Q&A thread ASK QUESTIONS HERE.

[-LzR-]

Hi Lucarios. I really hate your character, a lot.
Now let's get to the real thing. Your fsmash is really dumb. Instead of whining about it I'd like to get better and learn how to deal with it. It seems unpunishable on shield unless I happen to play MK, which I won't be doing anymore. What really ticks me off with fsmash is how I can punish Lucario for things and do a lot of damage on him, then they do 3 fsmashes and hit me once and I die at <100%.
The character I play are Peach, GW and Icies. Dealing with Fsmash would be another step into beating them. Another thing, just how unsafe is your dair on shield? Would like to bait that move out a lot and punish with awesome things.
What are moves Icies can punish you with a grab? If any you guys actually do use.

 

[CAB77]

Hello all,

I used to frequent these forums a lot on an old account, then I stopped for a long time, now I'm back with a new account (that I admittedly do not oft use). ANYWAY,

I love Lucario and I'd consider him my main. I like his dodge / roll speed and I dunno, his move-set just works for me. My friend mains Olimar and seconds Toon Link, and I have problems dealing with both. I can usually handle Toon Link just fine if I'm concentrating on the match (we usually play with four players, so it only gets intense once it's boiled down to just the two of us), but Olimar gives me a lot of trouble. He's just so dang hard to approach! Olimar's got so much range and with both Olimar AND Toon Link my friend camps quite a bit, forcing me to approach and knocking me into the abyss once he does. Any suggestions?

Aura Sphere is a little too predictable and slow to pressure him into approaching (plus he's got enough range to pressure me right back), and Olimar's Pikmin will eat it right up anyway. Any advice would be great; I used to reign supreme over him in Smash but his Olimar is beating me to a pulp!

EDIT:

I will say that when I have the opportunity to counter-pick against him, I go with Wolf, and then I shred him into pieces.

 

[DrSoussou]

The characters I play are Peach, GW and Icies. Dealing with Fsmash would be another step into beating them. Another thing, just how unsafe is your dair on shield? Would like to bait that move out a lot and punish with awesome things.
What are moves Icies can punish you with a grab? If any you guys actually do use.

Peach: always have a turnip and use counter often. know that your floating will usually bait Lucario's SHFair approach because its faster than your aerials.
GW: your smashes kill Lucario very early, preventing him from taking advantage of aura bonus. USE BUCKET WISELY
ICs: learn to grab=stock and nothing else will matter

our Dair is unsafe on a full shield, but we can double-jump > another Dair and usually find a spot to poke through it. if its just one Dair with no double-jump, the opponent angles their shield up, and there's no space to follow up with a Nair, we're basically giving away AT LEAST a free grab opportunity. rule of thumb is DONT DAIR SHIELDS.

^this will result in a stock if you're a perfect CG-er. anytime Lucario is directly above you, just grab where you think he'll land. if he approaches with a SH aerial combo, he'll have to double-jump to retreat or land near you after attacking. shield then grab him. obv, grab them if they try to counter you with double-team.

Olimar gives me a lot of trouble. He's just so dang hard to approach! Olimar's got so much range and with both Olimar AND Toon Link my friend camps quite a bit, forcing me to approach and knocking me into the abyss once he does. Any suggestions?

Aura Sphere is a little too predictable and slow to pressure him into approaching (plus he's got enough range to pressure me right back), and Olimar's Pikmin will eat it right up anyway. Any advice would be great; I used to reign supreme over him in Smash but his Olimar is beating me to a pulp!

Olimar is one of Lucario's hardest MUs, and a personal weakness for me as well. When he's spamming pikmin-throw, be sure to Fair them before they hit you or quickly SHFFNair when they're attached and eating your brainz. Approaching can be difficult but after cutting down his amount of pikmin, you should be able to at least get in a dash attack while he's throwing. let one pikmin attach to you and punish his throwing lag (won't work if the pikmin is purple, you'll be knocked back).

Try to limit your SH aerial approaches because he'll eventually just start to punish you every time with either a pivot grab, Fsmash, or Upsmash. He's got really good move speed and we don't so tilts are essential in this MU. Try to juggle him whenever you can and go for gimps whenever they're safe, that's Olimar's main weakness and Lucario is decent at exploiting it. Don't focus too much on Aura Sphere, like you said, any pikmin can take the hit and it won't be worth the time it took to charge.

I'm more familiar with the Olimar MU but the Toon MU can be just as annoying. Aura sphere isnt completely useless here, however, and your SH aerial approaches won't be shut down as hard. Try to stay within mid-range but watch out for his Zair. Super projectile-spammy Toons can be subject to Double-Team, so be aware of this option occasionally (especially against slow-falling or blinking bombs that you can counter). watch some videos of these MU's so you can see how they're handled.

Toon Link
Olimar

 

[-LzR-]

When I grab a Lucario, they won't be getting out before I want them to, but Lucario isn't really the easiest character to grab. Once he accumulates a bit of damage, his moves begin to have incredible shieldpush.
But the biggest question remains, how I do beat fsmash?

 

[Sunnysunny]

Hiya~ Read your post awhile ago Mr.LZR, but didn't answer because...
well...
ya don't beat it. Atleast not on shield, or with those characters.

Peachy's the only one that can punish it on block when its spaced properly with a dash attack or turnip throw. But, even then it has to be while lucario's at low aura.

The way you "beat" f-smash is by completely avoiding it all together by going over it and striking its blind spot. Lucario's f-smash is composed of 3 hitbox's. The ones close to him are super thin, while the last one at the very tip has a larger skyword hitbox, damage, and more shieldstun. If you want to punish it you have to basically already be in the air over the small hitbox's when the attack comes out. Or somehow make him mispace the move so the last part doesn't hit your shield, because thats where the beefy pushback comes from.

You can only discourage its use, honestly. Game and watch is probably the best at this. Just short hopping around while facing backwards is incredibly effective, because your threatening us with b-air. His b-air flat out beats are f-air, and beats f-smash clean if your past the anti-air-ish hitbox at the end.

Threatening with peachs f-air has the same effect.

Sorry, but thats all I got honestly~ Just discourage him from using it. If he's overusing it, and getting away with it, he's in control of the match. Strike fear into his heart and let em know he can't be doing something like that blindly~!!

----------------------------

Lets see. As far as how "safe" our d-air is, it really ain't. Its good, but its just like all of lucario's approach options. Its only strong if we've been varying up what we do so the opponent thinks twice about what to punish with. You can totally punish with just a jump out of shield n-air for all your characters, even if we do jump up and do another d-air, but thats about it. No fancy punishes unfortantly~

--------------------------

As for lucarios moves that are punishable by grabs against Icys?
Mm.
Auraspheres. Auraspheres even at mid range are ****ing super punishable because even if one Icys eat the sphere, the other one can still continue running at us. Seriously. Even at mid range you can punish that if you just run right threw it. Super dumb.

Our u-tilt is punishable, we primarily use it out of an airdodge, roll or spotdodge, so look out for it, improperly spaced b-air's, n-airs, and low percent f-smashes are also punishable, but again, thats only at low percent. Hope that helps somewhat. You basically have to MAKE him misspace his moves against you too get the grab, or just wait for him to lob a aurasphere too close.

I have alot of Icys experience, and to be honest I think its in our favor. Hope that helps some.

 

[-LzR-]

All right, so fsmash is gayer than I though. It's essentially a kill at 60 goddamn % or walk away for free kind of a move. Kinda like shuttle loop tbh. Oh well. Guess I'll have to start throwing turnips around like crazy.
And utilt is really fast, it's hard to punish oos
Dumb character is dumb.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Lol yea its dumb. By the time the hitbox dissapears, assuming it hasn't made contact with a shield you have approxamitly 6 frames to punish us. Haha. Best just to attack the blind spot. It is essiantlly shuttle loop, only with hellishly slow start up.

Fastest options we've got is U-tilt~ <3

Its hard to punish, but we do give little clues were about to use it. Alot of cario's fish for it out of there dodges. Especially f-air, airdodge, u-tilt. Thats a super common one. We use it alot more frequently as a last ditch kill move, so ya know, just look out for the little hints at high percent~

 

[hichez50]

I would love to input more, but I have band camp all day.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

All right, so fsmash is gayer than I though. It's essentially a kill at 60 goddamn % or walk away for free kind of a move. Kinda like shuttle loop tbh. Oh well. Guess I'll have to start throwing turnips around like crazy.
And utilt is really fast, it's hard to punish oos
Dumb character is dumb.

Fsmash like shuttle loop? Umm, I guess? That is, if you ignore the fact that fsmash has a much bigger windup before it comes out, can't be used in the air offstage, doesn't have crazy base knockback, and can't be used for recovery... Then yea, it's the same?

 

[CAB77]

Olimar is one of Lucario's hardest MUs, and a personal weakness for me as well. When he's spamming pikmin-throw, be sure to Fair them before they hit you or quickly SHFFNair when they're attached and eating your brainz. Approaching can be difficult but after cutting down his amount of pikmin, you should be able to at least get in a dash attack while he's throwing. let one pikmin attach to you and punish his throwing lag (won't work if the pikmin is purple, you'll be knocked back).

Try to limit your SH aerial approaches because he'll eventually just start to punish you every time with either a pivot grab, Fsmash, or Upsmash. He's got really good move speed and we don't so tilts are essential in this MU. Try to juggle him whenever you can and go for gimps whenever they're safe, that's Olimar's main weakness and Lucario is decent at exploiting it. Don't focus too much on Aura Sphere, like you said, any pikmin can take the hit and it won't be worth the time it took to charge.

I'm more familiar with the Olimar MU but the Toon MU can be just as annoying. Aura sphere isnt completely useless here, however, and your SH aerial approaches won't be shut down as hard. Try to stay within mid-range but watch out for his Zair. Super projectile-spammy Toons can be subject to Double-Team, so be aware of this option occasionally (especially against slow-falling or blinking bombs that you can counter). watch some videos of these MU's so you can see how they're handled.

Toon Link
Olimar

Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely check out some MU vids!

 

[BlueXenon]

Are fair combo's easier with the cstick or using a?

 

[DrSoussou]

easier with A, better with c-stick.

better to start learning the more advanced way than to have to learn it later.

 

[BlueXenon]

Thankyou.
.

 

[Regin]

I was watching SKTAR videos and Trela was doing this thing where he'd hold a charged/charging AS and would then jump while (what it looks to be) holding the AS and then shooting it off with SH. Can anyone explain this to me please? You'll see what I'm talking about at 7:06 in this video of him at SKTAR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4. Any help would be appreciated.

Also does anyone have any tips for the Diddy MU that can help with the current metagame? I was also wondering if I could get some tips on recovering, I'm good but I'm no pro at recovering with Luca, I just want to know what options would be best for getting back other than the usual stuff..sorry if this is too much. Just a lucario main looking to win and raise some eyebrows for SC.

 

[infiniteV115]

You can shield to cancel an ASC.
You can jump out of shield.

So while he's charging his AS he presses shield-->immediate jump and does it quickly enough for his shield to not pop up (not very hard) and from there he just presses B again to shoot the aura sphere.

Assuming default controls on GCC it would be
B--> L+X--> B

 

[BlueXenon]

Im having a big problem when I use non mk characters (lucario). If im at high percent and get hit and I know I will survive, i forget to di and then im in a terrible position offstage where someone can block the ledge. I probably got this habit from using mk too much because he can always get back.

 

[D. Disciple]

1. Start DIing always

2. Learn how to extreme speed on stage with barely any lag. As in, you land and stand up immediately. It's one of the things I learned to do so I didn't get punished by Wario's waft or uair whenever I was forced to land on stage.

 

[Regin]

You can shield to cancel an ASC.
You can jump out of shield.

So while he's charging his AS he presses shield-->immediate jump and does it quickly enough for his shield to not pop up (not very hard) and from there he just presses B again to shoot the aura sphere.

Assuming default controls on GCC it would be
B--> L+X--> B

Thanks I actually forgot to post the link to the video (went back and added the link: but just click this one ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4 ), you guys can still check it out though. For a better understanding that is

 

[BlueXenon]

1. Start DIing always

2. Learn how to extreme speed on stage with barely any lag. As in, you land and stand up immediately. It's one of the things I learned to do so I didn't get punished by Wario's waft or uair whenever I was forced to land on stage.

Thankyou. I will try to learn this in training mode

 

[hichez50]

A good technique that I learned is to say stuff out loud while practicing/playing friendlies. If you die because of bad DI say "DI", "bad DI" or something that reminds you verbally. It helps me a lot to adapt good habits or get rid of bad habits in a more efficient manner.

Also does anyone have any tips for the Diddy MU that can help with the current metagame? I was also wondering if I could get some tips on recovering, I'm good but I'm no pro at recovering with Luca, I just want to know what options would be best for getting back other than the usual stuff..sorry if this is too much. Just a lucario main looking to win and raise some eyebrows for SC.

Yeah I have tons of diddy experience I live in GA. It really comes down to not dying first, moderate nanner control, and spacing your aerials with diddy's fair in mind. I'll start by talking about dying first. When I play a good diddy I pretty much have to have a super patient mindset. I normally take ~50ish damage before I can do anything outstanding. Often time it is even more that 50%. What you have to remember is that Diddy can't reliably kill without some sort of setup. I challenge you to watch diddy matches and figure out what those setups are for yourself. If you do die first you will be again in the same scenario where you take ~50% percent before you can do anything. So make sure you can get a speedy kill. After the first kill just keep playing solidly and the game should be yours. Remember diddy is a momentum based character. So just don't let him run wild and you should be fine.

Yeah, go into training mode and spawn the banana vs. whoever you want and learn every technique with it. Then practice using those techniques vs. CPU. Finally start incorporating those techniques slowly into your game. It really is that easy. You just have to sit down and get through the frustration.

Finally, you are going to have to get comfortable with diddy having an aerial that will outspace yours. The maximum hitbox on diddy's fair is larger than marth's, but it is not a chainable, because of it's trajectory. It takes time. I still get slammed by it quite often, but respecting the move will save you a lot of frustration.

OMG so much stuff to read. Being away for 2 weeks kinda does that.

 

[Regin]

A good technique that I learned is to say stuff out loud while practicing/playing friendlies. If you die because of bad DI say "DI", "bad DI" or something that reminds you verbally. It helps me a lot to adapt good habits or get rid of bad habits in a more efficient manner.



Yeah I have tons of diddy experience I live in GA. It really comes down to not dying first, moderate nanner control, and spacing your aerials with diddy's fair in mind. I'll start by talking about dying first. When I play a good diddy I pretty much have to have a super patient mindset. I normally take ~50ish damage before I can do anything outstanding. Often time it is even more that 50%. What you have to remember is that Diddy can't reliably kill without some sort of setup. I challenge you to watch diddy matches and figure out what those setups are for yourself. If you do die first you will be again in the same scenario where you take ~50% percent before you can do anything. So make sure you can get a speedy kill. After the first kill just keep playing solidly and the game should be yours. Remember diddy is a momentum based character. So just don't let him run wild and you should be fine.

Yeah, go into training mode and spawn the banana vs. whoever you want and learn every technique with it. Then practice using those techniques vs. CPU. Finally start incorporating those techniques slowly into your game. It really is that easy. You just have to sit down and get through the frustration.

Finally, you are going to have to get comfortable with diddy having an aerial that will outspace yours. The maximum hitbox on diddy's fair is larger than marth's, but it is not a chainable, because of it's trajectory. It takes time. I still get slammed by it quite often, but respecting the move will save you a lot of frustration.

OMG so much stuff to read. Being away for 2 weeks kinda does that.

Thaaaaaaanks haha. I went to another tourny in NC and had to go against a pretty good diddy player and beat him 2-0, with 2 stocks left each time. Your info really helped thank you. And I love reading information that can help me out, please write out as much as you can haha.

Any good tips for snake? I was doing very good and then ran into one that was really campy but loved to air dodge. As my friend Cura was telling me, I should punish with Fsmash more when someone is too quick to FFairdodge.

 

[hichez50]

Thaaaaaaanks haha. I went to another tourny in NC and had to go against a pretty good diddy player and beat him 2-0, with 2 stocks left each time. Your info really helped thank you. And I love reading information that can help me out, please write out as much as you can haha.

Any good tips for snake? I was doing very good and then ran into one that was really campy but loved to air dodge. As my friend Cura was telling me, I should punish with Fsmash more when someone is too quick to FFairdodge.

Fsmash is the answer to a lot of problems. It can wall out opponets, but good snakes will just laugh at you if you do that. It only works a mid-distace vs. snake.

Snake though is hard. I want to say it is +1 snake, but it is hard to execuate and stay patient. We juggle snake in the air all day long and there isn't much he can do about it. Long range gameplay is a stalemate vs. snake and lucario. And close range is where snake will beat the crap out of you.

Knowing those things you should plan on mixing up aerial chains into grounded hits. Ex. fair> fair> nair> side-B.
The fair will give him damage the nair will knock him away and give you time to potentially side-B to keep him away or kill if he is at high enough percents. Unlike diddy you can get away with dying first just because he is a relatively easy character to kill after you have some aura. I have never beat a snake in a game if I wasn't constantly leading in the stock count. Sadly for us snake can camp with gernades. So try and use those item techniques with that you learnt for the diddy MU to send the gernades back at them.

Also be aware of if the snake is trading hits with you. Many snakes will do this just because they know that even with semi-decent DI they WILL live longer than you.

I have really just mentioned things to be aware of. When it comes down to actually playing snake I have to play a very defensive, campy lucario to win. I have seen other lucario's play more aggressive and win. The point is the play style doesn't matter as much as you knowing what snakes options are against you.

P.S if he loves to airdodge near the edge slam him with a Up smash. It works so well. It is underrated IMO.

 

[Karnu]

Best two stages to counterpick Olimar on?

 

[DrSoussou]

Frigate and Rainbow, imo. Both mess with tether recovery a lot.

Don't pick a map with an indent in the main platform (Yoshi's, Halberd etc.), it makes him really hard to hit when he's hiding in it since he's so short. Neutrals are neutral

 

[AlexoftheAura]

But Frigate increases the chances of picking purples and spends most of its time in the second transformation, which has an indent in the main platform...

 

[DrSoussou]

wow i actually didn't know about the purples thing. i did know about the indent but i always thought that Lucario's decent ability to gimp Olimar off the right side made up for it. Rainbow Cruise and Lylat, then?

 

[Regin]

Thank you Hich. ^ o^

 

[#HBC | Joker]

But Frigate increases the chances of picking purples and spends most of its time in the second transformation, which has an indent in the main platform...

The amount of time it spends on either transformation is 100% random. I've played entire matches on the first transformation without it ever changing. I've also seen it change from one transformation, then switch back almost immediately.

The thing about purples is true though...

 

[hichez50]

Is there a quick resource to know what pikmin olimar gets more of on each stage? I am tried of guessing. I should probably post this to the Olimar boards.

 

[BlueXenon]

Is there a quick resource to know what pikmin olimar gets more of on each stage? I am tried of guessing. I should probably post this to the Olimar boards.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224450

 

[theDuL0R]

Frigate and Rainbow, imo. Both mess with tether recovery a lot.

Don't pick a map with an indent in the main platform (Yoshi's, Halberd etc.), it makes him really hard to hit when he's hiding in it since he's so short. Neutrals are neutral

DO NOT COUNTER PICK OLIMAR TO FRIGATE!!! Olimar actually has a greater chance to pluck PURPLE PIKMIN on Frigate! And the one ledge transformation only lasts about 25-30% of the time.

And isn't Lylat Cruise on of our worse stages to go to??? Especially with the random stage tilts and our Up B just gets effed by the stage itself.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Why do people keep saying that? There is no pattern to what transformation Frigate uses. Your premise that the second transformation lasts longer is false. It's completely random. Where are you guys getting these ideas from?

 

[AlexoftheAura]

Why do people keep saying that? There is no pattern to what transformation Frigate uses. Your premise that the second transformation lasts longer is false. It's completely random. Where are you guys getting these ideas from?

Personal, and very painful experience.

 

[DrSoussou]

DO NOT COUNTER PICK OLIMAR TO FRIGATE!!! Olimar actually has a greater chance to pluck PURPLE PIKMIN on Frigate! And the one ledge transformation only lasts about 25-30% of the time.

And isn't Lylat Cruise on of our worse stages to go to??? Especially with the random stage tilts and our Up B just gets effed by the stage itself.

The Frigate transformation is definitely determined randomly. It could not transform at all, transform only once, or (my favorite) keep transforming every two ****ing seconds.

Lylat is not one of our worst stages, the tilting isnt random and we can bend our ES to adjust when it does. As long as you aim to give your ledge-grab a little wiggle room to the outside, Lucario's large ledge-snap will take care of the rest. If you aim at where the ledge is every time you recover from underneath, THEN you might have problems with the map tilting down and killing you.

Other than that, the low platforms are great for platform cancels in the middle of aerial strings and we can easily gimp opponents under the map with a stage-spike or bair.

 

[theDuL0R]

Personal, and very painful experience.

Tell me about it! But still a pretty good stage for us other wise.

The Frigate transformation is definitely determined randomly. It could not transform at all, transform only once, or (my favorite) keep transforming every two ****ing seconds.

Lylat is not one of our worst stages, the tilting isnt random and we can bend our ES to adjust when it does. As long as you aim to give your ledge-grab a little wiggle room to the outside, Lucario's large ledge-snap will take care of the rest. If you aim at where the ledge is every time you recover from underneath, THEN you might have problems with the map tilting down and killing you.

Other than that, the low platforms are great for platform cancels in the middle of aerial strings and we can easily gimp opponents under the map with a stage-spike or bair.

And like Alex says, experience tells me that. Or it could just be crappy luck! Who knows?! And thanks for the insight on Lylat, I will not fear that stage anymore...except against Snake. I hate not being able to see his nades all the time

 

[BlueXenon]

How do you approach with Lucario? When I play defensive and my opponent approaches, I am 10x more likely to win than when I have to approach.

 

[hichez50]

Who are you playing against? The safe answer is use Fair, but there are exceptions and stipulations that probably should be addressed. Give us more detail.

 

[BlueXenon]

I have the hardest time approaching toon link, snake, marth and gw. I also dont know how to hit players that run away from me on big stages like ps1, ps2, and sometimes fd.

 

[theDuL0R]

FCAS and BAS (depending on the character you are playing against, would help alot.)

 

[hichez50]

I have the hardest time approaching toon link, snake, marth and gw. I also dont know how to hit players that run away from me on big stages like ps1, ps2, and sometimes fd.

@theDuL0R AS is merely a tool to help you approach it doesn't actually do any of the approaching work for you.

Marth is easy. You don't have to appraoch that much. I bet he will approach you with a side-B or a fair. Knowing that you just avoid them. This works most of the time on lower level marths. When I play top level marths I actually have to read when fairs will work. Typically well spaced ftilts and fsmashes do the trick. Then chain stuff close the ground. Marth beats us in the air so a strong lucario ground game is a must in the MU. Approach from the ground not the air.

TL is another story. It requires weaving and you will probably take damage if the TL is playing right. I'm not as that experienced in top level TL play, but I often play mid level TL and that seems to do the trick. You kinda approach TL in the same way you would most characters it is just that there game play style is to stop you from approaching.

Yeah vs. Snake I just camp and do my best. You probably should watch trela vs. Ally or something if you want advice on how to approach snake. You will benefit more that way.

GW is easy to approach at low percents at least. When you are at higher percents approaching means death. There is no "easier" way to approach GAW. You just have to do it with perfect execution. Spacing, zoning, timing all that jazz.