Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[MarshieMan]

Maybe what I want to see them is Lucas/Samus/Mario/ROB/Luigi being one tier above Zelda because I agree those are all great,

But Robin and ZSS are not a step above Zelda's, or on par with the former several. Maybe it would seem picky, but maybe there should be two "S-like" tiers with the former and any broke ones I missed in the first (aka SS) and Robin/Zelda/ZSS/etcIMayHaveMissed in the second (aka S)

Tbh I think there's a mixup for the scope of comparison. Robin and ZSS are the ones Zelda matches, and the ones I'm arguing about, but the others are just a whole new level.

Ive thought about it and yeah, Robin's isnt really much better than zeldas. That's the harder argument to make. I do think ZSS's is good enough to be S though.

Robin's is F10 though, and the strong hit's only 4 frames. Zelda's being F14 and 3 active frames isn't good, but it isn't terrible either.

Ah my bad, you're right. With the weak hitbox, Robins total Uair duration is 13 frames though.
However, i just noticed that Robins Uair has much better knockback (both BKB and KBG) than zelda's.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Let's not forget that damage matters in knockback calculations. Just to pull a quick example...Bowser's Fsmash and Falcon's Bair have similar knockback stats (25 and 98 vs 25 and 100), but Bowser's would kill about 50% sooner. The reason being that Bowser's move deals 24% damage instead of 13. So if you look at high damage attacks, you'll see knockback stats - usually growth reduced from the typical 100 as an intentional nerf to its kill potential. So the trend continues with Zelda's Uair which has damage and knockback stats most closely in line with Usmashes.

Also, I second Robin not being top because, like Falcon, he only gets the nasty stuff on certain matchups because of weight dependency. Though I will say it's not as susceptible to DI as Falcon's and doesn't require momentum. It has new issues like being unsafe at low %. And I'm not clear on the status of heavyweights, but I know Bowser at least is immune to Uair as a followup, probably the other heavyweights as well with air dodge hitstun cancelling. This thread provides some data, for jab and Utilt ranges, but not Uair. I'm curious on just who it's guaranteed on and when. One other thread tackles the topic of Uair, but seems most concerned with when it starts killing, not whether it can reliably connect against human opponents.

 

[Vyrnx]

Falcon's dthrow is still amazing. He has some of the highest damaging throw combos in the game and dthrow true combos into knee on multiple characters. Dash grab to throw combos for days and standing grab to throw still obviously combos for a long time. You can't DI out of an uthrow followup for a long time because of Falcon's speed, and the only big advantage heavyweights have as far as Falcon's dthrow is that no/bad DI doesn't guarantee dthrow knee like it does on other characters, although the superheavies like Bowser/DK can get out earlier. It's great against most high/top tiers. It's definitely A tier, which is also proven by watching top Falcon players.

I also still see Zss as S tier. The ladder combo is way too important and a grab on a platform guaranteeing death at mid percents is way too good, plus the fact it combos to high percents and 50/50s to very high percents.

 

[meticulousboy]

So...should we focus on a character's Dthrow as if it were fresh, or should we take into account staling?

 

[Nah]

Also, I second Robin not being top because, like Falcon, he only gets the nasty stuff on certain matchups because of weight dependency. Though I will say it's not as susceptible to DI as Falcon's and doesn't require momentum. It has new issues like being unsafe at low %. And I'm not clear on the status of heavyweights, but I know Bowser at least is immune to Uair as a followup, probably the other heavyweights as well with air dodge hitstun cancelling. This thread provides some data, for jab and Utilt ranges, but not Uair. I'm curious on just who it's guaranteed on and when. One other thread tackles the topic of Uair, but seems most concerned with when it starts killing, not whether it can reliably connect against human opponents.

Typically when it kills is also the only time it can true combo as far as I know. You can connect an Uair outside of the percent ranges it can kill, but usually it's because your opponent was slow to react and escape, or you baited an airdodge or something. I don't think any character is outright immune to Checkmate, but weight makes the execution window tighter. The nasty stuff is just lightweight fastfallers being lightweight fastfallers, everyone violates them with (throw) combos.

But this is also just my experience with it, and I may be wrong in some way; we unfortunately lack an in-depth thread on Robin's Dthrow and follow-ups on the level of BJN39's Zelda Dthrow/Finger Bang thread, and as much as I'd like to test things myself or just be of any use to the Robin meta, I can't.

I'm not really fussed on whether we rank Robin's Dthrow as A or S, just so long as we all agree it's a good Dthrow.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

and the only big advantage heavyweights have as far as Falcon's dthrow is that no/bad DI doesn't guarantee dthrow knee like it does on other characters.

There's much more to it than that. I'm fairly certain that Falcon has absolutely nothing, not even a single Uair on the heaviest target, Bowser if he's appropriately using DI away and escape options should Falcon approach for a followup. I'm just not sure how much I stress tested the theory. Even with the most optimally executed dthrow and slide, you can't guarantee a knee on anything as heavy as Mario. And even that's an optimistic claim, as my crude testing can't accurately factor the extra distance Falcon must run when they DI away, or for air dodging out of hitstun which training mode does not account for. Correct DI matters for everybody, not just the heavyweights. That distance you must run to catch up to the opponent eats into Falcon's five or so frames of leniency before he inputs jump and Fair during jumpsquat. Even with frame perfection, I hesitate to name even a single character that is truly susceptible to it until I see hard evidence with a real testing method. If Sheik and ZSS were, I'd imagine it's even more difficult than Zelda's Dthrow to Uair to execute with frame perfection. She doesn't have to dash, or time a jump, after all.

Still, what you can expect out of Falcon's throw is Uairs - sometimes even two of them. Quicker startup on Uair means much more generous time frame to reach the target, sliding momentum not typically necessary unless it's a heavyweight target.

Typically when it kills is also the only time it can true combo as far as I know. You can connect an Uair outside of the percent ranges it can kill, but usually it's because your opponent was slow to react and escape, or you baited an airdodge or something. I don't think any character is outright immune to Checkmate, but weight makes the execution window tighter. The nasty stuff is just lightweight fastfallers being lightweight fastfallers, everyone violates them with (throw) combos.

But this is also just my experience with it, and I may be wrong in some way; we unfortunately lack an in-depth thread on Robin's Dthrow and follow-ups on the level of BJN39's Zelda Dthrow/Finger Bang thread, and as much as I'd like to test things myself or just be of any use to the Robin meta, I can't.

I cannot provide roster-wide data, but I've run the numbers with Bowser previously. With the heaviest character in the game, it's crucial to know how weight based combo throws perform. Robin has 26 endlag after dthrowing Bowser. His jumpsquat is 7, and Uair's startup is 10. Since Dthrow does not send very far, Robin buffers Uair during jumpsquat and lets full hop cover the distance. Theres no question about frame perfect inputs if you're free to buffer everything. In theory, Robin hits Bowser on frame 43, And with hitstun canceling via airdodge, Bowser would be on frame 3 of buffered air dodge - his last vulnerable frame. However, Robin's Uair first active hit frame begins under his body. By the time it swings up to hit Bowser, Bowser is intangible. My precise numbers may not be 100%, but the theory holds up if you test it with two controllers in training mode, Bowser will evade every time, and with no DI necessary.

Ah, and another morsel from my notes, Robin cannot jab after Dthrowing Bowser until about 18%. Bowser uses his Dair landing hit. If done at 0%, Robin cannot even pull shield if he's aware of the trick. He could escape with double jump too, but a Dair would reset neutral. in addition to 2% damage.

 

[Masonomace]

By the way, if any talk about grab problems or whiffing is an issue with discussing a tether grab-nature, Olimar can do this with the right spacing of grabbing someone near ledge. Think of that scenario when one ledge-drops & doublejumps onto the stage, right? This picture below is an example of that:

Spoiler: Olimar pikmin grab image

http://i.imgur.com/UwHNOXo.jpg

Also, Mario is airborne as he dangles from being grabbed, so this is actually not a bad comparison for testing Dthrow kill percents with every character.

My next post will be the good stuff.

 

[Vyrnx]

There's much more to it than that. I'm fairly certain that Falcon has absolutely nothing, not even a single Uair on the heaviest target, Bowser if he's appropriately using DI away and escape options should Falcon approach for a followup. I'm just not sure how much I stress tested the theory. Even with the most optimally executed dthrow and slide, you can't guarantee a knee on anything as heavy as Mario. And even that's an optimistic claim, as my crude testing can't accurately factor the extra distance Falcon must run when they DI away, or for air dodging out of hitstun which training mode does not account for. Correct DI matters for everybody, not just the heavyweights. That distance you must run to catch up to the opponent eats into Falcon's five or so frames of leniency before he inputs jump and Fair during jumpsquat. Even with frame perfection, I hesitate to name even a single character that is truly susceptible to it until I see hard evidence with a real testing method. If Sheik and ZSS were, I'd imagine it's even more difficult than Zelda's Dthrow to Uair to execute with frame perfection. She doesn't have to dash, or time a jump, after all.

Still, what you can expect out of Falcon's throw is Uairs - sometimes even two of them. Quicker startup on Uair means much more generous time frame to reach the target, sliding momentum not typically necessary unless it's a heavyweight target.


I cannot provide roster-wide data, but I've run the numbers with Bowser previously. With the heaviest character in the game, it's crucial to know how weight based combo throws perform. Robin has 26 endlag after dthrowing Bowser. His jumpsquat is 7, and Uair's startup is 10. Since Dthrow does not send very far, Robin buffers Uair during jumpsquat and lets full hop cover the distance. Theres no question about frame perfect inputs if you're free to buffer everything. In theory, Robin hits Bowser on frame 43, And with hitstun canceling via airdodge, Bowser would be on frame 3 of buffered air dodge - his last vulnerable frame. However, Robin's Uair first active hit frame begins under his body. By the time it swings up to hit Bowser, Bowser is intangible. My precise numbers may not be 100%, but the theory holds up if you test it with two controllers in training mode, Bowser will evade every time, and with no DI necessary.

Ah, and another morsel from my notes, Robin cannot jab after Dthrowing Bowser until about 18%. Bowser uses his Dair landing hit. If done at 0%, Robin cannot even pull shield if he's aware of the trick. He could escape with double jump too, but a Dair would reset neutral. in addition to 2% damage.

Trifroze did really good testing on Falcon's dthrow knee here. He also discusses the effect of weight based and dash grab vs standing. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4OTNHLG0aqA
The fact it exists at all is good because knee is pretty crazy, but it isn't hugely applicable. Most of the time top Falcon's get dthrow knee, the opponent messes up which does happen sometimes, in which case knee is guaranteed.

I'm pretty sure that Falcon can guarantee a nair or uair on Bowser at the 30-70 range, though my testing is much more crude and Bowser's weight is pretty exceptional. Even in the case of Ganon, combos are noticeably easier, and definitely once you get down past super heavyweights, which includes all of the more viable characters.

I know that on fast fallers, dthrow to nair x4 is guaranteed depending on how much stage the Falcon has, or at least I've heard Falcon's including trifroze mention it. Dthrow nair x3 works on several top tiers as well. Dthrow to uair combos can do nasty damage at midpercents, especially on platform stages.

Falcon's weight based dthrow may be limited against a small subset of characters, but on the flip side, it's effectiveness against the lighter 90% of the cast and especially the weight/fallspeed of top tiers is huge, and it's combo range on some characters is massive. It can range from just dthrow to uair on Ganon to dthrow to massive combos on Fox to dthrow to knee on Mewtwo. The best the move has to offer is just really good, and the best it has to offer is coincidentally against the best characters.

I wouldn't argue that it's S tier though mostly because of the lack of reliable kill confirms as opposed to other dthrows.

 

[Masonomace]

Also, here's Dthrow kill percents at the very end of ledge (to the point that the character is teetering over ledge):

Note: Character Dthrows Mario at the right ledge. So now you know for when you see optimal DI directions. And again, when I say "notable", this means that the throw killed before 300%. Enjoy.

Character | Dthrow optimal kill % | Deadly Blow starting %
| 209% with optimal DI | 203%
| 214% with optimal DI | 169%
Facing toward blastline | 257%with optimal DI | 210%
Facing away from blastline | 199% with optimal DI | 181%
| 178% with optimal DI | 162%
Facing toward blastline | 272% with optimal DI | 257%
Facing away from blastline | 273% with optimal DI | 258%
Cargo Dthrow | 218% with optimal DI | 195%
| 278% with optimal DI | 240%
| 187% with optimal DI | 180%
| 235% with optimal DI | 228%
| 206% with optimal DI | 210%
| 265% with optimal DI | 257%
| 268% with optimal DI | 232%
(0/0) | 262% with optimal DI | 254%
(50/50) | 261% with optimal DI | 253%
(100/100) | 259% with optimal DI | 252%
(0/0) | 292% with optimal DI | 281%
(50/50) | 290% with optimal DI | 281%
(100/100) | 289% with optimal DI | 280%
| 266% with optimal DI | 260%
Blue pikmin | 232% with optimal DI | 214%
| 232% with optimal DI | 225%
| 282% with optimal DI | 279%
| 203% with optimal DI | 194%
普(Vanilla) | 179% with optimal DI | 150%
撃(Smash) | 124% with optimal DI | 100%
Facing toward blastline | 287% with optimal DI | 241%
Facing away from blastline | 241% with optimal DI | 241%
| 291% with optimal DI | 266%
Facing towards blastline | 251% with optimal DI | 242%
Facing towards blastline Fresh Deep Breating | 215% with optimal DI | 207%

EDIT: Also, for lols, I tested Hyper Smash Shulk's Dthrow versus Mario at the very ledge & he died at 71% with optimal DI. Lol this game

 

[MarshieMan]

*delete post*

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I think Bowser is literally the only character checkmate doesn't work on, because he's the heaviest character in the game and also a floaty. And at low percents, dthrow to jab is true on a majority of the cast, and dthrow to utilt is true on a majority of the cast at mid percents. So when you say "Robin only gets nasty stuff in certain matchups," those certain matchups happen to be nearly every character. And when you say "Robin's dthrow is unsafe at low percents," it is only unsafe against a very small number of characters.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I think Bowser is literally the only character checkmate doesn't work on, because he's the heaviest character in the game and also a floaty. And at low percents, dthrow to jab is true on a majority of the cast, and dthrow to utilt is true on a majority of the cast at mid percents. So when you say "Robin only gets nasty stuff in certain matchups," those certain matchups happen to be nearly every character. And when you say "Robin's dthrow is unsafe at low percents," it is only unsafe against a very small number of characters.

Could you also check to see if checkmate is a confirm on Mii Gunner? I have tried to get it on Mii Gunner, but it seems that Gunner can airdodge out of it at kill percents. I notice that it is pretty hard to land checkmate on Gunner since the character is small, heavy, and floaty.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I think Bowser is literally the only character checkmate doesn't work on, because he's the heaviest character in the game and also a floaty. And at low percents, dthrow to jab is true on a majority of the cast, and dthrow to utilt is true on a majority of the cast at mid percents. So when you say "Robin only gets nasty stuff in certain matchups," those certain matchups happen to be nearly every character. And when you say "Robin's dthrow is unsafe at low percents," it is only unsafe against a very small number of characters.

I cannot confirm another when Robin is buffering options at 1/4x speed, no. Donkey Kong is hit on his final vulnerable frame of air dodge, for instance. Samus and Charizard too who are lighter but floatier and have better air dodges. I do find it dubious that seemingly every character as heavy as Mario yet isn't a fast faller is not registering this followup as a true combo at the lowest ranges where it can kill. Training mode does not account for air dodge vulnerability, nor hitstun cancelling once the victim has entered tumble %s. If anything it should be over-confirming the combo. Could it be that all of these guys are getting hit out of their air dodges? The numbers don't add up in my head, but that suggests a new problem at later %s with floatier characters. If they're sent high enough that Robin has to double jump, that means inputs can't be buffered. By the very nature of human hands and input lag, you have to eat into Robin's 3-5 frame window. And with the victim DIing away, that means Robin must drift forward during his 10-12 frames of ascension. With a tilt stick and R set to jump, holding Jump, forward, and buffering up on the C-stick is feasible so long as a double jump isn't necessary.

But let's talk about Jab and Utilt. Dthrow to Utilt is a 12% combo. Dthrow to jab can be much more, but we know from jab discussions how notoriously easy it is to escape wind jab - when you're on the ground at high%. With an airborne victim, you'll be out as early as the transition between jabs 1 and 2, allowing for a hard punish. Dthrow to Fire jab would be 18%, but it too will likely fail unless they're on the ground. So is the 20-40 effective range for dthrow to Utilt all Robin gets before Uair on the majority of the cast? Sounds underwhelming to me.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

IMO Shulk's d-throw is A tier. It's a decent combo throw (Buster d-throw into f-smash does 32% IIRC) and a great kill throw.

 

[Poisonous]

I'd argue that Doc has an S tier grab, it's more useful on some characters than it is on others. At low %s (0-15, goes higher vs certain chars, floaties don't get caught by this), he can usually go for dthrow usmash for solid damage. Other solid damage combos he has off dthrow is dthrow - bair - bair/upb, dthrow uair upb, and the infamous dthrow fair. Dthrow fair works against most relevant chars, having a whopping 45% window on ZSS as a true combo if you follow their DI. A lot of heavies avoid it as a true combo besides Falcon and Megaman iirc. All in all, a pretty threatening dthrow imo.

 

[MarshieMan]

I'd argue that Doc has an S tier grab, it's more useful on some characters than it is on others. At low %s (0-15, goes higher vs certain chars, floaties don't get caught by this), he can usually go for dthrow usmash for solid damage. Other solid damage combos he has off dthrow is dthrow - bair - bair/upb, dthrow uair upb, and the infamous dthrow fair. Dthrow fair works against most relevant chars, having a whopping 45% window on ZSS as a true combo if you follow their DI. A lot of heavies avoid it as a true combo besides Falcon and Megaman iirc. All in all, a pretty threatening dthrow imo.

Except his Dthrow is a strictly weaker version of mario's. Also if you've been following this discussion you would have noticed that all the other S tier throws we have established are significantly more potent than Docs

But we should discuss whether mario is A or S tier

 

[Djmarcus44]

I said it doesn't work under any circumstance because I didn't take the time to test every character at every percent. With how impossible it looked on Mario, I saw no need to spend time proving 3% of the claim. Mario is the default test subject because he possesses no special attributes like fast falling, low or high weight, or a large hurtbox like the punching bag, DK. Even if you ignore DI, it's only been proposed to connect on DK. Yet during the five posts before that the presumed argument was "It probably work on everybody!" and "it works on nobody". You need to be able to provide even one proof of a claim and it took several days for somebody to come in and name drop DK. That's one out of 58. And I'm not expecting more than two or three additions to the list. The verdict is that ALL of Pit's fthrow followups are susceptible to DI. And fthrow is naturally outclassed by Dthrow in all scenarios.

I like the final Fthrow list, but I don't approve of Mario's move to B. It's either totally the same or inferior to Dr. Mario and Luigi in every way who are now correctly in C.



It's true that that's a DI mixup, but in training mode FD, Bayonetta's Dthrow kills Mario on 196 with DI in. 200 for no DI, and 209 for DI away. I can't imagine an opponent living so long in any competitive match. It would be more rare than...well, Bayonetta killing with Fthrow.



I was unaware of Dthrow to Nair on fast fallers at 0%. Though I doubt it would still connect should the victim DI away. Gunner's Nair swings in all directions, except above and behind, and that's the direction you're trying to reach for a dthrow followup. I have an issue with the assertion that it frame traps. It has neither the active frames to beat an air dodge, nor a quick enough FAF where Gunner would act first against an air dodging opponent. As for Uair, again you're fighting the victim's DI away. Even if they air dodge too fast and get trapped, equal or better air speed can save them as they drift. And you can't expect kills as soon as 120% as long as they are air dodge, since they fall further from the ceiling blast zone for the final hit to kill.

Nair has a first hit that is above Gunner. Usually the characters that get hit by this combo are slower than Gunner in the air. The frame traps mainly come from super heavyweight characters that are forced to airdodge into the ground because of their poor defensive options. Gunner's combination of good aerial acceleration and decent airspeed allows Gunner to follow an opponent (If I remember correctly, an airdodge restricts a character's ability to DI away from moves).

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I cannot confirm another when Robin is buffering options at 1/4x speed, no. Donkey Kong is hit on his final vulnerable frame of air dodge, for instance. Samus and Charizard too who are lighter but floatier and have better air dodges. I do find it dubious that seemingly every character as heavy as Mario yet isn't a fast faller is not registering this followup as a true combo at the lowest ranges where it can kill. Training mode does not account for air dodge vulnerability, nor hitstun cancelling once the victim has entered tumble %s. If anything it should be over-confirming the combo. Could it be that all of these guys are getting hit out of their air dodges? The numbers don't add up in my head, but that suggests a new problem at later %s with floatier characters. If they're sent high enough that Robin has to double jump, that means inputs can't be buffered. By the very nature of human hands and input lag, you have to eat into Robin's 3-5 frame window. And with the victim DIing away, that means Robin must drift forward during his 10-12 frames of ascension. With a tilt stick and R set to jump, holding Jump, forward, and buffering up on the C-stick is feasible so long as a double jump isn't necessary.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. It's very stream-of-consciousness and hard to follow.

But let's talk about Jab and Utilt. Dthrow to Utilt is a 12% combo. Dthrow to jab can be much more, but we know from jab discussions how notoriously easy it is to escape wind jab - when you're on the ground at high%. With an airborne victim, you'll be out as early as the transition between jabs 1 and 2, allowing for a hard punish. Dthrow to Fire jab would be 18%, but it too will likely fail unless they're on the ground. So is the 20-40 effective range for dthrow to Utilt all Robin gets before Uair on the majority of the cast? Sounds underwhelming to me.

Wind jab is easy to escape, yes (unless your name is Fox). Fire jab can be escaped by a few characters at very low percents (like, below 15%), but can only be escaped by an extremely small handful of characters any higher than that. Once dthrow to jab no longer works, you can do dthrow to utilt, or dthrow and then an airdodge mindgame. They would be able to airdodge a buffered aerial, but you can also wait for the airdodge and then punish. They can't double jump out of a buffered aerial, but they can double jump away if you wait too long. You can also fastfall and regrab them if you go for the buffered aerial and they airdodge it.

 

[Poisonous]

Except his Dthrow is a strictly weaker version of mario's. Also if you've been following this discussion you would have noticed that all the other S tier throws we have established are significantly more potent than Docs

But we should discuss whether mario is A or S tier

My bad, forgot that Mario killed most relevant characters off a grab around 70-90% (without rage). Doc's grab isn't strictly weaker than Mario's. Doc's dthrow is far more threatening.

 

[Ninety]

Quick question, what's the criteria here for ranking throws? Raw numbers? Amount of followups options? Damage converted from them? Kills?

Because it's really looking to me like Robin's dthrow is being underrated something fierce here.

 

[MarshieMan]

My bad, forgot that Mario killed most relevant characters off a grab around 70-90% (without rage). Doc's grab isn't strictly weaker than Mario's. Doc's dthrow is far more threatening.

-mario can get 40+ damage off a grab
-mario can also KO off a grab
-you're way exaggerating the KO power of Doc's dthrow

You said it yourself, it requires a DI read, and unless youre playing against for-glory noobs, thats going to be a lot less consistent than you think.

Ive never, not even once, felt threatened by getting Dthrowed by Doc(let alone Doc in general). It may be that my region has no good Docs, ive only fought 1 or 2 good ones, but neither of them got Dthrow > Fair on me.

If Doc could true combo any top tier character from 70-90% for a ko(like you seem to think) he would be a lot more relevant. Even if it surpasses mario's Dthrow in KO potential, it still falls way behind when it comes to combo power and basic utility.


Do you have any threads or videos as a reference to back what you're saying?

Quick question, what's the criteria here for ranking throws?

Combo ability(damage potential including follow-ups, as well as percent range and reliability) and raw kill power.

We also take raw damage into consideration, but with a grain of salt.

 

[ARGHETH]

Question: are we arguing on whether Robin's Dthrow is S or A tier or if it's A or B tier? Because I'm getting the feeling it's the latter.

(I think it's A tier, personally)

 

[MarshieMan]

Question: are we arguing on whether Robin's Dthrow is S or A tier or if it's A or B tier? Because I'm getting the feeling it's the latter.

(I think it's A tier, personally)

We're debating A or S. I think its A as well, which seems to be the general opinion.

Also if Robin's is A tier then there's no way Doc's could be S
'- '

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Robin's should be A ya. Noticeably better than Ike's, which I'd consider B.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so here is the preliminary list for Down-throw:

Spoiler: Down-Throw

Discuss!

 

[TDK]

Doc's down throw isn't B when he gets equal or more reward off of it than Mario. Toon Link's down throw isn't B when he gets literally nothing off of it and it doesn't kill. I also don't think Lucas's is better than Ness's, Zeldas, or Luigi's. Diddy's Dthrow isn't that good either and is strictly outclassed by Uthrow.

B -> S
B -> D
S -> A
A -> C

 

[ARGHETH]

Marth and Lucina get Uair/Bair at low percents, so I'm not entirely sure they should be in D tier. I'd be okay with them staying, though. Pit has a bunch of combos off Dthrow, so they should be moved up a tier.
/ D->C?
/ C->B

 

[MarshieMan]

Luigi should be S tier imo, but after the nerfs i could understand him being at A.

Also i second that Doc should be moved up, but not to S. I see him more as A tier.

Lucas is fine at S tier. His throw can wrack up damage way more effectively than Ness's AND it has a kill confirm.

Diddy A -> B
Mewtwo B -> D
Bowser Jr B-> C
Samus C -> B (maybe)

Finally ROB should certainly be S tier. He has one of the best, if not THE best hooh-hah in the game.

 

[Masonomace]

Shulk in C is very out of place. Reasons:

• Buster Dthrow → Jab combo only works on three characters, but dealing 27.02% with a very basic combo is stupid good.
• Smash Dthrow is the best down throw for killing at the ledge, in fact it's leagues better than the next best killing dthrows.
• Buster Dthrow → Ftilt / Dtilt / Air Slash / Fsmash / Dash attack are getting more lab-time by the Shulk community recently, & Buster Dthrow → Fsmash being true dealing 35.7% is insane. . .. because it's so simple to deal that with two inputs.
• I'll stop talking about Buster Dthrow → stuff, because you're gonna deal 20-40% in one combo, & the fact that these combos are dumb easy to input, except for Dash Attack if you're being Instant about it & also since it's DI-dependent.
• Jump & Speed have combos too, but we don't have exact ranges yet.

 

[Kofu]

Doc's down throw isn't B when he gets equal or more reward off of it than Mario. Toon Link's down throw isn't B when he gets literally nothing off of it and it doesn't kill. I also don't think Lucas's is better than Ness's, Zeldas, or Luigi's. Diddy's Dthrow isn't that good either and is strictly outclassed by Uthrow.

B -> S
B -> D
S -> A
A -> C

I have a hard time seeing Doc's as better than Mario's, since I believe that Mario's has more consistent followups. Doc's strings do more damage, though, and he can get kills with DThrow to FAir. I could see it being S.

Lucas's DThrow is definitely better than Ness's lol. Luigi is debatable, Zelda is mainly only there because of DThrow to UAir but that alone is scary. I'd still say it's S, as is has reliable damage, frame traps, and a kill confirm.

Ok so here is the preliminary list for Down-throw:

Spoiler: Down-Throw

View attachment 117922

Discuss!

Diddy's should drop as mentioned. I could see B or C.

I could see Game & Watch going to S but it's your call. He can get a lot of damage from it and a kill confirm with a narrow window.

Link's could be A, he gets a lot of mileage out of his DThrow on most of the cast and occasionally has a kill confirm from it.

Bowser Jr.'s is bad and only has slight killing potential though I doubt it would kill earlier than UThrow or BThrow save for rare cases. C or D tier.

Toon Link's is bad. D tier.

You could make a case for Palutena in A; she gets DThrow to FAir guaranteed on most of the cast for a long time, and bad DI/option select means she can kill you with UAir, USmash, or BAir (the last might even be confirmed regardless on occasion).

Samus, the Pits, Greninja, Dedede, and Mega Man all deserve to move up. Possibly Mii Swordfighter and Duck Hunt as well.

Mac and Falco need to move up (possibly the Falchions too). Falco has low percent combos from his as does Mac. Mac may also have Rising Uppercut as a kill confirm from DThrow too.

Sonic, Mewtwo, Wario, and Roy either don't have anything confirmed from their DThrows or very little, but they make the opponent chose an option that can usually be covered or followed up.

Here's a little cheat sheet I made, may be a little off:

Spoiler: Throw qualities

Reliable high damage combos:

Consistent followups:

Low percent followups:

Might link into stuff I guess???:

Kills:

Kill confirms: (maybe ?)

Kill confirm mixups:

Techchase/airdodge bait:

Good damage

Bad: (arguably )

Might be wrong on some of these, especially the damage ones.

Finally ROB should certainly be S tier. He has one of the best, if not THE best hooh-hah in the game.

I've seen this mentioned but I've always found his DThrow to be very easy to escape at kill percents. It gets really screwy with rage, too. Do you have any high-level footage ROB's DThrow to UAir being repeatedly successful? I mean, it's a threat, but it hardly seems super reliable.

 

[kendikong]

Too high:
They are much worse than those in their tiers

Too low:
They are much better than those in their tiers

I don't know enough about Wario's, what does he have to warrant B?

Also, do you think we should make use of F tier to differentiate the Tiers a bit more?

 

[Galaxeon]

deserves to be one tier higher IMO. It can have nice follow-ups at low percents (Dtilt-Dthrow-Dtilt-Dthrow-Dilt works on fastfallers, coupled with another grab into an uair combo, this does around 40%) although it depends really on your opponent's weight and stuff. But main reason why it should go up : Dthrow-Fair is a good combo that will take stocks early especially near the ledge. The "d-throw -> fair" part is not guaranteed strictly speaking, but the whole thing is a kill set-up because your opponent can't do much : if they jump/attack they die, if they airdodge you just land and punish to get the kill. And you don't have to predict the airdodge, you have enough time to simply land after your missed fair and punish. So this isn't a 50/50 situation where you have to guess right, it's more than that. You just do the Dthrow-fair, and it leads to a certain kill whether it's the fair itself or the punish one second later (of course you can mess-up the punish if they airdodge so this isn't a guaranteed kill set-up as good as, let's say, MK's or ZSS' but still pretty useful).
Also, all of this is only in a case where the DI is on point, otherwise if they DI anything other than "away" it becomes a guaranteed kill combo (and this isn't that rare because the throw is very quick, isn't dependent on weight and is usually not expected).

Only flaw is that you have to do the throw out of a dash grab without pummels to keep your momentum, otherwise they can jump if they DI correctly, but since Greninja's dash grab is usually the one you're always using it doesn't really matter.

It's not an amazing throw by any mean but it's definetly more useful than Bayo's, Cloud's, Kirby's and other in the C-tier, and is on-par with some of the B-tier, having its uses at both low and high percents.

 

[adom4]

Too high:
They are much worse than those in their tiers

Too low:
They are much better than those in their tiers

I don't know enough about Wario's, what does he have to warrant B?

Also, do you think we should make use of F tier to differentiate the Tiers a bit more?

Ganon's D-throw is fine at B, the low % follow ups from it are very good against most of the cast (save on a few characters) & it's especially good on some characters like captain Falcon.

 

[Kofu]

Too high:
They are much worse than those in their tiers

Too low:
They are much better than those in their tiers

I don't know enough about Wario's, what does he have to warrant B?

Also, do you think we should make use of F tier to differentiate the Tiers a bit more?

Charizard seems like he fits well in B, mind elaborating on that one?

 

[kendikong]

Ganon's D-throw is fine at B, the low % follow ups from it are very good against most of the cast (save on a few characters) & it's especially good on some characters like captain Falcon.

Nevermind about him. Looking back at him, his combo range is much better than I thought.

Charizard seems like he fits well in B, mind elaborating on that one?

Compared to the rest of the B tier, his combo works at more percents, and he has true kill confirms against certain characters at certain percents even with optimal DI or against anyone with bad DI. And at the least he can get a 50/50 kill out of characters just outside of his combo range.

This sort of goes for Palutena as well.

 

[arbustopachon]

It's a reliable combo move. Pretty much you'll always get 18% out of it.

D-throw- Uair/ Bair is a kill confirm against bad di. D-throw Bair is also a kill confirm against good di on fastfallers. D-throw bair is hard to do tho.

You can get silly strings that rack up damage fast like: d-throw, nair, jab1, jab 2, regrab, pummel, d-throw, fair (43%).

The move is not weight dependent which is a plus. What kinda kills the move tho is just how easy it is to di due to both the length of the animation and the launch angle. If you know what you are doing you should never be taking anything more than 18% from zard's d-throw.

Eh, i think B is ok. I can see the argument for A, but it relies a lot on the opponent being a fastfaller/not knowing the matchup to really perform like an A throw.

 

[adom4]

Ganon's D-throw also confirms out of bad DI (D-throw Fair), i don't think bad DI is enough of a reason to bring them to A tier.

 

[Routa]

I just want to remind that C tier has moves that are considered to be decent.

I personally do think that Wario's D-throw deserves to be in C tier. It isn't bad nor is it great.
Also there has been a bit chatting about Swordspider's D-throw into Uair actually being a true kill combo. So far we know that it works against fastfallers and against couple others with other factors like staleing and rage.

 

[kendikong]

I see Zard as in between A and B. He could stay at B, but some of the weaker B tier throws should go down. I just don't like that it's in the same tier some of the other B tier throws that are less consistent and don't even have any ko potential.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Why is Meta Knight S tier?