Proposed Evo 2015 Smash 4 Ruleset: Customs Possible!

[Jigglymaster]

Are you sure Ganondorf is considered a "bad" character? Or is Ganondorf just percieved as one based on a subjective list made by people that claim to know much more about your character than you do, when they don't? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, because "bad characters" do not exist.

It's up to the players controlling them to make that happen. Not the other way around.

You know, bolding things doesn't make your words any stronger. But regardless, I'll respond.

Lets take this into a more extreme situation. Have you ever played MUGEN? I'm sure you if you have you'll agree that there are major balancing issues there, due to the fact that anyone can make a character in almost any fashion. Lets say you have 1 player who uses a guy who has 1 million HP that regenerates automatically and all of his attacks instakill, and on the other hand, we have a player who uses a character with 1 hp, and his attacks only do 30 damage.

Would you disagree and say that player 2's character is not bad? That if the player is just good enough they'll find a way to deal enough damage to player 1's character that it'd bypass the regeneration AND take out 1 million HP? It's pretty impossible.

How about Mega Raquaza vs Charmander? Is there any way for Charmander to realistically win in a 1v1 battle scenario?

With that kind of logic I do believe, yes, bad characters can exist, and it applies to every fighting game that doesn't have a completely balanced roster. In Smash we have characters with different air-speeds, different weights, different attacks, ect. Of course there are going to be good and bad characters.

Maybe Mii Brawler can be better with his other movesets, but they're not to my preference, I know what I play best with for it suites my style. In Brawl Jiggs suited my style the best and therefore, she was my best. Same goes for 2122 Mii Brawler. If you want to fight me at my best, thats what you have to let me use.

If we wanted true tests of skill, we would only allow 1 character. That way, characters would never interfere with how good the player actually is, and the better player would always come out on top.

If you want a true test of skill, this game isn't for you.

 

[byebye]

You don't understand why competitive rules are used. These are the kind of arguments that the uninformed make.

Items are banned because the RNG that spawns them creates a severe luck factor that interferes with matches. At any given time, something could happen that messes up what you're trying to do, namely regarding combos. For example, a Bob-Omb could appear in-between you and your opponent in just the right spot for you to hit it when either approaching or following up on an attack, causing you to get punished for something you could neither predict nor control. That's unfair to the player and can make the difference between a match's end being determined by skill and being determined by bull****, and when there's money on the line, that's absolutely unacceptable.

Stages with extreme hazards are banned for similar reasons. They interfere with the fight, causing mishaps that otherwise would have been avoided, again, potentially making the difference in how a match ends.

I completely understand. See a few posts after I posted something like- that's how it will work competitively, and that's fine. It is acceptable, and it makes sense for the people competing.

not sure if I am the one uninformed though. :\

I'm just trying to say something about someone claiming the "spirit of smash". which is different to how we play it against each other. (see how I worded it out? if we play against our non-gamer / non-competitive friends, we play by using the "default setting" which is the "spirit of smash" part).

and we are totally off topic.
just saying that I am in favor of customs because it is a new big part of the game, and it hasn't been tested in compet environment this big. so I say, go for it.

 

[moyshe]

in it's time = meaning the few months into Melee's life. There was no standard. People had different rules and do different things. Some things work in Melee and some don't during that time. and it's fine.

This is that stage in Smash4's life. Let Smash4 evolve on its own and not try to be Melee.

------------------

real smash is made for n64 with built in 4 controller slots. devs made a game that will take advantage of that feature by n64. so they made a 4player, FFA, knock out game. it is what it is.

as for compet smash we stripped the game down to eliminate some factors that may give advantage to an inferior player. and it makes sense.
upto the point that we removed a lot that a little more tweak will look like a traditional fighter.
make the stage enclosed, replace % to HP. tada!

that is what compet smash is. and it is fine. it works. so it's fine.

-------------------

Smash4 has custom moves - let's try it out first. Let's not just strip down features of the game that easily without even trying.

Yeah I dont see much of a point in debating this with you.

 

[warriorman222]

Yeah I dont see much of a point in debating this with you.

So what's wrong with what he said? He simply wants customs to be considered, just like Time, Items, Fast and Smooth Lander were. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? We at least consider things.

Lemme say something: even items and Stamina mode were tried out once. If custom moves can't betried for whatever reason, that's plain unfair. People have found easy ways to fix every problem with custom moves. So what do you want yo argue? Custom moves are't special Smash because they don't change everything about a fight.

You say that you want new strategies rather than custom counter picking. Well there isn't a custom for each MU, and that are new strategies that can come from changing your special slightly. Bowser and Gunner can waveland, Cpt Falcon can add more mind games, and Villager can knock others away be jabbing his own tree.
New strategies develop from customs, and they're nothing like Special Smash.

Also, did you try them at all? Even someone who only tried them for minutes wouldn't say they were comparable to special smash. In the rare case of each single match having a different special loadout, let me explain that 90% of the moves don't change. There are still the same combos, same kill percents, same battle flow.

Let's try it out on a larger scale, It's gotten very positive reception in smaller tourneys and people want it at a big one. If it doesn't work, oh well. If it does, yay.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I dont understand how any of you could be excited about this, this goes against everything the smash community stands for as whole.

You are a giant baby. Stop crying.

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

Yeah I dont see much of a point in debating this with you.

Or you're just out of ideas/arguments to use, know you've lost, and want to cut it off before you make yourself look like an even bigger fool. I'm leaning towards that option.

 

[Squ0ldrive]

I honestly think that custom are cool and more than likly legit for tournament, but Evo is a really big deal. To some of us Evo is a bigger deal than customs and we have close to no idea what will happen.
It could work out, but it may not and what happens then?
The funny thing is if customs break the game, we could know before Evo, but by that time it we be to late
So why risk Evo?

Edit Of course this just one mans thoughts on the matter, and Im still cool with ether way

 

[byebye]

I honestly think that custom are cool and more than likly legit for tournament, but Evo is a really big deal. To some of us Evo is a bigger deal than customs and we have close to no idea what will happen.
It could work out, but it may not and what happens then?
The funny thing is if customs break the game, we could know before Evo, but by that time it we be to late
So why risk Evo?

Edit Of course this just one mans thoughts on the matter, and Im still cool with ether way

That may as well be Zer0s thought - and it really is a valid one for sure.
Slowly but surely path. Which has it's merits.

Right now, most I think agree to use customs.
But the stronger argument is either to do it this Evo, or do it next year's Apex or Evo if ever.

Do it but not this Evo side:
- Let's try it out in smaller tournaments for a while first to try it out thoroughly
- We can see it looks ok, we'll consider using it in bigger tourneys
- Smash4 risks of losing Evo forever if it fails (or maybe risks of a Brawl like treatment)


Do it this Evo side:
- If Apex2015 and Evo2015 established this no Customs rule - and everythings doing just ok. Then it might not happen at all
- we will miss a good opportunity if we don't do this now. it might be the only opportunity the custom moves has.

- Smaller and future tournaments will be more inclined to do the Evo and Apex standard rule and it lessens the chance to have the custom moves see the light of day in a big tourney
- the longer the rules are not allowing custom moves, the harder it is to implement in the future. (honestly this applies to any rule)

- It is just early in Smash4's life span. nothing is set in stone for now. it is the perfect time to experiment, be risky, and "fail early".
- If it fails, then easily revert back to old rules. If it succeeded then congrats.

Both sides makes sense BTW.

It is pretty much a gamble at this point.
low risk + low reward
vs
high risk + high reward

 

[CaliburChamp]

Finally... customs at a major tournament.

With this, we might see some Palutena, Shulk, and (dare I say it?) Meta Knight players.

Metaknight's customs aren't that good actually.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I really really really hate this, I dont think custom moves has any place in competitive smash and just makes smash 4 more of a laughing stock. I'm cancelling any plans I had to go to evo because of this. I wish there was a vote or something done because there is no aspect of custom moves that is competitive. It's random, now every character we have to expect different moves out of which changes match ups and changes our knowledge of each character. As long as smash has been around since 64 to Smash 4 when we learn the game we learn characters dilligently and I think this ruins that completely. It's really really sad, I really hope this doesnt catch on to other tournaments.

Customs add another layer of hype and excitement which is good for EVO. Also, the tournaments that did allow custom moves had no time constraints because of this. Nintendo also will be at EVO and supporting EVO, and guess what? Nintendo supports custom moves from their 1st 3DS tournament, that Dabuz won.

At Apex, Smash 4 was already a laughing stock to the Melee fan boys. As tons of people cheered once Smash 4 was over, and demoralizing Zer0's win. At this rate, Smash 4 will become boring. Custom moves adds another layer into the game that makes it even more deep. As a hardcore Smash Bros. player you should want to explore the full depth of Smash 4. Instead of putting brace weights on Smash 4, you should take those brace weights off, and allow Smash 4 to flex its muscles.

You also complain about the lack of Advanced tactics in Smash 4? Well, there are custom moves that have advanced tactics hidden in them. To say you don't want custom moves in Smash 4, its like saying you don't want Advanced Tactics in Smash 4. That just makes you sound like a hypocrite. Now, I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm just trying to get you to think deeper about it. It's only then that we will see Smash 4 full potential.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Guys I just had a revelation. With a cast this large and varied and with each character having crazy combinations of special moves... Teams just achieved unlimited potential.


And I'm not even talking Squads.

I can already think of one. Bowser Jr. (Neutral special, that blows out a gust of wind) he can use that on his team mate to PUSH him, while his team mate Dedede, can charge his F-smash or D-smash while being pushed by the gust of wind, essentially making it a super wave dash forward, and then unleashing the fully charged F-smash on the surprised opponents. That would be incredibly HYPE to watch! And that is only one thing I thought of, there are tons of more possibilities.

 

[Karaoke Man]

You know, bolding things doesn't make your words any stronger. But regardless, I'll respond.

Lets take this into a more extreme situation. Have you ever played MUGEN? I'm sure you if you have you'll agree that there are major balancing issues there, due to the fact that anyone can make a character in almost any fashion. Lets say you have 1 player who uses a guy who has 1 million HP that regenerates automatically and all of his attacks instakill, and on the other hand, we have a player who uses a character with 1 hp, and his attacks only do 30 damage.

Would you disagree and say that player 2's character is not bad? That if the player is just good enough they'll find a way to deal enough damage to player 1's character that it'd bypass the regeneration AND take out 1 million HP? It's pretty impossible.

How about Mega Raquaza vs Charmander? Is there any way for Charmander to realistically win in a 1v1 battle scenario?

With that kind of logic I do believe, yes, bad characters can exist, and it applies to every fighting game that doesn't have a completely balanced roster. In Smash we have characters with different air-speeds, different weights, different attacks, ect. Of course there are going to be good and bad characters.

Maybe Mii Brawler can be better with his other movesets, but they're not to my preference, I know what I play best with for it suites my style. In Brawl Jiggs suited my style the best and therefore, she was my best. Same goes for 2122 Mii Brawler. If you want to fight me at my best, thats what you have to let me use.

If we wanted true tests of skill, we would only allow 1 character. That way, characters would never interfere with how good the player actually is, and the better player would always come out on top.

If you want a true test of skill, this game isn't for you.

The point of me bolding wasn't to make any of my words stronger, but it was to make the emphasis of my points easier to grasp and clarify from.

In terms of the MUGEN thing, if there were any sort of competitions for it, such a thing would be banned; Anything to that can score a complete win with one attack (due to attributes alone) shouldn't be legal in the first place, because things like that cause overcentralization in the development of said metagame.

Mega Rayquaza vs Charmander by itself would pretty much be 1st degree murder, but a Charmander with a strong support and effiecient strategy could definitely get the job done, much like any other Pokemon with similar stats. Strong support as in the other Pokemon in your team help to supplement Charmander for what he ordinarily cannot do on it's own. Example being (assuming it's fully EV trained) A team with a Baton Pass strategy with the intention of maximizing Charmander's stats. Particularly, in this case, his Atttack and Speed. The circumstances of how Charmander (likely with Focus Sash) will enter the battle might vary, but unless the Mega Rayquaza didn't use up all of it's Extreme Speed PP's, the Outrage/Dragon Rush from the Charmander will not only sweep the Mega Rayquaza, but also the rest of the opponent's team as well.

There are "good" and "bad" characters because you are only observing in black & white, but hardly the gray lines inbetween. All of those attributes that you mentioned only determines the role that the character was designed to play; It's how well the player fulfills that role that determines the performance of that character. If you use a character with the wrong role, I mean... Of course they are going to be percieved only from their disadvantages because that's the only thing people see and it doesn't help that people seemingly only think with their eyes. Let's take Jigglypuff for example and the attributes she has:

• 2nd lightest character in the game
• 2nd fastest horizontal air speed
• A move that kills vertically around 90%- 120% depending on the character you're fighting (Rest)
• Relatively short compared to the rest of the cast
• Capability of breaking shields with a long, disjointed hitbox (pound)
• Six jumps that allows her to almost never have to touch the ground

Since Jigglypuff is an extreme lightweight with attacks that don't have range like Marth's attacks does, it makes Jigglypuff easier to kill when you're hit by strong attacks. Which means that her margin of survivability is only as good as your ability to avoid taking heavy damage altogether, but..... That's precisely what she's proficient at due to her floatiness and extraordinary air mobility and aerial control.
Yeah, your stock is gone if your shield breaks, but that's what her aerial mobility is for; As evasion is another type of defense. Not to mention that her followup potential is just obnoxious (in a good way).

Yoshi can't Draconic Reverse or Double jump Cancel anymore from Brawl, but that doesn't make him "worse". It only makes him different. My point is that "2122 Mii Brawler" can't be relied on in the event where custom moves aren't legal and.... is nearly an entirely different character altogether. You shouldn't let a specific move of a character to dictate who you will or won't play in the long run. Like I said, all the moves (in this case, the default ones) only alters the role of the character, not how "good" or "bad" they are percieved as.

A "true" test of skill is always subjective to the person saying it. As a pseudo-fighting game, this game takes multiple types of skill into account, not just one or two types. Hence, that it is rated E for everyone.

 

[GustGC]

Still would rather have a 3-stock, 8 minute match to give more diversity and viability for more characters, but I don't think that would happen unfortunately. Stage list seems good, but again, based on the stage available and the general rules, don't be surprised if another Diddy wins a big tourney.

Now, PLEASE. Best of 5 ONLY in Loser's Finals, Winner's Finals and Grand Finals. AND LIMITED TIME/NO COACHING.

You've said everything !

 

[Saikyoshi]

What I'm wondering is, if some of the music has licensing issues, how did it even get into the game?

 

[Squ0ldrive]

That may as well be Zer0s thought - and it really is a valid one for sure.
Slowly but surely path. Which has it's merits.

Right now, most I think agree to use customs.
But the stronger argument is either to do it this Evo, or do it next year's Apex or Evo if ever.

Do it but not this Evo side:
- Let's try it out in smaller tournaments for a while first to try it out thoroughly
- We can see it looks ok, we'll consider using it in bigger tourneys
- Smash4 risks of losing Evo forever if it fails (or maybe risks of a Brawl like treatment)


Do it this Evo side:
- If Apex2015 and Evo2015 established this no Customs rule - and everythings doing just ok. Then it might not happen at all
- we will miss a good opportunity if we don't do this now. it might be the only opportunity the custom moves has.

- Smaller and future tournaments will be more inclined to do the Evo and Apex standard rule and it lessens the chance to have the custom moves see the light of day in a big tourney
- the longer the rules are not allowing custom moves, the harder it is to implement in the future. (honestly this applies to any rule)

- It is just early in Smash4's life span. nothing is set in stone for now. it is the perfect time to experiment, be risky, and "fail early".
- If it fails, then easily revert back to old rules. If it succeeded then congrats.

Both sides makes sense BTW.

It is pretty much a gamble at this point.
low risk + low reward
vs
high risk + high reward

I think your right on the dot. At this time feeling towards customs at Evo.

 

[9Tales]

Mega Rayquaza vs Charmander by itself would pretty much be 1st degree murder, but a Charmander with a strong support and effiecient strategy could definitely get the job done, much like any other Pokemon with similar stats. Strong support as in the other Pokemon in your team help to supplement Charmander for what he ordinarily cannot do on it's own. Example being (assuming it's fully EV trained) A team with a Baton Pass strategy with the intention of maximizing Charmander's stats. Particularly, in this case, his Atttack and Speed. The circumstances of how Charmander (likely with Focus Sash) will enter the battle might vary, but unless the Mega Rayquaza didn't use up all of it's Extreme Speed PP's, the Outrage/Dragon Rush from the Charmander will not only sweep the Mega Rayquaza, but also the rest of the opponent's team as well.

In the future if you want to argue against tiers you should probably at least admit to the difference between Mega Rayquaza and Charmander XD (otherwise it kind of just shows how close minded you are to the concept that one option is better than another. After all there are hard quantifiable numbers that show Mega Rayqauza is objectively superior to Charamder in every way)

But let's explore what you've said. You've given us a scenario where Charmander could maybe beat Mega Rayquaza. In this scenario all you've done is artificially balanced Charmander by allowing him a number of boons that you haven't allowed to M-Rayquaza.

In fact your're underlining and bolding is working against you now as you've drawn a lot of attention to the critical weakness of your argument. Charmander is wining conditionally.

Charmander can win IF it has better team support, Charmander can win IF the player using it implements a more efficient strategy. Charmander is isn't winning on it's merits as a better option than Mega Rayquaza it's wining by additional factors (team mates and better strategy better skill) that could be applied to ANY "option." So you could pass those boosts to Charmader or to a Charizard or even to you own Mega Rayquaza. Once Mega Rayquaza operates with the same teammates and efficient strategy it beats Charmander again.

A competitive player always seeks out the most effective strategies to begin with so it's a bunk expectation to think your competitive opponent wouldn't implement the best strategies available to them. Given M-Rayquaza has the tools to implement these strategies far more efficiently than Charmader, Mega Rayqaaza > Chamander as a competitive option.

Granted Pokemon is a really extreme example because there's about 4 person/hours of effort put into balancing that game every time they develop a new one, lol. And one could argue that Charmader is meant to be objectively worse than the Mega evolved legendary counterpart of this example.

In smash bros there's a lot more emphasis and time spent to insure that characters are more balanced. So the natural imbalance that comes from the level of diversity in smash characters is significantly less noticeable and significantly less inpactful (especially at standard levels of skill and play). But it is there.

I recommend thinking of competitive smash as two people trying to complete an objective (eliminate enemy stocks) And then begin to consider how many options they have to work towards and actually complete it. Try opening and watching a number of competitive videos. Pause them at random points and ask yourself: what could this character do in this moment to come out on top from this exchange? You find that the list of answers you produce is pretty consistently a little bit shorter for characters perceived as worse.

 

[moyshe]

Or you're just out of ideas/arguments to use, know you've lost, and want to cut it off before you make yourself look like an even bigger fool. I'm leaning towards that option.

No I can just tell that it really wont go anywhere, he brought up Smash 64 for some reason and didn't really have much logic in his counter arguments. He was approaching this with a casual mindset and I didnt really see a reason to keep debating.

Also to the people who think Smash 4 will be more watchable with custom moves, that's hilarious. I know you really want your game to be respected and watchable but yeah I don't need to tell you the end of that story. Even at the height of Brawl's meta it wasn't nearly as fun to watch as melee, melee will always carry smash and other smash games will ride it's coat tails until they fall out of relevence. Unfortunately that's just kind of the sad truth, custom moves wont change that. I've watched matches with custom moves after I first saw this thread and it's just as boring and there is no "hype". The idea that custom moves will increase hype and excitement at EVO is delusional.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Yoshi can't Draconic Reverse or Double jump Cancel anymore from Brawl, but that doesn't make him "worse". It only makes him different. My point is that "2122 Mii Brawler" can't be relied on in the event where custom moves aren't legal and.... is nearly an entirely different character altogether. You shouldn't let a specific move of a character to dictate who you will or won't play in the long run. Like I said, all the moves (in this case, the default ones) only alters the role of the character, not how "good" or "bad" they are percieved as.

Considering the other guy above me already took care of the Pokemon Argument. I'll just respond to this one.

I almost feel as if there is a bit of a contradiction going on here. You say that a specific move shouldn't dictate who you will or won't play and how it only alters a role of the character, but then before all of that you admit that 2122 Mii Brawler is a entirely different character than 1111 Brawler. So its clearly more than just altering the role of the character.

It's also fine if tournaments don't allow him, I just don't enter those. Then I wait for moments like this where custom moves are finally getting passed and I jump and cheer for joy as tech I've been working on for months becomes the main metagame.

Honestly, I don't care where 2122 Mii Brawler is on the tier list, when I look at it, we work as a team, we both have strengths and weaknesses and through training I can learn how to make the best of it. I've tried to make teams with other characters such as Duck Hunt, Jigglypuff, Shulk, Default Mii Brawler, even Diddy, but none of them have resonated as well as 2122 Mii Brawler. I looked at his moveset and I thought.... hmmm, what could I do to make this work? I was the one who made Piston Punch popular, and once I started using it everyone else did. But I grew bored of the move and found it to not be so great as it was for me, I found a new move, Helicopter Kick which, at the time everybody was ignoring, that resonated with me better, and now because of me once again, that move is the go to move for Mii Brawler (though, some people still like Piston Punch).

So yeah, you could tell me all you want about how it doesn't make me the perfect player cause I'm not, I'm human. He's the character I love playing as the most and he's my best character with that specific loadout, so I'll be darned if I have to play anything else. I found my character.

Unfortunately that's just kind of the sad truth, custom moves wont change that. I've watched matches with custom moves after I first saw this thread and it's just as boring and there is no "hype". The idea that custom moves will increase hype and excitement at EVO is delusional.

Tbh Smash 4 Apex 2015 wasn't very interesting to watch either. So whats your point? The game is already dead to many people without customs, so we might as well try with, and if that fails too then its just back to Melee. If you're so confident it will fail, then just sit back, relax, let Smash 4 die and then it will be only the exciting Melee again.

 

[BloodL10N]

...Then just turn off the music in settings? Its not that complicated. Sure the matches will sound a little off, but I'd rather there be a bigger variety of stages than a select few, also I don't see how Halberd is a "legal" stage its hazards are very clear in the stage itself.

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

...Then just turn off the music in settings? Its not that complicated. Sure the matches will sound a little off, but I'd rather there be a bigger variety of stages than a select few, also I don't see how Halberd is a "legal" stage its hazards are very clear in the stage itself.

According to what someone else said, even with the slider turned all the way down, a song has a tiny chance of being played. It sounds dumb as hell but what're you gonna do?

 

[Iceweasel]

Stop 2-stocking, please. It's way too restrictive. 3 stock 8 minutes is the standard for Brawl, a much slower game. There's no reason you can't run SSB4 the same way.

Not sure about customs at EVO. I think we should test them out in smaller venues first.

 

[byebye]

Stop 2-stocking, please. It's way too restrictive. 3 stock 8 minutes is the standard for Brawl, a much slower game. There's no reason you can't run SSB4 the same way.

Not sure about customs at EVO. I think we should test them out in smaller venues first.

I am in favor of 3 stock - but Evo state that 5mins is their cap so can't fight that fight for now.

Customs on the other hand is out in the open and Evo is considering it strongly.

So I guess exactly what you said, except in reverse.
Let's do customs now - and try out 3 stock 8 mins in smaller venues and if it goes well, make a push for it to be standard.

 

[BloodL10N]

According to what someone else said, even with the slider turned all the way down, a song has a tiny chance of being played. It sounds dumb as hell but what're you gonna do?

Well I mean turn music off completely, or is that what you're referring to?

 

[9Tales]

I think BloodL10N is referring to simply turning off all music from the audio options menu rather than lowering song frequencies in the My Music menu

 

[moofpi]

I think BloodL10N is referring to simply turning off all music from the audio options menu rather than lowering song frequencies in the My Music menu

Bcause the only thing more hype than KK Slider's lullaby is the sound of silence only broken by two apes grabbing and screeching at each other for 5 minutes at a time.

 

[Lukingordex]

I'm kinda surprised people think implementing customs are more important than 3 stocks.

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

I'm kinda surprised people think implementing customs are more important than 3 stocks.

It's certainly the bigger issue at hand. 3 stocks is nothing new. It might be more popular than 2, but we've seen it before. We've never seen custom movesets in a tourney before. That's probably why it's currently the bigger issues. (Side note: I agree it should probably be three)

 

[Flawed]

2 Stocks already take forever. After watching Apex , all of our locals are going 2 stock only and always.

I can't wait to watch windbox moves at Evo tho, the pure skill will be awesome to see

 

[moyshe]

Tbh Smash 4 Apex 2015 wasn't very interesting to watch either. So whats your point? The game is already dead to many people without customs, so we might as well try with, and if that fails too then its just back to Melee. If you're so confident it will fail, then just sit back, relax, let Smash 4 die and then it will be only the exciting Melee again.

I'm not confident it will fail, nor do I want it to. I like Smash 4 and I had high hopes for it until all of this. I only say it will become irrelevant because Melee/64/PM are the only constants. Brawl got disposed of really fast after Smash 4 came out, like really fast. And I liked Brawl as much as anyone could like Brawl, but when the next Smash comes out in 7 years Smash 4 will fall by the wayside as well. But I really wish we could have seen Smash 4's meta evolve without custom moves. That's gonna be my final comment on the matter because that's really just how I feel.

Also if I do decide to stay with Smash 4 I'll be beating custom kids with stock fox.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I'm not confident it will fail, nor do I want it to. I like Smash 4 and I had high hopes for it until all of this. I only say it will become irrelevant because Melee/64/PM are the only constants. Brawl got disposed of really fast after Smash 4 came out, like really fast. And I liked Brawl as much as anyone could like Brawl, but when the next Smash comes out in 7 years Smash 4 will fall by the wayside as well. But I really wish we could have seen Smash 4's meta evolve without custom moves. That's gonna be my final comment on the matter because that's really just how I feel.

I'm sorry you feel that way. If Smash 5 is anything similar to Smash 4 it most certainly will go away. I wont deny that. Mostly due to the fact that well, why play one game when there's another thats just like it but better? I'm sure if Smash 4 was different than both Melee and Brawl to a wider scenario, Brawl wouldn't be as dead as it is now (such as myself, because I play a character that is banned in the current metagame)

imma be straight with you, if Smash 4 didn't add customs or patches, it was going to die before 2016 so regardless you wouldn't have seen the metagame evolve regardless. With a majority of people dying for custom moves, you could probably understand that most of them hate the game as it is now and would rather just give up than continue playing it.

Custom moves are going to give us a new fresh start on the metagame and make Smash 4 different than its brethren. It's the version of smash 4 that we should have had from the start. Who knows? Maybe this will make the game different enough that Brawl will have a reason to come back since it will be different again. Want customs? Play Smash 4. Don't want customs? Play Brawl.

 

[moyshe]

I'm sorry you feel that way. If Smash 5 is anything similar to Smash 4 it most certainly will go away. I wont deny that. Mostly due to the fact that well, why play one game when there's another thats just like it but better? I'm sure if Smash 4 was different than both Melee and Brawl to a wider scenario, Brawl wouldn't be as dead as it is now (such as myself, because I play a character that is banned in the current metagame)

imma be straight with you, if Smash 4 didn't add customs or patches, it was going to die before 2016 so regardless you wouldn't have seen the metagame evolve regardless. With a majority of people dying for custom moves, you could probably understand that most of them hate the game as it is now and would rather just give up than continue playing it.

Custom moves are going to give us a new fresh start on the metagame and make Smash 4 different than its brethren. It's the version of smash 4 that we should have had from the start. Who knows? Maybe this will make the game different enough that Brawl will have a reason to come back since it will be different again. Want customs? Play Smash 4. Don't want customs? Play Brawl.

I know I said that was gonna be my final statement, but I just gotta be out here grinding. I disagree with you completely, when Brawl came out it didn't look like much of anything but after time AT's were found and the meta got faster and faster and from 2008 to 2010 it was a different game. What I think isn't quite seeping in for the Smash 4 community is that metas need time to grow, from 2001 to 2003 Melee was not the same game. By allowing customs we completely gave up on what the meta could have been and are going in what I think is a lazier direction. The game has been out for almost 3 months, there is no way you or anybody else can determine where the meta is heading after 3 months and if you really think you can you're insane. We're giving up on what could have been and I think that's really sad, this is a cop out.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Well then this pretty much concludes the argument. We might as well agree to disagree. Since I still uphold my side of the argument.

There are techs I like with Mii brawler, that cannot be preformed with Default Mii Brawler, such as feint jump edge cancelling and Helicopter Kick combos. In my eyes, he becomes a far more interesting character and I would hate to see all his potential wasted because he was limited to default where his current default specials, have well, almost no use.


Theres a what could have been for customs, and thers a what could have been without. Either way, one of us is losing. Thats just how it is.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Words and stuff

I didn't artificially balance anything. Jigglymaster asked for a realistic scenario where a Charmander could fend for itself against a Mega Rayquaza, so I gave him one. Unorthodox? Maybe, but definitely not completely impossible. I'm not just going to throw out a Charmander that I'd literally just recieve from Professor Oak. lol

That's true, most competitive players do seek out the most efficient strategies. However, there are also those rare few who make efficient strategies on their own. It's always fundamentally important to know what works, but the key factor lies in how you apply it. The thing about the list of answers I produce for competitive Smash play, is that the list of answers is practicially limitless; Don't see an advantagous option? Make some up yourself! If you only pay attention to what a move does up front, every character will be stuck exactly where they've always been, but when you take those alternate possibilities into account (without losing visual of fundamentals), you'll start to see that those characters that are percieved as "worse", are not nearly as limited as you originally thought. Believe me, I am like nooooo where near from being closed minded.

I'm not saying this is you, but people keep talking about these "imbalances". To get a threshold of what these imbalances are, we need to get a grasp of what balance is, which...I'm sure almost nobody in this thread has. Everybody wants their character to be a certain way, or do a certain thing, when these characters are the way they are for a reason and there are ways around those disadvantages as long as you're willing to accept the limitations with the character's design (every character has limitations), but.... nobody is willing to do that; Nobody is willing to put forth the creative, experiemental effort to develop their character, so people are in a constant bind to try to "fix" what's not even broken to begin with to take the much easier route. Yes, you guessed it... The the terms "balance", "imbalance", "good", "bad", "better" and "worse" all have one thing in common; they are all subjective to the person saying it. Everybody is trying so unbelievably hard to obtain a "perfect" character, when perfection doesn't exist in this world.

This is partially the reason Customs should not be legal. Because it is once again, an end result of a mass of people trying to "fix" something that was never broken or somehow incomprehensible in the first place. It's just another scapegoat excuse for people to continue to ***** about how "bad" their character is in hope to get a "perfect" character, instead of putting in the creative, developmental footwork to advance their metagame at hand. There is not a metagame in existence that can advance without creativity.

Considering the other guy above me already took care of the Pokemon Argument. I'll just respond to this one.

I almost feel as if there is a bit of a contradiction going on here. You say that a specific move shouldn't dictate who you will or won't play and how it only alters a role of the character, but then before all of that you admit that 2122 Mii Brawler is a entirely different character than 1111 Brawler. So its clearly more than just altering the role of the character.

It's also fine if tournaments don't allow him, I just don't enter those. Then I wait for moments like this where custom moves are finally getting passed and I jump and cheer for joy as tech I've been working on for months becomes the main metagame.

Honestly, I don't care where 2122 Mii Brawler is on the tier list, when I look at it, we work as a team, we both have strengths and weaknesses and through training I can learn how to make the best of it. I've tried to make teams with other characters such as Duck Hunt, Jigglypuff, Shulk, Default Mii Brawler, even Diddy, but none of them have resonated as well as 2122 Mii Brawler. I looked at his moveset and I thought.... hmmm, what could I do to make this work? I was the one who made Piston Punch popular, and once I started using it everyone else did. But I grew bored of the move and found it to not be so great as it was for me, I found a new move, Helicopter Kick which, at the time everybody was ignoring, that resonated with me better, and now because of me once again, that move is the go to move for Mii Brawler (though, some people still like Piston Punch).

So yeah, you could tell me all you want about how it doesn't make me the perfect player cause I'm not, I'm human. He's the character I love playing as the most and he's my best character with that specific loadout, so I'll be darned if I have to play anything else. I found my character.

I never said it would make you the "perfect" player. I'm saying that it is your preference, yes, but it alone does not define your skill as a player. You are making it sound like it does, when it doesn't.

The problem with Customs becoming the main standard for the metagame, is that while you might benefit from it in this case, it's pretty much going to destroy the development of every single metagame with overly compliceted perspectives based on nothing but a bunch of "what if's" and there will be no consistent foundation to base any matchups on. Counter picking stages is one thing, but being able to change up the custom move combinations will make everything far too counter-happy. It's almost like it wouldn't even be Competitve Smash anymore. May as well rename it, "Super Jank Bros. 4".

Before you say "People are just lazy and don't want to give them a chance" Let's take a more in-depth on what you're asking:

Each character has 4 specials with 2 additional alternative Custom move for each, which grants them 12 special moves total. Those 12 special moves can be arranged in any way that the player wants from the 3 different choices between all 4 customs (Such as "2122" Mii Brawler for example)

3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = 81 different possibilities. And that's just for one character...

But now, if you were to make the choice to change between games. where now you have option to change to one of the other 51 characters with a completely different set combination.

81 x 51= 4131 possible combinations...

Not to mention that each Special/Custom move has various amounts of applications for each (that will likely lead to AT's and such that haven't been discovered yet. Even with just standard specials. ) as no 2 players are going to always be ultilizing them in the same fashion with the same tactics.

So yes, I want you to know (not simply you in particular) that when you say "People just need to learn to adapt and give it a chance", you are literally asking the entire Community to enable the ability to counter your opponent with roughly 1,000,000 different possibilities of jank right on the spot.


How does one "adapt" to that? Easy answer; You can't. Not because you can't necessarily process what's going on (which would still be difficult given the sudden change in moveset), but because when you counterpick with Customs, the following game just becomes a spontaneous guessing game of "Oh ****, I have no idea what I'm about to get hit with....Or how to get around it." Which will eventually lead into a scenario where people are going to say dumb stuff like "If you can't beat it, you just need to get better.".... Sound familiar? I'm pretty sure you know that's exactly what nearly all the Brawl Meta Knight players have said for 6 years as they were able to fly around the stage, plank which would effectively run the clock for 8 minutes with this nearly unbeatable strategy and overcentralized character. To the point where 90% of Brawl players had to also pick up Meta Knight to counteract it, when such a thing should of been banned in the first place. The principle of this issue with Customs is literally no different.

Conformity to this madness alone, is what virtually killed Brawl, and will do the same for Smash 4 if it doesn't change. I'll say it again; Winning through skill is very different from winning through exploitation of the rules.


MU threads will effectively become a joke, because of those 1,000,000 different possibilites. Why need MU threads if you can just rewire your character to be a different one? You won't be able to get around to discussing all the complicated, scuffled things all of the possibilities bring to the table. Not in this lifetime, anyway.


Yeah, you guys are saying "Oh, we'll see how it goes and if we don't like it, we'll get rid of it", but the problem with that is that when it starts, I KNOW that you won't. It didn't happen with MK and IC's in Brawl, how is this time going to be any different? An even worse problem is that ya'll are saying "we'll see how it goes" as if you don't already know what's going to happen, when it's so obvious that you do. Because everyone is playing to win, while forgetting to play to learn.

History has a way of repeating itself. We can try not to repeat that same mistake that we're about to make again.

 

[Alex Night]

Brace yourself; power bow link is coming

Meteor Bomb tho? Bye, bye, Diddy. xD

 

[warriorman222]

I honestly think that custom are cool and more than likly legit for tournament, but Evo is a really big deal. To some of us Evo is a bigger deal than customs and we have close to no idea what will happen.
It could work out, but it may not and what happens then?
The funny thing is if customs break the game, we could know before Evo, but by that time it we be to late
So why risk Evo?

Edit Of course this just one mans thoughts on the matter, and Im still cool with ether way

Brawl with items. They like to try stuff out, and if it doesn't work it's not coming back.

 

[Alex Night]

I didn't artificially balance anything. Jigglymaster asked for a realistic scenario where a Charmander could fend for itself against a Mega Rayquaza, so I gave him one. Unorthodox? Maybe, but definitely not completely impossible. I'm not just going to throw out a Charmander that I'd literally just recieve from Professor Oak. lol

That's true, most competitive players do seek out the most efficient strategies. However, there are also those rare few who make efficient strategies on their own. It's always fundamentally important to know what works, but the key factor lies in how you apply it. The thing about the list of answers I produce for competitive Smash play, is that the list of answers is practicially limitless; Don't see an advantagous option? Make some up yourself! If you only pay attention to what a move does up front, every character will be stuck exactly where they've always been, but when you take those alternate possibilities into account (without losing visual of fundamentals), you'll start to see that those characters that are percieved as "worse", are not nearly as limited as you originally thought. Believe me, I am like nooooo where near from being closed minded.

I'm not saying this is you, but people keep talking about these "imbalances". To get a threshold of what these imbalances are, we need to get a grasp of what balance is, which...I'm sure almost nobody in this thread has. Everybody wants their character to be a certain way, or do a certain thing, when these characters are the way they are for a reason and there are ways around those disadvantages as long as you're willing to accept the limitations with the character's design (every character has limitations), but.... nobody is willing to do that; Nobody is willing to put forth the creative, experiemental effort to develop their character, so people are in a constant bind to try to "fix" what's not even broken to begin with to take the much easier route. Yes, you guessed it... The the terms "balance", "imbalance", "good", "bad", "better" and "worse" all have one thing in common; they are all subjective to the person saying it. Everybody is trying so unbelievably hard to obtain a "perfect" character, when perfection doesn't exist in this world.

This is partially the reason Customs should not be legal. Because it is once again, an end result of a mass of people trying to "fix" something that was never broken or somehow incomprehensible in the first place. It's just another scapegoat excuse for people to continue to ***** about how "bad" their character is in hope to get a "perfect" character, instead of putting in the creative, developmental footwork to advance their metagame at hand. There is not a metagame in existence that can advance without creativity.







I never said it would make you the "perfect" player. I'm saying that it is your preference, yes, but it alone does not define your skill as a player. You are making it sound like it does, when it doesn't.

The problem with Customs becoming the main standard for the metagame, is that while you might benefit from it in this case, it's pretty much going to destroy the development of every single metagame with overly compliceted perspectives based on nothing but a bunch of "what if's" and there will be no consistent foundation to base any matchups on. Counter picking stages is one thing, but being able to change up the custom move combinations will make everything far too counter-happy. It's almost like it wouldn't even be Competitve Smash anymore. May as well rename it, "Super Jank Bros. 4".

Before you say "People are just lazy and don't want to give them a chance" Let's take a more in-depth on what you're asking:

Each character has 4 specials with 2 additional alternative Custom move for each, which grants them 12 special moves total. Those 12 special moves can be arranged in any way that the player wants from the 3 different choices between all 4 customs (Such as "2122" Mii Brawler for example)

3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = 81 different possibilities. And that's just for one character...

But now, if you were to make the choice to change between games. where now you have option to change to one of the other 51 characters with a completely different set combination.

81 x 51= 4131 possible combinations...

Not to mention that each Special/Custom move has various amounts of applications for each (that will likely lead to AT's and such that haven't been discovered yet. Even with just standard specials. ) as no 2 players are going to always be ultilizing them in the same fashion with the same tactics.

So yes, I want you to know (not simply you in particular) that when you say "People just need to learn to adapt and give it a chance", you are literally asking the entire Community to enable the ability to counter your opponent with roughly 1,000,000 different possibilities of jank right on the spot.


How does one "adapt" to that? Easy answer; You can't. Not because you can't necessarily process what's going on (which would still be difficult given the sudden change in moveset), but because when you counterpick with Customs, the following game just becomes a spontaneous guessing game of "Oh ****, I have no idea what I'm about to get hit with....Or how to get around it." Which will eventually lead into a scenario where people are going to say dumb stuff like "If you can't beat it, you just need to get better.".... Sound familiar? I'm pretty sure you know that's exactly what nearly all the Brawl Meta Knight players have said for 6 years as they were able to fly around the stage, plank which would effectively run the clock for 8 minutes with this nearly unbeatable strategy and overcentralized character. To the point where 90% of Brawl players had to also pick up Meta Knight to counteract it, when such a thing should of been banned in the first place. The principle of this issue with Customs is literally no different.

Conformity to this madness alone, is what virtually killed Brawl, and will do the same for Smash 4 if it doesn't change. I'll say it again; Winning through skill is very different from winning through exploitation of the rules.


MU threads will effectively become a joke, because of those 1,000,000 different possibilites. Why need MU threads if you can just rewire your character to be a different one? You won't be able to get around to discussing all the complicated, scuffled things all of the possibilities bring to the table. Not in this lifetime, anyway.


Yeah, you guys are saying "Oh, we'll see how it goes and if we don't like it, we'll get rid of it", but the problem with that is that when it starts, I KNOW that you won't. It didn't happen with MK and IC's in Brawl, how is this time going to be any different? An even worse problem is that ya'll are saying "we'll see how it goes" as if you don't already know what's going to happen, when it's so obvious that you do. Because everyone is playing to win, while forgetting to play to learn.

History has a way of repeating itself. We can try not to repeat that same mistake that we're about to make again.

You speak as if there is a meta for Smash 4... There is no tech skill in this game, just face it. The meta in this game right now is to Hoo Hah, that's pretty much it. You're making this into a bigger deal than it really is. What killed Brawl was the environment, the tripping, and Meta Knight, not stuff like custom moves. You know what other competitive games have fighter customization? MvsC3, SFIV, and even Pokemon has customization for their respective metagames and they are all very much competitive and have depth. Smash is still going to be a simplistic fighter and these are only custom moves that get changed with only 3 customs for each Special. Smash players are not born yesterday, sir. We all have the ability to learn and adapt to what our opponent is going to have for their customs and what they are going to do. You literally can't fight them blind because you have to inform your opponents of what customs you have or you will get DQ'd, it's that simple.

Sure, we can go ahead and rule out the use of Customs in favor of developing Smash 4's meta the normal way... What happens a year from now? Three years from now? The meta won't change all that much and you already saw how Smash 4 was received from Apex 2015 when GF was over. Imagine if that same reception happened again at EVO 2015. You can guarantee that Smash 4 won't be coming back without Father Nintendo coming back for EVO if that happenes, which is very likely.

Last I checked, Brawl didn't have customs, so I fail to see how we are "repeating history". People need to break out of their "traditionalist" mindset in order to move forward and have Smash 4 stand out from being just Brawl 2.0.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I hope to God there's no customs at Apex 2016. Let's try vanilla for at least another year and incorporate customs progressively through other regional and local tournaments. Smash Wii U isn't going anywhere for a while.

 

[warriorman222]

I hope to God there's no customs at Apex 2016. Let's try vanilla for at least another year and incorporate customs progressively through other regional and local tournaments. Smash Wii U isn't going anywhere for a while.

You saw what happened at Apex. Diddy may be obscure next year, but we shouldn't try vanilla for another year. That's the best way to guarantee everyone gets used to it, meaning customs will never get allowed.

 

[IdkLmao]

"We just need the smash 4 meta to grow it'll get good eventually"
Its almost as promising as brawl and brawl was terrible from day 1 to now. None of its changes amounted to becoming good.

Smash 4 will be the same way brawl is. A few years down the road it will still be a terrible pile of crap of a game and you're foolish to think otherwise.

If you are a brawl player or a smash 4 player the absolute best thing you can do is drop the game completely and just pick up melee.

"You elitist scum!"
There is a difference between being an elitist and just being right when something is obviously a better choice no matter how you look at it. You guys are simply wrong about brawl and smash 4 being better. Thats just the hard facts and you need to accept it.

If you're at the bottom of a pool and I tell you its a better decision to eventually come up to breathe air than stay down there and drown are you going to call me elitist air breathing scum and stick to your drowning death metagame?
The better decision is obvious. Melee is simply the better game. This isn't something we push with opinions. We're just simply recognizing that it is the best and correcting people who made the wrong decision to play brawl/smash4 instead of a game thats infinitely more fun and hype.

If you don't have the money for melee yet just sell your smash 4/brawl to start making money for it. You won't regret it.

 

[IdkLmao]

I didn't artificially balance anything. Jigglymaster asked for a realistic scenario where a Charmander could fend for itself against a Mega Rayquaza, so I gave him one. Unorthodox? Maybe, but definitely not completely impossible. I'm not just going to throw out a Charmander that I'd literally just recieve from Professor Oak. lol

That's true, most competitive players do seek out the most efficient strategies. However, there are also those rare few who make efficient strategies on their own. It's always fundamentally important to know what works, but the key factor lies in how you apply it. The thing about the list of answers I produce for competitive Smash play, is that the list of answers is practicially limitless; Don't see an advantagous option? Make some up yourself! If you only pay attention to what a move does up front, every character will be stuck exactly where they've always been, but when you take those alternate possibilities into account (without losing visual of fundamentals), you'll start to see that those characters that are percieved as "worse", are not nearly as limited as you originally thought. Believe me, I am like nooooo where near from being closed minded.

I'm not saying this is you, but people keep talking about these "imbalances". To get a threshold of what these imbalances are, we need to get a grasp of what balance is, which...I'm sure almost nobody in this thread has. Everybody wants their character to be a certain way, or do a certain thing, when these characters are the way they are for a reason and there are ways around those disadvantages as long as you're willing to accept the limitations with the character's design (every character has limitations), but.... nobody is willing to do that; Nobody is willing to put forth the creative, experiemental effort to develop their character, so people are in a constant bind to try to "fix" what's not even broken to begin with to take the much easier route. Yes, you guessed it... The the terms "balance", "imbalance", "good", "bad", "better" and "worse" all have one thing in common; they are all subjective to the person saying it. Everybody is trying so unbelievably hard to obtain a "perfect" character, when perfection doesn't exist in this world.

This is partially the reason Customs should not be legal. Because it is once again, an end result of a mass of people trying to "fix" something that was never broken or somehow incomprehensible in the first place. It's just another scapegoat excuse for people to continue to ***** about how "bad" their character is in hope to get a "perfect" character, instead of putting in the creative, developmental footwork to advance their metagame at hand. There is not a metagame in existence that can advance without creativity.







I never said it would make you the "perfect" player. I'm saying that it is your preference, yes, but it alone does not define your skill as a player. You are making it sound like it does, when it doesn't.

The problem with Customs becoming the main standard for the metagame, is that while you might benefit from it in this case, it's pretty much going to destroy the development of every single metagame with overly compliceted perspectives based on nothing but a bunch of "what if's" and there will be no consistent foundation to base any matchups on. Counter picking stages is one thing, but being able to change up the custom move combinations will make everything far too counter-happy. It's almost like it wouldn't even be Competitve Smash anymore. May as well rename it, "Super Jank Bros. 4".

Before you say "People are just lazy and don't want to give them a chance" Let's take a more in-depth on what you're asking:

Each character has 4 specials with 2 additional alternative Custom move for each, which grants them 12 special moves total. Those 12 special moves can be arranged in any way that the player wants from the 3 different choices between all 4 customs (Such as "2122" Mii Brawler for example)

3 x 3 x 3 x 3 = 81 different possibilities. And that's just for one character...

But now, if you were to make the choice to change between games. where now you have option to change to one of the other 51 characters with a completely different set combination.

81 x 51= 4131 possible combinations...

Not to mention that each Special/Custom move has various amounts of applications for each (that will likely lead to AT's and such that haven't been discovered yet. Even with just standard specials. ) as no 2 players are going to always be ultilizing them in the same fashion with the same tactics.

So yes, I want you to know (not simply you in particular) that when you say "People just need to learn to adapt and give it a chance", you are literally asking the entire Community to enable the ability to counter your opponent with roughly 1,000,000 different possibilities of jank right on the spot.


How does one "adapt" to that? Easy answer; You can't. Not because you can't necessarily process what's going on (which would still be difficult given the sudden change in moveset), but because when you counterpick with Customs, the following game just becomes a spontaneous guessing game of "Oh ****, I have no idea what I'm about to get hit with....Or how to get around it." Which will eventually lead into a scenario where people are going to say dumb stuff like "If you can't beat it, you just need to get better.".... Sound familiar? I'm pretty sure you know that's exactly what nearly all the Brawl Meta Knight players have said for 6 years as they were able to fly around the stage, plank which would effectively run the clock for 8 minutes with this nearly unbeatable strategy and overcentralized character. To the point where 90% of Brawl players had to also pick up Meta Knight to counteract it, when such a thing should of been banned in the first place. The principle of this issue with Customs is literally no different.

Conformity to this madness alone, is what virtually killed Brawl, and will do the same for Smash 4 if it doesn't change. I'll say it again; Winning through skill is very different from winning through exploitation of the rules.


MU threads will effectively become a joke, because of those 1,000,000 different possibilites. Why need MU threads if you can just rewire your character to be a different one? You won't be able to get around to discussing all the complicated, scuffled things all of the possibilities bring to the table. Not in this lifetime, anyway.


Yeah, you guys are saying "Oh, we'll see how it goes and if we don't like it, we'll get rid of it", but the problem with that is that when it starts, I KNOW that you won't. It didn't happen with MK and IC's in Brawl, how is this time going to be any different? An even worse problem is that ya'll are saying "we'll see how it goes" as if you don't already know what's going to happen, when it's so obvious that you do. Because everyone is playing to win, while forgetting to play to learn.

History has a way of repeating itself. We can try not to repeat that same mistake that we're about to make again.

You're acting as if all the possible combinations are viable. Certain combinations will be found to be far superior to others. In the end we will be dealing with much less once we learn what is the best.

Once you're exposed to these moves enough it won't impact you much at all to see different ones

But seriously just play melee.