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Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

What will you like to discuss next?

  • Jabs

    Votes: 29 72.5%
  • Grabs

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Continue with Specials

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Uthrows that kill outright. Training mode, Mario on FD, set to control for no DI. Keeping it to 175% and under as "reasonable percents".
:4charizard:125
:4mewtwo:133
:4lucas:144
:4olimar:147(blue pikmin only)
:4kirby:148
:4corrinf:151
:4rob:154
:4link:164
:4marth:167
:4lucina:168 (lucina is shorter)
:4metaknight:172
:4feroy:173
:4falco:173 (but with possible variation due to victim's specific body position before the laser reaches them)

Uthrows that kill sooner with the aid of a platform above where they landed their grab. Mario on Battlefield top platform, no DI
:4charizard:105
:4kirby:124
:4metaknight:146
Slight difference with a few of these, with DI you can live 20 percent later against Zards if you DI down and to either corner. This is due to the angle it sends people at, 70 degree angle with Zard vs Mewtwo at a 90 degree angle. The difference comes with platforms which help him out a lot more with Rage.

Mewtwo with DI does not affect it much outside of 4% later at best without Rage.

Zards kills earlier due to Rage with him living forever, KBG and Platforms above him.

On stages like FD Mewtwo might be killing earlier.
 
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kendikong

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I would suggest that the grab be separate from the throw and that we should rate grab in a different round.
 

Airpoizon

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:4marth: :4feroy: :4lucina: should all be around the same spot in the same tier tbh. They all kill around the same percents. Marth at 167, Lucina at 168, and Roy at 173. Roy's kills the latest, but also does 6% instead of Marcinas 4%. So they all are about equal. I'd say B tier for all of them.
 

TheGoodGuava

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And then you realize that Marth and Lucina have a slightly better angle and higher BKB making them kill quite a bit earlier with rage that's going to stay in play a lot longer
 

kendikong

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Other than being their strongest throws at a pretty high percent, the 3 FE character's throws have abysmal damage and no followups from their Uthrows. I would put them C at best (at least for Roy).
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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:4greninja: is at least B. I'd argue for A. It kills (don't undestand why it didn't make the list above because it's about the same as Marth so around 170 at point blank,
My bad, I missed this one. It goes on the list at 164.
Zapp Branniglenn Zapp Branniglenn

Also even if they airdodge the Uair, if they airdodged the initial back hit they can get hit by the second back hit as long as Ike is able to keep the move on them.
Ike's Uair has 17 active hit frames while air dodges provide 22-26 I-frames. I could only see this happening if Ike purposely delayed the attack. That's an air dodge read, not a trap. Everything else about the throw seems reasonable.
 

Kofu

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Other than being their strongest throws at a pretty high percent, the 3 FE character's throws have abysmal damage and no followups from their Uthrows. I would put them C at best (at least for Roy).
Personally I don't think that any of the characters that kill with their UThrows before 175% should be any lower than B tier. Raw killing power from a throw is fantastic.

Several of the characters I play a lot are quite light, and it's very possible to lose a stock to Marth's UThrow at 120% given that Marth has some rage. It's obviously less of a threat if you're playing a heavier character but I fear those "weak" UThrows.
 

Y2Kay

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Honestly if Marth's up throw is B then Greninja's is A. It's a strict upgrade of his.

I'm honestly really mad that I missed the jab discussion because greninja's has no business being in C tier. It's frame 3 and has good FAF, a solid B tier move.
:150:
 

PK Gaming

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Corrin's Upthrow is an easy A considering it's a kill throw. It scales fairly heavily with rage too, so you can pretty much always count on it to close out stocks.
 
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Molk

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Just a note, G&W's Uthrow isn't only capable of comboing into Up B, it's also capable of comboing into at the very least Nair on certain characters, such as Fox for about 25% (about the same amount of damage as Uthrow--->Up B---->Fair, but from my experience the Fair is DI dependent) with a possible Up B followup for a bit of extra damage (this actually registers as true on Fox at 0%). I'm not sure where i'd place it personally, but it does have its uses as a combo starter at very low percentages, with some of the combos being more optimal than going for Dthrow at the same percentages.
 
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Flamegeyser

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S tier candidates:
Mewtwo: Strongest regular uthrow with DI
Char: Strongest uthrow without DI or with platforms
Lucas: next strongest uthrow

Bowser: True kill confirms and true high damage combos
Diddy: combos pretty much forever, 50/50's on some characters at kill%
DK: Cargo uthrow only, for obvious reasons.
 

TheHypnotoad

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Cargo throw should count as forward throw only. Otherwise we would have to rank Donkey Kong twice for every throw.
 

Masonomace

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Wait. . . wait. How can a few of these throws being ranked A or B tier be that concrete & concise?

A Uthrow by design at least to me, should either be a throw for kills off the ceiling, a throw for combos or at least good 50/50s, or a throw used by said character to punish other character's said landing options. Other things include damage output. Another thing is that throws can be weight-dependent so it matters due to if DI isn't inputted quickly enough & are combo'd or killed by said throw for not surviving or evading the followup.

Also, as a side note, Uthrows & throws in general should be taken into account for a Doubles-perspective as well. The right angles or right frame data for a said throw can be the reason why one getting juggled is dealt tons of damage or straight-up dead due to well-planned combos. This also means that if a throw has too much endlag, it leaves you more open to retaliation which isn't good at all.

And one more thing for future throw discussion & ranking, it hasn't been 100% fully tested with every throw in the game, but I'm going to presume that all throws are intangible from frame 1-18. So if your throw has hitlag & the startup is before frame 18, then that hitlag will consume up your intangibility frames & you'll be left vulnerable before they're even launched. This can matter. Oh & some weight-dependent throws do or do not have hitlag so that's a thing too.
Honestly if Marth's up throw is B then Greninja's is A. It's a strict upgrade of his.
Coming from me, I definitely don't think Marth's Uthrow is B tier-worthy, but since it is a kill throw I can ultimately be okay with it being B-rank. Both throws are weight-dependent & are quite similar in motion. My quick labbing for frame data comparison below ↓ & I checked Zapp & mates' 1.16 frame data for reference:
Greninja's Uthrow is frame 18 startup on Bowser.
Marth's Uthrow is frame 16 on Bowser.

Greninja's Uthrow is frame 14 startup on Puff.
Marth's Uthrow is frame 11 startup on Puff.

At 0%, Greninja acts on frame 50 when Uthrowing Bowser whereas he acts on frame 52.
At 50%, Bowser acts on frame 62.
-
At 0%, Marth acts on frame 53 when Uthrowing Bowser whereas he acts on frame 54.
At 50%, Bowser acts on frame 63.

At 0%, Greninja acts on frame 38 when Uthrowing Puff whereas she acts on frame 49.
At 50%, Puff acts on frame 63.
-
At 0%, Marth acts on frame 37 when Uthrowing Puff whereas she acts on frame 49.
At 50%, Puff acts on frame 61.
That was just an example, but they trade off. Greninja would have solid kill power alongside Marth, if Greninja didn't use his so often. Not only does he have that as a late kill throw option, it also can combo and or be a 50/50. Greninja using it so much means it loses kill power to rival Marth's whereas Marth will rarely use his Uthrow unless he really wants to Uthrow > Dolphin Slash Puff at low percents, lol. After the math & matches, Marth can have a lesser rank than Greninja simply because Greninja Uthrow has more usage & applications, but we shouldn't compare kill percents to throws that perform differently between another due to that amount of usage. Plus, Marth having more BKB & Rage being a factor makes it a more solid kill throw anyway.
Corrin's Upthrow is an easy A considering it's an up throw. It scales fairly heavily with rage too, so you can pretty much always count on it to close out stocks.
A throw dealing 9.5% in total & can kill Mario with optimal DI at 156% in Training Mode isn't bad at all, actually that's quite good. Although, it's a throw with 37 frames of lag after it's second hit which is having you act on frame 52 universally. The first hit is frame 12 but it also has 11 frames of hitlag so even if the second hit is frame 14, it's actually frame 24 if you account for the freeze-frames too. This means that you lose all your intangibility frames before the second hit launches. On top of this, the combo ability is low (I'm not a Corrin main, but if the Uthrow has solid combos I'm definitely down for getting proven wrong.) but shines with its strong suit being kill power. But even with that strong suit, I can't get behind a throw being A tier just because it has fairly good kill potential.
 
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HoSmash4

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PSA with throws please consider their usage in doubles as well (although less important) e.g Mario backthrow having big hitboxes
 

PK Gaming

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A throw dealing 9.5% in total & can kill Mario with optimal DI at 156% in Training Mode isn't bad at all, actually that's quite good. Although, it's a throw with 37 frames of lag after it's second hit which is having you act on frame 52 universally. The first hit is frame 12 but it also has 11 frames of hitlag so even if the second hit is frame 14, it's actually frame 24 if you account for the freeze-frames too. This means that you lose all your intangibility frames before the second hit launches. On top of this, the combo ability is low (I'm not a Corrin main, but if the Uthrow has solid combos I'm definitely down for getting proven wrong.) but shines with its strong suit being kill power. But even with that strong suit, I can't get behind a throw being A tier just because it has fairly good kill potential.
What makes the throw shine is how well it scales with rage. (Anecdotal) At around 100%~ you start killing characters like Mario at around 135-140% which is pretty amazing on a character who deals as much damage as Corrin. Tbh, i'm not too concerned with where it's placed, as long as its in the same tier as Lucas's up throw, considering it's literally only a few points weaker than it (and I believe it scales even better with rage?)

It has 0 combo ability, though.
 
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Masonomace

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What makes the throw shine is how well it scales with rage. (Anecdotal) At around 100%~ you start killing characters like Mario at around 135-140% which is pretty amazing on a character who deals as much damage as Corrin. Tbh, i'm not too concerned with where it's placed, as long as its in the same tier as Lucas's up throw, considering it's literally only a few points weaker than it (and I believe it scales even better with rage?)

It has 0 combo ability, though.
I can dig that. I did Rage testing with the center-stage scenario on FD. Corrin at 100% & Mario at ~133% & it killed. Didn't kill at ~132% so meh close enough 133%. That's a good difference between 156% optimal DI in Training Mode & 100% Corrin killing with Uthrow on Mario at ~133%. 100% R.O.B. started killing Mario with his Uthrow around ~137%. Not ~136% though.

Lucas at 100% kills Mario at around ~121% with optimal DI so. . .I don't think I can agree with Lucas & Corrin being in the same tier in terms of kill power scaling with or without rage effect.
Uthrows that kill outright. Training mode, Mario on FD, set to control for no DI. Keeping it to 175% and under as "reasonable percents".
:4charizard:125 → 157% with optimal :GCDR: DI from center stage
:4mewtwo:133 → 135% with optimal :GCL:/:GCR: DI from center stage
:4lucas:144 → 148% with optimal :GCL:/:GCR: DI from center stage
:4olimar:147(blue pikmin only) → 154%(blue pikmin only) with optimal :GCR: DI from center stage
:4kirby:148 → 158% with optimal :GCDR: OR :GCR: DI from center stage
:4corrinf:151 → 156% with optimal :GCR: DI from center stage
:4rob:154 → 162% with optimal :GCR: DI from center stage
:4link:164 → 166% with optimal :GCL:/:GCR: DI from center stage
:4greninja:164 → 169% with optimal :GCL: DI from center stage
:4marth:167 → 172% with optimal :GCL: DI from center stage
:4lucina:168 (lucina is shorter) → 174% with optimal :GCL: DI from center stage (wtf lol)
:4metaknight:172 → 183% with optimal :GCR: OR :GCDR: DI from center stage
:4feroy:173 → 181% with optimal :GCL: from center stage
:4falco:173 (but with possible variation due to victim's specific body position before the laser reaches them) → 174% IF you let the laser hit you with optimal :GCL:/:GCR: DI from center stage. Otherwise, you can avoid the bullet & eventually die at 250% with optimal :GCL: DI from center stage. RIP. . .

Uthrows that kill sooner with the aid of a platform above where they landed their grab. Mario on Battlefield top platform, no DI
:4charizard:105 → 134% with optimal :GCDR: DI from center platform stage
:4kirby:124 → 132% with optimal :GCDR: OR :GCR: DI from center platform stage
:4metaknight:146 → 157% with optimal :GCR: DI from center platform stage

Edit: Missed Greninja
I know you mentioned about wanting to have reasonable percentages, but did this testing for assistance with another perspective to the "what if they DI'd optimally" kinda thing. Thrower was spawned at center stage by dropping from revival platform. Was always facing towards the right. Victim thrown used said directional influence for optimal DI in my testing. Had to use B-sticking for my :GCCN: so that Olimar doesn't move airborne when throwing pikmin from center stage just because I was curious about purple pikmin, lol. For Battlefield testing, had thrower fall-through top platform & land in center stage to Uthrow on top platform for testing. My text in this color.

My verdict: Up throws with 90° & can kill are damndify good.
 
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TriTails

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Luigi's U-throw is decent.

At low percent, you can FH triple F-airs right off the bat against floaties. With fast-fallers, it's basically pre-patch D-throw at said percents as you can SH double F-air into a grab mixup. They can also be hit with U-air, but it's not safe on hit at low percents and is best used when people don't know how/when to double jump away.

For a wide range of percents, this move is usually outclaseed by D-throw, until like 170% where it can kill with rage, and is often a '**** you this is my last resort'-ish type of move since B-throw kills much earlier given good sage positioning and does more damage.

But the move doesn't shine anywhere else. Given Luigi's U-smash and Cyclone, this is useful to set up for a juggling situation, so that's that I suppose. Probably C. But since I'm not familiar with U-throws in general I'll have to see how this list turns out.
 

Funbot28

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Ok preliminary list for Up-Throw coming through:


Edit: Running into some technical difficulties, if u can't see image don't worry will try to fix this
Go crazy!
 
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LancerStaff

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Yeah, Pit's really should be in B. It's better then almost every throw in C in basically every way. Some have some niche uses over Pit's but that's about it.
 

Bigbomb2

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:4link:'s upthrow is similar to Marcina and Roy's in how it kills. Pretty much exactly actually. Should be up there with them
:4bayonetta: Doesn't her upthrow combo into upB? I feel like this should go up unless I'm missing something
 

Kofu

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Ok preliminary list for Up-Throw coming through:


Edit: Running into some technical difficulties, if u can't see image don't worry will try to fix this
Go crazy!
DK should go down since it's his Cargo UThrow (so technically FThrow) that he combos off of. Not a bad throw overall though.

Bayonetta and Link should go up. Probably Toon Link, Game & Watch, Luigi, Sheik, and Fox too.

Doc's and Mario's should go up, Doc probably to B. It's a pretty good combo throw.

Little Mac doesn't need his own tier.
 

Lorde

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iirc nothing true combos out of Bayo's uthrow if you just DI out. Her uthrow is good if your opponent is braindead, though
 

kendikong

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The Mario's have some combo potential from uthrow I believe.

Link should be higher due to it's KO potential

DK's is not his cargo throw so it should be C or B

Wario could go up from D just for its 11% damage.
 
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Ffamran

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Any reason why Doc and Mario, especially Mario's, U-throw are in D-tier? They don't get guaranteed setups from them as far as I know, but they do get setups like many other characters who have U-throw setups such as Falco, Fox, and speaking of which... Samus, her U-throw is a set-up throw: https://smashboards.com/threads/using-upthrow-instead-of-dthrow-for-combos.429508/.

On Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Villager and ZSS, I don't know if they get anything out of U-throw, but they do 10% which is still good damage and like all throws, can give a positional advantage -- part of me wished ZSS's U-throw was her set-up throw since it would be cool for a flip kick to set up flip kicks. For Jigglypuff in particular, I think all of her throws should be at least C-tier purely because of they do 10%. Compared to Lucina, Marth, and Roy, she doesn't have a U-throw kill or Roy's D-throw set-ups, but in terms of damage, she trumps them. Lucina, Marth, and Roy's other throws don't do much outside of positioning like everyone else, but they're doing half of what Jiggles does.

Okay, for everyone in D-tier plus Little Mac, in terms of damage, it's Wario at 11%, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Villager, and ZSS first at 10%; Robin, Samus, and Triple D at 9%; Mii Brawler at 8%, Dr. Mario at 7.84%, Bowser Jr., Little Mac, Mario, and (vanilla) Shulk at 7%; Duck Hunt at 6%, and Mii Swordfighter and Yoshi at 5%. Here is the thing, yes, set-up and kill throws are nice, but at the same time, positional is also nice which is what every throw is capable of. Now, it's already been covered that Dr. Mario, Mario, and Samus have can use their to set-up, not guaranteed setups perhaps, but set-ups nevertheless, so they should really just be in C- or higher depending on what they can do. Everyone else? Looking at it, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Villager, Wario, and ZSS do the most damage. They might not get anything from their U-throws, but a free 10% -- 11% for Wario -- and putting your opponent somewhere in the sky forcing them to figure out where to land? Hell yeah. C-tier. 1% less, but Robin and Triple D should be up there too plus Mii Brawler. Maybe the 7% U-throws too including Little Mac who still can at least anti-air and land trap you with Utilt, Up Smash, angled up Side Smash, and Rising Uppercut. Oh, and Shulk can at least use Buster Art to increase the damage and Smash Art to increase its knockback. That leaves the 6% and under... Yeah... They don't KO like Lucina and Marth's 5% U-throws or Roy's 6% U-throw which could have made up for the low damage compared to the others. Yeah...

On the flipside, I'm curious as to why Cloud's U-throw is in B-tier. It does 8.5% total -- Cloud's most damaging throw --, but that's pretty much it. It's a positional throw. Likewise, Captain Falcon doesn't get much from U-throw, except for setting up Uair at low percents, as far as I know. Just does 7% which if we went with the whole, high damage throws should at least be C-tier, he's barely edging it in like Bowser Jr., Little Mac, and Shulk. There's Palutena too who uses D-throw more for set-ups and I don't think her U-throw is a kill throw with that knockback. Questions: do Mega Man and PAC-MAN get much out of U-throw? I can see item set-ups and Mega Man using Uair after it, but that's it to my knowledge.

I think for the purposes of this ranking and for U-throw since different throws have different damage ranges, if the U-throw doesn't kill or set-up, but it does at least 8%, it should be C-tier. That's decent damage and at least positioning. D-tier 7% to 6% and F-tier is 5% and below. Now, if it does KO, then yes, it should be at least C-tier depending on KO percent and perhaps the damage like Lucina, Marth, and Roy's U-throws don't do a lot of damage, but are kill throws nevertheless compared to Mewtwo's high damage and relatively low kill percent which would definitely put it above C-tier which it is at S-tier. Same with set-up U-throws since there are some situational or shaky ones like Fox can use U-throw to set up Uair, but it's not going to be as reliable or "true" unlike Diddy and Ike's U-throw set-ups. So, something like Fox's e.g. Mario and Samus's would be C-tier while something like Diddy and Ike's e.g. Greninja's are higher. Kill set-up U-throws no matter how strict or situational could probably be treated the same like Zelda's is strict, but it's still a kill set-up and her U-throw alone does 11%, so that would have already placed it at C-tier. For throws that do both like Falco and Greninja's, C-tier at the least. Maybe B-tier since they would be the most versatile throws -- throws that function as both kills and set-ups.

Also, fun fact: Fox's U-throw is the lowest damaging set-up throw in the game. If none of the lasers hit, then it only does 2%, but that means nothing when his Uair does 16%. Next to Fox is Falco's where if the laser doesn't hit, then it's a 4% set-up throw. Followed by Falco would be Diddy's 5% U-throw. Huh... Zelda's would be the highest damaging then... 11% from the throw and 17% from her Uair.
 
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adom4

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Any reason why Doc and Mario, especially Mario's, U-throw are in D-tier? They don't get guaranteed setups from them as far as I know, but they do get setups like many other characters who have U-throw setups such as Falco, Fox, and speaking of which... Samus, her U-throw is a set-up throw: https://smashboards.com/threads/using-upthrow-instead-of-dthrow-for-combos.429508/.

On Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Villager and ZSS, I don't know if they get anything out of U-throw, but they do 10% which is still good damage and like all throws, can give a positional advantage -- part of me wished ZSS's U-throw was her set-up throw since it would be cool for a flip kick to set up flip kicks. For Jigglypuff in particular, I think all of her throws should be at least C-tier purely because of they do 10%. Compared to Lucina, Marth, and Roy, she doesn't have a U-throw kill or Roy's D-throw set-ups, but in terms of damage, she trumps them. Lucina, Marth, and Roy's other throws don't do much outside of positioning like everyone else, but they're doing half of what Jiggles does.

Okay, for everyone in D-tier plus Little Mac, in terms of damage, it's Wario at 11%, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Villager, and ZSS first at 10%; Robin, Samus, and Triple D at 9%; Mii Brawler at 8%, Dr. Mario at 7.84%, Bowser Jr., Little Mac, Mario, and (vanilla) Shulk at 7%; Duck Hunt at 6%, and Mii Swordfighter and Yoshi at 5%. Here is the thing, yes, set-up and kill throws are nice, but at the same time, positional is also nice which is what every throw is capable of. Now, it's already been covered that Dr. Mario, Mario, and Samus have can use their to set-up, not guaranteed setups perhaps, but set-ups nevertheless, so they should really just be in C- or higher depending on what they can do. Everyone else? Looking at it, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Villager, Wario, and ZSS do the most damage. They might not get anything from their U-throws, but a free 10% -- 11% for Wario -- and putting your opponent somewhere in the sky forcing them to figure out where to land? Hell yeah. C-tier. 1% less, but Robin and Triple D should be up there too plus Mii Brawler. Maybe the 7% U-throws too including Little Mac who still can at least anti-air and land trap you with Utilt, Up Smash, angled up Side Smash, and Rising Uppercut. Oh, and Shulk can at least use Buster Art to increase the damage and Smash Art to increase its knockback. That leaves the 6% and under... Yeah... They don't KO like Lucina and Marth's 5% U-throws or Roy's 6% U-throw which could have made up for the low damage compared to the others. Yeah...

On the flipside, I'm curious as to why Cloud's U-throw is in B-tier. It does 8.5% total -- Cloud's most damaging throw --, but that's pretty much it. It's a positional throw. Likewise, Captain Falcon doesn't get much from U-throw, except for setting up Uair at low percents, as far as I know. Just does 7% which if we went with the whole, high damage throws should at least be C-tier, he's barely edging it in like Bowser Jr., Little Mac, and Shulk. There's Palutena too who uses D-throw more for set-ups and I don't think her U-throw is a kill throw with that knockback. Questions: do Mega Man and PAC-MAN get much out of U-throw? I can see item set-ups and Mega Man using Uair after it, but that's it to my knowledge.

I think for the purposes of this ranking and for U-throw since different throws have different damage ranges, if the U-throw doesn't kill or set-up, but it does at least 8%, it should be C-tier. That's decent damage and at least positioning. D-tier 7% to 6% and F-tier is 5% and below. Now, if it does KO, then yes, it should be at least C-tier depending on KO percent and perhaps the damage like Lucina, Marth, and Roy's U-throws don't do a lot of damage, but are kill throws nevertheless compared to Mewtwo's high damage and relatively low kill percent which would definitely put it above C-tier which it is at S-tier. Same with set-up U-throws since there are some situational or shaky ones like Fox can use U-throw to set up Uair, but it's not going to be as reliable or "true" unlike Diddy and Ike's U-throw set-ups. So, something like Fox's e.g. Mario and Samus's would be C-tier while something like Diddy and Ike's e.g. Greninja's are higher. Kill set-up U-throws no matter how strict or situational could probably be treated the same like Zelda's is strict, but it's still a kill set-up and her U-throw alone does 11%, so that would have already placed it at C-tier. For throws that do both like Falco and Greninja's, C-tier at the least. Maybe B-tier since they would be the most versatile throws -- throws that function as both kills and set-ups.

Also, fun fact: Fox's U-throw is the lowest damaging set-up throw in the game. If none of the lasers hit, then it only does 2%, but that means nothing when his Uair does 16%. Next to Fox is Falco's where if the laser doesn't hit, then it's a 4% set-up throw. Followed by Falco would be Diddy's 5% U-throw. Huh... Zelda's would be the highest damaging then... 11% from the throw and 17% from her Uair.
Ganon's U-throw only has a niche against a few characters (against Ganon and Bowser mostly since D-throw isn't too good vs them & they can't land), F-throw does 4% more and is generally much more useful for damage.
 

meticulousboy

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I think Lucario's Uthrow would be A tier. I didn't check the preliminary list because it may crash the page. But back to Lucario, his Uthrow has seen to be more a better combo starter than his Dthrow. After Uthrow, he can get two Fairs into a Uair at low aura, or a Nair.

His Uthrow also is not dependent on weight, unlike his other three. So this gives the opponent less to time to plan DI.
 

Galaxeon

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For :4greninja:: staling doesn't really matter in a real match, you know you're not going to kill until, let's say 150 with a bit of rage. You know it stops comboing usually before 100. Why would you use it then ? You have plenty of time to fill in 9 other moves to unstale the throw. In fact you can't kill with it even when fresh if the opponent isn't usually around 50% above the threshold for the combos, and you're not going to do these 50% by doing only Uthrows with no reason so... yeah basically when you need to combo it can combo, when you need to kill it can kill. That's it. So yeah definetly A tier.

Also I know I said :4bayonetta2:'s was in C, but looking at the Uthrows in C this feels weird. But, at the same time it's not a combo throw that great and seeing it in the same tier as Rosalina would be just as weird to me so I don't know. C tier isn't THAT weird.

Also yes you should always DI away her up throw but the Bayo player just need to move forward a bit. She really can act almost immediately after her uthrow, so that's good. UpB, Uair or Fair feels pretty easy to connect at low percents. After that if they airdodge well Bayo has a pretty dumb way to frametrap so you just need to keep pressing the button and the Uair will hit anyway. If they jump, fair and UpB obviouslycatch them. And I'm also pretty sure fastfallers and big targets just can't do anything to avoid a follow-up at low percents. So it's not Diddy's or ZSS's throws "level of guaranteed" sure but it's still pretty decent and not just a mix up.

I agree :4link:in C doesn't feel right. I though we were only including throws, not the grab. I've almost never played as Link though but just by looking at the data... feels at least B.

I also agree :4pikachu:'s overrated here. Not A. All of Pika's throws are good but none stand out as awesome.

In the case of :4zss:, sure 10% is really cool. And I know we shouldn't take into consideration the other moves of a character... but really, this should have at least some meaning, because this throw is NEVER used. It's not a good position throw, Fthrow and Bthrow are way better, and have at least a little bit of combo mix-up potential if the opponent mess up their DI or can set up an edgeguard. Uthrow is pointless. Sure it's not the worst in the game by any mean and may be the best of D tier I don't know but it can't be higher than D tier if it's not usable by the character that posseses that throw, right ?
 

MarshieMan

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I think Lucario's Uthrow would be A tier. I didn't check the preliminary list because it may crash the page. But back to Lucario, his Uthrow has seen to be more a better combo starter than his Dthrow. After Uthrow, he can get two Fairs into a Uair at low aura, or a Nair.

His Uthrow also is not dependent on weight, unlike his other three. So this gives the opponent less to time to plan DI.
Lucarios up throw into double fair into u-air is heavily DI dependent. Plus it requires no rage/aura, meaning you'll probably only get 10-15% damage off of it.

Mid% he has up throw into double U-air which is more consistent and actually has good damage.

Also keep in mind we're not rating throws based off of their character specific combos/follow ups, but rather how much downtime, BKB, and KBG the throw has (which basically determines how good that throw is for combos).
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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Thank you Masonomace Masonomace for putting in the leg work for the DI values.

I don't see a reason for :4littlemac:in his own tier. There's nothing wrong with it. And I can tell by Pac Man's placement that we're not factoring grabs into the equation.

I also disagree with :4diddy: in S. It's not even his best throw and the followups come nowhere close to Bowser in terms of damage. Nor could it ever secure a guaranteed kill. I'm also still of the opinion that Bowser deserves his own tier. Because Charizard only has combos to match at specific %s and Matchups, and Mewtwo's kills at 133-5 are less impressive than Bowser's guaranteed kills long before 100%. Like I said, nobody combines damage, kill potential, and mixups into one package like Bowser. But there inclusion in S isn't nearly as wrong as Diddy's, so I'd settle for him moving out.

Also :4link: is worth at least B. He kills sooner than Marth/Lucina/Roy, and the angle is cleanly vertical so DI has the least effect. Plus it's not weight based, so you can get an Utilt at 0% against heavyweights, whom Link cannot combo normally with Dthrow. There's also nothing special about :4palutena::4cloud::4megaman:and:4falcon: to warrant B.

:4mario::4drmario:also deserve a move up to C. Because unlike the majority of Uthrows, it does have combo potential. Compared to Mario's Dthrow, it's pretty poor, because it quickly begins throwing them too high to reach in time. And is also weight based like Dthrow, so heavyweights are never at the mercy of any followups.

There really needs to be a definition between C and D tier. I get that positional advantage is important for some characters more than others, but even a little (true) combo potential should warrant C tier, while everything that doesn't shouldn't be any higher and is debatably D. With this line of logic, Pit, Pac Man, Peach, Ness, Toon Link, Bayonetta, Mii Gunner, and Ryu would move down. Zelda and WFT debatably as well because their combos are at tight percentages in three or four matchups exclusively. Samus is in the same position as them. And the D tiers moving up would be Mario and Dr. Mario. Only after setting terms could you make arguments for individual throws. Like the aforementioned Zelda, WFT, and Samus in some matchups, or how Toon Link's Uthrow comes really close to landing Bair and Uair at a variety of ranges that force the victim to react. And how his Uair traps air dodging victims due to its active frames. Or positional advantage, which is an abstract concept you couldn't evaluate without a defined scenario.


Questions: do Mega Man and PAC-MAN get much out of U-throw? I can see item set-ups and Mega Man using Uair after it, but that's it to my knowledge.
Nothing guaranteed from either of them. Mega Man's Uthrow has longer endlag than Dthrow and launches them further. And not even his Dthrow has potential for a guaranteed Uair. Pac Man almost has a 50/50 on Uthrow to Uair at low percent against specifically Sheik, maybe Fox or Mewtwo, but all can air dodge or jump out. The first two might even be able to nair. He's better off with Dthrow for the 10.5% damage and tech chase scenario. He's also got one of the viable Bthrows for killing, I believe.
 

Flamegeyser

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Bayo's uthrow is fine where it is, it doesn't true combo into anything except uair at very specific %s with specific DI. It's nice for positioning, and technically combos into WTw at like 0% thanks to beating out the little bit of airdodge startup on most chars, but not really much else.
 

kendikong

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The thing with a combo kill throw like Bowser or any other grab kill confirm is that it stops being a kill confirm after a certain amount of percent on the target and/or a certain amount of rage on Bowser. So you can't always have control over that and you can often miss your window to get that kill confirm.

That being said, I do think Bowser probably has the best Uthrow. But does it warrant being a whole tier ahead of the 2nd best, I'm not sure. I don't think Mewtwo or Zard's Uthrows fit in A tier though.


Also, It seems me that we are factoring in positional advantage in this throw tier list. That could explain why Cloud is in B tier, and Little Mac is in F tier. Although I still don't think Little Mac should have his own tier. It's not like Little Mac can't just cover landing options from the ground instead of going for aerial followups. And it's not like he has the worst throw.
 
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MarshieMan

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Sonics up throw is NOT a-tier, the only reason it has follow ups past 30% is because of his spring jump.

If any other character had his up throw, it would basically be useless
 

zblaqk

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Samus' up throw could go up. Zero-death throw on many common tournament viable threats? Yes please.
 

LRodC

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Sonics up throw is NOT a-tier, the only reason it has follow ups past 30% is because of his spring jump.

If any other character had his up throw, it would basically be useless
That's terrible logic for an up throw being bad.

Sonic himself has follow ups from the throw, and he can abuse it. It's how it was designed. It's like saying Sheik's forward throw would be terrible on anyone else because other characters can't bouncing fish or forward air fast enough afterwards. It's poor logic.
 
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Masonomace

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I guess there hasn't been a specific set of requirements as to how a move is rated huh? Then again as we read more posts here, some users have put out a neat breakdown of ratings & how to grade them.

:4lucario: has me questioning whether it could stay B solidly or go ↑ a rank in A tier. Uthrow > Nair linger hit meaning Nair hitting twice is a thing as well as Uthrow > Fair or Uair. I've wondered if Lucario really had any ranges to Uthrow > Uair kill confirm fast-fallers with medium or high Aura + staling Uthrow. Still, Aura makes Uthrow's damage scaling insane! 7% at 0% is decent but then you deal 11% at 70% which is Aura's base power. At 102%, you deal 13% & Lucario at 148% deals 16%!. Uthrow to Lucario is actually his highest Aura scaling throw too. A 50/50 Bair off airdodge read is also brutal, so even after all this I feel it's between B & A tier.

:4shulk: after a bit of discussion & reviewing, I feel that Vanilla Shulk warrants C tier. If I wanted to talk about Jump Speed or Buster, then Speed & Buster could warrant B tier for specific reasons except Jump art warranting A tier since Jump art gets true combo ability with Air Slash as well as 50/50 deadly setups with Purge, Speed art wrecks landing options more frequently, & Buster art dealing 9.8% & forcing an immediate doublejump used to evade that damn Utilt & avoid big damage juggling. However, arts aren't needed to be added because Vanilla Shulk can already Uthrow > Air Slash true combo a good amount of the cast, can catch landings on characters with average landing mixup ability or average mobility, or can force an immediate doublejump to evade Utilt from below. It's just that arts individually improve other fields of Uthrow.

:4robinm::4falcon::4jigglypuff::4ness::4palutena::4samus: & :4villager: all neat Uthrows in Doubles. Good damage and or good - high BKB makes them deadly throw setups into some real cheese if ya get what I mean.

:4yoshi: belongs in D tier. Maybe even F tier dunno full-well about it but I'm always going to use a different throw or just Egg Lay over it.
There's also nothing special about :4palutena::4cloud::4megaman:and:4falcon: to warrant B.
:4megaman: & :4cloud: definitely don't seem special enough to be B tier to me either. Although, Cloud dealing 8.5% sure isn't bad but it's got nothing else that stands out enough for it to be B-tier worthy so it's a pretty average-decent throw. :4falcon: & :4palutena: however like I mentioned earlier are delicious setup-throws in Doubles format for their almost-straight ↑ vertical knockback angle & decent damage on top of high early percent knockback for deadly strings capable of KO'ing earlier than ~70%. That's about all the praise I'll give 'em though.


----
Maybe someday when we're all not busy we can record optimal kill percents for every kill or "kill" throw to separate the great from the decent & the bad. More goes into throw rating other than kill power of course, but would be neat for community gathering.
 
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Poisonous

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Wario's upthrow is alright for a throw that doesn't have direct followups or kill (Except at 0-10% vs fast fallers where you can usually get an upair as a true combo or at least frame trap them). It does a decent amount of damage, sets up for tech situations on BF/DL/TnC at low %s into Uair strings, and puts you above Wario which is a pretty bad spot to be in.
 

Y2Kay

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:4lucario:'s up throw is similar to :4greninja:'s as it does double duty as a combo throw and a kill throw.

Lucario's Up throw -> reverse hit fair -> bair kills :4falcon: at like . . 35% with enough aura. Bonkers!

:150:
 
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MarshieMan

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That's terrible logic for an up throw being bad.

Sonic himself has follow ups from the throw, and he can abuse it. It's how it was designed. It's like saying Sheik's forward throw would be terrible on anyone else because other characters can't bouncing fish or forward air fast enough afterwards. It's poor logic.
Its not terrible logic, it just makes sense. We shouldnt rank throws based off their follow ups. However, sheiks Fthrow has more follow ups than just bouncing fish, regardless of who could use it. And overall it isnt even that great. Also very few characters have combo Fthrows. So that's a pretty bad example.

We should rank throws based off of their stats alone, low BKB and KBK is good because that determines the percent range of follow ups, as well as DI range on combo throws. The fact is we are ranking throws, not combos off of throws.

The reason your logic is so wrong is because it would immediately make characters with the best Uthrow kill confirms A tier, and the best kill throws would have to be B tier at best.
for example, bowser's Uthrow->Uair will kill at 70-80%, while the strongest kill throw (charizards with wrong di) wont work till 125% at earliest. Therefore its significantly better by your logic.

Kill throws can be ranked solely on their kill power, which we have already determined. Combo throws, however, should be ranked by BKB, KBK, and their DI windows.

By my logic, sonic's up throw should not be considered good for comboing past 40% or so(when Uthrow->nair is no longer confirmed)

If you really have a problem with my logic then try to do a better job refuting it.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Its not terrible logic, it just makes sense. We shouldnt rank throws based off their follow ups.

By my logic, sonic's up throw should not be considered good for comboing past 40% or so(when Uthrow->nair is no longer confirmed)
But of course you'd rank moves based on followups, especially throws. With normal attacks, there are numerous factors like proximity to target, late hit frames, safety on shield, range, move priority, kill potential, and finally followups that spell out why a move is worth using at all over something else. With throws, you skip straight to kill potential and followups because you can't perform a throw in any specific way other than how it's programmed. And Sonic's spring is just another tool in his moveset. Why should he not use it?

You can't divorce a move from its owner, because then there's no context to judge it with. It's willful ignorance.
 
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