Proposed Evo 2015 Smash 4 Ruleset: Customs Possible!

[PowerHungryFool]

Customs at a major tournament? Wow... I'm not saying customs is a bad idea, but wouldn't it sorta ruin the history of previous tournaments? I've seen what customs do. I faced this link and he killed me with an arrow at like 20%...

A D A P T B O Y S

 

[Pazzo.]

You really think diddy kong is ruining the meta? I'd rather watch diddy dittos than matches that time out. If something can bring a low tier up to top tier from special moves alone it's probobly because you have to spam their custom special. Custom moves have not been tested this isn't the time to test it. Why can't you people understand it's a huge risk? Evo isn't a smash tournoment, this is the worst time to test it. All these people who want to advance the meta have no idea what they are talking about an advancing meta is not always a good thing. Why are you people trying to screw over your own game? I'm not agianst custom moves only for this tournoment.

We're not in the dark about customs.
While most have been sticking to defaults, we've been playing with them since day 1.

There are strong, but never broken custom moves.

 

[Luco]

Not too sure how I feel about this. I'm not a huge fan of customs, seeing as I still haven't found one that stands out to me. The default moves usually tend to be better anyways.
Could make tourney's pretty interesting though.

In my experience at least, this tends to be due to experimenting with the custom move and going "oh, look at all the qualities this lost from the original, it really isn't that good!" I think our perception of whether a custom move is good or not is based on the qualities of the original, and we don't realise the strengths of the move which are based on the intended utility of the move. Let me put this into perspectiive: Imagine Timber Counter was the original move - you have a tripping sapling that turns into a tree that fights back and when cut down does decent damage & KB... everyone would likely find that move fantastic whilst the alternatives, trees that simply do more damage/KB and have more HP would seem kinda meh.

When you look at it that way, it becomes more apparent why some custom moves are used. ^_^

 

[moyshe]

*sigh no matter what it is, people are afraid of change
Honestly, customs improve a lot of characters, plus they are 1 or 2 changes to preexisting moves. It's not like Warlock Punch was changed into Inhale >_>
People are just hesitant because they don't know much about customs

It's not change that we're afraid of, this goes against everything competitive Smash stands for and was founded on. I'm hesitant because this ruins everything I love about smash. And I think the notion that, "Custom movesets can help us beat top tier characters." is really silly. The top players will still be the top players, speaking of which most of them are against custom moves being at EVO. On top of that more than a few people have said that, "Zero only said that because diddy..etc." What kind of competitive scene is this when people dont respect top players thoughts? They place top 4 in nationals, the understand the game a lot better than everyone posting here, yet people still think they know better. I think Nintendo finally put the final nail in the coffin to end competitive smash by putting in custom moves.

 

[hype machine]

We're not in the dark about customs.
While most have been sticking to defaults, we've been playing with them since day 1.

There are strong, but never broken custom moves.

Who's been playing them? Have they been used in a previous major tournoment?

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

It's not change that we're afraid of, this goes against everything competitive Smash stands for and was founded on. I'm hesitant because this ruins everything I love about smash. And I think the notion that, "Custom movesets can help us beat top tier characters." is really silly. The top players will still be the top players, speaking of which most of them are against custom moves being at EVO. On top of that more than a few people have said that, "Zero only said that because diddy..etc." What kind of competitive scene is this when people dont respect top players thoughts? They place top 4 in nationals, the understand the game a lot better than everyone posting here, yet people still think they know better. I think Nintendo finally put the final nail in the coffin to end competitive smash by putting in custom moves.

I'm sorry, how do customs ruin everything you love about smash?
It was never that serious

"Custom movesets can help us beat top tier characters." is really silly.

I can agree with though

Who's been playing them? Have they been used in a previous major tournoment?

He meant people have been using them since the game was released, they are nothing new :L

 

[hype machine]

I'm sorry, how do customs ruin everything you love about smash?
It was never that serious

I can agree with though

He meant people have been using them since the game was released, they are nothing new :L

Yes because nobodies in the community have been using custom moves since the beginning, and means we know all about them. We don't know anything about them we don't know what they look like in top level,

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Yes because nobodies in the community have been using custom moves since the beginning, and means we know all about them. We don't know anything about them we don't know what they look like in top level,

1. Kinda hard to understand when you form your sentences like that
2. This is whole Evo thing is SO we can learn about them in a competitive setting
3. Yes, nobodies in the community. Because the whole smash community not including players like Mew2King, Armada, are nobodies. You just generalized the whole community as nobodies. So I guess when patches come out, because we don't have tournament experience and nationwide fame, we aren't fit to analyze them, by your logic of course. GG no re

 

[hype machine]

1. Kinda hard to understand when you form your sentences like that
2. This is whole Evo thing is SO we can learn about them in a competitive setting
3. Yes, nobodies in the community. Because the whole smash community not including players like Mew2King, Armada, are nobodies. You just generalized the whole community as nobodies

1.Yea I use a lot of sarcasm.
2.evo isn't a place to test them, it's not even a smash tournoment
3. These people you say who tested custom moves aren't reliable at all. People who know nothing about competitive play aren't reliable. Zero said customs shouldn't be at evo. His opinion is reliable. A 13 year old who plays with customs says they aren't broken is an unreliable opinion. You get it?

 

[Puszi]

I feel like no one would be against changing it from 2 stock to 3 stock. It's much more exciting as it creates more room for comebacks and clutches.

 

[Pazzo.]

Yes because nobodies in the community have been using custom moves since the beginning, and means we know all about them. We don't know anything about them we don't know what they look like in top level,

'Nobodies' like us have been using customs to analyze them.

I'm sure you can find plenty of matches on YouTube that use customs.

Besides, this isn't going to be some elitist argument. Just because some players got into Top 4 gives them no right to dictate how we enjoy the game.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

1.Yea I use a lot of sarcasm.
2.evo isn't a place to test them, it's not even a smash tournoment
3. These people you say who tested custom moves aren't reliable at all.

So **** the community then, as long as a couple of high profile smashers think customs are good then alls good

 

[Pazzo.]

1.Yea I use a lot of sarcasm.
2.evo isn't a place to test them, it's not even a smash tournoment
3. These people you say who tested custom moves aren't reliable at all. People who know nothing about competitive play aren't reliable. Zero said customs shouldn't be at evo. His opinion is reliable. A 13 year old who plays with customs says they aren't broken is an unreliable opinion. You get it?

@Thinkaman , @Amazing Ampharos .

Call them specifically unreliable.

 

[hype machine]

Zeros opinion ( person who understands the game more than anyone else) > 13 year olds who says he plays with custom moves and says they aren't broken.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Zeros opinion ( person who understands the game more than anyone else) > 13 year olds who says he plays with custom moves and says they aren't broken.

Good job at generalizing the community again bud
Taking sarcasm into account the community is composed of hundreds of thousands
There are people like @Thinkaman who may not have the renown of Zero, but still understand the game as well as he could
**** by your logic, if some uneducated (smash wise) 13 year old suddenly became the next Armada he should dictate how the community runs

 

[Pazzo.]

Zeros opinion ( person who understands the game more than anyone else) > 13 year olds who says he plays with custom moves and says they aren't broken.

13 year olds are not saying customs are fine.

If you're going to debate, you're going to have to be a big boy and use valid arguments.

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

Customs
2 Stocks
5 minutes


^ LOL

This is what happens when you sell out the passion of the Community for corporate greed.


I will never understand why Duck Hunt (stage) is legal. Like.... are you serious?

Also, "there's nothing random about these things happening" is probably the most fallacious arguement I've heard all day. Might as well make Wrecking Crew legal while you're at it, or even Kalos Pokemon League (though this stage is beautiful).

If you change a move of a character, you are transforming/altering an aspect of the role their design is supposed to play, essentially making them a totally different character; by changing the character with this, you also alter the MU entirely. I mean seriously....We already can counter-pick stages, now customs too?

This metagame will become far too "counter-happy" as opposed to trying to outplay the opponent with your wits and your general, overall skill.

Customs are fun, but not as standard tournaments. We may as well be playing Pokemon or Custom Robo.

Duck Hunt is legal because there's nothing in it that wasn't already in another legal stage. The ducks are reminiscent of the Shy Guys from Yoshi's Story/Island (Can't remember the exact name but the one from Melee), and the dog popping up and making a platform also relates to that stage with Randall the cloud moving around the sides. It's essentially like some of the Omega stages (Onett, Luigi's Mansion) where you're on a box, but just has little things sprinkled throughout like the ducks, dog, and tree platforms.

 

[hype machine]

13 year olds are not saying customs are fine.

If you're going to debate, you're going to have to be a big boy and use valid arguments.

Ok let replace 13 year olds with people who's opinions are unreliable.

 

[Pazzo.]

Ok let replace 13 year olds with people who's opinions are unreliable.

Like...?

You've yet to explain why we're unreliable.

 

[noahk777]

4 Stocks 8 Minutes. Please.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Ok let replace 13 year olds with people who's opinions are unreliable.

That still accounts for a small portion of the community, and it doesnt explain how everrrrrybody is unreliable
gen·er·al·ize
ˈjen(ə)rəˌlīz/
verb

1. 1.
   make general or broad statement by inferring from specific cases.

Just stop, your course of logic makes no sense

 

[hype machine]

Like...?

You've yet to explain why we're unreliable.

they are unreliable because saying we have been using custom moves and know they aren't broken isn't enough to say they aren't broken. We have to use custom moves a few times in major tournaments to know if they are really broken or not.

 

[Pazzo.]

they are unreliable because saying we have been using custom moves and know they aren't broken isn't enough to say they aren't broken. We have to use custom moves a few times in major tournaments to know if they are really broken or not.

Why?

Why do we need a few instances of customs in a highly situational environment to know they can't be exploited?

We're going to figure that out in the lab, not on the stage.

 

[hype machine]

That still accounts for a small portion of the community, and it doesnt explain how everrrrrybody is unreliable
gen·er·al·ize
ˈjen(ə)rəˌlīz/
verb

1. 1.
   make general or broad statement by inferring from specific cases.

Just stop, your course of logic makes no sense

Why is the opinion of the community of a game that is targeted for "13 year olds" greater than top level smash players who know what they are talking about.

 

[Elezir]

1.Yea I use a lot of sarcasm.
2.evo isn't a place to test them, it's not even a smash tournoment
3. These people you say who tested custom moves aren't reliable at all. People who know nothing about competitive play aren't reliable. Zero said customs shouldn't be at evo. His opinion is reliable. A 13 year old who plays with customs says they aren't broken is an unreliable opinion. You get it?

Zeros opinion ( person who understands the game more than anyone else) > 13 year olds who says he plays with custom moves and says they aren't broken.

Ok let replace 13 year olds with people who's opinions are unreliable.

Honestly, now you just sounds like a butthurt guy whom just ran out of arguments but has the need to continue your annoying whining, all while hiding in the shadow of a more prominient figure, hoping the "argument" of the "authority" will work, even though several have already counter-argumented against that.
That's just Zero's opinion, and an opinion is that: An opinion, not a rule everyone should agree and follow just 'cause.
Have you ever tested customs yourself before saying it's broken? If not you're just following someone blindly, and that's stupid.
Honestly, I think we should give it a chance before going all "Bann it oh my gosh!!11!!"
See how they work out in this tournament and how they will influence the ranks. Just that.
As I said in the Robin social thread, I think Sm4sh has too much potential and we need to explore that before ruling it out just because no one ever tried it.

 

[Sgt-Sol]

Ok, Lets see a MiiGunner vs Diddy Kong i think mi gunner is a diddy counter cause of range

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Why is the opinion of the community of a game that is targeted for "13 year olds" greater than top level smash players who know what they are talking about.

Just because a game is targeted towards a certain audience doesnt mean the community fits that demographic
You contradict yourself and prove and earlier point I made

 

[DunnoBro]

Zeros opinion ( person who understands the game more than anyone else) > 13 year olds who says he plays with custom moves and says they aren't broken.

Zero is a player who mains the character he believes should be banned.

I'd value his input, he's a superb player with a solid understanding of the game. But until his opinion is explained and quantified to show it is in line with those qualities, then his opinion is entirely irrelevant.

 

[Pazzo.]

I'm done debating this for now. The objections to customs are:

-Lacking evidence

-Highly opinionated

-Ignorant of customs in general.

I'll leave his here as my final peace:

So, many of us have been playing predominantly with customs for the last 4 months. Here's some facts, for better or for worse:

• Yes, most characters have 1 or 2 optimal movesets for most or all matchups.
• Customs are on average worse than defaults.
  • I prefer the default option to either custom 60% of the time.
• Thankfully, no custom is broken.
  • The very best customs options are not as dominating as some default options.
  • Still, Kong Cyclone and Timber Counter can be a big threat to players who don't understand them.
• Customs definitely benefit balance, but do not cause anyone to leapfrog Sheik or Diddy.

For comparison, here is my current opinions on character tiers with and without customs:
Naturally, any tier list is highly opinionated, so anyone will find things they disagree with. The point here is the big picture.

1v1, no customs, ordered within each level:








1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:








Moves up 4 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 2 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 1 tier relative to a no-customs list:

Note: We shouldn't discuss general tier opinions in this thread; Character Competitive Impressions is the place for that. I'm just copying this to try and give people with little custom moves experience an idea of what to expect.

Looking forward to EVO 2015!

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Blind sheep gonna blind sheep

 

[hype machine]

Honestly, now you just sounds like a butthurt guy whom just ran out of arguments but has the need to continue your annoying whining, all while hiding in the shadow of a more prominient figure, hoping the "argument" of the "authority" will work, even though several have already counter-argumented against that.
That's just Zero's opinion, and an opinion is that: An opinion, not a rule everyone should agree and follow just 'cause.
Have you ever tested customs yourself before saying it's broken? If not you're just following someone blindly, and that's stupid.
Honestly, I think we should give it a chance before going all "Bann it oh my gosh!!11!!"
See how they work out in this tournament and how they will influence the ranks. Just that.
As I said in the Robin social thread, I think Sm4sh has too much potential and we need to explore that before ruling it out just because no one ever tried it.

Here's the problem nobody knows for sure if they are broken or not. Evo isn't a place to test them. Zeros opinion is worth a lot because he's been a top smash player for years. I'm not butthurt I just don't want you guys to embarrass yourselves at evo and make us look bad.

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

Why is the opinion of the community of a game that is targeted for "13 year olds" greater than top level smash players who know what they are talking about.

Ffs, you do realize not everyone here is 13 right? I'm old enough to drink. Don't undermine peoples' opinions just because of their age or the fact that they're not what you'd consider 'pro players'. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Zero can dislike customs all he wants, but for every person against customs, there's a dozen or more people that want them legal. I want customs in because it'll diversify the character pool and possibly lead to Diddy counters. What's wrong with that?

 

[hype machine]

I think both sides of people who either support or unsupport customs are ignorant of customs. Which is why we shouldn't have customs at evo because we know nothing about them. We should take the safe route and show up strong at evo

 

[Shawn Michael Slaughter]

Here's the problem nobody knows for sure if they are broken or not. Evo isn't a place to test them. Zeros opinion is worth a lot because he's been a top smash player for years. I'm not butthurt I just don't want you guys to embarrass yourselves at evo and make us look bad.

There are several tournaments between now and Evo. There are weeklies like Xanadu that are going to make customs legal. Evo is not going to be the testing grounds for customs. That argument is invalid, and even if every other tournament until Evo doesn't allow customs, news flash, you can practice against them/with them on your own damn time. Y'know, like the top players already do to practice. There's plenty of time to see these custom move sets emerge and see whether they're broken or not.

 

[hype machine]

Lol to all the people who think I'm butt hurt I'm not. I don't hate custom moves, I just think evo is a bad time to test it out. I don't have any evidence that they are broken, but you guys don't have any evidence that they aren't broken. We should be safe about it

 

[moyshe]

I'm sorry, how do customs ruin everything you love about smash?
It was never that serious

When you enter the smash community you really quickly learn, no items, no time, no free for alls, no random stages, you settle things how they were meant to be settled. Your character, some stocks, a stage that doesnt get in your way, and you truly find out whos better. Like I said yesterday on here I see no difference between special smash and custom moves or items and custom moves. Literally every smash veteren I've talked to about this didn't believe me when I said that EVO might allow custom moves. Allowing custom moves not only kills the spirit of Smash and what it stands for but it just makes Smash 4 even bigger of a joke than it was seen as prior to this. Not just in front of other Smash communities but to the whole world.

There are several tournaments between now and Evo. There are weeklies like Xanadu that are going to make customs legal. Evo is not going to be the testing grounds for customs. That argument is invalid, and even if every other tournament until Evo doesn't allow customs, news flash, you can practice against them/with them on your own damn time. Y'know, like the top players already do to practice. There's plenty of time to see these custom move sets emerge and see whether they're broken or not.

Smash does not have the best rep especially Smash 4, and apparently has a community that is determined to ruin this game. Custom moves are embarassing to begin with but Xanadu is not a national, Zero and other top smash players are looking out for the community and the perception of the community. Evo is not the place for it.

 

[DunnoBro]

Lol to all the people who think I'm butt hurt I'm not. I don't hate custom moves, I just think evo is a bad time to test it out. I don't have any evidence that they are broken, but you guys don't have any evidence that they aren't broken. We should be safe about it

If you put the burden of proof on us, I'd gladly accept as Evo is the absolute best place to find out for sure if customs are broken or not.

With almost the exact same timeframe between sm4sh's release and apex 2015, and Custom's legality and evo 2015 (assuming they are in fact legal and other tourneys follow suit to practice for the bigger tournamnt) we should have two very equally developed metas that we can compare to each other.

 

[EpixAura]

I'm glad to see an active argument going on here with regards to customs, but the 5 minutes time limit is a much bigger issue.
If and when things go wrong, it won't be because customs were/weren't allowed. It will be because every player will be playing the clock. I mean, look at the Sheik dittos between Mr. R and Nietono at Apex. Despite them both playing rather aggressively (as far as Smash 4 goes), the games took a good 5 minutes. In fact, most matches not involving Diddy seemed to take about this long. This isn't going to shorten matches, and it will make things less interesting for the viewers, and much less fun for the players as well. This is a serious problem, and something needs to be done.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I've seen the discussion, salt and flames of this discussion! The horror...

But anyway, I'm going to bring an M-Rated game to express my point of view about customs: Mortal Kombat X.

One of the many new things in this games is the Fighter Variations system, which essentially works like SM4SH's custom moves, but with less customization. These variation can completely change how a character plays, despite the fact it only changes a small part of a kombattant's moveset. SM4SH's custom moves only changes how a specific move works, and while it does changes a few things about the character, 90% of its original gameplay is more or less the same. So if MKX's variations are eventually legalized, why wouldn't SM4SH's custom moves?
//---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TL;DR version: Mortal Kombat X has variations which make a character plays completely different. Would it be fair if these are allowed, but not SM4SH's customs?

 

[DunnoBro]

There seems to be a more universal consensus among competitive custom players that 3 stock is superior. Even players that don't think 3 stock is better for default.

3 stock 8 min is what I want, but I have no competitive experience to push it beyond objective reasoning.