Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[TDK]

Can someone fill me in on how Little Mac and Wii Fit Trainer's manages to be B when Peach and Robin's aren't?

 

[LRodC]

A couple issues:

Why is Luigi in A, Mario in B, and Doc in C when all have very similar back throws? I say put them all in B and call it a day.

Falco's back throw is better than Fox's.

 

[DunnoBro]

Mario and Doc have the same bthrows... Luigi's is weaker. (both on throw knockback and swing knockback)

b-throw is bad. no combo potential and no kill potential (at the percents it kills from the ledge, d-throw kills from anywhere on the stage), and is only useful for getting the opponent off stage. definitely D tier

Bthrow is a pure edgeguard throw. It sets up for bullet climax better than f/dthrow and Bayo has a long flowchart of potential edgeguards from bthrow. It's definitely fine.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Can someone fill me in on how Little Mac and Wii Fit Trainer's manages to be B when Peach and Robin's aren't?

It's definitely at odds with the data.

Reposting Bthrow data for new page of thread:

Spoiler: Bthrow data and kill % with optimal DI

All Bthrows were performed on Mario in Training Mode FD at the very edge of the stage. Mario is always DIing horizontally back to the stage, and continues to hold toward it to avoid physically touching the blastzone. Mario does NOT double jump to hurtbox shuffle. Assume a 1% margin of error on kill %s. Order is Bthrow Damage (damage of launching hit)/BKB/KBG/KB Angle/Kill %.

11/15/130/45/94
(max aura) 17/50/60/40/112
(smash art) 6(4.5)/NA/NA/45/120
10/80/65/41/121
11/15/110/45/123
10/70/75/47/124
7/60/120/50/129
11/60/65/40/130
(150% worth of aura) ~14/50/60/40/132
11/80/60/45/133
11/70/66/45/134
10/80/65/45/134
11(9)/35/95/40/134
12/60/66/45/135
12.32/70/60/45/135
9(4)/60/130/45/140
(deep breathing) 10.8(7.2)/90/65/45/141
11/85/60/52/145
11/70/63/45/145
8/30/120/50/146
7/70/79/40/146
(laser hit) 9(6+3)/80+60/60+80/35+50/147
12/50/65/45/148
11/70/61/45/148
12/60/55/42/151
9(5)/42/130/45/152
10/60/65/45/153
10/65/70/45/154
(blue) 14.4/50/60/45/156
10(5)/30/130/43/159
10(3)/60/140/45/163
10/60/65/45/164
(100% worth of aura) ~11/50/60/40/165
9(6)/90/65/45/165
(no art) 12(9)/70/63/45/167
11/70/60/50/170
(speed art) 9.6(7.2)/NA/NA/45/172
(shield art) 8.4(6.3)/NA/NA/45/172
7/80/60/45/173
(victim DI's slight up and toward to avoid laser) 6/80/60/35/~176
13/60/79/60/179
(no laser hit) 6/80/60/35/185
(laser hit) 5(3)/80+56/20+160/45+40/186
6(3)/60/130/45/187
9/85/50/45/194
8/65/60/45/199
8/55/60/40/205
6(3)/48/110/38/212
12/75/45/52/218
8/60/55/40/221
9(6)/80/60/45/222
7(4)/50/110/50/224
7(4)/55/75/28/224
7/55/66/45/229
9/62/50/45/236
(yellow, white, purple) 9/50/60/45/245
(no aura) 6.6/50/60/40/278
4/80/60/40/279
7(5)/70/60/45/279
(red) 7.2/50/60/45/295

300+ Mr. G&W, Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Jigglypuff, Roy, Corrin, Mii Gunner (victim Dis up to avoid laser), Shulk (buster art)

The reason Shulk has NA on Art knockback values is that changes in knockback due to different Arts derive from values that are at least unknown to me. With Falco, the no laser hit is just the victim reaching the blastzone before the laser connects. In other words, it's the kill percent for the initial throw exclusively.

Other additions to the B tier based on the Bthrow data would be Palutena, Bowser jr, Pac Man, Dedede, ROB, and Doc. In fact, seeing Doc, Mario, and Luigi in three separate tiers is extremely bizarre as they are functionally the same besides a slight damage difference. And if damage were the deal breaker, it would be Doc on top and Luigi at the bottom. Put them all in B. Some say the ability to hit other players in doubles with the victim is good, but also true for your team mate. And mostly a liability since the throw takes a full second to complete - enough time for your second opponent to approach safely for a guaranteed punish. The throw is somewhat more of a con than a pro for doubles in my eyes, and I don't care much for considering doubles anyway for this discussion. The only reason doubles came up is because there's nothing else to talk about with these throws.

Also, we don't need F tier. Bring Roy up. Heck, I think i'd prefer it over Marth/Lucina's just for the added 1% damage. And once some characters mentioned above are moved out of C, you're left with a C and D tier of moves that aren't viable for killing and have really small differences worth mention. If I had to pick a new distinction, probably base it on damage. Like Ryu's 12% bthrow. Plus the paltry combo potential of Sheik and ZSS. And how Falco's is a viable kill throw if they don't know how to DI the laser. Lucario probably deserves B. Yes it has no virtually no potential to kill at low aura, but that's true of his entire moveset. And this throw scales wonderfully in knockback and damage. At just 100% worth of aura, he reaches the B range. Shulk also needs to move up. B is my pick since you shouldn't be spending more than six seconds in Smash Art per stock, if ever. Nor using it to aggressively fish for grabs, that's a speed and buster thing.

 

[Masonomace]

Shulk Bthrow not being in B or A (mostly B) is crazy. A throw that is dominant in stage control, deals 17.64% fresh / 16.8% in training mode, & is a very formidable kill, is very handy to have on the go.

Doubles-talk, or even extra utility-talk in Singles, Bthrows that launch characters facing away towards the blastline can ruin some character's recovery options / patterns & setup unique followups in Doubles. These characters with said special throw property out of the best kill throws are:


Ness obviously kills earliest. Shulk can string Backslash after. Sonic moves a good distance from start to land. Etc..

 

[arbustopachon]

Does falcon get any combos out of d-throw? if not i think he should either drop or everyone that kills before him should go up.

Also DK should definetely go up, specially if we are keeping falcon there.

Oh also Peach should go up, she kills roughly at the same percents as Luigi while also dealing more damage.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I agree that Dr. Mario & Shulk should go in B due the amount of use they get out of them.
I also think Pacman should go in B since it's basically Mario's Back-Throw & Duck Hunt in B because they can throw people into can set-ups. Not to mention DH can still control the can while holding an opponent.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The division between A and B tier needs to be better defined. I would have put the threshold before Captain Falcon. 5% isn't too large of a distinction, but his Bthrow does have pretty poor scaling. Good KB growth, but only offsets the fact that you launch them with a 4% hit. At further distances from the ledge, it will fall more in line with later Bthrows like Robin and Mega Man. And Sonic I would probably put in A at that point since the throw naturally takes you closer to the blastzone if you're not already at the ledge which is pretty unique

Duck Hunt in B because they can throw people into can set-ups. Not to mention DH can still control the can while holding an opponent.

Duck Hunt can control the can at all times, even during hitlag and hitstun. Obviously throws can lead into the can but that's just one possibility that's not unique to grabbing and throwing. It's there when you dodge, attack, recover, get stunned or buried, and when you taunt. So we shouldn't elevate just throws when the can will come up for Neutral B discussion.

In fact, I think I'd rank the can as the second best neutral B. Though it's a distant second behind Shulk's Monado Arts. It's even got applications when the can isn't currently out as a frame 1 combo breaker.

Bthrows that launch characters facing away towards the blastline can ruin some character's recovery options / patterns & setup unique followups in Doubles. These characters with said special throw property out of the best kill throws are:

There are only two moves in the game among thousands that take into account what way the victim is facing, Shulk's Backslash, and Mewtwo's Disable, so it's really questionable to call this a utility for anybody but those two. Having to recover while facing away from the ledge would be a nightmare in previous games, but not Smash 4. You can always grab the ledge while facing away from it and you can always B-reverse (bad) recovery moves that don't grab from behind or have more generous ledge snap windows in front.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Why the hell is Robin's bthrow in C tier when it's just as good as or better than many of the B tier throws? You've got Little Mac, Ganondorf, Kirby, Sonic and Wario in B tier even though Robin's is objectively better than all of them (killing slightly earlier and doing more damage). It's also exactly equal to Megaman's (same kill percent and same damage), but Megaman is in B and Robin is in C. Move Robin up to B.

And while you're at it, move Shulk up to B and Ike down to D.

 

[Masonomace]

There are only two moves in the game among thousands that take into account what way the victim is facing, Shulk's Backslash, and Mewtwo's Disable, so it's really questionable to call this a utility for anybody but those two. Having to recover while facing away from the ledge would be a nightmare in previous games, but not Smash 4. You can always grab the ledge while facing away from it and you can always B-reverse (bad) recovery moves that don't grab from behind or have more generous ledge snap windows in front.

You're quite right. That last point about unique followups does have very little to no merit in the grand ranking scheme, but to Shulk in Doubles, it can mean a lot as a very early kill. Hypothetically speaking with some stretching, a Ness Bthrow from far-wide ledge towards Shulk on the other ledge side doing Backslash towards blastline is a solid kill at an early percent for death, but that's the most extreme-best-case scenario simulation I could suggest for a delicious moment for now. The other point being the ability of ruining recovery options / patterns however, this has more merit especially in a good amount of match-ups.

Example: Any of these characters , they can Bthrow Corrin or R.O.B. to prevent them from using their Bair as an extra recovery boost. This kind of Bthrow also forces a limited situation for characters who cannot safely turnaround to face the stage upon recovering, making them rely on their Bair, other aerial that has a hitbox covering / protecting them from behind, use a mixup / recovery mixup move that commits, or their Up-B. Most Bairs in Neutral & Advantage are great n stuff, but Bairs from the victim recovering in the Disadvantage won't be as safe to attempt challenging said character edge-guarding. The thing with using a character's Up-B could lead to a chance that they mis-input or mis-time the pivot and or B-reversal to their recovery & not properly use it correctly thus messing up by a slim chance & SD'ing (this sentence's point is a stretch, but it does happen). Characters like Marth who can turnaround with his Bair or use Dancing Blade Hit 1 can revert that pressure problem very easily, but a good amount of characters don't have this luxury so the majority are to be careful of this setback. Unless you're a character like Donkey Kong, 'cus that Bair is delicious!

 

[Myollnir]

Robin's B-Throw is not "objectively better" than Kirby's B-Throw. It true comboes into B-air at low % on a lot of characters. B-Throw U-air B-air is even a thing on some floaty characters. And it's a decent killthrow. It has NO lag, allowing you to HUP cancel immediatly to follow your opponent, and you can't punish it in doubles. It's probably A-tier.

 

[Nah]

I would think that rather than move Robin's Bthrow up to B, move some others in B down. Like unless I missed some part of the conversation earlier, I'm pretty sure that Mac and WFT Bthrows are not B tier material, to name a few.

Also going to echo that it's unnecessary to have Roy by himself in F, move him up to D.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Actually, I guess you could move Little Mac and Wii Fit Trainer down to C tier. Ganondorf and Wario could also be moved down. But Robin should still be moved up to B tier to keep it in line with Sonic and Megaman. And Pacman and Bowser Jr. should also be moved up to B tier. Both do high damage and kill around the same percents as Robin, Kirby, Megaman, Sonic, etc. And Peach should DEFINITELY be moved up, it kills even earlier than all of the aforementioned throws.

Also, I said Robin's bthrow was better than Kirby's because it does slightly more damage but kills at practically the exact same percents. It isn't really "better," it's pretty much exactly as good.

Also also, why is Charizard in A tier? Can you combo out of it? Because its damage and kill power alone don't warrant A tier.

Also also also, move Meta Knight up to A tier. At low percents, he can combo it into dash attack for a free 40%.

 

[Masonomace]

I would rate Kirby A tier & maybe Sonic A tier too for their respective merits being combo ability for Kirby & Sonic for the distance he makes up from start to land. I'd also rate Wii Fit Trainer B tier for her fastest Deep Breathing advantage & Little Mac C tier.

But on kill power alone, I'd rate all of them B tier, but then I wouldn't have the full grasp of what the strong distinction between B & C would be. I guess a larger gap in kill power or any extra utility?

 

[arbustopachon]

Also also, why is Charizard in A tier? Can you combo out of it? Because its damage and kill power alone don't warrant A tier.

Yep, if the opponent uses optimal di you get a guaranteed fair out of it untill around 25%-40%. At higher percent's zard can still get some stuff out of it if the opponent botches their di or you read their airdodge.

Even when Zard can't get any combos out of it it still is pretty good for setting up pressure. The throw has only 2-3 frames of endlag meaning Zard can follow up the opponent inmediatly after the throw and put them in awkward situations.

Another cool thing is that optimal d-throw and u-throw Di is the opposite of optimal b-throw Di.

 

[Y2Kay]

Does it feel like we've been talking about back throws for an eternity to anyone else? I'm ready to move on.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

We still only have the preliminary list, though. Where is OP?

 

[TDK]

He did at one point say he'd contact me if he was going AFK, but I haven't been asked to yet. Should I whip up a list, or should we wait for OP?

(If I make the list it'll be unordered this time, I promise.)

 

[jet56]

Does it feel like we've been talking about back throws for an eternity to anyone else? I'm ready to move on.

Same here. Maybe talk about the next one, or at the very least, discuss which one we should do next (I vote smashes, starting with fsmash)

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

I agree we should do forward smashes.

Good f-smashes: , , ,,
Bad f-smashes: ,

 

[TDK]

Like every forward-facing move in this game, it's usually going to be outclassed by something that sends you vertically. As such, there aren't a lot of fsmashes that are really integral to a character beyond just being a forward smash,

 

[Nah]

Funbot28 whatchoo wanna do?

 

[Poisonous]

If we're moving onto Fsmashes..

Wario's new Fsmash is pretty bad, no two ways about it. It offers about the same range as Ftilt, is 6 frames slower, and far laggier. As far as power goes, it's pretty damn strong, but the startup and endlag are just too punishing. D tier at the highest, it's just a bad move that you will rarely, if ever, see Warios use. Ftilt is almost always a better option.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If its Fsmash time:

Ike's is not good. Has been slightly buffed to be not as crap, but it ain't worth the payoff + risk of landing the sourspot outside of a shield break. In which case Eruption is better in most cases. It lost its behind Ike hitbox from Brawl so its not even a good ledge coverage option anymore.

Powerful, not powerful enough.

 

[adom4]

's F-smash is ****ing amazing.
While it is on the slow side with a 21 frame startup, it makes up for it by having a ridiculous hitbox that lasts for 6 frames(!), i have hit people with so many BS ways (usually when they were behind me by a good distance).
It's also stupidly powerful, being the 3rd strongest in the game after Bowser and Dedede, KOing reliably at around 70% without rage, sometimes even earlier if they're light.
It also does massive shield damage, doing at least 50% worth of shield damage uncharged, and almost breaking full shields when fully charged.
But the best thing about the move is the leanback, when Ganon charges F-smash he leans back, allowing him to avoid moves & hit opponents back with F-smash making it almost like a counter of some sort.

I can go on forever about how much i love the move, it's an amazing F-smash and i think it should be in A tier, the only cons it has is the slow startup & that it's barely unsafe on shield (It's hard to hard punish but they can get a soft punish easily).
It's easily Ganon's best smash attack and one of his best moves in general.

 

[Deleted member]

fsmash is a very mixed bag.

Advantages:

• Third-longest fsmash in the game ( have longer fsmashes... *growls at the latter*).
• First hit comes out frame 14 (around the speed of fsmashes such as ), which is very impressive for a move of its disjoint.
• It's also decently powerful, KBG is boosted if angled upwards.
• Good ledgeguarding move, especially on recoveries that don't ledgesnap.
  
• Decent punish out of a pivot dash, in Speed Art mostly.

Disadvantages:

• HELLA LONG endlag. FAF is 68. It's not even safe at max distance even with Buster Art because of this unless the character has poor traction.
• The first hit has a 1.5x hitlag modifier that's not needed, the freeze frames only make the move more sluggish in execution than it needs be.
• Second hit only lasts one frame. One. Why?
• There being a lack of hitboxes for a moment between the first and second hit allows for opponents to straight up fall out of the move at times.

All in all Shulk's fsmash is not that good of a move overall. It has good reward on hit of course, but Shulk has other moves that are better and safer for killing.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's f-smash https://gfycat.com/QueasyGreedyDartfrog

Zard's fsmash deals 17% on the sweetspot and 14% on the sourspot. It's active for 3 frames, has 60 bkb, 94 kbg and has massive range. First hitbox comes on frame 22, FAF is 70.

During the startup animation Zard swings his head backwards allowing him to avoid attacks. F-smash also grants Zard 5 frames of full body invinsibility allowing him to power through attacks. Invinsibility frames start at frame 22.

So uh yeah, it kills hella early as long as you don't get the sourspot. The fact That zard swings his head backwards, the move has great range and he has invinsibility make the long startup bearable. The endlag is still awfull.

It's decent a covering the ledge, but d-smash, flamethrower and ftilt are better at that.

Zard's f-smash is strictly a punish move ands thats about it. Powering through or avoiding mispaced aerials is fun tho.

C i guess?

 

[Guido65]

fsmash is incredibly good as it's rather strong and he leans back during startup letting him avoid some moves. The best part about the move that makes it S rank imo is its stupid hitbox.

 

[LRodC]

Best side smash is probably Little Mac's. Comes out very quickly, has high power, and it can be angled for three different variations. I think it's S tier. Possibly a tier of its own, but I'm not certain yet.

Mewtwo's is okay. Has decent range, tipper is decently powerful. About B tier, maybe C.

Sheik's is bad. Poor KB and it's very unsafe. Probably F or low D.

Zelda's is fairly good. Good power, pretty safe, start up and end lag is decent. Probably A or high B.

Dedede's is situational but incredibly powerful, it has high range, and it does well at covering the ledge. I'd say C tier.

Bowser's is obscenely powerful, and it's pretty good for mix up situations from up throw. I want to say B tier.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The best F smashes are easily MK's, Little Mac's, Bowser Jr's, Corrin's, and Villager's. Its honestly a little bit obvious as to why. MK, Little Mac, and Jr's f smashes are all very safe on shield and kill obscenely early for how safe they are. Corrin's is also nearly unpunishable at max range, can be used as a two frame, kills early, and the charge can cover nearly every ledge option. Villager's also kills ridiculously early, can be dropped off the ledge destroying anyone who decides to hug the wall when they recover, and is a good neutral option when used from platforms

After that though it gets kinda fuzzy. I guess Marcina and Samus fsmash's are the next few on the list being the fastest in the game

 

[ARGHETH]

Robin's is decent, but mainly used for hard, guaranteed punishes. It's F16, has decent range, and does 16%, but has 31 frames of endlag. C tier, maybe B tier.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik Fsmash isnt too good

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Is a decent move. Starts on frame 21 though is pretty laggy. What's neat about it is the reflector, in certain MUs like or you can reflect a good bit of what they attack with. Good reads can lead to some heavy damage if Olimar unwisely throws out a smash attack since you'll knock it right back at him. Same with Villager if he tries Slingshot off ledge. The move scales like crazy with rage and should be respected with it being even stronger at the tip.

Though it's slow so you can't throw it out whenever (frame 55 FAF) and unless it's well spaced on shield you'll be punished hard. It's speed also means you can't use it to reflect everything unless your at a good distance (Don't reflect Villy's Tree or Mewtwo's shadowball for example)

The best way to hit anyone with it aside tech chase reads is to follow it after getting a D-Tilt trip this is a very deadly combo and can kill very early near the ledge (Like 60~)

Don't know what you should rank it, B probably.

 

[Galaxeon]

f-smash is probably her worst move. Very unsafe, and she has other ways to kill. Probably D.

also bad. Slow, laggy, usmash is more reliable, it has range but it can easily miss if the opponent is too low. I guess you can cover some ledge options with it but it isn't worth it. D.

pretty quick, nice range, disjointed but a punish is possible so it's not really safe. It also has a dead spot right next to Greninja in non-flat stages due to Z-axis. I think it's C.

 

[Bigbomb2]

- Obscenely powerful. Not exactly something you want to throw out, but it can be a mix up. If Bowser breaks your shield close to the edge you should assume that's your stock. Coupled with intangibility and frame 22, it's pretty good for what it's designed for, which is murder. I'd say B
- Frame 15 is pretty quick for a powerful kill move, and Link hits hard. Not the safest at all on shield, and has painful endless. A solid B since it's a quite viable kill move.
- Frame 15 as well but his endlag isn't quite as bad. The other difference to Link's is a little more damage, much less BKB, but more KBG. A solid B too
- Powerful, but not worth the chance almost ever. Coming out at frame 31 is too slow in the grand scheme of things. Probably D tier because of very niche use.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bad f-smashes: ,

Fox fsmash ain't bad though.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Fox fsmash ain't bad though.

It's as weak as Sheik's. Even sourspots of most Fsmashes prove to be better at killing. Well, I would still say Sheik's is worse since Fsmashes with two hits allow the victim to respond with DI in time, the first hit will push them a bit closer to the blastzone before launching them, however. Fox's is more like an alternative dash attack. As for who deserves an exclusive bottom tier, Sheik is for sure. With Fox, Ike, and Bayonetta as debatable additions. Nobody else really stands out to me as beyond mediocre.

Olimar's smash attacks have item priority, so they don't follow normal rules. You can clank the pikmin with puny jabs, and win entirely with aerials, which no other character has to deal with besides Bayonetta. Mega Man's is a projectile, but it follows basic priority rules. This is the first reason why Olimar's Usmash is garbage tier, but we'll get to that later. The Fsmash however is not bad, as it is one of the fastest in both startup and endlag in the game. And the non-purple pikmin reach neatly as far as Shulk's beam by the last (19th) active frame. But the move only reasonably kills at close range, after that, it's a pesky projectile that creates space. It has magnificent shield advantage, particularly with yellow pikmin that have increased shieldlag, because Olimar will not suffer shieldlag along with the defender. It's about as safe as Metaknight's on shield at any range. It's a decent move, for sure, but leaves pikmin extremely vulnerable to attack afterward. If you want to throw a pikmin's life away, you might as well have picked Side B to do it with. The kill power of the earliest hit is far better than any of his other moves, but most players seem to want to wait longer until landing a purple Bair/Fair in the neutral. I would put it in a middle tier, certainly not bottom.

Just want to reiterate the item priority that lets you clank with low damage attacks, and beat the move with aerials. With it being one of the slower smashes and very high (48) endlag, it's hard to vouch for this move. Especially against other kill options like Bair which is safe on block, and Witch Time leading to a Dtilt > full charged Usmash. The kill potential also seems to lag behind any other smash that's as slow as this one.

/ all have Fsmashes that are more than one hit. And that in turn gives the victim time to input optimal DI before being launched by the last hit, so be mindful of that when you consider how well they can kill.

Similarly, if you subscribe to Input lag and Reaction time theory, all smashes that have 19 or more startup are theoretically slow enough that you could react with shield. But that's only in a scenario where you somehow know an attack is for sure coming, and not something else that has an animation, like a dodge roll or dash forward. To know that Mewtwo's Frame 19 Fsmash is coming and that you should block, you need to be able to visually recognize from the first 13 frames of Fsmash what the move is, compared to the first 13 frames of anything else. So it's definitely hard to say which smashes are slow enough besides obviously Ike and Dedede

(but not)(first swing) and have Fsmashes where the strongest hit is either not the highest hitbox ID or is a late hit. Meaning that they have to be spaced precisely for maximum kill potential. Moreso than smashes that simply have a conventional sourspot hit. For Mii Swordsman and Yoshi, the tipper hardly matters, but the others definitely do. Technically Villager's gets stronger, but that's only for dropping it over a ledge.

 

[BunbUn129]

MK's f smash is almost definitely the best f smash, second only to Little Mac's. The move is +1 on shield, with high power and 18 frames of ending lag, along with a hitbox as large as pre-1.1.5 Sheik's fair. It's very useful to just throw it out, and retreating and performing a turnaround f smash is effective at punishing reckless approaches. F smash can be used to bait the opponent into approaching, only for them to get caught by another attack, whether it be a d tilt, dash attack, (dash) grab, f tilt, rising dair, up b, another f smash, or pretty much anything. Even with the high start-up and low active frames of the move, the risk-reward ratio of MK's f smash is so heavily skewed in his favor it's surprising that not only has it not been nerfed with patches, it's also one of his few moves that's better than it was in Brawl, to the point that it's an essential component of his neutral game, arguably as much as his well-known dash attack/grab mix-up.

He can even set-up the move either through dair -> d tilt -> f smash at ~40-60% that does 27%, or through d tilt tech-chases past 100%, though the former can be teched out of and of course will not kill even with poor DI (discounting something extreme like max range and the worst possible DI combined), and the latter can be teched 2/3's of the time, so these are nothing more than mix-ups.

If I feel the match is slipping out of my control, often times I'll just walk around a bit and throw out f smashes, charging them for different lengths each time, so that I can assess the situation and hopefully force a mistake through the other player's impatience (though obviously this doesn't work against characters with fast projectiles that are difficult to react to, eg. Sheik).

Meta Knight's f smash is S-tier without a doubt, and I don't need to tell you that.

 

[TDK]

/ all have Fsmashes that are more than one hit. And that in turn gives the victim time to input optimal DI before being launched by the last hit, so be mindful of that when you consider how well they can kill.

Link has a sweetpot at the tip of his sword that launches in 1 hit. Rosa's multiple hit is situational since it's only 1 hit if you use it when Luma's not right next to you.

All of the multihits except maybe Duck Hunt are great at catching spot dodges though (Duck Hunt's isn't because of how easy it is to fall out of it)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's as weak as Sheik's.

[...]

As for who deserves an exclusive bottom tier, Sheik is for sure. With Fox, Ike, and Bayonetta as debatable additions. Nobody else really stands out to me as beyond mediocre.

1.) But it's a very solid ledge coverage option for Fox whereas it's just 100% situational for Sheik.
2.) Fox fsmash is better than Bayonetta's, Bowser Jr's, DK's, Duck Hunt's, Ike's, Jigglypuff's, Mega Man's, Sheik's, Wario's, Zelda's and no worse than Lucario's, Pac-Man's, Palutena's, Peach's, Pikachu's and WFT's. It's not bad, just very average.

MK's f smash is almost definitely the best f smash, second only to Little Mac's.

Sonic should be up there. His fsmash is just nasty.