.

's is pretty poor really. I mean, 9% is pretty solid for the throw, but it doesn't KO, and you don't really get much off of it aside from stage control, or setting up off stage positions. Once again, not one of the worst, but a below average one.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Bowser and Wario should be S thanks to kill power, while DK's cargo throw is incredibly versatile and leads to early kills. Those three should make up S.

Beyond that, Lucas and Pit in A for slightly inferior kill power, and Mewtwo for it's high damage and positioning.

Bayo's fthrow, despite being her best killthrow, is still pretty weak, B is probably the best place for it.

 

[randomtechguy142857]

is godawful. Never kills, doesn't set up into anything, and the angle is too high to set up for an edgeguard at the edge of the stage but too low to combo properly. Its damage is on the high end of mediocre. D- or F-tier.

has situational use (especially in Monado Jump and Speed), and I believe at lower percents can set up into Back Slash for a mix-up (don't quote me on that). Other than that it's not particularly good, aside from the fact that it's the highest damaging fair in Monado Buster. D- or C- tier.

S-tier, no argument, no explanation necessary.

is quite good. Does very decent damage, combos into DA at low percents, when it starts sending foes into tumble it sets up a tech chase or (if the opponent doesn't tech) a ground lock, and its low angle makes it a very good throw for setting up edgeguards (which Pikachu excels at). At least B-tier, probably A-tier.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

F tier. Has no followups, can't kill, only use is for getting the opponent off stage, and even then it barely sends them anywhere. I've seen someone do fthrow into read opponent's double jump into Thoron, but that doesn't even always work.

Meh. It's okay. Doesn't really kill until high percents, but puts your opponent in a bad position. C or B.

S++, quite literally the most versatile throw in the game, Mashpotato Sock-her-eye pls nerf

 

[Nah]

Really you could do Fthrows in 3 tiers rather than the usual 5-6. Just like:

The Actually Good Fthrows tier: /
The Slightly Above Average Fthrows tier:
Basically Everyone Else Because Fthrows Are Fthrows tier:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[kendikong]

Aren't a lot of Fthrows that combo are there?

How bout a kill power tier list from the edge of FD? And a damage ranking as well

 

[Masonomace]

How bout a kill power tier list from the edge of FD? And a damage ranking as well

Sure? I'll be too busy over the weekend to properly lab all this like I did with Uthrow KO %s against Mario on FD in Training Mode.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Why is no one mentioning Sheik's fhtrow? One of if not the only combo fthrows. Easily A or S tier. And don't forget, Bowser's is the strongest in terms of killing.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Why is no one mentioning Sheik's fhtrow? One of if not the only combo fthrows. Easily A or S tier.

You're about one patch too late there, buddy.

Although it does have some combo use if your opponent doesn't DI it correctly. So I guess it could be A tier.

 

[Kofu]

You're about one patch too late there, buddy.

Although it does have some combo use if your opponent doesn't DI it correctly. So I guess it could be A tier.

It still combos at low percents and I don't think it can be DIed then.

Here's a rough start for KO percents. It's several patches out of date (I'm fairly certain Kirby's won't KO that low anymore) and is missing Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta, but Bayo's the only one with a real notable FThrow of them.

 

[Flamegeyser]

You're about one patch too late there, buddy.

Although it does have some combo use if your opponent doesn't DI it correctly. So I guess it could be A tier.

Fthrow bouncing fish works for a long time, regardless of DI.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

-B
It has high knock back so you can use it at the ledge to set up edge guard situations plus this is a thing

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pudS3jdDPQE

 

[MarioMeteor]

Roy's forward throw is easily A tier, due to being probably his second most reliable combo starter other than jab. It even combos until a little past 100%, and can potentially lead to a RAR back air or dash attack if your DI is bad, the latter of which is particularly devastating with Rage. May even be S tier, come to think of it.

Mario's forward throw leads into back air or down air at very low percents. Normally it'd be nothing special, but on heavyweights a forward throw to back air combo could lead to a massive amount damage, about half a stocks worth. Probably A or B tier.

Rosalina's forward throw is above average. I think forward throw to forward air is guaranteed at low percents, and it can potentially lead to Luma jank and even starts killing at the ledge at about 120-130%. B tier or better.

Jigglypuff's forward throw is her worst throw by far. It's inferior to back throw in positioning, and leads to **** all. At least up throw and down throw pop the opponent into the air. Literally this throw's only saving grace is that it does 10%, which is pretty okay damage for a throw. D tier, to be sure.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco and Fox's F-throws are basically the same. Falco trades having a lower angle -- 45 to Fox's 40 -- for 5 more growth which ironically leads to it KO'ing later than Fox's while Fox's trades 5 growth for having a lower angle. Their F-throw has not changed since Melee. It's been like this forever which is kind of weird when you consider the direction Brawl took with Falco using his arms more... 7% total damage, positioning, low-percent and no-DI set-ups to dash attack, Falco Phantasm maybe Fox Illusion, and other nonsense; and their only consistent throws outside of their D-throws; U-throw and B-throw can have the lasers miss. As the most consistent damaging throw, it's the highest for Falco over D-throw which does 5% total and for Fox, tied with D-throw which does 7% total. With their other throws, third-most damaging under B-throw (6% + 3%), U-throw (4% + 4%) for Falco and second-most for Fox under U- and B-throw (2% + 2% (x3)). Also, probably their only throw to knock Rosalina and Luma back; Falco's laser followup gets tanked by Luma and Fox's don't do knockback in the first place.

They're just there... Compared to other F-throws, they're lacking in damage, knockback, and set-ups. C-tier at most, but arguably D- to even F-tier considering other F-throws don't really do much except for positioning with the few KO and set-up F-throws. C-tier should probably be F-throws that do over 10%, D-tier under 9%, and F- around 6%. Anything above B- should be reserved for set-ups and KO throws.

 

[TDK]

I think the issue with Fthrows (And Ftilts and Fsmashes and Fairs to some degree) is that the game seems to favour vertical kill moves more often than not, especially with the legal stagelist and almost all the stages having low ceilings or platforms. As such, most forward-facing moves aren't great.

has a decent Fthrow. Fthrow to Dash attack or Fthrow to nair work at mid percent (The sweetspot hit too) and it gets your opponent offstage, though it's mostly outclassed by his other throws because it doesn't kill like up throw and down throw combos are usually more damaging and back throw has a mixup at high % (Back throw -> Up Smash catches every option except jump if you read their landing). I'd give it B since even though it's average for a throw, most forward throws are pretty poor and the fact that it has combos is in itself above average for a forward throw.

has an average fthrow. Unless you're right next to the edge of the stage there's no reason not to down or up throw and the only notable thing it gets is Forward throw -> Arrow which isn't anything to write home about. C tier, I'd say.

's fthrow is the strongest fthrow in the game, and starts killing at around 135 near the edge. I'd say B or A on that alone

Cargo throw is nuts. S tier.

 

[MarshieMan]

Diddy fthrow combos into fair and bair at low percent, and KOs at high percent with rage. Its not the best, but definitely B or A tier

DK definitely S tier though


Edit: this tier list only needs 3 or so levels, most fthrows are either useless, kinda useful for spacing etc, or DK.

 

[masato]

should definitely be in A-tier. does a considerable 10 damage, is useful for getting the opponent offstage at any percent due to the angle it sends at, and kills from the ledge at about 130/140 on average.

 

[MarshieMan]

Dk might even deserve a tier of his own

 

[Masonomace]

Well, like future posts I'll see here that may or may not have actual research behind it in terms of kill power or combo ability, I'll just go ahead & test kill percentage with Mario using optimal DI against said Fthrow. Do we wanna use FD, or should there be a different stage for testing? What do you think everyone?

 

[ARGHETH]

Well, like future posts I'll see here that may or may not have actual research behind it in terms of kill power or combo ability, I'll just go ahead & test kill percentage with Mario using optimal DI against said Fthrow. Do we wanna use FD, or should there be a different stage for testing? What do you think everyone?

Just use FD, as long as it's consistent (obviously).

 

[LRodC]

I personally don't think any character has a forward throw that's nearly as good as DK's. It's four throws in one, and one of those is an incredibly dangerous kill confirm and combo throw.

I don't usually say this for anyone, but I think DK deserves his own tier.

 

[TDK]

F-throws that kill before 180 (Tested on Mario at the right edge of the stage of FD, CPU set to stop, no Rage, no Staling). Table below is ordered by lowest to highest.

135
137 (Smash art only)
141
142
147
152 (With 152% Aura)
160 (Deep Breathing only)
172
175 (Blue, others didn't kill, also note that Olimar's grab has a deadspot directly in front of him so he can't get right up to the ledge)
176
177
180 (Red lightning showed at 179 but it didn't kill)

 

[Masonomace]

F-throws that kill before 180 (Tested on Mario at the right edge of the stage of FD, CPU set to stop, no Rage, no Staling). Table below is ordered by lowest to highest.
172

While this is cool that you have the kill percent for the CPU set to Stop, I briefly tested just Bayonetta so far by having her dash grab or standing grab when teetering (almost falling over animation at the very end of ledge) & Fthrow Mario when he uses optimal DI when launched to the right blastzone. Mario dies at 161% with or without doublejumping. Just something to note for when I do this with every notable kill throw's percentage, or maybe I'll do every Fthrow like I did with Uthrow.

 

[Kofu]

F-throws that kill before 180 (Tested on Mario at the right edge of the stage of FD, CPU set to stop, no Rage, no Staling). Table below is ordered by lowest to highest.

135
137 (Smash art only)
141
142
147
152 (With 152% Aura)
160 (Deep Breathing only)
172
175 (Blue, others didn't kill, also note that Olimar's grab has a deadspot directly in front of him so he can't get right up to the ledge)
176
177
180 (Red lightning showed at 179 but it didn't kill)

Falcon's and Luigi's didn't manage it?

And you guys are both referencing the Wii U version right?

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Gunner's forward throw is pretty good for a forward throw because it can combo into dash attack or charge blast if the opponent misses the tech. Gunner can also jab lock an opponent at low percents with a partially charged charge blast after a forward throw.

 

[Masonomace]

Kofu I'm referencing Wii U for the Bayonetta 161% kill percent on Mario. That with DJ kill % is probably slightly off though so I'll just re-test it when I actually start testing everyone's kill percent at ledge with said optimal DI.

Some results to get a taste:
| 128% without DJ | 131% with DJ
| 178% without DJ
| 229% without DJ
| 205% without DJ
| 180% without DJ
| 191% without DJ
(Smash) | 135% without DJ | 139% with DJ
| 137% without DJ
| 174% without DJ

NOTE: Angle makes a large difference here. Falco & Fox literally have a 5° angle difference & 5 values of KBG. Falco has 135 KBG, & Fox has a 40° angle. That 5° made a huge difference.