Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Poisonous]

Wario's bthrow is pretty mediocre, it generally won't kill you until past 160 unless you have rage. With enough rage, it can kill pretty early, stronger than fthrow until ~105% due to having a higher BKB. Obviously all kill throws get stronger with rage though. Like the plumber brothers, the bthrow animation creates a hit which is notable in the Rosa MU as it murders Luma, seemingly sending Luma further than the other plumber's bthrows. Probably a B tier throw.

 

[Galaxeon]

S-tier : (own tier)
A tier : b-throws good at killing pretty consistantly : from to around
B tier : b-throws that can sometimes kill but mainly with rage for example, or just not as effectively : , as well as some b-throw with combo potential : come to my mind, maybe others
C tier : basic b-throw. Positionning or damage only, maybe some killing potential in rare cases. Angle and damage taken into account.
D tier : poor, below average (meaning not really useful besides gaining stage control) b-throws.
F tier (if needed) : really useless throws

 

[JayE]

Ike's back throw is pretty good and underrated. Cloud's back throw too

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's back throw is pretty good and underrated. Cloud's back throw too

Its.... not good. It has a good angle for getting people off stage, it has the same stats as Fthrow for double set ups. Beyond that? 4% damage, no combos, no forced tech chase situations, fairly bleh knockback (which again, handy in doubles with the angle/Fthrow stuff, not so much in singles).

Cloud's deals less damage (3%), more knockback growth (not enough to matter), higher (worse) angle. Nothing good about it.

 

[BunbUn129]

Ike's back throw does 7% total, actually. while Cloud's does 6% total. You're thinking about the second hit of both throws.

Not saying I disagree with your point, just correcting that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ah for some reason I thought that was the range of damage between fresh and stale on Kurogane.

Slightly better than I was thinking, still not great. Almost never use those throws outside of doubles.

 

[JayE]

Its.... not good. It has a good angle for getting people off stage, it has the same stats as Fthrow for double set ups. Beyond that? 4% damage, no combos, no forced tech chase situations, fairly bleh knockback (which again, handy in doubles with the angle/Fthrow stuff, not so much in singles).

Cloud's deals less damage (3%), more knockback growth (not enough to matter), higher (worse) angle. Nothing good about it.

Its not the best throw in the game, and obviously its not a combo throw, but it doesn't make it terrible. Its quick and can even lead to a dash attack mixup. Nairo and Tweek said that Ike and Cloud's back throw are good, I asked them if its good or not in their opinion on stream. Thats what I think.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Reposting Bthrow data for new page of thread:

Spoiler: Bthrow data and kill % with optimal DI

All Bthrows were performed on Mario in Training Mode FD at the very edge of the stage. Mario is always DIing horizontally back to the stage, and continues to hold toward it to avoid physically touching the blastzone. Mario does NOT double jump to hurtbox shuffle. Assume a 1% margin of error on kill %s. Order is Bthrow Damage (damage of launching hit)/BKB/KBG/KB Angle/Kill %.

11/15/130/45/94
(max aura) 17/50/60/40/112
(smash art) 6(4.5)/NA/NA/45/120
10/80/65/41/121
11/15/110/45/123
10/70/75/47/124
7/60/120/50/129
11/60/65/40/130
(150% worth of aura) ~14/50/60/40/132
11/80/60/45/133
11/70/66/45/134
10/80/65/45/134
11(9)/35/95/40/134
12/60/66/45/135
12.32/70/60/45/135
9(4)/60/130/45/140
(deep breathing) 10.8(7.2)/90/65/45/141
11/85/60/52/145
11/70/63/45/145
8/30/120/50/146
7/70/79/40/146
(laser hit) 9(6+3)/80+60/60+80/35+50/147
12/50/65/45/148
11/70/61/45/148
12/60/55/42/151
9(5)/42/130/45/152
10/60/65/45/153
10/65/70/45/154
(blue) 14.4/50/60/45/156
10(5)/30/130/43/159
10(3)/60/140/45/163
10/60/65/45/164
(100% worth of aura) ~11/50/60/40/165
9(6)/90/65/45/165
(no art) 12(9)/70/63/45/167
11/70/60/50/170
(speed art) 9.6(7.2)/NA/NA/45/172
(shield art) 8.4(6.3)/NA/NA/45/172
7/80/60/45/173
(victim DI's slight up and toward to avoid laser) 6/80/60/35/~176
13/60/79/60/179
(no laser hit) 6/80/60/35/185
(laser hit) 5(3)/80+56/20+160/45+40/186
6(3)/60/130/45/187
9/85/50/45/194
8/65/60/45/199
8/55/60/40/205
6(3)/48/110/38/212
12/75/45/52/218
8/60/55/40/221
9(6)/80/60/45/222
7(4)/50/110/50/224
7(4)/55/75/28/224
7/55/66/45/229
9/62/50/45/236
(yellow, white, purple) 9/50/60/45/245
(no aura) 6.6/50/60/40/278
4/80/60/40/279
7(5)/70/60/45/279
(red) 7.2/50/60/45/295

300+ Mr. G&W, Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Jigglypuff, Roy, Corrin, Mii Gunner (victim Dis up to avoid laser), Shulk (buster art)

The reason Shulk has NA on Art knockback values is that changes in knockback due to different Arts derive from values that are at least unknown to me. With Falco, the no laser hit is just the victim reaching the blastzone before the laser connects. In other words, it's the kill percent for the initial throw exclusively.

Edit: also we need to determine how to rank Zard, Sheik, and ZSS, who are the only characters with notable combos off of Bthrow.

Metaknight as well. Bthrow into Dash attack at 0%, which starts a combo. It depends on no DI or DI toward, but DI toward for Bthrow happens to be DI away for Fthrow and Dthrow, so it's a mixup. Using it over Dthrow or a dashing Fthrow is still a hard sell, however. As for sheik, that's nice work labbing Bthrow to Bouncing Fish. All of Sheik's throws are combo throws, and it's easy to consider Bthrow as the weakest link. Possessing both a worse angle than Fthrow, and more endlag.

Nairo and Tweek said that Ike and Cloud's back throw are good, I asked them if its good or not in their opinion on stream.

What a bizarre question to ask on stream. I don't suppose they gave a reason? Neither kill at a reasonable percent, nor deal damage that stands up to most of the cast comparatively.

Zard's b-throw deals 10% and is a combo throw at low percents due to it's stupidly low endlag, it is a weight dependent throw tho.

It is weight dependent, but endlag is virtually unaffected. The endlag for throwing Jigglypuff is 2, while throwing Bowser is 3. Normally weight dependent throws have endlag differentiation of 10-12, sometimes more, sometimes less. Never as low as 1. I think Charizard's Bthrow is by far the most impressive of Bthrows that have any true combo potential (yes all four of them), and Charizard can really use that application to make it relevant since both his Bthrow and Fthrow fail to kill as early as Uthrow, at least on FD's dimensions and lack of platforms. From the sound of where people want to split A and B tier, Charizard's kill % will probably place him in B, but I would bring it up to A because the combos that do exist are heavy damage and also a DI mixup with Dthrow combos. Probably the only Bthrow that warrants a tier increase unless you really value ZSS Bthrow to Dash attack, which is suboptimal to Dthrow combos.

 

[JayE]

How is that a bizarre? Its normal for them to discuss things about smash. They were talking about back throws, so I wanted to know if they too thought that Cloud's back throw was good, and they said "Yeah Cloud's back throw is like Ike's, its pretty good." Its not amazing, but not terrible.
All I'm saying its that its not a bad throw.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Lol, that dthrow list is such a joke.

Anyway, Robin's bthrow is okay. It can kill at ~140% at the ledge, and with rage it can kill at ~120%, which isn't too shabby for a kill throw. It's a nice alternative for killing if your opponent has passed the checkmate range. Probably B tier, maybe A depending on how the tiers are organized.

Rosa's is awful. No follow ups and doesn't kill until like 190%. Throw it into D tier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

How is that a bizarre? Its normal for them to discuss things about smash. They were talking about back throws, so I wanted to know if they too thought that Cloud's back throw was good, and they said "Yeah Cloud's back throw is like Ike's, its pretty good." Its not amazing, but not terrible.
All I'm saying its that its not a bad throw.

They're not good Bthrows. Just because some high level players randomly claimed as much when randomly asked doesn't make it so (particularly when one of them is arguably the 2nd best Cloud in NA so of course he's going to think pretty much all of Cloud's moveset is good. Their Bthrows are funcational, that's a far cry from good)

Go watch any high level Ike game plays. Count the number of times you see Bthrow. I'll be shocked if you get beyond one hand in a entire set. The only time you ever use it is if you grab somebody and you want to kill them, but your back is facing the stage edge. It does not "mix up" with Dash Attack. Its not a mixup when there's literally only one option you can even reasonably attempt and anybody worth their salt is going to expect.

In singles, Bthrow is good for tossing off stage when close to the edge due to its angle. Nothing more. Every other situation, you land a grab, you're using Dthrow or Uthrow.

 

[JayE]

They're not good Bthrows. Just because some high level players randomly claimed as much when randomly asked doesn't make it so (particularly when one of them is arguably the 2nd best Cloud in NA so of course he's going to think pretty much all of Cloud's moveset is good. Their Bthrows are funcational, that's a far cry from good)

Go watch any high level Ike game plays. Count the number of times you see Bthrow. I'll be shocked if you get beyond one hand in a entire set. The only time you ever use it is if you grab somebody and you want to kill them, but your back is facing the stage edge. It does not "mix up" with Dash Attack. Its not a mixup when there's literally only one option you can even reasonably attempt and anybody worth their salt is going to expect.

In singles, Bthrow is good for tossing off stage when close to the edge due to its angle. Nothing more. Every other situation, you land a grab, you're using Dthrow or Uthrow.

ok. whatever you say. To each their own

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Ike and Cloud do not have good bthrows at all.

Also, now that I think about it, Rosa could be C tier just because of how many even worse bthrows there are. It at least kills before 200%, which is more than a lot of other bthrows can say about themselves.

 

[Deleted member]

's back throw is pretty good. Deals a nice 12% in vanilla and sets up for edgeguards well. Buster bthrow does a whopping 17%. Doing two pummels then back throw in Buster Art means that you just got 25% off a grab. That's pretty damn insane. Smash bthrow also happens to be one of the strongest bthrows in the game.

 

[MarshieMan]

Shulk is an easy A tier pick. But it doesn't quite feel fair putting him on the same tier as the likes of mario and Cap.

 

[Nah]

I mean, when I was envisioning a Bthrow tier list it was like:

D: Bthrows that have no real kill or combo potential, offer the usual damage and positional advantage all throws do ()
C: Bthrows that make for halfway decent stock caps ()
B&A: Bthrows that are better at killing that the ones in C, and/or offer combo potential ([smash])
S:

 

[Routa]

As for Miis... Well they don't have that great of a B-Throws. Damage wise they are bad. Gunner's deals 5% if you get both hits (which is unlikely), Swordspider's deals 6% and Brawler's deals 7.

Brawler should only go for B-throw if he needs to charge UU (but he doesn't have that in 1111 form so...). He pretty much gets nothing off from his B-throw. D tier throw pretty much.
Swordspider is the same thing pretty much. B-Throw is only positional throw, but getting foe off-stage is very good thing for Swordspider due to his really good edgeguarding game and ledgeguarding game (but this is when he has other Up-B than 1 and Chakram). Still the throw and its uses are kinda Ech. I would say C or D tier throw.
The Gunner part is weird. The throw itself has very low damage, has no follow ups and lacks killpower. But what it does it gives Gunner the most important thing for him: Stage Control. His edgeguarding game is no joke (even in 1111 form) and charging that shot is always a good thing for Gunner. But yeah the throw itself isn't that great, but it is not bad when you look which character has it. I would put it in C or D tier depending what other chars are in thous tiers.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Imo, the tiers should probably be ordered something like this.

S: Ebola
A: Kills before 130%
B: Kills before 150%
C: Kills before 200%
D: Useless

 

[Molk]

Absolutely nobody is going to believe this until they read through the entire post, but something that's been known by a few people in the G&W community is that Fthrow and Bthrow might actually have situational use in some matchups (yes) as combo throws to use as a DI mixup at lower percentages. As a specific example, imagine that you're using G&W and your opponent is using Fox, over the course of a game, you realize that the Fox is consistently DIing Dthrow away from you, keeping that in mind, on the next stock, you get a grab on Fox at a very low percent (for example, literally 0%), knowing that the Fox is going to habitually DI away, instead of going for Uthrow or Dthrow, you go for Bthrow as a mixup, resulting in them doing the equivalent of DIing Bthrow in. In this scenario, it's possible for G&W to get two Nairs and an Up B off on Fox, which outdamages any guaranteed combo off of Uthrow or Dthrow at that percent. The same applies to Fthrow and someone who consistently DIs into G&W, as Fthrow and Bthrow are identical in everything outside of which side they end up on after the throw is completed. In all honesty, this hasn't been explored *too* much, but i can confirm that this works on at the very least Fox (in fact, i just double checked myself), and maybe other characters with similar physics.

Credit to my good friend Seraph from the G&W discord for discovering this a while back, although a lot of people forget it's a thing, heh.

 

[JosePollo]

Not sure how much doubles is being considered for the usefulness of throws here (and it should be considered, in my opinion), but Mario's back throw is at least A-tier in doubles. The collateral hitbox while he's spinning his target makes it almost impossible to punish, not to mention it becomes a kill throw at high percents. Even in singles it has the niche of consistently getting rid of Luma for the Rosalina match-up. 11% damage is not bad, either.

 

[TDK]

Link's Back Throw does exactly one thing (And note that I haven't tested this throughly yet, I'm working on it): If you throw the Boomerang down so it bounces on the ground and goes up, bthrow might be able to hit your opponent into the windbox of boomerang, which would send them back into whatever punish you please.

I have gotten this once, but I'm not sure if DI was a factor or not. If I can make it work consistently I'll tell you, but other than that it's a D tier throw.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Bthrow is a good space clearer at very low percents if you just want to get a Thunder loaded up, the last bit of Elwind used up, or get a discard out, and is an alternative for those whom Dthrow combos are very frame tight to get. Being a stock cap throw at 170 on Battlefield with an angle that mitigates upwards DI is also useful.

A Bthrow that automatically resets neutral for Robin to restart his zoning and kill as a last measure. Should be in the upper echelon of Bthrows just for doing what it does decently enough, nothing truly extravagant about it.

Plus it just looks snazzy as hell. <3

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Bthrow is a good space clearer at very low percents if you just want to get a Thunder loaded up, the last bit of Elwind used up, or get a discard out, and is an alternative for those whom Dthrow combos are very frame tight to get. Being a stock cap throw at 170 on Battlefield with an angle that mitigates upwards DI is also useful.

A Bthrow that automatically resets neutral for Robin to restart his zoning and kill as a last measure. Should be in the upper echelon of Bthrows just for doing what it does decently enough, nothing truly extravagant about it.

Plus it just looks snazzy as hell. <3

Bthrow definitely kills earlier than 170% unless you're on the opposite end of the stage and/or have no rage at all. At the ledge, it probably averages somewhere around 140% or 150%.

 

[masato]

b-throw is bad. no combo potential and no kill potential (at the percents it kills from the ledge, d-throw kills from anywhere on the stage), and is only useful for getting the opponent off stage. definitely D tier

 

[bc1910]

b-throw is bad. no combo potential and no kill potential (at the percents it kills from the ledge, d-throw kills from anywhere on the stage), and is only useful for getting the opponent off stage. definitely D tier

Replace Bayo with Greninja and Dthrow with Uthrow, everything else still applies.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Bthrow definitely kills earlier than 170% unless you're on the opposite end of the stage and/or have no rage at all. At the ledge, it probably averages somewhere around 140% or 150%.

That's how I attribute stock caps. I don't really consider it a "cap" until it satisfies the most extreme of conditions.

Bthrow will kill on average at 145. It will absolutely kill at 170%.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Roy's back throw can go straight to D. I've only found one use for this, and it's to read a jump for an up air. Other than that? Garbage.

B tier is a good place Mewtwo's back throw. It kills semi-reliably, and it does 11%, which is pretty good for a throw. It looks cool, too.

Rosalina's back throw is a little bit above average. It can combo into forward air and up air upwards to about 20%, and it kills at extreme percents. It doesn't really do much during the grey area in between, though, but I think it does good enough damage to warrant a spot in B tier.

Jigglypuff's back throw has one use and one use only: edgeguarding. That said though, 10% isn't bad for such a throw, so C tier.

 

[apparently fuz]

ZSS has a decent back throw, synergises pretty well with her kit. Damage isn't too great at 8%, but good for the DI in mixup for the d-throw. If I'm not mistaken b-throw > bair combos 'till pretty late on DI in, haven't tested it at all though. Could pull some numbers later. Oh and b-throw also serves for great for ZSS' ledge trapping/edgeguarding game as her options are decent onstage but incredible off.

 

[Airpoizon]

has literally one of the worst b throws in the game, measly 5%, no kill power, no follow ups. It's really only good for setting up reads. This throw is F tier. Maybe E, but even that's a stretch.

 

[MarioMeteor]

How many tiers are there? I was under the impression that it ended at D.

 

[MarshieMan]

How many tiers are there? I was under the impression that it ended at D.

Im pretty sure youre correct, at least for the Bthrow list

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike/Cloud B-throws are exponentially better in doubles (like A tier minimum good) when any teammate can follow up with a ground move off of them consistently. Singles they're meh, but I believe they deserve special mention for their utility in teams.

 

[MarshieMan]

I personally dont think moves should deserve special mentioning for being good in doubles. We havent done so thus far, and tier lists are supposed to be limited to one rules format, singles in this case.

Edit: furthermore, it simply makes ranking moves much more complicated when we're considering doubles. Even looking back we would have to redo almost every list if we start taking doubles into consideration. And looking forward it just means a bunch more variables that we cant adequatley take into consideration.

 

[jet56]

Oh are we still on Bthrow? thought we would be done with this one pretty fast, since it's mostly does it kill or not.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh are we still on Bthrow? thought we would be done with this one pretty fast, since it's mostly does it kill or not.

Combo back throws exist.

But they're in this weird position where ranking them is hard.

 

[LRodC]

I have no input on anything else, I just think Mewtwo's should stay in A.

 

[MarshieMan]

Personally i think we should simply rank character's in descending order off of the kill stats Zapp provided, then +1 to Zard and MK. Sheik and ZSS dont have reliable enough combos to merit a higher tier.

Also, i dont want people saying "but but but positioning!!1!". We've said it before, all throws provide a positioning advantage in the same way. We arent judging throws based off of how good that character can edgeguard, thats too much of a jump.

 

[Masonomace]

But don't Sakurai Angle Bthrows like Zard & Palu have different results whether or not you Bthrow from the ground or dangling at the end of the ledge? Idk actually.

 

[MarshieMan]

But don't Sakurai Angle Bthrows like Zard & Palu have different results whether or not you Bthrow from the ground or dangling at the end of the ledge? Idk actually.

Nope, we already tested. All character's are treated as airborne while being held

 

[Funbot28]

Srry I am late, here is the preliminary list to B-Throw:

Spoiler: Back-Throw