Rahndaym topic (formally gay, then not gay, then re-gay rage)

[SummonerAU]

Who else gets mad at video games. I sure do.

 

[Isorropia]

The worst times are when you think you pressed a button, but you didn't really, and you die cos of it. Then even though you know you didn't press it, you convince yourself you did and that IT'S THE GAME'S FAULT.

I know I do that.

 

[Zero]

Yah, hence the whole getting ranty thing. >.>

If you want to get into semantics, there's an 'ulterior motive' behind, you know. Everything. Life isn't black and white, everything is multi-faceted. (silly word, just wanted to use it there)

We could argue that there is no such thing as true altruism, but I see the main difference between humanist aid and religious aid that the humanist has no Supreme Being to appease to. I can't claim to know what a non religious help worker hopes to accomplish, but when we see disgusting consequences of religious aid like the CONDOMS SPREAD AIDS campaign, I can't help but feel that it's (religious aid) an underlying reach for power.

 

[SummonerAU]

HEY ANDREW, DID YOU NOT SEE THE BLATANT CHANGE OF TOPIC? MAYBE I SHOULD USE CHANGE OF TOPIC TAGS

caps

 

[Sieg]

Become athiest, don't care about the workings of inner religion until they become corrupted like most other religions in the known world.

Let them have their cake, until they start to signs of religious totalitarianism.

 

[Zero]

The peasants have no bread!

Princess dumb ****: Let them eat cake!

 

[Sirias]

When I was younger I used to get so angry I would cry my anger out of me when I couldn't do something in a game. c:
Now I don't really do anything.
I don't wanna be boring anymore... :C

 

[unreon]

No apologies needed buddy, I don't take things personally I still love you too.

I'd like to take a moment to respond to this before the topic changes further.

stuff

Unfortunately, what you describe is a very idealistic version of events. Part of the 'mission' of missionaries is that you inculturate the areas that are not familiar with your line of thinking. It's part of their sacred duty to spread the word. Their ultimate aim is not to improve the lives of the poor, but to safeguard their eternal lives and souls. Whereby going about the entirely wrong way to do so.

In terms of the vague anecdotes that you provide, those are stories that should be called heroic (and deservedly so). I can't deny that those people exist; that would be dishonest. But in such large numbers under an organised umbrella working towards a common goal? I'm open to the possibility but haven't seen it yet. The closest I can think of are organisations like Oxfam and Amnesty International, whose goals are entirely humanistic.

In fact, these heroic stories often boil down to "look, this person is doing good without preaching his religion; it's almost as if he's secular".

FAKE EDIT: Lev 20:13 is close enough to killing gays as they need.

 

[Sieg]

organised umbrella.

Umbrella Corp.

Tee hee.

 

[unreon]

umbrella Corp.

Tee Hee.

:oooooooooo

 

[Sirias]

I saw that coming, lololol.

This is becoming awfully controversial.
Mayhaps you should stop talking about said topic.

In other news:
You're all gay for posting in this thread.
'Nuff said.

Edit:

Except me.
C:

 

[T.REX]

chasers war on everything > a current affair / todaytonight

 

[Isorropia]

It's interesting that you refer to it as idealistic unreon, because at the church that I go to, that's what we teach, and it's what we do. >.>

And as for all missionaries doing it ultimately out of a self-seeking desire, well that's a much larger point pertaining to the actions of any Christian. Once again, people like that exist, but I assure you that there are many Christians who earnestly seek to put off such motivations and help other people out of their love for Jesus/Jesus love for everyone. (if that makes sense. >.>)

 

[_X_]

Basically, as some people know, I'm gay (and if you didn't, you do now).

Anyway, my younger brothers/sisters/parents (parents obviously aren't younger) are all fine with it, etc etc.

It was revealed today to my older brother (who is a drug addict and on Disability because of problems he himself caused by using drugs in the first place) found out. He walks up to be and goes "You are kidding? Not only are you a half wog (he's full, as he would say, "Aussie") You are a ****ing ****** as well (two F words, one obvious, one is the one for gays)? He did this in a very aggressive tone. I attempted to explain how I had no say in the matter (I don't, those that don't understand, you just don't) and the next thing he does is just punches me straight in the face and yells out "*****". At this stage I got up and smashed him in the back of the head with a pole, but I only attacked back because he attacked me.

I hate this sort of discrimination. I can get accepted by so many people but when my own family (parts of it) turn me away, you have no idea how utterly wrenching it is. I have no problem with gay jokes, like, "Oh Nova would suck the big one" etc, or people calling people gay, it's just when homophobia enters I lose control. But for my own, older brother to punch me just because this was lightly announced.... Luckily my younger brother is a lot larger and put him in his place very quickly.

*Sigh*

btw, as I said, I have no issues with gay jokes and such, or calling things gay, whatever. The word has changed definitions more than once anyway. Just *Sigh* Punched by my own brother for something I have no control over....

That's pretty brutal man, epic counter btw.

My *close family member (to avoid discrimination will remain nameless)* is gay and at first I was admittedly put off, I was only 16 (ish) when he told me, I did not however punch him in the face. He's a good kid.

My Mum has a plethora of gay friends who come over weekly, they're all amazing people. Wow, now that I think about it I know A LOT of gay... >_> I actually find them to be friendlier... Maybe it's 'cause I'm so pretty.

Maybe we'll never know...

Anyway kudos on the standing up for your-selfness. Not to mention the racism as well, I really, really can't stand that.

 

[undead_moose]

I dont know why you think your boring kas

everyone talks about you in high regard

if anything i would say thats pretty anti boring.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I didnt really want to get into this unny but now I will, and I hope this doesnt offend you too much in anyway, but I think your crossing the line here dude.

first off let me clear a few things up

catholics and christians may appear to be similar on the surface, but the reality is that they are very very different, so dont go interchanging the two.

as for the pope, christians dont recognize him as anything, he's just another guy like everyone else, nothing special about him, he's not any better or holier than anyone else, so whatever he says or 'laws' he decrees, dont mean ****.

one of the basic underlying pricipals of christanity, is humilty, so the guy on the tv who says god loves you and will forgive you if you give him money is an idiot, and the people who go 'hey world look at me, look at how good I am, look at all these things I'm doing for people, god loves me more then you" are also idiots, please dont judge an entire religion based on a few idiots.

although saying that, its easy for you to do so, because most christians are happy and content to let all the good stuff they do go un-noticed, so its understandable that you would think that, but the truth is very different, espcially when the media do their best to make them look bad.

now I know quite alot of people, some of them good friends, who have gone overseas and done this kind of work, and let me tell you all your great ideas, like giving them food, building them houses and toilets, clean water supplies, teaching them to read and write, it already happens.
now I wont deny that they also try to preach and spread the word of god, I wont even try to deny that its not their true or ulterior motive, because it usually is, but, how is that a bad thing?

they're still getting what needs to be done, done.
and they are trying to teach people their way of life, which is love, humility, all that stuff, now you can say its idealistic or whatever, but it happens, I have seen it personally, and it happens way more then you think, but as I said its pretty underground and goes mostly un-noticed (how do you know about it then luke? because like I said I personally know the people and have seen myself what they've acheived)

they dont go around teaching people that gays are evil and should die or any of that stuff, they've got their priorites in order dude, and its so easy for you to sit there and berate these people who are sacrficing so much (even sometimes their lives) to help out a small number of people, but ask yourself unny, you've got all these answers and soultions, how much have you done to help the problem?

you may not agree with teaching people about the bible, but at least they are getting **** done and helping people out, but it all counts for nothing because people focus on what they think is bad (teaching people about god) and completely focus on that and ignore all the good they do.
are you really one of those people?

anyways again I hope that doesnt offend you too much but I think it needed to be said.

 

[Nova]

lol, parts of my family are Catholic & Christian and even I can't tell the difference (just that everyone in my family in Puerto Rico is Catholic).

And the Muslims, well, there's less of them but they're (at least on my side of the family) less extreme and sort of distancing themselves from religion gradually.

I'm an Atheist though. The only possible explanation I can come up with in terms of creation is that it "life/universe" is eternal and it never stops and never ends. Nothing else makes sense.

 

[Sieg]

Who cares about how the universe came to be.

Just realise that you're living in it now and you decide what you want to do with your life.

 

[Pete278]

Quantum and Astro physicists certainly care, thank you very much.

 

[Sieg]

Should have inb4'd that.

You knew what I meant.

Are you a Quantum or Astro physicist? Do you want to become one? If not, then yeah.

 

[Pete278]

I'm going to start my quantum degree next year.

 

[MTGod]

Enjoy all the computing and programming, Pete :D

 

[Zero]

Quantum computing would be a beast field to get into. Too bad there's too much physics to go into.

 

[Pete278]

More like too bad there's so much computing to get into.

 

[Nixernator]

More like too bad I have an IQ of 97, and can't get into it.

 

[Zero]

Nah man, computing > physics

edit: Nah Minx, your IQ is 97/100ths of the maximum IQ ever.

 

[CAOTIC]

I feel the recipients of their good work should be able to make their own religious/spiritual decisions independently of any influence by the missionaries. Their work is no different to those of 17th/18th/19th century colonists, which is why Christianity exists all over the world, for rich to poor nations. Islam and Christianity exists all over Africa, depending on which religion was able to conquer whatever lands first.

It's very possible for the recipients to reject the missionary spoon-feeding of the word of god, but immobilized people are more incapable of their own spiritual independence, because they exist in poverty and act in desperation. Therefore, the most immediately accessible and direct practices of faith feed their hopes for a better life.

The practice has occurred for many centuries, but religions are inadvertently more destructive than constructive, not primairly because of religion itself, which mostly teaches good, but those who choose to manipulate it and represent it badly for negative outcomes (i.e. the fundamentalist anti-gay Uganda law, the conquering of South America, or the Muslim suicide missions - these are all extreme examples though). Global divisions still exist everywhere and the gap is widening. Work is not really getting done. You can't really say missionaries or religion is doing good when people are only willing to sacrifice a very small part of themselves for others.

Stable institutional governance is the only way to pull populations out of true poverty. Not the piecemeal work started by various charitable organizations. Missionaries or humanitarian agencies aren't doing much good trying to build up towns within corrupt governments, for example. They are doing something, but it's lacking in substance or long-term worth.

Selfishness and greed reigns in this world, draped by a fake facade of good intentions.

I'll do my bit when I eventually work for UN-HABITAT or something. It'll just be some fake cover-up to make myself feel good about myself when I am just as part of the problem like anyone else.

 

[MTGod]

Vote for title change::: "Depressing Truths of Our Bleak Outlook on Society"???

It's very possible for the recipients to reject the missionary spoon-feeding of the word of god, but immobilized people are more incapable of their own spiritual independence, because they exist in poverty and act in desperation. Therefore, the most immediately accessible and direct practices of faith feed their hopes for a better life.

If I was in poverty and someone offered me a sandwich to worship God I would do it... Most people would too... The human will to survive is at most times stronger than their morality... Basically, ---> agrees with Caotic...

 

[Zero]

Heh, Thomas Moore and his religious stubbornness would disagree with you.

I think Blackadder summed it up perfectly though.

"Thomas Moore, burnt at the stake for refusing to recant his Catholicism. As the flames licked higher,it didn't occur to him to say....

I recant my Catholicism!"

 

[TakFR]

Please don't remind me of that, I had to study the play of that tale last year for Year 12 English (rage). Thomas Moore was an idiot

 

[Isorropia]

Cao, I don't think it's valid to say that religions are more destructive than constructive due to the way some people choose to use it for their own gain. The same argument could be made for, well, pretty much anything. If religion just happens to be a tool used by someone when there's a full toolbox they could have pulled anything from to get what they wanted done, is it fair to call that tool destructive and not the others?

I find it's a bit like when some naive people say "without religion there would be no war", due to some wars being motivated in part or whole by what can be considered religious motivations. When in truth, in many of these wars religion can be just the focal point while a number of other issues such as the desire for wealth/land/power/long held grudges/etc also fuel the conflict.


It is certainly easy to point at the highly visible examples where religion has been destructive, but is it really fair to judge based on this? As Luke as already pointed out, over the last few thousand years people, due to religious reasons, have been quietly going about their daily lives helping everyone around them.


Also Cao, "You can't really say missionaries or religion is doing good when people are only willing to sacrifice a very small part of themselves for others". I'm confused as to what you're basing this statement on, as it's not at all unheard of for missionaries to die or contract life-threatening illness in developing countries, let alone the fact they choose to live away from comfort and prosperity. This is, of course, assuming you're referring to giving materially and not referring to their mental/emotional connection to the people they're helping.


And for those questioning how useful the work of aid agencies is, and to those proposing their own ideas about how to fix broken countries, I'd like to ask: how do you plan on implementing your ideas? (That's an honest question, not a rhetorical point). If a country is to have a stable government, or to be taught about the values of women and critical thinking, what are the steps you would follow to achieve these things, keeping in mind the vast, complex array of factors influencing the wellbeing of a country.



This post ended up far longer than I intended. >.>

 

[Nova]

I went to Thomas Moore College in Adelaide.

lawl.

I fail.
Quite bad.

 

[unreon]

stuff

First order of business: don’t worry about offending me. It takes alot to get me offended, and if you are actually addressing the issue at hand then it’s just discussion and conversation <3 So feel free to let shots be fired.

Secondly, I am well aware of the differences between Christians and Catholics. Not once did I ever interchange the two anywhere in my posts. What I did do was use one example from each in order to demonstrate why I have issues with missionaries. But you can’t deny that the voice of the Pope is representative of a movement which commands a billion minds.

Neither do I judge a religion solely based on people’s actions. My reasons are multifactorial.

Furthermore, most laymen media sources I am aware of are very into promoting religions as nothing but positive. So I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that the media paints a negative image of them.

Now we get into the more sticky business. There is an important distinction when you divorce the concepts of humanitarian workers and missionaries. Humanitarian aid is completely humanistic (hence the name *shrug*), and mostly volunteer work doing things one small step at a time. Missionary work overlaps its goals with the humanitarian aid workers, but the long-term effects that come from preaching do far more damage than anything else.

It is obvious that the areas most stricken by poverty have one of the lowest levels of education. It is also true that religious flags (especially the Abrahamic ones) fly in some of the most poverty-stricken areas. What is happening is that missionaries are extending their messages to areas that have a history of being the fanatically superstitious. It is naive to think that the only ideas they learn from this is humility and love. To them, this new book is law and a way of life, it is the textbook on how to govern themselves. Fundamentalist behaviour is promoted and their society degenerates to bronze-aged, Old Testament-style thinking. Poverty often paves way to render critical thinking void.

I’ve seen a live video recording just last year, recorded in Rwanda. Women were sitting on dirt floors as flames engulfed them. Apparently unaware of the heat, they sat unmoving as men beat their heads with branches. Perhaps they were unconscious, perhaps they gave up. Perhaps they thought they deserved it – because the village accused them of being witches. When the human condition is challenged to such an extent, often in society superstition overrides critical thinking.

And yes, I do recognise that people are getting things done. However, I am not one to suffer a sense of emotional confirmation bias. Don’t claim that I am ignoring the good and focussing on the bad. I am sitting back, detached, and viewing their actions and results as a whole. Yes, I bring up the Uganda issue. Yes, I bring up the condoms issue. Because they do matter. When AIDS is the single biggest killer in African nations (6000 a day alone, more than war, famines, and floods), when you have ignorance breeding intolerance, it matters.

Do you think I particularly enjoy thinking this way? Maybe a little, teehee. Unfortunately I have this annoying habit of always looking at the big picture and judging reality from there. I WANT to be proven wrong, my goodness I do. I’m formulating my stance based on objective evidence, not on what makes me feel particularly warm and fuzzy that day. I’m not one to ignore the positives, but integrate the staggering negative that comes with it. So to answer the “are you one of those people” question, my answer is a partial “Yes”.

And what am I doing about it? I don’t need to give my life story. But long story short, I’m studying to become a doctor…and that’s my way of helping the community.

The only possible explanation I can come up with in terms of creation is that it "life/universe" is eternal and it never stops and never ends. Nothing else makes sense.

Well, the current stance of the scientific community is that the universe did have a beginning, and it well end tragically =( The biggest revelations in cosmology in recent times are:

- The universe is flat, expanding out uniformly and indefinitely. Until any two adjacent points in space will be infinitely far away.

- 90% of the mass of the universe comes from nothingness (the empty spaces between quarks that make up protons/neutrons that make up atoms). Quantum fluctuations create a boiling pool of virtual particles that make “nothing” the heaviest and most energetic parts of the universe.

- In a flat universe the total net energy of the system is precisely ZERO, because gravity has negative energy to balance out mass.

The last point is very important. Only a universe that has zero energy could have come from nothing. Quantum fluctuations can produce a universe from nothing; and that happened 13.7billion years ago =)

@Pete: Very jealous of your course, sounds superbly interesting :D


EDIT: wow, I responded to stuff that was posted hours ago, and missed all of Cao's/Iso's stuff. That's what I get for not refreshing.

 

[Technodeath]

this'll be going nowhere fast.

 

[Ant1]

**** double post

 

[Ant1]

In a flat universe the total net energy of the system is precisely ZERO, because gravity has negative energy to balance out mass.

I thought the universe was believed to be spherical?
According to my sources (my brother). What u said would be the case if it had 0 thickness... but we can see galaxies thousands of light years away in every direction.

Unreon all u said about space is not fact, no one knows what is right.
but what the hell does this have to do with being angry? the thread title is about rage lol not space. '

 

[Nova]

This thread has changed direction about 30 times. It's quite clearly a gay topic, mood swings and such.
Maybe I should change the topic title again.
The Universe is much more interesting than my brothers.

 

[Pete278]

Remember, assuming time to be infinite, the universe to not be expanding and proton decay to not exist (all reasonable assumptions) you will be repeated exactly an infinite amount of times and thus aren't ever unique! Isn't that fun to know? :D

 

[unreon]

I thought the universe was believed to be spherical?
According to my sources (my brother). What u said would be the case if it had 0 thickness... but we can see galaxies thousands of light years away in every direction.

Unreon all u said about space is not fact, no one knows what is right.

Oh, I wasn't talking about spatial dimensions here lol. It's referring to the curvature of the universe, not about its 3D-ness. In a sense we are looking at how much the universe is expanding - which cosmology finds that it is expanding at an ever-increasing rate.

Ant, all that I have said about space IS true, it IS real, and it IS the current picture of the universe from multiple lines of evidence converging to the single fact: the universe came from nothing, and will end in the worst possible way. I'll link you to the lecture, where it gives a crash-course on the current picture of cosmology. It's actually given at an atheist convention; but it's still pretty layman if nobody likes science Skip to 0:25:00 to answer your question on a flat universe. And for the religious out there, it's not very preachy or insulting at all - maybe a joke here or there - so don't be too wary. Maybe Dawkins being Dawkins, but that's just Dawkins in the first three minutes.

A Universe From Nothing - Lecture given by Laurence Krauss

I've linked it around here before, but I doubt anyone watched it. Give it a shot; only an hour long and it will honestly BLOW YOUR MIND. (Pete since you like astrophysics, definitely give this a go :D)

Oh, and:

Analysis of data from WMAP implies that the universe is spatially flat with only a 2% margin of error.[1]

So in summary: please don't call me out saying nobody knows what is right about the universe. The scientific literature is immense on topics that go way, way beyond even the most brilliant of scientists.

 

[Nova]

unreon, assuming the Internet Channel on the Wii lets me (I'm sick and in bed, cbf moving), I'll watch that video since all this stuff interests me and I'm basically impartial with the exception of my "Eternal" theory above.

Edit: Yie, seems to work.

Edit 2: Yie? wtf, *yay

Edit 3: Ok watched the whole thing. Very interesting stuff. Loved the early quote about Religion and the idea of infinity and multiple Universes is mind blowing.