Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Solfiner]

Just wanna remind that Shulk's Dthrow on its own in Vanilla is C tier. With Jump, it's still C tier, for now as far as we know. Speed art is B tier since it does gain low % combos / followups. Shield art is likely C or D tier, probably D tier. Buster art is A tier because you not only have low % & mid % combos / followups, but at higher percents like mid-high to high, you can buffer deactivation Buster & kill confirm with moves such as Perfect-Pivot Fsmash angled up, Dash attack with bad DI, Air Slash, Dair via airdodge read near ledge, etc.. Smash art despite of having no known combo ability, it is a kill throw which being the best kill throw at ledge.

This is why ranking Shulk's moves in a vacuum is pointless, Monado arts completely make his character. Buster makes Bthrow stupid af while it's only decent in vanilla for example.

 

[MarshieMan]

I don't think Lucas should be S tier. It is absolutely not comparable to Mario and ZSS, and to pretend it is would be a joke. He does have the footstool infinite, but the fact that no Lucas player can do it consistently proves to me that it isn't reliable enough to put Lucas's dthrow into S tier. Other than the infinite, he can do dthrow to nair at low percents, and dthrow to uair at higher percents (although this appears to be much easier to escape than those of characters like ZSS or Robin or R.O.B.), but that's about it. Frankly, I think it should be B tier.

The #1 PR in my region is a Lucas main, and he uses Lucas's footstool infinite in almost every match.

Also he can do more than Dhrow > Nair, much more. Plus the Nair combos into Fair or another Nair(which can then true combo into an Uair)

He can Dthrow > Dair > Bair as well, which can even follow up into a regrab if your opponent fails to react properly.

Oh and Lucas's kill confirm KOs a lot earlier than ZSS's (which is technically avoidable with proper DI). Yes, ROB and Robin have more reliable kill confirms, but they lack the low % combos Lucas has.

Meta Knight also should not be S tier. At low percents he can do dthrow to dash attack. At mid percents he can do dthrow to usmash, but this can be escaped every time by DIing up and away and airdodging. And at high percents, he gets nothing off of it. Dthrow to dash attack at low percents alone makes it very good, but certainly not S tier.

I dont even know how to respond to this, youre wrong about everything in it. Basically you just need to do some proper research.

But I'll humor you anyways, at low percent MK can Dthow > PP FF Bair > Dtilt x3 > Regrab. That alone deals like 25 damage and is inescapable for the entire cast except maybe luigi because he slides so far after the first dtilt.

Also, move Luigi up to S tier. He gets free ez-bake combos at practically every percent off of it.

Yeah i agree with this though.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

at low percent MK can Dthow > PP FF Bair > Dtilt x3 > Regrab. That alone deals like 25 damage and is inescapable for the entire cast except maybe luigi because he slides so far after the first dtilt.

Well, since Bair's first two hits are weight based and don't scale on airborne targets, you can't do that entire sequence on some characters. It is generally accepted that Metaknight will have about 8-10 frames of advantage against them however - enough for a turnaround grab if you waste no time. Samus, Ganondorf, Charizard, Donkey Kong, Dedede, Bowser, Shield Shulk, and sometimes Bowser jr only receive 8.5% damage before the regrab since they don't incur tumble. Bowser jr. is iffy because it depends on whether the Bair connects with his body or his clown kart.

 

[MarshieMan]

Well, since Bair's first two hits are weight based and don't scale on airborne targets, you can't do that entire sequence on some characters. It is generally accepted that Metaknight will have about 8-10 frames of advantage against them however - enough for a turnaround grab if you waste no time. Samus, Ganondorf, Charizard, Donkey Kong, Dedede, Bowser, Shield Shulk, and sometimes Bowser jr only receive 8.5% damage before the regrab since they don't incur tumble. Bowser jr. is iffy because it depends on whether the Bair connects with his body or his clown kart.

Thank you for the correction

The main point of the combo is the regrab, so i would assume that theoretically the regrab combo could be repeated at least once or twice more. Expecially since we're talking about heavyweights, and MK's Dthrow is non-weight dependent.

Even if that isnt possible, these heavy weights we are talking about are certainly the most susceptible to MK's latter combo, due to their large hurtboxes. which imo is a better trade to make.

Edit: Oh, and all the characters you mentioned have poor MUs against MK anyways, but thats a whole other conversation

Ah and technically theyd take 10-11% damage before the regrab because Dthrow(7.5%) > Bair 1/2 (3%) + Fresh damage

And MK could opt for a Dtilt instead of a regrab, but thats taking a chance because it would require the trip effect which only happens like 50% of the time.

 

[Ffamran]

They arent even similar. Theyre completely different in every way. BKB, KBG, angle, follow up options, positioning, reward. Dont compare them. The only thing thats similar is how they look and that theyre both space animals.

Did you read my post? Falco has /gauranteed/ follow ups. As in they are unavoidable. As in they cannot be avoided. As in you can DI as much as you want, mash air dodge as much as you want, pray as much as you want; youre still gonna get hit. They aren't "strings" they're true combos. Yeah, past low percent theyre not gauranteed, but unlike fox who has literally nothing at any percent, falco can actually true combo till about 20-30%.

After that theyre both set ups? Yeah, like hundreds of moves. Its nothing unique to fox and falco. And competent opponents avoid basic set ups.


??? Have you used Fox's Uthrow in this game. Your argument is "well his up throw can SET UP an up air, but it wont combo!" Well literally every up throw in the game can set up an Uair. Because up throws.. well, throw UP. And when your opponent is above you.. up air.

Fox Uthrow > Uair is a useless set up that nobody goes for.

Also, Falco can true combo Uthrow > Uair well into mid-high%. Its never true for fox.

Is Dthrow > Blaster an option? Yeah. But a reasonable falco would never do that, as you said above he could just Uthrow. So how is there any validity to that argument? His Uthow and Bthrow by themself deal more damage than Dthrow > Blaster

KBG limits every combo in the game, not just Falco's Dthrow. I personally think his mobility is a bigger damper on his Dthrow follow ups than the KBG.

And that 20% is only if you get the sweet-spot on Bair. When i tested it for myself i saw 14% and forgot that there was a sweet-spot.

I dont know if falco should be B, C, D, or F tier. I dont particularly care, because i consider the criteria for choosing tiers on attacks overly subjective.

My main argument was how Falco's Dthrow differs from Fox's, and how Falco's was objectively better.

Also you seemed to ignore the part where i referenced Falco's low % combo ability, which conveniently outclasses Fox's low % combo ability. Thats the main difference. Falco has pretty solid low % combos, while fox doesn't. Which is why i think his throw is better.

Edit: ah one more thing. In your first post you said that both falco and fox rely more on Uthrows than Dthrows. This is wrong, Fox will typically opt for a Dthrow and go for a Bair (and possible frame trap) while Falco will opt for Uthrow. This isnt because Fox has a superior Dthrow, its just because Falco has better throws in general, and his Uthrow has really good true followups.

I'm going to keep this short since I'm in no mood for arguing and this is getting stuff derailed. Some clarifications is all.

1. Fox's Bair has no sour-spots since Smash 4's launch. This is not Brawl where the right leg which is basically the right knee considering where it was tucked in was a sour-spot that did 9% and this is clearly not Melee where the Fox did a split kick instead of a whip kick like he does now since Brawl. Smash 4 Fox's Bair only does 13%, no late hits, no sour-spots, nothing. Just a clean, frame 9, 13% hit. Don't trust me? Check any frame data on Fox.

2. Falco and Fox's D-throw can be compared. That's how anyone can conclude why, as a horizontal set-up throw, Falco's D-throw is better because of its ability to combo and string at low percents and even followup at high percents while Fox's can only be followed up on. If we do not reasonably -- so, not comparing Falco's horizontal set-up D-throw to Zelda's vertical set-up D-throw or Ganondorf's Flame Choke to Luigi's Green Missile -- compare them, then we cannot say theirs or any others moves are better, worse, whatever.

3. Why did I ignore Falco's low percent combos and strings? Because everyone who discussed Falco's D-throw mentioned them already. My stance on it is that it's not enough for his D-throw to be considered an average, C-tier D-throw when it's limited to such a low range compared to D-throws that can combo and/or string into mid-percents or are very specific KO confirms. Is it a better D-throw than Fox's? Yes. Is it so much better that it should be a tier above Fox's? For me, no, because past low-percents, it just becomes a followup throw like Fox's which considering Falco's low mobility isn't that great as Fox always has the speed to try for a followup. That's the whole point I'm trying to get.

4. When I said Fox can followup with Uair from U-throw, I emphasize on followup. This is different than saying Marth's U-throw can set-up (like any throw or even move), but has no real followups. Marth realistically cannot followup from U-throw which from Marth is because of his lower jump, lower ground speed to chase after an opponent's DI, and lower fall speed and gravity making jumps more committal compared to Fox who can fast fall to land quickly; and from U-throw, is its not as vertical angle, its high recovery, higher overall knockback not helped by its launch hit doing twice as much damage as Fox's, and that it's weighted unlike Fox's making it slower against heavier characters. Fox can followup with U-throw which players like Larry Lurr and Shogun have gone for, but not as common as in the past, especially Larry Lurr. I am behind in whatever people do since outside of general life stuff, one, I'm not omniscient -- I can't pour all my time watching and learning everything -- and two, I've been trying to learn more about Street Fighter and KoF XIV. That being said, none of that excuses me for being wrong when I said Fox uses U-throw more than D-throw.

That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[MarshieMan]

I'm going to keep this short since I'm in no mood for arguing and this is getting stuff derailed. Some clarifications is all.

1. Fox's Bair has no sour-spots since Smash 4's launch. This is not Brawl where the right leg which is basically the right knee considering where it was tucked in was a sour-spot that did 9% and this is clearly not Melee where the Fox did a split kick instead of a whip kick like he does now since Brawl. Smash 4 Fox's Bair only does 13%, no late hits, no sour-spots, nothing. Just a clean, frame 9, 13% hit. Don't trust me? Check any frame data on Fox.

2. Falco and Fox's D-throw can be compared. That's how anyone can conclude why, as a horizontal set-up throw, Falco's D-throw is better because of its ability to combo and string at low percents and even followup at high percents while Fox's can only be followed up on. If we do not reasonably -- so, not comparing Falco's horizontal set-up D-throw to Zelda's vertical set-up D-throw or Ganondorf's Flame Choke to Luigi's Green Missile -- compare them, then we cannot say theirs or any others moves are better, worse, whatever.

3. Why did I ignore Falco's low percent combos and strings? Because everyone who discussed Falco's D-throw mentioned them already. My stance on it is that it's not enough for his D-throw to be considered an average, C-tier D-throw when it's limited to such a low range compared to D-throws that can combo and/or string into mid-percents or are very specific KO confirms. Is it a better D-throw than Fox's? Yes. Is it so much better that it should be a tier above Fox's? For me, no, because past low-percents, it just becomes a followup throw like Fox's which considering Falco's low mobility isn't that great as Fox always has the speed to try for a followup. That's the whole point I'm trying to get.

4. When I said Fox can followup with Uair from U-throw, I emphasize on followup. This is different than saying Marth's U-throw can set-up (like any throw or even move), but has no real followups. Marth realistically cannot followup from U-throw which from Marth is because of his lower jump, lower ground speed to chase after an opponent's DI, and lower fall speed and gravity making jumps more committal compared to Fox who can fast fall to land quickly; and from U-throw, is its not as vertical angle, its high recovery, higher overall knockback not helped by its launch hit doing twice as much damage as Fox's, and that it's weighted unlike Fox's making it slower against heavier characters. Fox can followup with U-throw which players like Larry Lurr and Shogun have gone for, but not as common as in the past, especially Larry Lurr. I am behind in whatever people do since outside of general life stuff, one, I'm not omniscient -- I can't pour all my time watching and learning everything -- and two, I've been trying to learn more about Street Fighter and KoF XIV. That being said, none of that excuses me for being wrong when I said Fox uses U-throw more than D-throw.

That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

A very fair response. Also i have since discovered that although Fox Dthrow > Bair deals 20%, the combo counter in training mode registers it as 14% for whatever reason. You can see for yourself.

"Falco's low mobility isn't that great as Fox always has the speed to try for a followup." Ive been saying that Falco's downfall is his bad mobility.

Personally, i think Falco's low % combo ability is enough to warrant a tiers worth of difference, especially considering the other characters in B and C tier. I can understand you disagreeing though.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

The best player in MY region is a Meta Knight main, so I know what I'm talking about. The perfect pivot bair out of dthrow isn't exactly reliable, so I think you're putting too much stock into it (plus, I think you can also tech the bair when you land). And dthrow is completely worthless at even moderately high percents, so it definitely shouldn't be S tier.

About Lucas, you can SDI out of his nair, so some of his dthrow combos aren't guaranteed. And if this infinite is as easy as you claim, why do we never see Taiheita do it? The only player I've ever seen do it in tournament only managed to get two footstools before he messed up. Lucas's dthrow is pretty much exactly as good as Robin's, so they should be in the same tier.

Now stop acting like a condescending jackass.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well if we're putting dthrows into a vacuum then lucas takes it.

-Most Hitstun
-Higher Angle (Meaning vertical confirms are more potent)
-Not weight dependent

As a special note I'm pretty sure Sakurai stated psi chars were supposed to have the best throws. If lucas didn't have to follow DI so precisely or nair wasn't sdiable it'd be busted.

Outside the vacuum, then zero suits is likely the best. Don't think for a second Mario or Luigi's dthrows are anywhere as potent or dangerous as this high risk high reward combo starter. They have to at least play around nairs

Due to the inconsistent ability to kill off dthrow, neither are S tier I feel like.

To be S tier it needs to both do damage for a wide range of percents and kill (consistently. Either true or 50/50)

Lucas, ROB, Robin, and ZSS are the only ones that fit this criteria which come to mind. (And pre-patch sheik. Prepatch diddy was SS)

Don't know what it's doing in B. It's well known this is not a combo throw, and it's Mewtwo's worst for damage. You're only free to attempt a followup just to force reactions from the opponent. In this regard, it's only as good as Fox or Clouds which also lack anything guaranteed but guessing games. Only has matchup relevance against Greninja, Yoshi, and Shield Shulk, who can escape Fthrow, but even then Bthrow fulfills the same niche because you have to be right at a ledge for that to kill earlier than Uthrow. I'm generally of the opinion that all throws that lack guaranteed combos deserve D and that you can move in others based on how bad their combo potentials are like:

B's too good but D's too bad.

The only way to opt out of it is by DI + Jump away (You're unable to jump inward usually)

M2 With a fully charged shadowball can easily create a landing trap. (Full Shadowball + DA breaks shield IIRC)

Also, on lower airspeed characters with poor recoveries such as luigi, bowser, or ness it's both easier to follow their di and more rewarding to punish.

If it weren't so damned rewarding (probably the easiest 0-death starter in the game) it'd definitely be D. Plenty of chars CAN cover options off a good angle but not combo throw, but none get all this ridiculous reward with little risk.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't think this requires explanation at this point. Deserves D.

Corrin's F-throw is ranked as C. Down-throw should also be C. It deals a solid 9.5 damage and puts many characters in a bad position.

 

[Solfiner]

The best player in MY region is a Meta Knight main, so I know what I'm talking about. The perfect pivot bair out of dthrow isn't exactly reliable, so I think you're putting too much stock into it (plus, I think you can also tech the bair when you land). And dthrow is completely worthless at even moderately high percents, so it definitely shouldn't be S tier.

About Lucas, you can SDI out of his nair, so some of his dthrow combos aren't guaranteed. And if this infinite is as easy as you claim, why do we never see Taiheita do it? The only player I've ever seen do it in tournament only managed to get two footstools before he messed up. Lucas's dthrow is pretty much exactly as good as Robin's, so they should be in the same tier.

Now stop acting like a condescending *******.

Lucas can follow the opponent's SDI.

 

[MarshieMan]

The best player in MY region is a Meta Knight main, so I know what I'm talking about. The perfect pivot bair out of dthrow isn't exactly reliable, so I think you're putting too much stock into it (plus, I think you can also tech the bair when you land). And dthrow is completely worthless at even moderately high percents, so it definitely shouldn't be S tier.

About Lucas, you can SDI out of his nair, so some of his dthrow combos aren't guaranteed. And if this infinite is as easy as you claim, why do we never see Taiheita do it? The only player I've ever seen do it in tournament only managed to get two footstools before he messed up. Lucas's dthrow is pretty much exactly as good as Robin's, so they should be in the same tier.

Now stop acting like a condescending *******.

Theres some special property to the bair that makes it untechable, im pretty sure. Not certain though, im only basing that part off of my smash corner and something i vaguely remember reading.

The PP Bair isnt really all that difficult, i can do it rather consistently and im not even a MK main. Tyrant occasionally goes for it, as stated earlier (they backed it up with links too). Over time it will probably become even more common. It isnt used that often though because the difficulty makes the risk/reward ratio complicated.

If you know as much about meta knight as youre saying, you wouldn't have made so many plain false statements about him and his Dthrow combos.

"At low percents he only gets dash attack" wrong. Thats only on fast fallers or as a DI mix up. Its also a pretty bad option.

"At mid percents he only gets Usmash" also wrong. Usmash stops working after low %, its one of his weakest followups. Also at mid % he can do his latter combo.

Even if your #1 PR is a MK main, that doesn't mean youve watched them play and played against them hundreds of times like i have with mine.

Alternately to PP bair, at 15-35% MK can:
Dthrow > RAR Uair > FF bair > Dtilt x3 which is a much easier jab lock that does the same thing. Also you keep ignoring MK's latter combo, which Dthrow is a viable starter for. Even if it doesnt kill, it can net 35%+ damage. However, it has the potential to kill players off of a grab at as low as 25%. Kind of a big deal.

Now onto Lucas.
First off, only some characters can SDI out of the Nair reliably, second Lucas can follow the SDI. As for Taiheita, i have no idea how often he goes for the footstool (we should really stop calling it an infinite, it technically isnt). I dont watch him play but i find it hard to believe he never ever attempts it, but either way people play differently. I already told you the Lucas main in my region goes for it constantly and it works. To be fair, there are certainly characters who are immune to it.

If you arent counting MK or Lucas as S tier, I'd be interested to know what you think makes the other S tier characters so much better? ZSS is actually worse than MK and Lucas imo. And mario, although reliable and easy, cant combo at high % and is limited to escapable Utilt strings at low %.

Also the reason the person only got two footsools is because its not an infinite. The combo can only be repeated once or twice before theyre too high up to land on their backs for the jab lock.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Theres some special property to the bair that makes it untechable, im pretty sure. Not certain though, im only basing that part off of my smash corner and something i vaguely remember reading.

The PP Bair isnt really all that difficult, i can do it rather consistently and im not even a MK main. Tyrant occasionally goes for it, as stated earlier (they backed it up with links too). Over time it will probably become even more common. It isnt used that often though because the difficulty makes the risk/reward ratio complicated.

If you know as much about meta knight as youre saying, you wouldn't have made so many plain false statements about him and his Dthrow combos.

"At low percents he only gets dash attack" wrong. Thats only on fast fallers or as a DI mix up. Its also a pretty bad option.

"At mid percents he only gets Usmash" also wrong. Usmash stops working after low %, its one of his weakest followups. Also at mid % he can do his latter combo.

Even if your #1 PR is a MK main, that doesn't mean youve watched them play and played against them hundreds of times like i have with mine.

Alternately to PP bair, at 15-35% MK can:
Dthrow > RAR Uair > FF bair > Dtilt x3 which is a much easier jab lock that does the same thing. Also you keep ignoring MK's latter combo, which Dthrow is a viable starter for. Even if it doesnt kill, it can net 35%+ damage. However, it has the potential to kill players off of a grab at as low as 25%. Kind of a big deal.

Now onto Lucas.
First off, only some characters can SDI out of the Nair reliably, second Lucas can follow the SDI. As for Taiheita, i have no idea how often he goes for the footstool (we should really stop calling it an infinite, it technically isnt). I dont watch him play but i find it hard to believe he never ever attempts it, but either way people play differently. I already told you the Lucas main in my region goes for it constantly and it works. To be fair, there are certainly characters who are immune to it.

If you arent counting MK or Lucas as S tier, I'd be interested to know what you think makes the other S tier characters so much better? ZSS is actually worse than MK and Lucas imo. And mario, although reliable and easy, cant combo at high % and is limited to escapable Utilt strings at low %.

Also the reason the person only got two footsools is because its not an infinite. The combo can only be repeated once or twice before theyre too high up to land on their backs for the jab lock.

Look, I'm honestly fine with Lucas being in S tier as long as Robin is also in S tier. Like I said, I think they're exactly as good as each other. Both have follow ups at a huge range of percents for putting on damage, and both have a kill confirm off of it. The main difference is that Lucas has better low percent combos for racking up damage, while Robin has a much easier and more reliable kill confirm. But since everyone seems so adamantly opposed to putting Robin in S tier, then Lucas shouldn't be either.

As for Meta Knight, the main thing that convinces me he shouldn't be S tier is the fact that dthrow becomes useless at even moderately high percents. It's good for putting on damage, but it's disappointing for setting up kills against characters not named Rosalina or Peach.

 

[MarshieMan]

Look, I'm honestly fine with Lucas being in S tier as long as Robin is also in S tier. Like I said, I think they're exactly as good as each other. Both have follow ups at a huge range of percents for putting on damage, and both have a kill confirm off of it. The main difference is that Lucas has better low percent combos for racking up damage, while Robin has a much easier and more reliable kill confirm. But since everyone seems so adamantly opposed to putting Robin in S tier, then Lucas shouldn't be either.

As for Meta Knight, the main thing that convinces me he shouldn't be S tier is the fact that dthrow becomes useless at even moderately high percents. It's good for putting on damage, but it's disappointing for setting up kills against characters not named Rosalina or Peach.

Ah i can honestly understand where youre coming from, and dont get me wrong, i think thats a reasonable deduction to make. I dont personally think Lucas's kill confirm is too difficult, because of the hitstun you can just react to your opponents DI. I also think that, as most of us have concluded, Robin's low% combo game is incredibly underwhelming. Theyre difficult to compare, but i think Lucas's ko confirm is close enough to robins, and Lucas's low % is superior enough to warrant a tiers worth of difference.

I think the main difference between how you and I view MK is that im seeing it from a potential standpoint, while youre seeing it from a reliability standpoint. I believe the potential to net a KO off of a grab at such low percents is a big deal, but i can certainly admit that its not a very common scenario, due to how difficult the combo is to achieve. The problem with MK's kill confirm off Dthrow is not the techskill required, however, but the ability to read and react to your opponents DI on the Uairs.

 

[Goombo]

Theres some special property to the bair that makes it untechable, im pretty sure. Not certain though, im only basing that part off of my smash corner and something i vaguely remember reading.

I'm really sure there is no mechanic like this, bair can always be teched.



What does Lucas do against SDIing his nair downwards? And before the theories arrive, are there videos of Lucas covering this option?

I'm also voting to make Robins dtrow S tier. Checkmate is too strong and dthrow to jab got kinda undervalued in this discussion.

 

[Litany]

I'm really sure there is no mechanic like this, bair can always be teched.



What does Lucas do against SDIing his nair downwards? And before the theories arrive, are there videos of Lucas covering this option?

I'm also voting to make Robins dtrow S tier. Checkmate is too strong and dthrow to jab got kinda undervalued in this discussion.

Robin's D-throw > Jab usually isn't true until about ~40%, and even then most characters can escape the 3rd hit with SDI. Granted, I still think that he could be S-tier.

 

[ARGHETH]

Robin's D-throw > Jab usually isn't true until about ~40%, and even then most characters can escape the 3rd hit with SDI. Granted, I still think that he could be S-tier.

Huh? Dthrow>Jab stops being true before 40.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Robin's D-throw > Jab usually isn't true until about ~40%, and even then most characters can escape the 3rd hit with SDI. Granted, I still think that he could be S-tier.

Untrue. Although there are a few characters that can escape Robin's jab at extremely low percents, I'm struggling to think of a character that could escape it past around 20%.

Also, dthrow to jab works from like 10% to 50% on most characters. For fastfallers it might be 20% to 60%. (These aren't exact numbers, by the way.)

 

[MarshieMan]

Im pretty sure zapp already stated the exact values on robins throw combos, and they were a lot worse than what you guys are saying.

And Dthrow > Jab, even if all 3 hits land, we're only talking 17% damage which isnt really S tier material. There are characters in C and D tier who can get that much from a grab

Of course we all know that checkmate is one of the best kill confirms, but if ROB is A tier, who has a slightly better confirm, then i dont know how i could justify Robin being S tier.

Also, to clarify something about ROB that everyone has disregarded thus far: ROB's only option after Dthrow is not just Uair. At low-mid percent he can get a Fair and possibly a second one but it isnt gauranteed (in the same way diddy Uthrow > Uair x2 isnt guaranteed, but still obviously very viable)

I'm struggling to think of a character that could escape it past around 20%.

Technically Bowser but thats just because of the weight dependency of the throw. I don't really count this because hes immune to a ton of weight dependent combos.

Edit: Im not certain of this, but what Zapp had said was that once the first jab becomes confirmed, the remaining jabs start becoming escapable after 15-20%

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Im pretty sure zapp already stated the exact values on robins throw combos, and they were a lot worse than what you guys are saying.

And Dthrow > Jab, even if all 3 hits land, we're only talking 17% damage which isnt really S tier material. There are characters in C and D tier who can get that much from a grab

Technically Bowser but thats just because of the weight dependency of the throw. I don't really count this because hes immune to a ton of weight dependent combos.

Edit: Im not certain of this, but what Zapp had said was that once the first jab becomes confirmed, the remaining jabs start becoming escapable after 15-20%

Characters that are at risk of a guaranteed Dthrow to jab for even a little while are not the norm, they're outliers. I can name far, far more characters that get a free hit on Robin at early percents - which by the way is an issue not even D tier throws have to deal with. Some (not all) fast fallers fit the bill because they're not airborne when they can act, and suffer hard landing lag (4 frames) before shield can come up. But, they need some damage first. at 0-7%, sheik can block the jab, then shield grab for a combo of her own. Ditto for Fox and Ganon, who need 15 and 18% before they stop blocking it. Falco only blocks until 5% making him probably the most at risk overall. Roy, Falcon, Little Mac, Mega Man, Donkey Kong and Dedede, are always airborne when they can act, so they double jump clean over or get their own hit in before Robin's Jab comes out. And greninja can shadow sneak cancel out and avoid everything until he enters tumble. It gets more damning as you move on to non fast fallers. Mewtwo and to a smaller extent Ness are at risk because they don't want to air dodge into the ground and their double jumps are awful for avoiding combos since they don't start ascending immediately. It's faster for Ness to Nair than to double jump, which will work at 0-5%.

Just using Mario as an example. Mario can get a free Nair on Robin until 20% when he starts trading against Robin's Jab. At this stage though he can still double jump to avoid followups entirely, as he could have earlier as well. Dthrow to Jab will not even connect until about 40, where he can jump out to avoid the rest of the combo after jab 1. From 40-62, Robin can guarantee single Utilt - that's a 12% combo. After this, Mario cannot be reached, and DI starts to make a difference. Aerials are not possible until about 80% when Mario stops air dodging or double jumping past.

My Mario example was meant to illustrate just how slow Robin's options are as the victim can act before he can at low percents. Weight dependency is only part of the equation. Jigglypuff is the lightest character, but even she is at no risk of jab by routinely jumping over. Robin can indeed jab more characters at around the 20-30 mark, but they will be so high that the jab combo will fail to link as they DI out after jab 1 and punish. Robin's better off with Utilt at this range because that can't be so easily avoided by just anybody, nor does it create an opportunity for Robin to become the victim of his own throw. It also doesn't work at very early percents, but unless he's fighting the fast fallers I mentioned above, it's all he's got until 80 or so when aerials start to work.

 

[MarshieMan]

^yeah this is what ive been trying to explain. I labbed it myself and had about the same results.

I think most people simply fall for Dthrow > Jab because they arent familiar with the MU and dont know their options.

 

[Funbot28]

Sorry for the lack of response, wanted to make an update but I did not want to intervene on good discussion. Will update tomorrow however so let out ur opinions now.

 

[Ilikebugs]

I like fried eggs more than scrambled eggs. Fox down throw has low percent combos and the potential to convert into a kill by reading the landing, so I think it should be in C.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

You're spouting all this theory, but I can tell you that it's all wrong in practice. Escaping dthrow to jab isn't common past around 20%. I have played thousands of matches as Robin, and it just doesn't happen very frequently. Even my dedicated training partner, who should know the Robin matchup like the back of his hand at this point, still pretty much never escapes dthrow to jab. Maybe all your theory is assuming superhuman SDI, or maybe your numbers come from training mode in which case they're completely irrelevant to actual matches. But regardless of why, your theory is still wrong.

 

[MarshieMan]

You're spouting all this theory, but I can tell you that it's all wrong in practice. Escaping dthrow to jab isn't common past around 20%. I have played thousands of matches as Robin, and it just doesn't happen very frequently. Even my dedicated training partner, who should know the Robin matchup like the back of his hand at this point, still pretty much never escapes dthrow to jab. Maybe all your theory is assuming superhuman SDI, or maybe your numbers come from training mode in which case they're completely irrelevant to actual matches. But regardless of why, your theory is still wrong.

When i tested all this with my training partner (i tested it two different sessions) i was able to escape the combos at around the predicted values. I was honestly surprised, because i too thought it was inescapable. It wasnt as good as the theoretical values predict, but thats probably just down to my imperfect escape skills.

-You said it yourself, the combo cant be avoided after 20%. Which means it can be avoided from 0%-20%. And the combo certainly wont work past 40% or so depending on weight. So you have a 17% combo that only works from 20%-40% that doesn't even contradict what Zapp has been saying.

-the jump to escape Dthrow > Jab can be buffered, which made it a lot easier. But escaping Jab 1 proved more difficult (yet still possible, to the predicted percents).

-even if all hits land, it only deals 17% damage without the possibility of further followups. Dthrow > Utilt is only 12% too..

-all in all, its just not very threatening to get grabbed low % by Robin. Even low tier Dthrows have better followups. And some throws have better or comparable raw damage to Robin's combos

-Once rage is in effect, Robin's combos work a lot better. Same against fast fallers. But thats the case for every throw combo so it isnt really valid

-if you think these numbers are the result of training mode inaccuracies, thats technically impossible. Training mode accurately calculates /hitstun/ except for attacks that deal low damage (.5%-1%), and thats only after around 50%. If you doubt it then you can use the hitstun calculator at kurogane hammer. I havent checked myself but im also confident in my labbing.

-Im not certain, but the jab may only have been escapable to the predicted values because the Robin did not input Jab 2 and 3 as fast as possible.

At this point, even if all the jabs are gauranteed, the throw is still not reasonably S tier. They simply aren't strong enough, even with the kill confirm being considered.

I think most people simply fall for Dthrow > Jab because they arent familiar with the MU and dont know their options.

What i mean by this is that some characters can only escape with a jump, others by shielding, and still others by using a fast attack. There are probably some who lack all these options, but i have yet to find one. There are still gauranteed % ranges for Dthrow > Jab, but its pretty limited.

 

[Nah]

we really need a Robin Dthrow thread that has a complete set of data from intensive testing for how it works =(

 

[MarshieMan]

we really need a Robin Dthrow thread that has a complete set of data from intensive testing for how it works =(

Intensive and unbiased.

I like fried eggs more than scrambled eggs. Fox down throw has low percent combos and the potential to convert into a kill by reading the landing, so I think it should be in C.

It doesnt have low percent combos with optimal DI, but it can frame trap certain fast fallers into an Utilt.

And you should never lose a stock to a fox reading a landing off of Dthrow. Your percent would have to be at least 80%-90% in order for Usmash to kill, in which case just DI up and away, and mash jump.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You're spouting all this theory, but I can tell you that it's all wrong in practice. Escaping dthrow to jab isn't common past around 20%. I have played thousands of matches as Robin, and it just doesn't happen very frequently. Even my dedicated training partner, who should know the Robin matchup like the back of his hand at this point, still pretty much never escapes dthrow to jab. Maybe all your theory is assuming superhuman SDI, or maybe your numbers come from training mode in which case they're completely irrelevant to actual matches. But regardless of why, your theory is still wrong.

All one needs is two controllers to test, and I could only recommend you'd try it if my words have no effect. In professional sectors it is call "peer review", and is never a sign of disrespect or denial. I also did not use DI, incidentally. When moves have such low knockback as Robin's Dthrow at low percent, DI has almost no observable effect.

I don't understand the animosity to training mode either, everybody that tests in this game uses it for consistent, repeatable data. VS mode has obstacles for accurate testing in the form of move stale negation and rage, and the handicap functionality causes frequent resets when training mode allows for switching % on the fly. Slowing down time also allows for consistently buffered inputs for greater accuracy, and is handy when you're trying to work two controllers with your two hands. The very idea of doing testing in VS mode, always asking a little sister "are you sure you were pressing Y?", ludicrous. Doing tests for move stale negation and rage is the extra credit assignment that tells you what you already knew - rage makes things happen sooner, staling makes things happen later.

 

[MarshieMan]

^to add to this, people need to stop referencing the fact that fast fallers are more susceptible to combos. We all know it, its the same for every combo ever.

Also, do your testing on mario or pit? Please. People always test on sheik or something and then say "See?! Its a true combo!" Or to exaggerate percent ranges.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

^to add to this, people need to stop referencing the fact that fast fallers are more susceptible to combos. We all know it, its the same for every combo ever.

Also, do your testing on mario or pit? Please. People always test on sheik or something and then say "See?! Its a true combo!" Or to exaggerate percent ranges.

Actually the best target for inflated combo range results is usually Donkey Kong when looking at vertical combos. Second heaviest, falls much faster than Bowser, frame 4 air dodge, and has the largest hurtbox - particularly when launched. Only with weight based throws is sheik the go to. You want those falling stats combined with near to lowest endlag from the throw. Testing with these character is important for "best case scenario" in data threads but if you want a more broad case go with Mario. He's not heavy or light, his fall speed isn't too drastic, and he's fairly short. If you can get something to connect on him, it stands to reason you can get that to work on the majority of the cast without making the effort to check them all

I like fried eggs more than scrambled eggs.

...fried freak.

 

[MarshieMan]

Actually the best target for inflated combo range results is usually Donkey Kong when looking at vertical combos. Second heaviest, falls much faster than Bowser, frame 4 air dodge, and has the largest hurtbox - particularly when launched. Only with weight based throws is sheik the go to. You want those falling stats combined with near to lowest endlag from the throw. Testing with these character is important for "best case scenario" in data threads but if you want a more broad case go with Mario. He's not heavy or light, his fall speed isn't too drastic, and he's fairly short. If you can get something to connect on him, it stands to reason you can get that to work on the majority of the cast without making the effort to check them all


...fried freak.

I was saying that people test it with sheik, then act like its the same for every character.

I typically use DK or Dedede for testing best case on non weight dependent throws.


Also i just tested Robin's Dthrow > Jab on mario again. It was completely escapable at every percent from 0%-60% simply by mashing jump.

@Hypnotoad, i strongly urge you to do some testing on this. Youll easily see that the combo is no doubt, completely escapable, including the 2nd and 3rd jabs. It isnt even as difficult as i originally thought.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

**** it, I'm done with this. You can keep thinking that Lucas and Meta Knight and Zelda have better dthrows than Robin despite all of them having awful, unreliable kill confirms off of dthrow and just as mediocre low percent combos as Robin does. Put Robin in F tier, I don't even care anymore. I'll be over here successfully doing dthrow to jab almost every time and then killing you at 80% with dthrow to uair, something that Lucas and Zelda WISH they could do reliably. I'll be back once we start discussing something about which you guys actually know what you're saying.

 

[Tito Maas]

Is all the discussion for these rankings held in this thread? I would like to see the discussion for FThrow, DAir, and NAir

 

[arbustopachon]

Is all the discussion for these rankings held in this thread? I would like to see the discussion for FThrow, DAir, and NAir

Yes, yes it is. f-throw was the previous throw discussed and the aerials where the first moves discussed.

 

[IamTM21]

I'm not sure why neutral air is being used as Lucas's main down throw follow up. Foward and up air sometimes even back air are more reliable in most situations. Down through really should be S for Lucas, it's useful at almost any percent and leads to kill options later. It is Lucas's saving grace in many ways.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

**** it, I'm done with this. You can keep thinking that Lucas and Meta Knight and Zelda have better dthrows than Robin despite all of them having awful, unreliable kill confirms off of dthrow and just as mediocre low percent combos as Robin does. Put Robin in F tier, I don't even care anymore. I'll be over here successfully doing dthrow to jab almost every time and then killing you at 80% with dthrow to uair, something that Lucas and Zelda WISH they could do reliably. I'll be back once we start discussing something about which you guys actually know what you're saying.

Chill m8

Robin's dthrow rank has been explained multiple times, so has every other notable dthrow. This ranking isn't based solely on your opinion either, its based on the collective opinion of everyone in this threads.

 

[ARGHETH]

So...are we (almost) all agreeing on Robin's staying in A?

 

[Masonomace]

↑ this.

Also just to say as a reminder, these tier lists don't have to be perfect / correct the first time. I'm sure a redo-of discussion will be necessary for move-sets simply because overlooks and lack of reason for attacks will happen. So lets just get through the preliminary round if you wanna call it that. And now with that said, lets talk about smash attacks or finish specials! Tbh though, pummel, standing grab, dash grab, pivot grab, ledge attack, floor attack, & final smash .

 

[JosePollo]

What does Lucas do against SDIing his nair downwards? And before the theories arrive, are there videos of Lucas covering this option?

I usually nair first after down throw to see if my opponent knows to SDI it downwards, since there's really not much Lucas can do about it. If they don't know to SDI it I'm free to go for 30%+ damage combos (footstool is infinitely easier after nair), but if they SDI it properly (because there's wrong ways to SDI his nair) I'll go for up air instead for the free 13% and cover their landing afterwards.

Also, Lucas is probably the only character in the game that can close a stock reliably by getting a grab at 50%. If you grab someone facing the ledge down throw to back air is a kill confirm. If you're too far from the ledge you can do sour spot back air first and still confirm into meteor back air off-stage for the kill. It's a small percent range at which it works, but the fact that he can do that at all is amazing and it's surprising that more high-level Lucas players don't take advantage of it aside from Taiheita.

PK Hoo Hah is probably a top 5 kill confirm.

 

[MarshieMan]

Id say we're about done with this discussion. Robin at A tier is perfect.

And PSA, if you struggle with Dthrow > Jab, research your options.

And to add what JosePollo said, Lucas Dthrow > Dair is another solid option

 

[ARGHETH]

And now with that said, lets talk about smash attacks or finish specials! Tbh though, pummel, standing grab, dash grab, pivot grab, ledge attack, floor attack, & final smash .

But Bthrow...